The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Insane Reefer]

No worries, Eshook, do it when you have a chance - just wanted to know if you had :)

I'm with you Angel - I learned my housekeeping skills from my mother, who was known for her lack of skills in that area. I try not to let it get to "filth", but "cluttered" is a common state around here.

[eshook]

I agree with both of you. A nice cluttered mess with stacks of 'stuff' is usually what I go for. Fortunately I always know where everything is. Unfortunately my wife disagrees with me ... :rollface:

We won't make the place look spotless, but you will at least be able to see a vacuum'ed floor. :lol:

In lighter news I bought pH tests and tested a rock I made 1 1/2 yrs ago and I think its cured/kured! I have another one that needs to be tested, but this is exciting because now I will have at least 2 rock pieces for my tank! In addition I found the Perlite so I can start making some Perlcrete!

As always I will post with updates.

[Insane Reefer]

So anyone making rock this weekend?

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10481257#post10481257 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
So anyone making rock this weekend?


OHHH YEAH!

[Insane Reefer]

Congrats on your commercial start, Neptune :D

[Salty Brother]

i just made another batch yestserday :D
and im pretty sure that the last batch that i made is almost cured.

[BrainBandAid]

Just a friendly word of advice, people:
If you happen to be kuring your rocks outside, and get the genius idea that a great way to get rid of that pesky woodchuck running amuck through your garden would be to dump about 40 gallons of kure water down it's little burrow, make sure there's nothing blocking your sprint to the front door when instead of a cute little woodchuck, a large, wet, pi$$ed off and tired looking skunk happens to surprise you instead.

Just a heads up.

[medic29]

LOL :D

[Insane Reefer]

Oh Jeez!
Wonder what the skunk was doing in the 'chucks hole, and looking tired to boot...
:eek1:
I've been known to drain kure water into mole holes - maybe I should stop...

Do you need some tomato juice?
:D

[BrainBandAid]

Luckily no... I screamed like a girl and RAN.

Of course I had to try it again a few days later... and out comes the woodchuck. ??? Comunal hole?
After a half dozen more water dumps, nuthin' comes out now. So keep tryin with the moles.

[eshook]

:lolspin:

That is the best thing I've heard all week. I bet you scared the crap of it as well. lol.

[jasonh]

Wow, I can't believe I'm at the end of the thread...almost makes me sad, lol. I've just spent the last week and a half reading all 131 pages of this thing, and I must say, I've learned a lot.

I'm going to make my first batch of rocks soon I think. I was at HD yesterday, and they have portland type I-II-V Low alkali (5 is sulphate resistant I think? Good for marine environments?), but I think I might want to try the Quickwall stuff. I would rather have white, and a quicker cure/kure is ok by me. Being in an apartment, it's pretty tough to do these DIY things sometimes. I would like to try the Jiffy Rock method, but I don't know if my wife would like that very much...

I am going to use Perlite as one aggregate. I'm not sure what else I'd like to use. I'm in the middle of the city, so finding a feed store is quite a drive. I'll eventually get to one to see if I can find some OS and/or calcium carbonate. I do have some lighter colored pool filter sand left over from some planted FW stuff (about 25lbs), but it's silica based, so I don't know about that. I haven't decided on if I'll use salt or not. It's really a great idea, but I don't know how easy the release would be in a little apartment.

great thread everybody, keep up the good work :)

[Insane Reefer]

Welcome to the thread, Jason!
If it helps, Travis was in a small apartment (with wife and rug-rats) when he made his first salted rock. Put something like an old pair of nylons/pantyhose in the bath-tub drain to prevent crap going down the drain helps, or you can go with the boiling route - I find with boiling that I can release the salt in 12 hours or so. But that was one bonus with using salt - at worst, if it doesn't all release upfront, it is just salt - just might mean we have to keep an eye on salinity for a while.

You're in Phoenix, man! You can't tell me there aren't half a dozen feed-stores within a stones throw of you, lol.
JK, but really, make the trip, you'll be happy for the oyster shell and calcium carb sand. Added to the perlite, it makes a great, porous rock.

