DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.

[hahnmeister]

Okay, Red Dragons are nothing more than Laguna pumps (Hagen) made by Askioll, then with custom volutes and impellers. So... I was thinking...

What about DIYing one? They sell for $1000 on up if you get the Royal-Exclusiv, but Laguna pond pumps are much cheaper. Then use PVC to make a shroud... much like the 802/pimp my pump mod...
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=955274&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
So I suppose Im nominating myself for this, but I might hit the point where I need a CNC or something better than what I have.

The pumps are large, with screw on volutes/shrouds, so reproducing what Royal does shouldnt be that hard. Those out there with CNC machines (SPAZZ!!!) should have no trouble at all once they get their hands on a proper pump.

So the quest is on for a pump. Anyone know which Laguna pumps are the ones Royal Exclusiv uses?

I was looking at my Aquaclear 901, and thinking that it would be a potential candidate as well (Its even part of Laguna's pond pump line). It does 900+ gph with large 1"+ inlets/outlets and only something like 60 watts.
http://www.hagen.com/pdf/aquatic/AquaclearPH_110.pdf
Look at the manual for the 110 (aka 901 or 5000). Its the same as the larger pond pumps!

http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Utility_Pump_Guide.pdf

http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Powerjet-2000-3000-5000-7000.pdf

http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Water_Garden_Pump_Guide.pdf

Seems the 901 is the same as the Laguna Utility 4/WG 2000 (wonder what the 5,6, and 7 could do!).

[hsvtoolfool]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9693935#post9693935 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Okay, Red Dragons are nothing more than Laguna pumps (Hagen) made by Askioll...

Hmmm. I thought they made custom motors which was why
the RD are so expensive. Something about a one-of-a-kind
ultra-low-friction shaft or something.

Some creative wood-lathe work may be adequate to build a
pump volute. I have a small lathe, so I may have to experiment
with some spare acrylic or PVC chunks I saved. I've also toyed
with the idea of a belt-driven volute using a DC-motor for variable
speeds, but I like you idea better.

If you're CAD savvy and want some CNC'd plastics, you might try
E-Machine Shop (http://www.emachineshop.com). I've never tried them myself, but I keep them
in the back on my mind for more ambitious projects.

[hahnmeister]

Well they are semi-custom... they take the actual drive mechanism from Askoll and add their own volute, output, and impellers... but the electrical end of the pumps is all Askoll.

[hahnmeister]

Well, Im shocked more people arent interested in this idea.

http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/images/reddragon_o-ring_Sm.jpg

That part shouldnt be that hard to make at all ouf of PVC.

This is the pump I should end up with after modding the 901...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=646

OR rather, this pump, but Ill do a meshwheel instead...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=657

[Inflames]

Im interested in it. I think most people are under the impression that red dragons cant be duplicated because they have custom made parts. But you have shown that to be false so i'll be tagging along to see how this works out for you.

[Reef55]

It is a fantastic idea, and if I had a CNC I'd be all over helping.

[guido_kp]

im interested also. i dont think you would even absolutely have to have a cnc. the only part that looks like it would have to be machined is the o ring groove - and you could get away with a router table for that. the volute could be milled out with a forstner bit. i have found since i built my cnc, that sometimes its just as easy to do by hand rather than draw it in cad, toolpath it in cam, and machine the actual part.

[Stile2]

I am definately interested.

[hahnmeister]

The o-ring groove... yeah... thats the only hard part really. The rest should be easy to do with PVC... a prototype at least. Then once I get the final dimensions, I can have it CNC'ed out of something nicer maybe.

That makes me think... maybe I should have those volutes for the Aquaclear 801 CNCed as well... then I could run it external. 18-20scfh for a 20 watt pump isnt bad.

[douggiestyle]

is there a patrts break down available for the red dragon? im curious as to what changes they have over the hagen std unit, such as impeller size. i should post some pics of an interesting pump i have from johnson. its housing is similar to the red dragon and the impeller is about triple the size of a mag with the same wattage. the impeller is also some type of self contained contraption. i havent finneshed reverse engineering the thing. maybe i will get to it and post some pics.

[hahnmeister]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/Dreh1.jpg
finding some very nice pics over at zeovit.com's forums...
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229&page=36

[Stile2]

Hahn,
I tried to pm you but your mailbox is full.

Keith

[hahnmeister]

http://www.royal-exclusiv.de/forum/wbboard/misc2.php?action=download&attachmentid=108

As you can see, its a Laguna pump w/o a shroud. If you look at the actual pump block, where it attaches to the white BK plate, its the same outline as a 901.

So, that plate serves as an attachment point to the pump's stand, as well as a conversion point for where both the original Laguna volute screws, as well as new Red Dragon Volute screws can meet.

I was thinking it might be easier to make the O-ring groove into the plate rather than the volute. That volute might be tricky enough to duplicate as is w/o a CNC lathe.

Oh, BTW, the eventual plan here is not a needlewheel, but to make a Red Dragon Clone with a meshwheel/threadwheel.

[Inflames]

The plot thickens...

[TandN]

they are all made by R-E best of luck but there not laguna pumps

[douggiestyle]

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture082.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture081.jpg


notice the size of the volute when compared to a maxi 1200
also notice the impeller

Torque
@ rated load 78.5 mNm
@ max. efficiency 42.63 mNm
@ max. power 47.95 mNm

Speed
@ no load 3600 rpm
@ rated load 3600 rpm

Power
input @ no load 12.8 W
input @ rated load 42 W
output @ max. efficiency 16.22 W

sorry if this is getting off subject. but maybe this pump will give the desired results after modding with out constructing new valutes and such

[Inflames]

.

ugh stupid cant delete posts.

[andyjd]

Ok i'm interested

[hsvtoolfool]

A little surfing revealed that the axles in the Laguna pumps are
ceramic while RD makes a custom tungsten carbine axle which
is then highly polished to minimize friction.

I also learned that R-E is plauged with imitation RD pumps. The
fakes fail within a year. Beware too-good-to-be-true prices on
RD pumps!

[Stile2]

Didn't really want to post this on the thread but (and this offer is not available to everyone) your message box is full.

Hahn,

I have access to a CNC lathe and mill. It is two hours away, but given some time I would be willing to help out.

Keith

[servicky]

yea know i have a 3 axis cnc if i had a part i could duplicate it no problem.... or if i had come drawing or possibly cads or g code stuff i can do the rest because im not buying a friggin 700.00 pump unless its for my 10,000 gallon tank..

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9701540#post9701540 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tanya72806
they are all made by R-E best of luck but there not laguna pumps

And how do you think Royal-Exclusiv makes the actual copper-coil/motor business end of the pump? They dont. They are made by Askoll for Royal Exclusiv.

Askoll... hmm... who else do they make pumps for... HAGEN! Hagen makes Laguna. Its actually been discussed before... the heart of a Red Dragon is a Laguna/Hagen Pump. RE just attaches their volute and custom impeller/shaft system.

Well... Ive done that before...

Thanks to all who have offered CNC skills. It may come to that. I think I can get most of this done via my tools, at least a prototype or something with PVC. But for the final...

Also, thanks to onetrickpony for his offer of CNC skills.

Tomorrow, I will start cracking open the 901 I have, and I will post pics.

[quangtam7]

Here is one I am modifying, 1284 gph Laguna 3000 (utility 5), uses about 61-62 watts at 0'
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/quangtam7/hagen1-1.jpg

2.5" dia. 3 layer meshwheel, other impeller is maxijet's.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/quangtam7/Lgunapump.jpg

Back side of the impeller
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/quangtam7/meshimp.jpg

Intake
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/quangtam7/venturi1.jpghttp://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/quangtam7/Venturi2.jpg

This is how it looks like once finished.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/quangtam7/DSC01757.jpg

[hahnmeister]

quangtam7, hey, you beat me to it! Thats the same pump as a 901 really, just one size larger (I think its just a slightly larger impeller thats all).

What did you use for the shroud? Do you have pics of how you made it? It looks like you are building a Klaes skimmer... nice.

Some specs man!! Please. Is that the stock impeller, or how much did you mod it? How thick is that volute (and made from what?). Any preformance results yet?

[servicky]

awesome

[hahnmeister]

Cool... if I can end up making one cheap, the smallest RD NW pulls 1000lph, so mesh? 1200? That one only pulls 40watts though, so I and the next one up is 58 watts and does 2000lph about... I should be able to hit that. I should get at least that then. Thats pretty good considering I got those 5000/901/110 powerheads for $30 each (F&S has them for $50 each in case anyone else wants to jump in on the action).

[Horace]

Im def interested in seeing this progress. Unfortunately my skimmer cant handle the kind of air you guys are talking about (only 6" chamber on my 75g system). It is currently using a meshwheel modded Aquabee 2001 pulling ~20scfh.

[douggiestyle]

does it need to be a laguna pump? couldnt one mod any mag driven pump, danner et al? is the idea to just increase the volute size on a low wattage pump?

[hahnmeister]

You could use a Mag... I just dont know that its worth it. Mags are noisy, hot, and tend to consume alot of wattage... They do however have small volutes, cheap impellers, and the volutes are held on with screws, so a custom one may be possible.

I just think the best results are possible with the laguna/aquaclear 110, and they are pretty cheap to buy in the first place.

[douggiestyle]

so the idea is to increase the volute size on an inexpensive low wattage pump? thereby allowing an oversized mesh wheel?

[Stile2]

What about the water being pushed into the back side of the impeller? Can we manage that?

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9708652#post9708652 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
so the idea is to increase the volute size on an inexpensive low wattage pump? thereby allowing an oversized mesh wheel?

You got it. See, we just dont need a high wattage pump in the first place... most needlewheels that are say... 40 watts normally are only 23-25 when running as a needle/meshwheel.

I would imagine that this laguna/110 pump, only using 65 watts at most, would use something like 40-50 watts when modded.

Stile2, are you talking about the anti-calcification loop?

[Stile2]

Yup

[hahnmeister]

Well, the anti-calcification look seems to me like another solution that RE needs to overcome a problem that they created in the first place. When I start ripping apart the 110 this afternoon Ill show why in more detail, but the loop is really there to provide cooling around the magnet to prevent deposits. The reason for this 'forced loop' is because the custom impellers use a disk around the opening that blocks off a good deal of the flow that the stock laguna has going into this area. We do not have such a problem. Worst case, yeah, I can bore out a hole for 1/4" JG... shouldnt be too hard... done crazier modding before (like removing the front half of the magnet shroud on a MJ1200 to give it an open magnet chamber).

[pperez]

What's the formula for converting scfh to lp/m?

[Fluxion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9709129#post9709129 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pperez
What's the formula for converting scfh to lp/m?

If I read my book right ;)

Multiply by 0.47195

[Roadtoad]

1scfh=.472lpm

[pperez]

I found it on the net. Alot simpler to think about it is 1 lpm is equal to 2.118scfh

I used this table http://www.memflow.com/conversion.html

[Horace]

PLEASE make sure you guys are using the correct scale. We TYPICALLY do NOT talk about air flow in LPM (Liters Per Min). We talk about air flow in LPH( Liters Per Hour) and SCFH (Square Feet Per Hour). Most of our pumps dont pump many LPM. For example a 1000lph pump (very typical these days) is only 16.6 LPM. DO NOT CONFUSE THESE PLEASE :)

I went out and bought the wrong size air flow meter because everyone on this one thread were using LPM and I didnt check to be sure, and its way too big LOL.

[hahnmeister]

Lol... hey, there are eheims out there that are pullin in 16-18 lpm... but I agree, lph is the standard along with scfh. I use a fraction... 35scfh/1000lph. That way I can have a ratio that is easy to solve either way I want to convert. For instance, 18scfh>>> x1000 than divide by 35 = 514lph. Or, 800lph>> x35/1000 = 28scfh.