The cement you've found sounds great. I've not tried the Jiffy Rock method with the fast set cements, as there isn't much point - the fast sets pH balance pretty much in the same time-frame as the Jiffy Rock (with traditional portland) does. If you do decide to try a batch of Jiffy Rock, PM me a email addy and I will send you the info. If you need an argument to sway your wife, tell her it will allow you to clean her oven spotless (and do so once the oven is cool to the touch!). The moisture loosens any baked on grime and it wipes away just like you used harsh chemicals.

Good luck, and keep us posted with what you do and post some pictures :)

[jasonh]

Insane Reefer, yeah I'm in Phoenix, but I'm more in the central/richer area, so a feed store is a bit of a drive....probably 45min one way. I just need a chance to get over there. I'm hoping to find something similar to the "hard shell" that was posted by someone earlier, especially if I end up using the white cement.

Anyway, I will try the Jiffy rock method if I go with the plain portland. If I use the quick setting stuff, I don't think there would be much of a reason to. While I was typing my last post, my wife looked over my shoulder and said she didn't care if I used the oven as long as I don't set fire to the place :)

As for the salt soaks...we only have one bathroom and I'd hate for that tub to be out of commission, so I still haven't decided. If I can find a cheap stock pot for a couple bucks, I'll use the salt and boil it out.

Also, I haven't seen any updates from the person using the "glass block mortar." I'm curious as to how that went. I saw this stuff in HD, and on the back there are some lengthy cautions about not putting it cured or uncured in waterways with plant or animal life, etc. That does not look like it would be a good solution :(

[Azazael13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10489482#post10489482 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh

As for the salt soaks...we only have one bathroom and I'd hate for that tub to be out of commission, so I still haven't decided. If I can find a cheap stock pot for a couple bucks, I'll use the salt and boil it out.

When I did my bake (yeah still need to send that IR ><) I went to the Family General Store (slightly nicer than a Dollar Store) and bought a big 12 qt pot. Cost me like $5 I think, which isn't too bad at all.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10489482#post10489482 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh
...so a feed store is a bit of a drive....probably 45min one way.
Living in a busy, but small city, I forget about urban commutes; if it takes more than 20 minutes to get someplace here, it is usually because some college student got into a wreck and snarled traffic.

I'm hoping to find something similar to the "hard shell" that was posted by someone earlier
Yeah, Sunkool found that. I've had chickens on and off for most of my life, and live in Missouri to boot, and I have never seen that stuff until he posted it. I've since called, and my 3 local (in city limits) feed stores were clueless.

While I was typing my last post, my wife looked over my shoulder and said she didn't care if I used the oven as long as I don't set fire to the place :)
Fire is not an issue, lol. You're no more likely to set fire to the place baking the rock then you are roasting a turkey. Plus, she gets a free oven cleaning - it is a win-win situation for her ;)

As for the salt soaks...we only have one bathroom and I'd hate for that tub to be out of commission, so I still haven't decided. If I can find a cheap stock pot for a couple bucks, I'll use the salt and boil it out.
Az's idea is probably the best, as far as time verses effort goes - though Salvation Army and Good Will are also places to look, or garage sales, if you do those.

Also, I haven't seen any updates from the person using the "glass block mortar." I'm curious as to how that went. I saw this stuff in HD, and on the back there are some lengthy cautions about not putting it cured or uncured in waterways with plant or animal life, etc. That does not look like it would be a good solution :(

Agreed - though it is possible their mix didn't have the cautions on the bag, not all products are made the same, but that is just another reason to stick with traditional portland (or fast setting) - we know it is safe.

I get all excited for you noobs; I remember what it was like the first time I made rock, and how excited, but nervous I was. :mixed:
And back when I made my first rock, the only online help there was were the old BBS's - I used Genie at the time. And people didn't sit on them like we tend to do with the forums. If you got stuck, it might be days before someone replied to the post. Ah - those were the days...