BubbleKings are rated in gph of air as well... this is confusing. Take the gph and multiply by 3.78 to get lph. A BK200 internal is rated at 264gph... so multiply by 3.78 = 997lph. Kinda low for the price, no? An eheim 1262 can burn that, and so can a ATI BM 200 with less wattage. But the BK300 internal... thats 528gph or 1996 lph of air! Thats a monster, but still, an ATI Bubblemaster 250 can get 1800 for less wattage and money.

[hahnmeister]

Okay, well, here are some pics of the 5000... the first gen of this pump (then 901, then 110). The internals on this one look different than last time I cracked one open... think that was a 901 though. Ill open up one of those later and double check.

Anyways...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod2.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod3.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod4.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod5.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod6.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod7.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod8.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod9.jpg

[hahnmeister]

quangtam7 must have lucked out and got a larger impeller with a disk on the impeller...
http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Utility_Pump_Guide.pdf
no matter... either one should be an easy conversion to a meshwheel.

quangtam7, can you give us more pics/specs how you did yours?

[hahnmeister]

This page provides a better look at the impellers... as they get bigger, the shaft doesnt need support at both ends, the disk around the impeller is used to hold the impeller in place...
http://www.azponds.com/submersible_pump_parts.htm#laguna_pump_parts

Gee... I wonder what other impellers have that disk thingy attached...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/POM3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/POM2.jpg
[img]

[smjtkj]

This is an awesome idea! If you remember way back when you were playing with the smaller aquaclears, I asked what you thought about this model! At the time you thought they were too inefficient. I am happy you decided to take a closer look! I am on board too!

Mike

[RandyStacyE]

Hahnmeister,

Maybe the shroud ‘seal’ could be accomplished using a simple gasket instead of an O-ring groove. It looks like you would have a HUGE sealing surface.

[hahnmeister]

Thats kinda what I was thinking. Then make a 1/4"-3/8" plate with that gasket like Royal does. The complication comes in then when we put the screws on... Something tells me that RE must just glue this plate to the pump for the best seal, then the plate is threaded for the larger volute to attach to that. Im thinking though that maybe with the DIY though, the plate should be screw-on, and then the volute is a fixed, attached part... and then, the volute cover is the removable part. That way, the gasket would seal the screws and the volute all in one, and the volute wouldnt need a seal... it would be bonded.

How would I make the volute cover removable? Well, look at quangtam7's volute closely... at the bottom you will see a bar-code... that tells me that his volute is actually a PVC fitting... maybe 3", maybe 4". Then, all I would have to do is hack up a cleanout adapter, and the removable lid would actually be a threaded cap... at least at first.

The other issue is startup direction and supporting the impeller. My version doesnt have that disk to hold the impeller in place like the larger ones... so Ill have to come up with some sort of shaft support... shouldnt be too hard.

Then there is startup direction... normally these pumps might spin both ways... how does RE get away with the volute which isnt symetric then? From what I remember though, these pumps start in on direction 90% of the time though... and once its running...

Heck, I could prolly chop up acrylic... I have cast 1/4" and 3/8", as well as 3" and 4" acrylic pipe, as well as acrylic pipe for the intake and outlets. That might be sick looking... a DIY Red Dragon with a Clear Volute. Actually... that might be pretty easy to do... Then I can see whats going on inside to optimize it further (take high-speed camera footage and look at the bubble behavior). Screw the removable volute idea...

[JCTewks]

i'm in...i'm going to try and get a pump this week. keep up the good work hahn!!!

[JCTewks]

what is the exact model of the pump you are using?? i see that on AZPonds they have the impellers with the disk on them....for th 5000, 7000, and 10000 pumps. should i buy the disked impeller seperate from the pump? or will a new pump come with the disk? i thought i saw a date of 7/98 on your pump hahn.

they also have the old version 5000 series pumps that shold have the disked impellers for 90 bucks
http://www.azponds.com/subpumps.htm

[Bishop]

Something to consider: It takes almost zero effort for Askoll to wind a custom stator to meet Royal-Exclusive's peak torque, wattage, and rpm requirements. Since they sell a niche market pump and charge a premium, they can afford to produce smaller quantities of specialty pumps. On the other hand, the tooling for the injection molded pieces typically start at 50,000 and rapidly go up. So it makes less sense to have Askoll (or third party) manufacture a custom housing for such a small quantity of pumps.

Hagen is producing a broader range product which larger market penetration to justify and make profitable their investment.

My point is simply: Just because they have the same manufacturer and have the same housing, in no way means they are the same pump.

Best of luck though, I would like to see you guys succeed. Lets see those dynamometer tests.

[hahnmeister]

It looks like the 5000, 7000, and 10,000 are the ones on that site that have the disk holding the impeller in place. Of the 'Utility Pump' Line, the disked impellers are the 5, 7, and 10. Of the Water Garden or WG pumps, it looks like they are the 3000, 5000, and 7000.

Hagen has some of the most confusing naming uses... their 'current line', which is usually nothing more than most of the old models recycled with new numbers and a few new added in, is shown here...
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=15900&N=62728+113361

As well as here...
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=13184&N=62728+113361

go figure. It seems like as long as you get one that is rated at 100 watts or larger, you will get the disk impeller. The best thing to do is compare with the user manuals, as they show the imlpellers rather well, and we know that anything that is at least the Utility Pump 6 or larger in output will have the disk impeller holder (we can see the shaft for the Utility 5 still needs support at both ends).
http://www.hagen.com/usa/ponds/manual.cfm

I dont know... its not that big a deal though. I was thinking a simple cross-brace in the center of the volute wouldnt be that bad really. I could even contour the fins of the cross brace to help direct air+water better over the impeller... like propeller blades or in a swirling shape to help water move to the outside of the volute better. I mean, whats the big deal... I can put a 1.5" intake on the pump while Im at it if needed.

The 6 is rated at 83 watts and about 1600gph though... thats a big pump. The good news is that that wattage should drop down to about 50-60 with modding... and this pump should get as high as 2000lph of air.

Its a shame Hagen doesnt make these pumps with threaded fittings... they would make excellent pumps for this hobby as is. Of the years I have used them, they are just as, if not quieter, than the eheims. I know... thats a bold statement... but look at them... that nice ceramic shaft, ceramic ends/shaft holders on the ends even (spacers I suppose), ceramic on the impeller... these things were meant to last.

Okay, so here's the comparison list...
Laguna Utility 4 = Aquaclear 5000/901/110 = WG 2000 = new Powerjet 900 (az and foster&smith) = new Max Flo 900
All move about 900gph with 63-65 watts.

Laguna Utility 5 = WG 3000 = Powerjet 3000 (az ponds) = new Powerjet 1300 = Powerjet 3000
72 watts and 1280gph

++++ from this point on up = disk supported impellers+++

Laguna Utility 6 = WG 5000 = Powerjet 5000
83watts, 1640gph

new Powerjet 1500 = new Max Flo 1500
100watts, 1500gph

new Powerjet 2000 = new Max Flo 2000
100watts, 2000gph


Laguna Utility 7 = Laguna WG 7000 = Powerjet 7000 = Powerjet (Skimmer pump) 2150
129w, 2142gph

new Powerjet 2400 = new Max Flo 2400
100watts, 2400gph

new Powerjet 2900 = new Max Flo 2900
130watts, 2900gph.. might as well be the 2905 but just a little different...

Powerjet (Skimmer pump) 2905 = Powerjet 10,000
137watts, 2905gph

new Max-Flo 4200
160watts, 4200gph
right up there with a Dart/Orca needlewheel wattage wise (or rather the 2905 is), but with a 4-5" diameter volute... based on the flow 'curve' of the other models, I bet this thing could do 4000+ lph of air if anyone is interested.

So perhaps the best disk supported pump to go after would be the Laguna Utility 6 = WG 5000 = Powerjet 5000 series... prolly find a bunch on clearance... azponds.com has them on sale for $82 each.

My guess is that the 901 series (65watts/900gph) should convert to this...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=655
Looks about right... 1000lph of air, 42watts as a needlewheel.

Then the utility 5 goes into something like this...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=656

Utility 6... http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=657
...thats right, a modded Laguna 6 can make 2000lph of air on a needlewheel... imagine what it could do as a meshwheel!!!



Utility 7...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=658
...thats right, a modded Laguna 7 can make 2500lph of air on a needlewheel... imagine what it could do as a meshwheel!!!

This would make sense since these pumps are about that old, and the newer pumps werent out then... so the RDs are most likely built around the utility pump 'era'.

Look at the impeller on this Red Dragon...
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=653
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/images/red-dragon-titanium.jpg
Looks alot like a Powerjet 7000 impeller...
http://www.azponds.com/submersible_pump_parts.htm#laguna_pump_parts
Wow... so I can take a $90 pump, make a new volute from some acrylic, Delrin, or PVC, and charge $1020! Oh, that and swap out the shaft from the ceramic to a nice alloy one.

Looks like I 'cracked the code' on that one.

Well, I should have a 'clone' done some time this weekend out of acrylic... the shroud at least.

[hahnmeister]

I do wonder what Royal Exclusiv does about the shaft support on the two smaller class pumps... I think all the Red Dragons use the 'disk support'... maybe they sub in an impeller from a the Laguna 6 series or something like that. I doubt it would be lucrative to machine custom disks and impeller parts for that... it would be easier just to make a support in the volute.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9713867#post9713867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bishop
Something to consider: It takes almost zero effort for Askoll to wind a custom stator to meet Royal-Exclusive's peak torque, wattage, and rpm requirements. Since they sell a niche market pump and charge a premium, they can afford to produce smaller quantities of specialty pumps. On the other hand, the tooling for the injection molded pieces typically start at 50,000 and rapidly go up. So it makes less sense to have Askoll (or third party) manufacture a custom housing for such a small quantity of pumps.

Hagen is producing a broader range product which larger market penetration to justify and make profitable their investment.

My point is simply: Just because they have the same manufacturer and have the same housing, in no way means they are the same pump.

Best of luck though, I would like to see you guys succeed. Lets see those dynamometer tests.

Thats a good point... but why would they need a custom stator? Seriously... Im asking. It seems that there are plenty of models in their stock line that would work, and then the impellers switch right over as well. Would there be a reason for why the stator would have to be custom?

On a side note: I wonder how hard it would be to call up Sicce and get them to just send the Tunze/ATI hydrofoamer/threadwheel pump OEM-style. I bet they are no more than $60 each this way. They make the whole pump there you know for Tunze/ATI (with the exception of the needlewheel/meshwheel perhaps).

[Tigger240]

hahn i was going to give you a rash of crap for this "absurd idea" but it looks like very phesable to diy a red dragon. i was like man, i kinda feel bad now. good luck to you, and im looking forward to seeing how your project works out. i can cad anything that you need, 2d or 3d in autocad, if it would help you in any way.

[hahnmeister]

Why would you give me a 'rash of crap'? Lol. No, seriously, I dont mind that you doubt... its not me you doubt, its the possibility to make a RD clone from a Laguna pump. What obstacles do/did you see?

Cool, thanks for the luck and CAD help. Im EE, we dont get to learn CAD and all that cool stuff that the ME and Civil guys get to... so Ill admit, Im CAD illiterate (well, not so much pure CAD, but some of the CNC stuff). Maybe mass-production? Lol.

You know, I know Klaus's biggest regret was that he never patented the bubble plate design... thats why others can use it/ copy it. I'll bet he never patented the Red Dragons either so selling conversion kits wouldnt be illegal. All it would be is a new impeller/ modded one, an alloy shaft, and the volute. Or at least, make the CAD/CNC code public so that anyone could make their own. Lol.

This must be why Klaus started making the Red Dragon 2 (DC) and Silver Dragon pumps... a new pump so he could patent it and nobody else could copy.

[Tigger240]

yea i did doubt that you could make a red dragon from a laguna pump. i just didnt think it was going to work out to be this way. you say red dragon, and think 1g and then its like its gotta be super hi-tec and its gotta have a flux capicitor somewhere. those red dragon 2's look awesome. i guess when i hit the lottery or something. i still think it would be a good idea to get exact measurements from someone who has a red dragon pump, to atleast give you a starting point of what to make, and sizes in stuff.

[drauka99]

also if you need some cad help (I am one of those Civil guys of which you speak, but actually learned cad doing mech stuff and rendering.) I can help.

[douggiestyle]

well thats pretty awesome hahn. i took that pump i have. the volute is 2" inside diameter. i used the gutter guard product. zip tied over the impeller, similar to your needle point mesh mod. assuming the specs on the pump are right, along with your obsevations on watts used vs air intake. im guessing about 15-20 watts. that thing made bubbles so small they litterally where microscopic. i have know idea what the air intake (lph) was. but i was using 1/4 water line with a 1/4" barb union pressed through the hose just before the pumps intake. the air it drew was minimal considdering the restraints BUT i could just about blow into the tube with all my might and the pump was able to handle the extra air. now the funny thing (and i believe you noted this in the mesh wheel thread) the water flow from the pump drop drasticly but what was coming out looked like shaving cream. unfortunately i lack the cammera to capture this. but this led me to understand the need for a diffuser at the bottom of the skimmer. at least when doing the shaving foam. it just didnt move around at all. came out and floated up. leaving the intire bottom half of the skimmer body clear (in comparison). so maybe changing out the 1/4" (with a barbed fitting so, the actual final id was about 1/16") with something more substantial would increase the air draw. i like this idea about DRASTICLY increasing the volute.

so here are some pics. i used the <A href="http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=769752&perpage=25&pagenumber=4">original</A> prugs 5 gallon jug skimmer that i built but never used.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture085.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture084.jpg

[hahnmeister]

Thats pretty good... the intake is almost as white as the output. You need to get an airflow meter on there to be sure. If the outlet is so slow that its like shaving cream... you might have too much restriction on the intake side of the pump... just a possibility. Like you said... impossible to know w/o actual readings and seeing in person.

But yeah... larger volutes, larger input and outputs are the key to better performing pumps. Look at Maxi-Jets, Mags, most external pumps, etc... they suck as needlewheels. The major problem with the AquaEuro skimmer pumps is the same... large needlewheel impeller... sure... but that means nothing since the pump's volute is barely larger than the impeller and the pump outlet is only 1/2" FPT.

Then, look at the 'big dogs'... Needlewheel Darts/ORCAs, Red Dragons, the new Tunze hydrofoamer, etc... they are all high-flow, low speed, low pressure pumps with large volutes and large outlets. Look at an eheim even... look at that volute... its 2.5" in diameter, and the outlet, well... if you sand out the threads and bond a union to the outside of the pump... its outlet is more than 1" in diameter. No wonder it can get up to 1800lph as a threadwheel. The larger volute allows for more air inside without the need for as much water flow.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/EheimMod.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/EheimMod2.jpg

[smjtkj]

Doug, which pump did you use? The PF4 mesh has shown to be a pretty substantial improvement over the gutter guard. Also, if you increase the air hose to 3/8 id, it will be a huge improvment.
Man you guys have me all amped over these pumps. I am thinking about trying one in place of the dart threadwheel I did.
I am thinking about using the 5000 or 7000.
Mike

[douggiestyle]

i used a johnson drain pump from a frigidaire dishwasher. magdrive. i was moved by its wattage, valute and intake/outake size. they are large due to the trash in the water. think small trash pump. and extra quiet. should see the bosch pumps, i dont think bosch builds them, it maybe askoll. askoll claims to build bosch pumps, may not build all of them. anyways very sweet. and supposed to be one of the most energy effcient pumps available. very very very quiet. ive been trying to track down the exact specs on the bosch pumps but cant get them. will post pics.

[douggiestyle]

well i was wrong <A href="http://www.sisme.it/lavastoviglie_eng.htm">sisme</A> builds the pump. its the one on the top right. but check out the bottom one. that could be really cool.

here are some pics with descriptions.
this is half the volute. notice the similarities to a tunze.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture089.jpg

the other half, showing the impeller.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture090.jpg

here is the impeller. notice the intake (center) its ducted.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture091.jpg

here is a side view of the impeller. you can see the blades.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture092.jpg

[douggiestyle]

sorry for the lousy camera

[hahnmeister]

Looks very cool. The spiral contours in the volute to help move the fluids around cant hurt either. When looking at some older H&S/Deltec eheims, and now on the inside of the Aquaclear, there is a small flap, or plate, sometimes employed at the outlet of the pump volute. Where the air/water mix would otherwise spin right past the outlet, there is a small ...aww, bugger... heres what Im talking about in a pic... the red thing!!

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/flowdirector.jpg

[quangtam7]

When have time I will take pictures of of the volute's parts and upload a video of it running. Man, air is freaking loud!!
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/quangtam7/diyrd.jpg

[douggiestyle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9721616#post9721616 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Looks very cool. The spiral contours in the volute to help move the fluids around cant hurt either. When looking at some older H&S/Deltec eheims, and now on the inside of the Aquaclear, there is a small flap, or plate, sometimes employed at the outlet of the pump volute. Where the air/water mix would otherwise spin right past the outlet, there is a small ...aww, bugger... heres what Im talking about in a pic... the red thing!!

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/flowdirector.jpg

ive removed the red thing from the mag9.5 that i use. it was rubber and would get bent in one direction. if i would shut the pump off and if the pump restarted in the opposite direction, the output would be less until the rubber thing got bent the other direction. this would drive me nuts with adjusting the overflow. so i removed it.

[spykes]

Red dragon has serveral features the hagen pump does not support. They have titanium shafts and no rubber bushings to stay centered. The lime bypass was also inserted. I'll take some pics of my BK400's impeller. Also like mag drive those 4 screw attachments needs to be bored out and the venturi on the BK is very diffrent in adjustment. I dunno if you can just make a RD pump. Even their regular RD has changed over a bit. My friend used my old titanium impeller for his RD pump. It didnt function like my RD skimmer pump did.

[spykes]

but this is really interesting never the less. i am looking foward to your results

[douggiestyle]

i noticed in the red dragon that the outtake is asymetrical in how it connects to the volute. would this mean that the pump is unidirectional?

[douggiestyle]

some thing ive noticed, why do 90% of all mods take place in the kitchen?

[hahnmeister]

douggiestyle, Im not sure how RE knows for sure, but the Aquaclear 901s do tend to start in the same direction 90% of the time. The larger pumps, if you look closely at the impellers, appear to be unidirectional as well.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9724065#post9724065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spykes
Red dragon has serveral features the hagen pump does not support. They have titanium shafts and no rubber bushings to stay centered. The lime bypass was also inserted. I'll take some pics of my BK400's impeller. Also like mag drive those 4 screw attachments needs to be bored out and the venturi on the BK is very diffrent in adjustment. I dunno if you can just make a RD pump. Even their regular RD has changed over a bit. My friend used my old titanium impeller for his RD pump. It didnt function like my RD skimmer pump did.

REAAAALLLLLYYYYY? You need to take a closer look then, because the Red Dragon pumps ARE Laguna pumps, in case you missed me saying that before. And while the smaller models have the ceramic+rubber shaft supports, the larger ones do not. The Red Dragons simply swap the ceramic shaft for the alloy one. The anti-lime port can be duplicated easily with a drill and some 1/4" JG fittings. The screw attachments CANT be bored out because UNLIKE mag drive pumps they are not plastic screws, but full machine screws with threaded nuts in the housing to mate with. The whole point of the mod is that the volute is being swapped out like how RE does it. If my machine screws arent done 100% the same, Im not too concerned. Otherwise, we would be trying to find red PVC right now... .:cool:

Sorry, but did you read everything in the thread before you posted? I covered all these topics already.

Well, I await your pics of the BK400s impeller. I do suspect that there are different impellers, and so one shaft will not fit all pumps... just like with the Lagunas.

[hahnmeister]

dp

[JCTewks]

where can i get blocks of pvc to turn the volute on a lathe?? also what about sheet pvc for the mounting plate?

[andyjd]

Interesting pics of the Eheim, I hope to use one on my Orca Skimmer

[douggiestyle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9724430#post9724430 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
where can i get blocks of pvc to turn the volute on a lathe?? also what about sheet pvc for the mounting plate?

was thinking the same thing.

usplastics should have it i will check........

they have in thier online catalog max 2"deep 10"x10" sheets. i dont think the volute would need to be more than 2" deep. hth

[BeanAnimal]

The Red Dragons simply swap the ceramic shaft for the alloy one.

I would not be so sure. As was mentioned, the housings may be the same, but it is very trivial to wind the motors differently. They may have even added poles to ensure that the motor always starts in the same direction and has more torque.

Most motor OEMS will happily wind to spec, the bobbins/armatures are wound by computer. It is trivial to change the number of turns or use a different pole piece.

[hsvtoolfool]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9724797#post9724797 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
was thinking the same thing.

usplastics should have it i will check........

they have in thier online catalog max 2"deep 10"x10" sheets. i dont think the volute would need to be more than 2" deep. hth

Forget sheet stock for lathe-work. USP has 1-foot PVC Rods (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=115&product%5Fid=11044) in
4", 5", and 6" diameters for $35, $80, and $120 respectively.
I also checked nylon, teflon, and acrylic prices but PVC is the
least expensive.

A 1-foot rod should permit you to turn at least 3 volutes and
perhaps 4. The only question now is how large diameter do you
want to try?

[JCTewks]

i would think a 4" OD volute would give you enough room for a 2.5-3" meshwheel. i don't have my pump yet so i am not sure how big a volute would fit on them. i am not sure wether to get a 5000, or 7000 pump. looking to make a 12-18" diameter skimmer.

how do you all think thes pumps will hold up to head pressure? could you put this on a skimmer with a 36" reaction chamber? if so, what pump would be best for that size skimmer. i wnat to get in on this action...just don't want to buy and mod 2 different pumps if i don't have to.

[JCTewks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9725180#post9725180 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hsvtoolfool
Forget sheet stock for lathe-work. USP has 1-foot PVC Rods (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=115&product%5Fid=11044) in
4", 5", and 6" diameters for $35, $80, and $120 respectively.
I also checked nylon, teflon, and acrylic prices but PVC is the
least expensive.

A 1-foot rod should permit you to turn at least 3 volutes and
perhaps 4. The only question now is how large diameter do you
want to try?


take a look at these...holow rod (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=115&product%5Fid=11002)

they are cheaper...and we don't need that pesky middle anyway :)

or we could try this...you could see whats going on inside this way
Clear pvc (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=54&product%5Fid=16628)
it's even cheaper!!!

[quangtam7]

Some older pictures that show how I attached the impeller housing to the pump.

http://www.dfwmas.org/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=29391

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9724810#post9724810 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
The Red Dragons simply swap the ceramic shaft for the alloy one.

I would not be so sure. As was mentioned, the housings may be the same, but it is very trivial to wind the motors differently. They may have even added poles to ensure that the motor always starts in the same direction and has more torque.

Most motor OEMS will happily wind to spec, the bobbins/armatures are wound by computer. It is trivial to change the number of turns or use a different pole piece.

Its true that it is POSSIBLE that Askoll makes these motors slightly differently than the ones they sell to Hagen, I dont know that its a big deal even if its true.

I was testing the 901/110/5000 today, and its impeller started the same direction 90%+ of the time. Something tells me that in water, it most likely starts all the time in the same direction. When I used a 901 for a MJ-Stream mod, I never needed a stopper.

As for the larger pumps, you can see that the impellers are the same as the RDs... and they are 'swirled' fins... indicating that they must spin the same direction every time. So the startup direction, at least with the 6-series on up, would be a non-issue.