Anyhoo, have fun with it, and keep us posted on what you do :)

[Neptune777]

Just a FYI everyone.....I have found Quikrete Quickwall to be very brittle compared to plain old Portland Type I/II from Quikrete. I have not tried straight plain white Portland Type I although it is available locally (much more expensive than standard gray). Quikwall does not seem to like the rocksalt (even when mixed a bit dry) or other aggregates like CC. The end product is just too crumbly (weeks later) no matter how wet or dry the initial mix.....has anyone else experienced this?

I made a batch last night using gray Type I and man is this stuff strong!!!!!! Huge difference from the Quikwall .....It is in the oven right now for a fast cure/Kure.

[Yinepu]

I couldn't find the quikwall, but did find the quikrete hydraulic water stop.

So I made my first rock with it yesterday. It seems as hard as the regular portland (i mixed it 50/50 with oyster shell). I'll know for sure in a couple of days. So no problems there as far as I am concerned.

So I went ahead and made two more today. the first one will be ready for a soaking & ph test tuesday afternoon... so I'll let you know how it goes.. so far I like the way it looks, though it was a little crumbly when I was working with it (the first batch needed a biit more water).

the second batch I made today. I added a little more water and it was better to work with. it does set up FAST though... I don't think it even made it to the two minute mark!

[jasonh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10493916#post10493916 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Just a FYI everyone.....I have found Quikrete Quickwall to be very brittle compared to plain old Portland Type I/II from Quikrete. ... Quikwall does not seem to like the rocksalt (even when mixed a bit dry) or other aggregates like CC. The end product is just too crumbly (weeks later) no matter how wet or dry the initial mix.....has anyone else experienced this?


Well that is very disappointing to hear. I'm interested to hear if anyone else has had similar results with the quickwall...

[andbigdaddy2]

Not sure if this will work but i was at a LFS and they had some Feather rock that someone had drilled holes into and cut ledges and caves in to it looked pretty good it was way over priced a large piece was 80 bucks. A huge chunk of feather rock is like 6 bucks at HD. What i was thinking was get a piece sculpt it then use the salt and concrete method on the rock completely covering the rock the reason for this is less concrete = less curing time and you can make large custom rocks that weight almost nothing .

[Insane Reefer]

What is Feather Rock?

EDIT:
Ah - I see with google (I love you google!).

Volcanic rock is odd and can be risky. Some, that is considered "safe", has been found to grow nothing on it, even when placed in the ocean for several years - not even coralline. Others, have too many heavy metal's, etc, making them unsafe, esp for a reef/saltwater environment.

[andbigdaddy2]

Its a grey volcanic rock that is very lite its almost like holding a rock made of styrofaom http://www.kellermaterial.com/Feather_Rock.jpg

It's in the garden section of HD and Lowes

[Yinepu]

if it's what I am thinking of, it's lava rock... extremely light (hence the name "feather rock")

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10494742#post10494742 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andbigdaddy2
Its a grey volcanic rock that is very lite its almost like holding a rock made of styrofaom http://www.kellermaterial.com/Feather_Rock.jpg

It's in the garden section of HD and Lowes yup... that's what I was thinking of...

[andbigdaddy2]

Has anyone cut open a piece of DIY rock and seen if there is any life in the rock its self after being in a tank or are all the benifits on the surface as unlike real LR where life is all through the rock?

[jasonh]

If someone were to do this, I would just use styrofoam or great stuff instead. Easier to sculpt, etc, and less risky to the reef :)

[jasonh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10494799#post10494799 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andbigdaddy2
Has anyone cut open a piece of DIY rock and seen if there is any life in the rock its self after being in a tank or are all the benifits on the surface as unlike real LR where life is all through the rock?

I think a remember someone a couple splits ago doing this...IIRC, there was just as much life as real live rock

[andbigdaddy2]

if thats the case it wouldnt be a benefit to have a solid low weight core as it wont grow bacteria and small critters. So much for that.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10494799#post10494799 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andbigdaddy2
Has anyone cut open a piece of DIY rock and seen if there is any life in the rock its self after being in a tank or are all the benifits on the surface as unlike real LR where life is all through the rock?