You could be right though... the windings might be different... no doubt to conserve energy. Something tells me that the two smaller series (901 and utility 5) most likely arent used by RE because they have that double ended shaft and may not start 100% of the time in the same direction... while the 6 series on up doesnt have the full shaft or the direction problem... and none of the RDs seem to have the double ended shaft. So Laguna might take the disk supported impeller and wind it in to a smaller pump/lower wattage pump.

But in the end, what would it really add up to? I might end up with a Red Dragon meshwheel that uses 10% more electricity than the real deal or something... or will wear through the ceramic shaft every 2-3 years... Seriously, Im asking here... do you think it could actually mean that much? The direction of rotation seems to be controlled by the Lagunas as well... more torque though... why? A needlewheel would need less... except at startup maybe. If anything I could see less windings for less energy use. I wish quangtam7 had an air meter... his version may have just solved all our questions.

quangtam7, if possible, I would like to see the inside of the volute you made. I am interested in how you dealt with the machine screws that hold the stock volute to the pump. I picked up the 3" PVC cleanout adapter which I believe is also what you are using, but the holes line up to be right under the material. That could be a small hurdle.

[BeanAnimal]

Guys, lets step back here...

A centrifugal pumps wet end is an engineered chamber that is designed to work hand in hand with the torque curve of a given motor and a given engineered impeller. Yes folks, there is science behind how a pump works... pressure and veolicty and our friend Bernoulli.

It is one thing to mess around trying to get finer bubbles, it is another thing trying to get more flow or a higher effective head. Just making a "bigger volute" is like saying "lets toss these wings on that airplane and see what it does".

Just trying to keep things in perspective.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9724065#post9724065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spykes
Red dragon has serveral features the hagen pump does not support. They have titanium shafts and no rubber bushings to stay centered. The lime bypass was also inserted. I'll take some pics of my BK400's impeller. Also like mag drive those 4 screw attachments needs to be bored out and the venturi on the BK is very diffrent in adjustment. I dunno if you can just make a RD pump. Even their regular RD has changed over a bit. My friend used my old titanium impeller for his RD pump. It didnt function like my RD skimmer pump did.

REAAAALLLLLYYYYY? You need to take a closer look then, because the Red Dragon pumps ARE Laguna pumps, in case you missed me saying that before. And while the smaller models have the ceramic+rubber shaft supports, the larger ones do not. The Red Dragons simply swap the ceramic shaft for the alloy one. The anti-lime port can be duplicated easily with a drill and some 1/4" JG fittings. The screw attachments CANT be bored out because UNLIKE mag drive pumps they are not plastic screws, but full machine screws with threaded nuts in the housing to mate with. The whole point of the mod is that the volute is being swapped out.

Sorry, but did you read everything in the thread before you posted? I covered all these topics already.

[BeanAnimal]

Less windings does not mean less energy use :)

You want the pump at BEP (best operating point) for the target output. In other words, you match the motor, impeller and housing to the desired output parameters. They can work at the problem from many angles, but motor windings are easy to adjsut. Better motors have more, finer windings. They operate cooler and with more torque. Better motors have heavier formers that do not saturate as easily.

[spykes]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9724388#post9724388 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
REAAAALLLLLYYYYY? You need to take a closer look then, because the Red Dragon pumps ARE Laguna pumps, in case you missed me saying that before. And while the smaller models have the ceramic+rubber shaft supports, the larger ones do not. The Red Dragons simply swap the ceramic shaft for the alloy one. The anti-lime port can be duplicated easily with a drill and some 1/4" JG fittings. The screw attachments CANT be bored out because UNLIKE mag drive pumps they are not plastic screws, but full machine screws with threaded nuts in the housing to mate with. The whole point of the mod is that the volute is being swapped out like how RE does it. If my machine screws arent done 100% the same, Im not too concerned. Otherwise, we would be trying to find red PVC right now... .:cool:

Sorry, but did you read everything in the thread before you posted? I covered all these topics already.

Well, I await your pics of the BK400s impeller. I do suspect that there are different impellers, and so one shaft will not fit all pumps... just like with the Lagunas.

My RD supposely the same pump as my friends. Anyhow the problem with the aquaconnect was the amount of torque it needed. It doesnt start up properly. Even sometimes my RD doesnt start up properly. But i know what your doing. Im interested like i said. It's cool to see DIY stuff. i've ordered a 5000 and a 7000 myself to compare to my RD pump. hehe

[hahnmeister]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod3inchcleanout.jpg
Alright, above is the 3" cleanout adapter... its slightly larger than the 3" pipe, and it looks like what quangtam7 used on his. It has the right diameter, but when you see it from the inside, the screw ports are blocked. The little mounting nubs on the surface of the pump are cleared though and actually hold the the coupling right in place.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AC5000mod4inchcleanout.jpg
The 4" cleanout is made with a pipe size attachment instead, so its OD is just about 1/2" wider than the 3" cleanout. This one looks just too big on the pump though... and considering the real RD shrouds have a much thicker wall, I would imagine that this shroud would be too large. What might happen if the volute is too large of diameter? Well... volume of flow can go up... to a certain point... but you also start to lose pressure. The pump would be able to handle lots of air in its volute but not be able to get it anywhere very well. The 3" piece might be too much already. My concern is how to get around those two bottom machine screws then... I have to be able to get to them... or wait... do I... hmmm.... The holes for those two maching screws could be slotted, so that they could be screwed in, then slid down and then the other two can be screwed in...hmm...

[Bishop]

Bean: You're very close, you must first decide what sort of pump performance you desire. Use that information to compute the specific speed, a unit-less number. Using that you design the impeller, volute, and choose the appropriate driver (motor) which meets the performance characteristics spec'd in the beginning.

Pump design is that simple. On the other hand it is not a simplistic process.

[hahnmeister]

Here was my idea for the new volute...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/AquaclearRDflangepeg.jpg

[hsvtoolfool]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9725271#post9725271 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
take a look at these...holow rod (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=115&product%5Fid=11002)

they are cheaper...and we don't need that pesky middle anyway :)

I saw the hollow rods and they are cheaper, but you might as
well use PVC pipe from HD/Lowes instead. With any hollow
rod/pipe, a flat PVC piece must be glued on to create a closed
vessel . I'd rather create a solid piece on the lathe.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9725271#post9725271 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
or we could try this...you could see whats going on inside this way
Clear pvc (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=54&product%5Fid=16628)
it's even cheaper!!!

Although they are cheaper by the foot, they are sold in 10-foot
sections. Much more expensive.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9726291#post9726291 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bishop
Bean: You're very close, you must first decide what sort of pump performance you desire. Use that information to compute the specific speed, a unit-less number. Using that you design the impeller, volute, and choose the appropriate driver (motor) which meets the performance characteristics spec'd in the beginning.

Pump design is that simple. On the other hand it is not a simplistic process.

Yup... I was just trying to keep it "simple" instead of heavy in the science and math department. I do not design pumps, but have spent a LOT of time with pump curves and engineers... pumps from the little boogers we use to pumps rated in thousands of horsepower.

Bean

[douggiestyle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9726177#post9726177 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Guys, lets step back here...

A centrifugal pumps wet end is an engineered chamber that is designed to work hand in hand with the torque curve of a given motor and a given engineered impeller. Yes folks, there is science behind how a pump works... pressure and veolicty and our friend Bernoulli.

It is one thing to mess around trying to get finer bubbles, it is another thing trying to get more flow or a higher effective head. Just making a "bigger volute" is like saying "lets toss these wings on that airplane and see what it does".

Just trying to keep things in perspective.

couldnt agree and disagree more. but yes that is exactly what some airplane designers do/did and they come up with fantastic things. look at doolittles gee bee http://www.airracinghistory.freeola.com/images2/10.jpg there was no engineering there. just mount the smallest wing surface possible to the largest engine posible and leave it up to the pilot to figure out. ok, i know thats a bit out there, still....
bean we had this argument about reflectors. sure some are highly engineered and some are not. so there is the possibility that all they did was take a motor and put a huge volute on it. another analogy would be grab that truck engine, bore it out and slap it in that firebird. not a whole lot of engineering needed but it makes that firebird the fastest in the hood.

why a truck engine? (curious who knows).

[hahnmeister]

Well, most AC pumps in this category should be 1800rpm... the pumps shouldnt slip that much, right? Its not like were talking variable speed Red Dragon 2s here that could be anything from 1000-5000rpm.

My approach is that yes, the pump can be designed around the desired output, but Im thinking we can have the output determined by the pump that we have. Once I get a working version, I can manipulate the threadwheel diameter and thickness to bring the power factor back up to normal operating range, and enlarge the wheel until the wattage gets up to near stock as well. Thats how I did the Aquaclear 802 mod... I watched the power factor and wattage... kept going larger until the wattage and power factor lined up as much as possible with the stock pump at 20 watts... I ended up at 18 scfh/500lph... right up there with a H&S/Deltec/DAS Aquabee 2000. Look at the ATI threadwheel... a 40 watt pump (think it really runs at 23 watts as is), a large volute and plumbing, and it gets 1000lph with a threadwheel. That pump was not approved for that use, nor was it designed for it... and yet it works better than the Sicce approved, designed, and engineered version for Tunze.

By manipulating the thickness and diameter of the impeller/meshwheel/needlewheel, I can manipulate the speed of the pump as well. Im working in reverse, but who knows.

I did ask Klaus today. He sent me a PM about some other stuff, so I figured Id ask him how 'custom' the RD pumps are.

douggiestyle, why a truck engine? Well... thats what Dodge Vipers are. That V10, as well as most of the suspension and frame components on the original were dodge truck bin parts.

[pperez]

Klaus actually responded to your questions? That would seem odd since this is meant to duplicate one of his pumps.

Nice thread, keep up the good work!

[smjtkj]

Man, that last drawing with the acrylic flange is exactly what I drew out on paper. I drew out the template to cut the flange earlier today. I am going o do it with the Laguna Power Jet 5000.
I love experimenting with this stuff!
Mike

[quangtam7]

some pictures
Volute is ~3.5" id, can be reduced to 3" by inserting a short piece of 3" pvc pipe. Back 1/2" thick

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/quangtam7/rdvolute.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/quangtam7/rdvolute2.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/quangtam7/rdvolute3.jpg

[fewells]

The truck v10 and the viper v10 are 2 different monsters. the truck is all cast iron parts and the viper is aluminum. the engine in the rt10 is a viper engine.

Anyway.............This is an awesome idea. I am following along I have a bunch of ac 5000's laying around. I LOVE DIY

[RandyStacyE]

quangtam7, it looks like quite a bit of work went into that one.

What doesn't make sense to me is just how it attaches to the pump. I see in the 1st pic you have the 4 holes ... I assume that's how you bolt/screw it to the pump. Then in the 2nd pic I don't see any holes.

I wouldn't imagine you made this to where it couldn't be removed ... I'm sure I'm just not seeing it.

I can only figure that you made ‘like a flange’ and bolted it to the pump then glued the volute to that plate … but that would make it non-removable … well at least not without some effort.

So you made it so that the inlet plate unscrews from the volute?

[douggiestyle]

the truck version has thicker cylinder walls so you can bore it out more than the auto version. of course it would depend on the model year. i dont do this stuff, i just drink beer and watch my neighbor.

[quangtam7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9730398#post9730398 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RandyStacyE
quangtam7, it looks like quite a bit of work went into that one.

What doesn't make sense to me is just how it attaches to the pump. I see in the 1st pic you have the 4 holes ... I assume that's how you bolt/screw it to the pump. Then in the 2nd pic I don't see any holes.

I wouldn't imagine you made this to where it couldn't be removed ... I'm sure I'm just not seeing it.

I can only figure that you made ‘like a flange’ and bolted it to the pump then glued the volute to that plate … but that would make it non-removable … well at least not without some effort.

So you made it so that the inlet plate unscrews from the volute?
I guess that you missed the link above;) , here again http://www.dfwmas.org/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=29391

[RandyStacyE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9732711#post9732711 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by quangtam7
I guess that you missed the link above;) , here again http://www.dfwmas.org/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=29391

Thanks ... you're right ... I did miss it :)

Makes a lot more sense now.

[prugs]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9721343#post9721343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
here are some pics with descriptions.
this is half the volute. notice the similarities to a tunze.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture089.jpg

the other half, showing the impeller.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture090.jpg

here is the impeller. notice the intake (center) its ducted.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture091.jpg

here is a side view of the impeller. you can see the blades.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/douggiestyle/Picture092.jpg


I have a spare Poseidon PS2 that looks very simular on the inside. It's rated for 650gph at 3ft with 98watts. I'm going to make a venturi for it & stick an air & watt meter on it.
Anyone see any dissadvantage to an external pump?

[Stile2]

Can we use the Laguna 3000 pump external? BK has external versions are they the same pump?

[hahnmeister]

The original, first generation viper was not. It was a retuned V-10 truck engine out of cast iron.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9730022#post9730022 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fewells
The truck v10 and the viper v10 are 2 different monsters. the truck is all cast iron parts and the viper is aluminum. the engine in the rt10 is a viper engine.

Anyway.............This is an awesome idea. I am following along I have a bunch of ac 5000's laying around. I LOVE DIY

[hahnmeister]

Well, I hope Klaus doesnt mind me posting his PM to me here, but from the content, he really shouldnt.

"Dear Jon...
wow, nice Thread.... US-guys want make a RD-Clone ? The Red Dragon Motorblocks are not the Standart Laguna-Pumps. Askoll make for RE custom made motorblocks and change the Elektronic, the speed and the torque..... we dont using the Carbon/rubber bearings, we make self the bearings from Siliciumcarbid, the hardest bearing material... for skimmers you must have the Anti-Calzium-Line, when not this part, the pump is destroyed by airintake more as 1000 L/H . We changing the Ceramic-shaft to Wolframcarbide, this shaft is better as ceramic. Ceramic breakable by airintake more as 1000 L/h. The ceramic shaft dont can running fast dry...
It is not easy for make a RD-Copy. We are ordert mor as 1000 pices per order of this custommade Motorblocks....

best regards... Klaus"

[Inflames]

All that just to mix some air and water.

[douggiestyle]

me think bean as right when winding change was not same he said.

oh well, that doesnt mean something much better than stock can not be done.

[hahnmeister]

What does this mean for the DIY? Well... some things to watch out for... like wear on the ceramic shaft/supports, possibly getting a replacement for it, etc. While there are some features to the RD pumps that help it more resistant to breakdown, those features are there because the pumps are also running at a different speed (faster from that I gather) and torque. Our DIY versions may not have that problem because they wont be running at say... 3600 rpm... they will be running at 1800 (just a guess). So the anti-lime line and stronger shaft may not be problems. The features of the RD to make it more wear-resistant are only needed because of its own design drawbacks in a way... much like the Bubbleking skimmers: can you imagine a BK skimmer w/o a bubble plate? that skimmer would be a whirlpool... the single large pump on such a low and wide skimmer body is why the bubble plate is needed. If it were run with 4 smaller pumps, the bubble plate wouldnt be as big a deal.

How can a DIY compete then if we cant get as fast of pumps? I think thats going to be the challenge.

Im thinking diameter. The larger the diameter of the volute, the more potential throughput of air. Hey, look at the needlewheel dart/snapper... they didnt change the motor, and they got great results.

The actual speed of the impeller in rpm translates into different actual rotational speeds for the contents of the volute. If you have two volutes going 1800rpm, and one that is 2" in diameter, and the other 4", the speed of the contents of the volute at the outermost edge of the volute with the 4" diameter will be 2x that of the 2" diameter. So we may still be able to get the throughput we desire with the lower rpm speed as long as the pumps have enough torque. The torque will determine how large of an impeller we can run on the pump before it stalls/chatters. A smaller impeller on a larger volute will mean less head-handling capacity... so if we start placing this pump on a skimmer that is too tall, the water in the volute will slow down due to back-pressure.

Its just a big balancing act.

[ivgonmad]

I have an aquaclear 901, will this work and if so where should I look for info on the mod, this thread has gotten super hard to follow!!! :eek:

[Inflames]

You can do it Hahn. You just need some motivation. Here ya go..

http://www.empusa.net/xfl/features/pictures/week1/orlando_cheerleader_2-3-01.jpg

Do it for them hahn...dont let the girls down, they NEED a diy red dragon.

[quangtam7]

Here is the video of it in 55g tank, is so turbulent in 5 gallon bucket that I think I will need a diffuser in 8" skimmer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5tXbrvIseE

[hahnmeister]

Theres no way to know for sure w/o an air meter on there though... Ive been able to fill up the entire surface of a 40B (more surface area than a 55g) with bubbles from only a 12-18scfh pump, so the video, although it looks like alot of output, doesnt tell us how much of that is actually water, and how much is air. C'mon man... get a flow meter!
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/flow/SeriesRMPrice.cfm

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9740862#post9740862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
me think bean as right when winding change was not same he said.

oh well, that doesnt mean something much better than stock can not be done.

Hehe, why do you guys even bother doubting me... I rarely speak out of turn unless I know what I am talking about :)

[gman107]

which type or model # air meter would you recommend ???

[douggiestyle]

where are you coming up with the 3600 rpms and 1800 rpms. is there a spec that i missed someplace.

[blfuller123]

I dont know if I buy into using those materials that Klaus talks about. I am sure they dont hurt, but I dont know that they are required. Show me some real time use on these pumps and I might think a little different. Until then, I think you guys are on the right track.

[BeanAnimal]

Well a lot depends on the number of poles... But hans used the next logical AC motor speed.

In a nutshell...

There are 60 seconds in 1 minute...

Here in the US of A we have 60Hz power...That means the the sine wave crosses ZERO (2) times per second....

So 60 x 60 = 3600 x 2 = 7200 RPMS for a theoretical "single pole" motor.

A (2) pole motor would spin at 7200/2 = 3600 RPM no load (about 3450 after phase lag/slip)

A (4) pole motor would spin at 7200 / 4 = 1800 RPM no load (about 1725 after phase lag/slip) ahem... Power Factor

A (6) pole motor would spin at 7200/6 = 1200 no load (1050 loaded)

A (12) pole motor would spin at 7200/12 = 600 no load (think washing machine)

A (16) pole motor would spin at 7200/16 = 450 no load RPM (washing machings, and other heavy duty low RPM applications)

I leave it to you to figure out how we get AC motors that turn faster than 3600 RPM :D

[hahnmeister]

Convert to DC and fuhghetaboutit! Lol.

douggiestyle, Im just throwing those numbers out there as possible numbers. I dont know for sure, but they are very common.

[smjtkj]

So how are you progressing on the build Han? I am waiting on a powerjet 5000 and a max jet 2000 to mod. Do you have the volute built yet?

Mike

[BeanAnimal]

Yeah I am kinda waiting to see this myself...

Hurry hans, hurry. (wasn't that a cheesy line from die hard?)

[douggiestyle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9743227#post9743227 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Well a lot depends on the number of poles... But hans used the next logical AC motor speed.

In a nutshell...

There are 60 seconds in 1 minute...

Here in the US of A we have 60Hz power...That means the the sine wave crosses ZERO (2) times per second....

So 60 x 60 = 3600 x 2 = 7200 RPMS for a theoretical "single pole" motor.

A (2) pole motor would spin at 7200/2 = 3600 RPM no load (about 3450 after phase lag/slip)

A (4) pole motor would spin at 7200 / 4 = 1800 RPM no load (about 1725 after phase lag/slip) ahem... Power Factor

A (6) pole motor would spin at 7200/6 = 1200 no load (1050 loaded)

A (12) pole motor would spin at 7200/12 = 600 no load (think washing machine)

A (16) pole motor would spin at 7200/16 = 450 no load RPM (washing machings, and other heavy duty low RPM applications)

I leave it to you to figure out how we get AC motors that turn faster than 3600 RPM :D

thanks but, i understood that. that is why i was asking. my first impression would be that it is a 2 pole motor therefore running at 3600 rpm. im assuming that i am correct in stating, most of your brushless pumps used in the aquarium industry are 2 pole. though ive never taken apart the larger units.

[BeanAnimal]

Yeah I would imagine most are (2) pole... and I figured you knew how to derive base RPM. I posted so that others would have an idea what we were talking about :)

[drauka99]

thank u Bean for posting that tidbit of info, I wondered but wasn't concerned enough to ask.

[douggiestyle]

klaus states that as the lpm increases, the occuance of fowling on the shaft with calcium deposits increases. this makes sense. more air would cause more friction which would increase the temp of the shaft. but this could also be due to the design of their needle wheel not allowing enough water water to flow behind it.

[JCTewks]

i would think that fouling of the shaft would be a non-issue if yuo were to do a meshwheel that was not on a solid plate...on something looking like swiss cheese. That way water can easily get behind the impller to cool the pump body.

[GTR]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9748735#post9748735 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
i would think that fouling of the shaft would be a non-issue if yuo were to do a meshwheel that was not on a solid plate...on something looking like swiss cheese. That way water can easily get behind the impller to cool the pump body.

The plate blocks the impeller well and not the NW impeller itself. Having water forced through it is what keeps the pump maintenace free, anything else would just be passive cooling like all other pumps of this design on the market.

2-1/2 years later there's still nothing to clean in the RD while a couple of Mag drives continue to lime-up about twice a year. The cost difference may not be worth it to some but that's also why the RD is not a high-production pump at least here in the states.

SteveU

SteveU

[JCTewks]

if i am seeing the plate corrctly, it looks like there is an opening in it to allow water down into the impeller. am i wrong? it would seem that in the stock laguna pumps there is some sort of hole in the plat and a channel down to the impeller to allow for cooling. do we really need the shaft at all?? Mavgi(who helped start this whole mesh thing) says he doesn't use shafts in his pumps as they are only needed at start up anyway to keep the impeller centered. he says that the impeller spinning in the magnetic field will keep it centered once it is moving. Just a thought, yank the shaft and avoid all of the problems with fouling.

[douggiestyle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9749003#post9749003 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gtrestoration
The plate blocks the impeller well and not the NW impeller itself. Having water forced through it is what keeps the pump maintenace free, anything else would just be passive cooling like all other pumps of this design on the market.

2-1/2 years later there's still nothing to clean in the RD while a couple of Mag drives continue to lime-up about twice a year. The cost difference may not be worth it to some but that's also why the RD is not a high-production pump at least here in the states.

SteveU

SteveU

is the plate different on a rd than the laguna.

[hahnmeister]

If it comes to it, Ill drill the pump for a anti-lime hose. its not a big deal.

[JCTewks]

hahn...what do you think about going shaftless??

[hahnmeister]

not with these guys...

[JCTewks]

gotcha!! how would you know where to put a line to cool the pump in? i would be afraid i would drill right into the windings in the pump and totally screw it up.

[hahnmeister]

nah, you can feel it out pretty easily. Its easy to find the thin plastic parts where there is nothing in between the outside and the impeller area. I can show some pics later that might show how.

[hahnmeister]

Well, Ive been doing research... and waiting for my 5000 and 7000 Laguna pumps to arrive.

Klaus PMed me a pic of his new toy...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/HastelloyC22.jpg
http://www.meerwasserforum.com/thread.php?threadid=15261&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=0&page=15
The new 'loop wheel' is resistant to fragmenting like the threadwheel and enkamat material. My suggestion was to drill the backside of the plate that the loop material is bonded to, but as you can see... the new Red Dragon 2 and Silver Dragon pumps might have a potent new mixing impeller. More info on those pumps is in that meerwasser forum thread, but I think I saw Klaus mention that these things are doubling the performance from the BK300s he has designed them for. Wow... thats more output than a dart needlewheel then...

[glassbox-design]

it's about time a metal meshwheel was made. If Klaus goes ahead with these, I see no reason why he wouldnt, the new BK's are going to be very hard to beat. I only hope he can keep prices fairly close to the current BK's.

who's going to do this for the dart?

[hahnmeister]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9296838#post9296838

Already been done^^^

[mavgi]

those are different type of mesh someone wake up ....:lol:

this is approved that nothing can be better then mesh wheel impeller and you can see the picture on the BK in the post .

more then that when you put the mesh wheel on a DC pump and you can increase the speed of the pump (rpm) you will be able to get bigger air intake and amazing finest bubble .

so now we will see clone of ati pump....:lol: :rollface:

Flint&Eric :

there is nothing that you can't beat , wait when you will see the new BM300 :D

[JCTewks]

I know it seems like Klaus knows what he's doing (obviously). but it seems like that hunk of plastic the mesh is attached to would add quite a bit of weight to the impeller. seems like you could just use some sort of threaded "clutch" to hold the mesh and do away with the plate entirely. i'm not to sure how to describe what i'm thinking other than a clutch that holds the Hi-Hats on a drum kit. does that seem plausible Jon?

[hahnmeister]

Funny, thats exactly what I commented to Klaus as well. He attached the pic in a PM and asked me what I thought. I pointed out that I thought that the backside of that heavy looking disk might be better if drilled to let the air/water flow through as so many meshwheel designs do. The thickness of that disk would allow for holes to be drilled at an angle even to produce a propeller to suck in even more water/air. Either that, or the thickness/diameter of the wheel could be reduced.

But one of Klaus's big things is that the loop material is actually bonded to the plate, so it doesnt fragment over time like threadwheel material. Something tells me that he needs the bonding space.

Me personally, I would imagine an arbor system like ATI used in their Twister skimmers (before they came to us) with the eheim 1262 pumps to be the best. The center of the mesh was merely clamped in place by the arbor, and so water and air could flow through from just about any angle.

[hahnmeister]

Here are a couple pics of the ATI threadwheel for the 1262...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/65238mini-Picture_011.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/post-14-1162616793.jpg

[hahnmeister]

Although, I think in the end ATI added a plate as well...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/thread20wheel.jpg

[JCTewks]

YEAH...that is exactly what i was thinking. is there a real advantage to using a plate like we've all been doing. i would think the lower weight would allow for lower watts, ore more mesh. when are those pumps do in? the Mrs put me on lock from spending any money right now :( new baby coming in 6 weeks :) it's a good thing, jus tnot for the tanks.

I think if you could fit a 3 1/2" - 4" Volute on a 7000 with a 1 1/2"thick mesh wheel that's like 3" in diameter....you might just beat a RD!!! Just dream of 100+ SCFH out of under 100 watts!!

[JCTewks]

Is ATI using somethin layered like enkamat, or are they using a thicker product like Klaus?

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9814422#post9814422 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
Is ATI using somethin layered like enkamat, or are they using a thicker product like Klaus?

I don't know 100% what ati use :) but from my little knowledge they will surprise again and big time .... it's more then the enkmat


i know this material long time ago it's not new to me here is picture of it , to make a new thead on it ...... :crazy1:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/mesh_12.jpg

[JCTewks]

Michael...what is that stuff?? i'v been sitting here searching for the last hour looking for thicker open mesh to use on a large pump with no luck. thinking about something 1" - 1 1/2" thick. fairly open in structure, and durable as concrete :)

[JCTewks]

what do you think about the enkamat pf13?? it's 1" thick...polyester though....would that be not as durable?

PF13 (http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/4327/cid/1235)

[mavgi]

I try the PF13 and don't like it . it will be hard to mod and because it's thick you can't put more then one layer on standard impeller :

here is the picture PF13 :

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/IMGP2245.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/IMGP2244.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/IMGP2243.jpg

[JCTewks]

yeah it's thick...but thinkink of making a pad really thick for a large custom volute. what do you think the mesh that klaus is using to make the red dragon pumps. it looks pretty thick and dense. i think the really open structure and expandability of the enkamat would be its downfall in this application.

[mavgi]

they use in the same mesh (enkamat ) different type and shape .

the true is that they use in a strong motor that custom made for this pump .

if i am not wrong (i can't be sure 100% ) they also use it on a dc pump that allowed to increase the speed of the pump a lot and to pull a lot of air more then the standard pump this will increase the LPH a lot and the bubble will be very fine .

on regular pump the performance will be depend on the motor type , we can make the test but just after a test you can realy know if it's good or not .... for some pump it will work good and for other it's will reduce the performance .....

[hahnmeister]

No... its not enkamat... look in the meerwasser thread I linked to... most certainly not enkamat.

[Creetin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9814648#post9814648 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mavgi
I don't know 100% what ati use :) but from my little knowledge they will surprise again and big time .... it's more then the enkmat


i know this material long time ago it's not new to me here is picture of it , to make a new thead on it ...... :crazy1:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/mesh_12.jpg

I agree mavgi, ATI's new stuff will definately be eye opening. :)

[glassbox-design]

hahn, i was talking about with a tougher thread material like klaus is using. smtjk's skimmer is awsome though.

My uncle is in the pattern works/molding buisness and showed me some of the stuff they had there... let's just say mesh is the way of the future, there is some really cool mesh out there :)

eric

[onetrickpony]

This material looks very close to the BK mat
http://*******.com/yufler

This looks like an exact match
http://*******.com/24g8a4
http://*******.com/2gmry8

[slavearm]

I just ordered some samples. I will let you know.

[hahnmeister]

creetin, ATI? This is bubbleking material, not ATI.

[Klaus Jansen]

@Hahn...
the metallic-meshweel is the better as the plastic-meshweels. We testing the performance of this new wheels at the moment... so we can look, the meshwheels are better as needlewheels, or not. The Material on the picture is stainless Steel, we say V4A in Europe. In the future it is possible for make the meshwheels in HastelloyC or Titan wires. The wire from the metal wheel, was twisted 6 meters long and from a piece And... the BK-Skimmers are not more expensive... the same price.

Regards.. Klaus

[hahnmeister]

Im confused... "the BK skimmers are not more expensive... the same price." What are you referring to? Im confused...

Same price as ???

[Klaus Jansen]

@Hahn...
Needle-wheel or Titanium-Meshwheel.. the same price..:eek2:

regards...

[billyzbear]

This maybe off topic. I have been very interested in DIY skimmers and pumps. I had a quietone 4000 break on me after 3-4 years of use. They use 50w have 1" in and out. The disk is 1.63". I'm at work right now but I know there is enough room for atleast a 2" disk. I don't know if it has enough torque to spin a large disk. They do make a 4000HH.
Another pump and the mesh should be here soon and the testing begins.
With the mesh mod should I make holes in the disk to cut down on wieght?
Am I right with thinking, biggest disk with three layers of mesh?

Billy

[Konadog]

Klaus, I appreciate you adding to this thread, It can only help the skimmer industry as a whole! Your new "test" mesh wheel looks very interesting.

It looks to me as if the metal mesh wheel is a lot more dense than the plastic ones. Do you know if/how that also affects the air intake?

[douggiestyle]

it appears that the bk mesh wheel is held in place by a retaining ring. is this the norm?

[Klaus Jansen]

@Konadog...
the attachment of the metal wheels with a hole plate is tested. The perforated plate has thin needles, where the metal wheel is clean-pressed and tightened with a screw.

@Konadog...
first, i help myself..:D :D :D the metall meshwheels are many steps better, more stability and stronger as the plastic-mesh wheels.
Hahnmeister is right : we unite the new wheels with speedadjustable Red DragonII DC pumps and Standart Red Dragon Pumps...
the airintake i testing the new Metall wheels this weekend. We want look, what wheels are better. We have wheels with 15 - 20 and 25 gramms wight...

regards...

[hahnmeister]

Id love to know the comparative difference that the 'loopwheel' impellers have compared to the regular needlewheels.

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9818477#post9818477 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen
@Hahn...
the metallic-meshweel is the better as the plastic-meshweels. We testing the performance of this new wheels at the moment... so we can look, the meshwheels are better as needlewheels, or not. The Material on the picture is stainless Steel, we say V4A in Europe. In the future it is possible for make the meshwheels in HastelloyC or Titan wires. The wire from the metal wheel, was twisted 6 meters long and from a piece And... the BK-Skimmers are not more expensive... the same price.

Regards.. Klaus

Prove that , show to us in picture test result the different between metallic & plastic it will be very interesting to see it .

IMO flex mesh (there is also stiff stuff and good enough ) will preform better and the way it look i don't think it's give the best performance different layer will perform better .

when you able to play with the mesh and to create others shape the performance can changed and always there is option to get a better result.

it's also more easy to change it if it's damage and to keep skimmer working without any problem .


the mesh is better then needle wheel and of course when you able to control and change the speed of the pump RPM the bubble will be more fine and the pump will pull more air and it easy to tune it .

i also know that from a lot of test that i make on metal material to and i will be happy to see a better result.

[JCTewks]

Klaus, it's good to have you on this thread...it's nice to hear how the bigger companies like BK are playing around with stuff just the same as us in our kitchens:)

[dudedudedude]

Well, I took the plunge and got a few Laguna 5000 pumps discounted. PM, if your intersted in having the discount passed onto you. As you can see from the pictures these pumps are the same thing as the Red Dragons except for the custom volute and the other features mentioned by Klaus. From playing around with them so for they are exrtemely powerful yet quite. If mesh moded with a large volute the L/H will be insane at what i guess will be around 45 watts. Plus a shaft like the ones in the red dragon wont be hard to get made and the silicone carbide bearings can be purchased from aquaconnect.de. The first two images are of the actual Red Dragon, the rest the the laguna.


http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321106
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321128
The Laguna 5000
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321107
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321095
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321092
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321109
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321108

[dudedudedude]

Sorry guys, meant to show the pictures in the post rather than just links. What did I do wrong?

[RandyStacyE]

Just forgot to use the image tags.

[JCTewks]

didn't work...

[JCTewks]

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11523115874.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321107)

[dudedudedude]

Test
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321106 (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321106)

[RandyStacyE]

Just hit 'post reply' then click 'IMG' and paste the URL to the pic. Then the pic will be shown in your post.

[dudedudedude]

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321106

[rishma]

Klaus -

hastelloy seems a bit excessive for salt water service, but the ductility of titanium may be problem when trying to form loops with small radii.

You may find that a duplex 2205 or 2507 has the right mix of properties and is readily available in Europe. Certainly less money than hastelloy C.

The NiTiNOL family of alloys would be very interesting. It readily available in wire and can be heat treated to achieve a huge range of desired properties. Also has a great visual appearance.

Regards

[dudedudedude]

Guys, I give up, if anyone wants to fix my original post to have the pictures shown please do so.

[JCTewks]

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11523115861.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321106)

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11523243279.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321128)

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11523115874.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321107)

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11523080970.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321095)

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11523080893.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321092)

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11523115838.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321109)

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11523115859.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5321108)


Here you Go Dude

[JCTewks]

I'm wondering if the 5000 and 7000 have the same pump bodies with different impellers. just by looking at pictures they seem to be the same. If so, you can just buy the cheaper 5000 pump and go from there.

[hahnmeister]

Whaddya know... same impeller...

[dudedudedude]

Yup, the 5000 and 7000 are the same bodies, different impeller. The higher rated pumps have a larger body. Simular to the RD 4500 and RD 6000 having a smaller body then the higher rated RD pumps.

[JCTewks]

i bet the initialBK pumps that gained them all of their popularity were exactly what we are trying...just a modified volute and impeller on a standard laguna body. i don't really know if any perfmance would be gained in a different set of windings...maybe less watts, but i doubt that actual bubble production would be affected much.

[dudedudedude]

Although the windings may be different, I believe that with a thread wheel there will be less resistance compared to the stock impeller. Thus to achieve the low watt performance of a BK in a four pole pump, these pumps may also be run through a voltage regualtor to dial down the voltage to the point in which the potential is more enough to drive the impeller. It may just be possible to get an even greater LPH air to watt ratio than the current BK series by doing so. However, I am not an electrical engineer so I may be woring about this.

[quangtam7]

Check this old thread to see Laguna 7000 impeller.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067963

[Klaus Jansen]

@Jeff..
please look in the middle of the standart Laguna Impeller. You see a golden metallic-ring. That is a mixture from copper and brass and toxic for saltwater.

@Rishma..
very interesting posting.... so we testing last time all metallic alloys for search saltwaterresitant shafts for the new DC-Pump.
The Duplex-family are not free of corrosion. I dont now the word in english lenguage, in german we say : interkristalline Korrosion. We tested the Duplex-steal-shafts in my skimmer-test tank... In this tank is a high level of oxygene, and a little electricity. This mix is a horror for non corrosive stuffs...I foundet the best alloys for shafts : Wolframcarbide, Titanium, HastelloyC. Wolframcarbide is breakable, titanium is to soft und HastelloyC to expensive. Duplex is rusting in 2-3 days after beginning the test....the Duplex we can make more hardness by high temperaturs more as 800 Grad. In the future we using for the Red Dragon2-shafts Titanium and glued the Siliziumcarbid Bearings on the Titaniumshaft.
The meshwheels from Titanium is possible for make this. The wire is very thin. 0.1 to 0.2 mm and the cost are not so high..there are special machines, which can knit a network from a wire. The cost of a Titanium-meshwheel is 30.- Dollar and from HastelloyC 40-50.- Dollar...

regards...

[30mini]

Klaus, which duplex stainless steels are you running? Also, have you tried CW6M or even N7M? These may be a little higher in price, but the corrosive properties are a little less... Zirconium is an option, but you can't buy it for this kind of use. Also, check into Nitronics50, 17-4PH, and Ultimet. It could be worth it to find out which one would work the best, and corrodes the least/not at all.

[Creetin]

How do you disconnect the impellor from the ceramic shaft without breaking it.
I used a dab of silicone to seal up that copper brass ring klaus was talking about. But i would feel safer with it removed.
The cap is a pressure fitting and the only way i see it being able to remove it is snapping the shaft.

[dudedudedude]

Creetin, if your trying to put a different impeller on you need to with a dremel tool or on a lathe cut the white polyethylene down. Then once you are down to the brass cut the brass off gently. Any residual glue or metal could be dremeled off smooth or done on a lathe. Then with just the bare center ceramic shaft a new impeller can be mounted. I would take the route that Klaus took which is to have a precision machined, holowed out threaded piece of plastic that will fit over the now maked shaft from which different threaded impellers can be screwed on. The picture below of the new RD impeller shows the threaded piece I am trying to make.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11608463223.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5322754)

[dudedudedude]

Creetin, I think I realise now that you want to use the stock impeller. If that is the case I would work down the PE right around the pressure fitting so that you remive the impeller from the brass without taking too much of the center part of the impeller off. The impeller center could be cleaned up once detached and refitted to the naked ceramic shaft through different means. Personally I would just get a sheet of PE and heat weld a quater sized piece of it to the cleaned up impeller so that it could be drilled and threaded in the center, then attached to a threaded piece added to the ceramic shaft end as I previesly posted.

[Creetin]

Thanks!!! Do you have a pic of what you did?
Thanks again

[dudedudedude]

I have a mechanical engineer working on doing this for me on the side that has access to a mchine shop. Will post progress once work begins.

[JCTewks]

dude...i looks like in your pictures that there is a screw holding the turbines of the impeller to the shaft. does that not just come right out?

[dudedudedude]

It doesnt come off, it looks like a bolt but unfortunately it is actially a tesion clasp

[Klaus Jansen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9823277#post9823277 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 30mini
Klaus, which duplex stainless steels are you running? Also, have you tried CW6M or even N7M? These may be a little higher in price, but the corrosive properties are a little less... Zirconium is an option, but you can't buy it for this kind of use. Also, check into Nitronics50, 17-4PH, and Ultimet. It could be worth it to find out which one would work the best, and corrodes the least/not at all.

@30Mini...
we testing standart Duplex steels. Technical informations you can found here : http://www.goodfellow.com/csp/active/static/G/H.HTML


regards... Klaus

[spykes]

klaus if the meshwheel comes out for the reddragon is it possible for me to buy the head for my reddragon? skimmer pump 2250

[Creetin]

LOl well i broke the shaft and impellor. Damn, Thats a pretth big piece of brass in there. Luckaly i still have another pump, I will order a new impellor for the 5000. Not too bad at 22 bucks, But i wish they didnt use brass, Why couldnt they use stainless?
Or better yet let the damn thing come apart. You can't rip the old ceramic shaft out its one piece with the impellor.

I dunno if water will get to the brass if you seal the end up with silicone or superglue since the tension clasp is on the id of the impellor leaving only one face exposed, and if you seal that end with superglue it would make one end watertight. The tension clasp side is on there pretty damn tight!!

[Inflames]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9823535#post9823535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dudedudedude
Creetin, if your trying to put a different impeller on you need to with a dremel tool or on a lathe cut the white polyethylene down. Then once you are down to the brass cut the brass off gently. Any residual glue or metal could be dremeled off smooth or done on a lathe. Then with just the bare center ceramic shaft a new impeller can be mounted. I would take the route that Klaus took which is to have a precision machined, holowed out threaded piece of plastic that will fit over the now maked shaft from which different threaded impellers can be screwed on. The picture below of the new RD impeller shows the threaded piece I am trying to make.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/4/11608463223.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5322754)

Can you say "3M Roloc Bristle Disc"?

[Klaus Jansen]

@Creetin..
look the shaft-design from Red Dragon BK-Pumps... thats very hard for breakable this shafts... Ceramic-shafts for Skimmer-Pumps are not a good idea.....

@Spykes...
yes. thats possible....... are ready the development, we can give you the Metall-Meshwheels.... For the Modells BK 400 so it is possible change the motorblock to Brushless DC Pump in the future. So we hope, middle/end of this year, we can delivery the new Pumps with speedadjustable Meshwheels to USA...

@inflames..
no, we drilling the Needlewheels myself....
.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/Ultimax4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/Nadelradfrsen.jpg

[smjtkj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9825245#post9825245 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Creetin
LOl well i broke the shaft and impellor. Damn, Thats a pretth big piece of brass in there. Luckaly i still have another pump, I will order a new impellor for the 5000. Not too bad at 22 bucks, But i wish they didnt use brass, Why couldnt they use stainless?
Or better yet let the damn thing come apart. You can't rip the old ceramic shaft out its one piece with the impellor.

I dunno if water will get to the brass if you seal the end up with silicone or superglue since the tension clasp is on the id of the impellor leaving only one face exposed, and if you seal that end with superglue it would make one end watertight. The tension clasp side is on there pretty damn tight!!

If the shaft and impeller is broken already, why don't you break it apart to see if the under side is exposed. I have a feeling it is. The had no reason to seal it.
Mike

[Creetin]

I did and there is a flange on the aluminum spacer that seals one end and the outer end is exposed.
The brass insert is there for support i believe.

Anywho, I am not moddng for a skimmer pump, I hoped to use the 2905 for a circulation pump.

[Inflames]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/Ultimax4.jpg

I held the HIGH SCORE on that baby for 3 weeks!!

[landy]

I held the HIGH SCORE on that baby for 3 weeks!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[spykes]

any chance you can take a picture of the broken ares witht he brass?

[H20ENG]

Love the CNC Pics!!

Look Here (http://www.azponds.com/subpumps.htm#Lagunapump) at the 2905 model. Has a bigger outlet and some other goodies you can use elsewhere in the fishroom, like the strainer:)

[rishma]

KLAUS -
The superdupex 2507 has a very high pitting resistance (PREN =40), much higher than standard duplex 2205. We typically consider a PREN (pitting resistance equivalent) of >40 to be excellent for sea water applications. Duplex 2507 achieves excellent pitting resistance with substantially less alloy than hastelloy due to the addition of nitrogen. Nitrogen plays a strong role in pitting resistance without significant cost.

I suspect you bad experience was with duplex 2205.

[JCTewks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9832013#post9832013 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H20ENG
Love the CNC Pics!!

Look Here (http://www.azponds.com/subpumps.htm#Lagunapump) at the 2905 model. Has a bigger outlet and some other goodies you can use elsewhere in the fishroom, like the strainer:)

I believe that is a new version of the 10000 pump

[Klaus Jansen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9832768#post9832768 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rishma
KLAUS -
The superdupex 2507 has a very high pitting resistance (PREN =40), much higher than standard duplex 2205. We typically consider a PREN (pitting resistance equivalent) of >40 to be excellent for sea water applications. Duplex 2507 achieves excellent pitting resistance with substantially less alloy than hastelloy due to the addition of nitrogen. Nitrogen plays a strong role in pitting resistance without significant cost.

I suspect you bad experience was with duplex 2205.

@Rishma...
i dont now, what Number we tested of Duplex-Steel... it is possible, we testing Inconel, not Duplex.. an want search the old Invoice from Steel-samples....
i foundet technical informations here, and i want tested Duplex 2205 at next time. The Europe Name of this Material is 1.4462
http://www.firebirdmetals.com/swg.html
http://www.ice-australia.com/html/duplex___titanium.html

today i testing the metallic-Threadwheels... So we push up the airintake more as 3000 Liter/h (800 gallons) waterflow 6000 Liter/h (1600 gallons) and Energyconsuption 65 watts, with standart Red Dragon Bubble King Pump. I want make pictures next days... I think, this is the future. So we want see, how long, live the Meshwheels.... the material must be without iron, otherwise it rusts and destroys themselves. Seawater is a very, very problematic material. Or, the metallic-meshwheels are the only stuff, what i think for running many years, without problems.. Plastic-Meshwheels, i think, are to soft...

@Inflames...
i love the Hurco-CNC-Machines, where come from the United States.. Best quality and word the Money...

regards...

[Creetin]

Klaus the plastic holds up very well. If it needs to be replaced its very easy to do. Steel mesh i think will have start up problems with US voltage.
Looks promising though if they start up on US voltage.

[Klaus Jansen]

@Creetin...
start-up problems ?
the wires are very thin, (0,1 mm) thus they have only a very small weight. A Meshwheel from HastelloyC weigths 90 % less than PE needle wheel. We can testing the Pumps with US-Voltage, i have a inverter, he make identity US-Voltage 120Volt, 60 Hz.... no problems. Are we have restarting-problems, so it is possible, reduce the diameter of the Wheels from 60 mm (Europe) to 52 mm (USA) ... the HastelloyC-Wheels are very stabilty... at next time we testing Meshwheels from Duplex2205/2207, Titanium and Stainless Steel 1.4401/1.4403
We ordert next weeks the next samples. After testing time, so we send the new impellers to CaptiveOceans for the BK400 Owners....

regards...

[TandN]

Hey Klaus I have a 250 INT any chance of one to test on my tank ? PM me

[hahnmeister]

Klaus... 3000lph of air... is this on the same pump that with needlewheel did 1800lph of air?

[Klaus Jansen]

@Hahn..
yes... the same standart Bubble King Pump, not the DC-Pumps.... i changed only the Impeller and the nozzle. Pictures tomorrow..

@Tanya.. good idea. Thanks....

regards...

[Creetin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9833248#post9833248 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen
@Creetin...
start-up problems ?
the wires are very thin, (0,1 mm) thus they have only a very small weight. A Meshwheel from HastelloyC weigths 90 % less than PE needle wheel. We can testing the Pumps with US-Voltage, i have a inverter, he make identity US-Voltage 120Volt, 60 Hz.... no problems. Are we have restarting-problems, so it is possible, reduce the diameter of the Wheels from 60 mm (Europe) to 52 mm (USA) ... the HastelloyC-Wheels are very stabilty... at next time we testing Meshwheels from Duplex2205/2207, Titanium and Stainless Steel 1.4401/1.4403
We ordert next weeks the next samples. After testing time, so we send the new impellers to CaptiveOceans for the BK400 Owners....

regards...

I didn't know that, I think metal i think heavy.
Good to hear you have some nice material to use for meshwheel.

Also klaus do you buy your impellors preassembled, or do you mod them? Reason is i want that brass out. ;)
I have to 2905 and i want to use it a recirc pump.
Thanks.

[spykes]

can someone please take some pictures of the brass parts?

[Creetin]

It's inside the impellor. Theres an aluminum sleve that lines the id of the impellor and outside of the sleve is a nice sized brass fitting. What i don't understand is why its there. It must be there for structural reasons, But again why brass? Probably for it's anti corrosion properties from the copper, But i don't understand why not just use a stainless sleve and be done with it.
I had to pretty much destroy the impellor to get the brass fitting out. :(

[spykes]

so any idea on how to get the brass out? i mean on my RD the metal shaft is somehow stuck with the magnet. I have no idea how to get it out.

[Klaus Jansen]

@spykes..
what i say : ... custom-mades Impellers for RD-Pumps. We injektion-molding the Impellers self... The brass-ring Impellers is only for ponds, the Laguna pumps are made for Ponds, not for tanks. It is not possible for remove the Impellers from the Ceramicshaft..... yor destroyed the shaft....
Thats the delivery-status from the shafts, without the carbon-bearings and without the impellers...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/Keramikachsen1.jpg
We using Siliziumcarbide-bearings, the best and hardest bearingsmaterial for skimmers. The Pumps are running fast dry. It is very important to switch to onouther bearings... the standart carbon-bearings for Ponds, live max. 3-6 months...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/ReddRagon3-1.jpg

regards......

[asnatlas]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9836528#post9836528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen
@Hahn..
yes... the same standart Bubble King Pump, not the DC-Pumps.... i changed only the Impeller and the nozzle. Pictures tomorrow..

@Tanya.. good idea. Thanks....

regards...

As a current owner of a BK400EXT, would I be able able to get my hands on an "upgrade" ??

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9836528#post9836528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen
@Hahn..
yes... the same standart Bubble King Pump, not the DC-Pumps.... i changed only the Impeller and the nozzle. Pictures tomorrow..

@Tanya.. good idea. Thanks....

regards...

So the pump that normally did 1800lph of air with pinwheel was doing 3000lph with loopwheel? Im trying to figure out which pump it was that you started with to get 3000lph of air, and what that pump did with just the pinwheel.

[dudedudedude]

Klaus,
Did you measure the wattage between the needle wheel and the loop wheel in your BK300 test?

[hahnmeister]

Hmm.... modding the 5000 is looking pretty hard at this point... have to stick with the 901 it looks like. I wonder if the 7000 has this same brass sleeve? Or if the newere ones do as well...

Time to call Askoll and see what they can do... tell them I want to use the Laguna on a 'saltwater pond'...lol.

[JCTewks]

Hahn: Let us know how the conversation with Askoll goes :)

Klaus.: Is it possible to just buy an impeller from RE and go from there with our DIY?

[hahnmeister]

Sure... $500 for impeller!

[JCTewks]

so your saying the impeller is half the cost of the pump??? for that price i can live with the copper and run cuprisorb constantly LOL :)

[Creetin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9842472#post9842472 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
so your saying the impeller is half the cost of the pump??? for that price i can live with the copper and run cuprisorb constantly LOL :)

LOL For 500 bucks i can get 2 darts.
All i need is a 3/8 drill bit that will chew thru ceramic, and i can drill out the old shaft and install a stainless steel rod in there.

[spykes]

yeah appearently the impeller is half the cost lol. Azpond has already shipped out my 5000. I was wondering if we can seal it using PVC welding. the bottom where the bearing is has his plate made of plastic. If we seal the bottom the top is covered by a carbon bearing .

[dudedudedude]

You can get the non needle wheel RD 4500 impeller for 110 Euro from aquaconnect.de. Also, I wouldnt give up on the Laguna 5000, someone is going to be able to come up with a mod simular to RDs custom impellers.

[Creetin]

I wonder which pump company has a magnet the same size?
I know the ocean runners do not fit. ;)
They are pretty hefty mags on the laguna.

[Creetin]

Well i just ordered a new impellor assembly for the 5000.
There must be a way to mod them. I know i can seal off one end, The other end that has the flange just needs a bead of superglue around it and it is sealed off from water contact.
Might be the only way to go unless we do a group order for 100 impellors from ASKOLL. ;)

[smjtkj]

If you guys look at the newer max flo series of pumps by Laguna,
there are several sites that advertise these pumps as salt water
safe. I have the max flo 2400 coming in. I ordered it last week, so it should be here any day. It has 1.5 inch outputs too! This thing may be really easy to mod. It is a bigger pump than some may want though. 2400 gph at 100 watts is pretty darn good.

[Creetin]

Link please where it says saltwater safe.
TIA

[Creetin]

Can the pump come out of the basket?
I wonder if the 1500-2000 gph impellors for the maxflow will work for the 5000 or related pumps?

[dudedudedude]

If it is true that the 2400 is saltwater safe then I am pretty sure that a maxflow 2400 impeller which can be purchased at azpond will fit into a 5000 or 7000 given that all the impellers on the larger laguna pumps have the same greneral footprint with different size paddles.

[smjtkj]

Yes the pumps do come out within seconds! Different pump motors, may fit but I don't know!

[Creetin]

We need to find this out if it is truely saltwater safe, The guy at AZponds said its the same impellor, that there is no differeance, So that scares me if i order one that i will end up with one with another brass fitting. He doesnt see anywhere where its saltwater safe on any max flow.

[spykes]

im wondering if the carbon bearing top has any contact with the brass. if it's just at the end i can seal it off. If this looks like my RD pump then i think it's possible to seal

[smjtkj]

Maybe it will fit but they are a different part number. The max flo
uses a PT 461 and the 7000 uses a Pt 462. The 5000 uses a PT 460.

Mike

[Creetin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9844140#post9844140 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spykes
im wondering if the carbon bearing top has any contact with the brass. if it's just at the end i can seal it off. If this looks like my RD pump then i think it's possible to seal

No contact with the bearing, If there is any contact its with the spacer/tension clasp, and its very minimal. I wish i took a pic of mine when i had it destroyed, you all would see. The brass is incapsulated within the fan and the steel spacer/tension clasp.
One end is flanged on the bottom of the fan so it is blocked off from the back, and could be sealed in if glued in the back with glue, and the other is open on the face of the fan which could also be sealed in.
The part of the tension clasp i am now thinking its a 400 grade stainless now because it was very heard to get off the brass fitting. Initially i thought aluminum.

[Inflames]

I hope you pull it off because frankly, the prices for those pumps and skimmers is just obscene. They cater to a small group of people with a disposable income and if there's a way to get the same performance from cheaper pump then go for it. I think its laughable the prices they charge.

[hahnmeister]

So would that PT-459 impeller for a Max-Flo 1500 work with a utility 5000 pump?... thats what I wonder..

Or perhaps there are some other combos possible to swap out the newer impellers with the old ones. I am currently waiting on Laguna to get back to me on this one.

[smjtkj]

I don't think so Hahn. It shows the 460 for the 5000. The 459 is for the PJ 1500 and Max flo 1500.

[JCTewks]

I think if we go swapping impellers with other brands it will lose one of the big pluses of this pump...the lack of an upper shaft support. i would say if you found an impeller the right size from another company it prob wouldn't have the support plate around it and would need a shaft that goes clear through. Personally, if we could figure out a way to overcome the brass insirt with epoxy or something, that the ceramic shaft would be a non issue for me. even if i have to replace the impeller every 6 months to get the performance of a pump that is 10+ times the price...well that seems worth it to me. The impellers are only like $35...at that price you would have to go through about 30 impellers to start getting near the price of a RD. if an impeller lasts 6 months, thats 15 yrs. I'm pretty sure we'll all have found something better in 15 yrs and not even be using these anymore. Plus it gives you a chance to refine or upgrade your meshdesign every 6 months or so.

[hahnmeister]

Same brand, just newer models.

[JCTewks]

but are the newer models using impellers made differently? someone earlier said that they were all the same impeller. if you look at the laguna website they are different model numbers for the power jet and WG pumps. go to the AZ ponds site and they are selling all of the same model number for different pumps at different prices. I'm confused.

[hahnmeister]

Right, but there is a good chance that there is a new impeller that will mate exactly with the old ones. They look the same, just a different color or something. Even if they are not exact matches, it may be a bit like a maxi-jet pump... you can swap impellers freely between models.

[JCTewks]

but do you think they'll be saltwater safe? i'll see if i can get in contact with hagen or askoll and find something out. I'd rather not buy 10 different impellers to find out :)

[hahnmeister]

According to smjtkj above, the max-flo ones are saltwater safe. Im awaiting an email response from Hagen right now.

[smjtkj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9850788#post9850788 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
According to smjtkj above, the max-flo ones are saltwater safe. Im awaiting an email response from Hagen right now.
I am just going off what some web sites advertise! Here is one in Austrailia. The chart clearly shows the 9000 model and others
as saltwater safe and also in line compatible. The 9000 is the same as the 2400 and so on. Also, someone on ebay was selling one and was advertising that it was safe for fresh or salt water.

http://www.creativepumps.com.au/Pumps/laguna/laguna_max-flo_pumps.htm

[Creetin]

It only mentions a ceramic shaft, Please let us know when yours gets in if it had that brass collar in the impellor. You def can tell its there or not looking at the face of the fan.

[Creetin]

Ahh it was easier than i thought. LOL I just cut off all the blades then cut thu the center around the brass coupling, and right thru the plate and gently pryed off the fan itself leaving on the tension clasp. ;).
The fan is toast, But if youre mesh modding it anyways all you need to do is drill out a pvc/plastic/acrylig circle the same diameter as the old one and drill a bunch of holes on it.
Now I probably could have found a better means to attatch the acrylic ring around the impellor, But i just glued it in place, I'll see how it holds up. It needs a good rinsing, But notice the brass dust? ;)
Here ya go the mesh modded laguna 2905. LOL it should rip some air!!!
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/realcreetin/IMG_2290.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/realcreetin/IMG_2291.jpg

[hahnmeister]

Yeah, I wonder what even with the stock volute these things can do... the stock volutes on some of those larger pumps are pretty large in the first place.

Hook it up Creetin! LMK if you need me to send you a 10-100scfm meter! Do you have means of testing it? Test container, Kill-A-Watt, airflow meter...???

Which model did you mod there again?

[smjtkj]

Cool! So you just glued the ceramic shaft to the acrylic disc? Is there another ring or something holding the mounting plate to the ceramic shaft?

[smjtkj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9854566#post9854566 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Yeah, I wonder what even with the stock volute these things can do... the stock volutes on some of those larger pumps are pretty large in the first place.

Hook it up Creetin! LMK if you need me to send you a 10-100scfm meter! Do you have means of testing it? Test container, Kill-A-Watt, airflow meter...???

Which model did you mod there again?

Hahn, that is why I got the 2400 max flo model. It has a larger volute area that the rest of them and also has 1.5 inch input and outputs! I was hoping that the results would be good enough without a lot of fuss.