I will now step upon my soap box............Wait...I think I hear applause....no it's just crickets: :)

IMO "Live Rock" is waaay overrated. Many of the macro organisms are dead upon arrival (questionably beneficial to begin with). What is most important is the bacteria that do all the dirty work in our reefs. DIY rock with the right porosity will have just as much good bacteria over time as "Live Rock" without introducing pests like aiptasia, majanos, red planaria, bryopsis, turf algae, etc. etc. etc....it goes on forever.

Personally.....IMO I think the reef industry (large "Live Rock" suppliers) perpetuate the "need" for rock out of the ocean because they can charge a premium for it and it funds the local economy where they reside (Fiji, Tonga etc.). There are only a few things I need in/on my rock that needs to be seeded from a small supply of ocean "live rock": 1) Bacteria....2)Pods.....3) corraline 'cause it's pretty....everything else is not needed in a captive reef (again IMO)......and they die off over time anyway because the captive reef does not contain all the needs of the the vast variety of organisms that hitchhike on "live rock".

The only caveat of using 90% DIY or base rock is you need to take more time to allow the tank to stabilize and mature.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10494810#post10494810 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh
If someone were to do this, I would just use styrofoam or great stuff instead. Easier to sculpt, etc, and less risky to the reef :)

Some.....again I say some not all....have experienced issues using styrofoam and great stuff because it breaks down over time in water. Also, making Portland cement rocks is a snap...couldn't be easier!

[andbigdaddy2]

While my question may have seemed slanted toward LR being better what i wanted to know was weather when cut open they were the same. So no need for the box your preaching to the choir.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10494896#post10494896 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andbigdaddy2
if thats the case it wouldnt be a benefit to have a solid low weight core as it wont grow bacteria and small critters. So much for that.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10419184#post10419184 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
That is the perk to using the fast set cements.

That is why I am so hip on trying the Calcium Chloride as an additive - turn portland into something that reacts more like a fast set.

I've not been able to find Bomix anywhere locally...


I have used Calcium Chloride in my latest batches using Peladow and the gray Type I/II portland cement. You only need 2% volume of calcium chloride in the mix (dissolved in water) to be effective at speeding up the cure by 2/3. I will test the PH in a day or so after the salt release. I tried this on Quikwall but gave up because I didn't like the results of Quikwall.....as I mentioned earlier.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10495031#post10495031 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andbigdaddy2
While my question may have seemed slanted toward LR being better what i wanted to know was weather when cut open they were the same. So no need for the box your preaching to the choir.


No it will not look the same on a macro level because the animals you are looking for were never introduced to begin with. On a microscopic level I would bet that they are very similar.

By the way.....I was just joking earlier about being on a soap box......Capiche?

[salty joe]

Somewhere on this thread I saw a picture of a bag of Custom Building brand grout. This grout has a fungicide or moldicide or something to deter mold & mildew. Also, who knows what is used to get different colors.

[sunkool]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/118997mini-bag1.JPG

Polyblend is reef safe. MSDS (http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/docs/msds/7200%20Polyblend%20Sanded%20Grout.pdf?user=pro&lang=en)

Here is a pick of a grout rock made in December. It was in my tank in 10 days of making it.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z247/sunkool/P1000943.jpg

Colors avalable.
I'd like to see rock made with lipstic #420 mixed with captians blue #387 to make a coraline purple color.

http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/images/PolyblendGroutOnline.jpg

[Yinepu]

nice rock, where did you find the polyblend? Did you mix it with anything?

[Neptune777]

I want to go to school here:

http://www.jpjtechnologies.com/index.php

Looks like fun!

[impur]

I am considering using some perlite in the middle of my DIY rocks, and using white portland around it. I'd like some lighter rocks, some of the ones i made with grey cement are ridiculously heavy.

See any problems with this?

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10498918#post10498918 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by impur
I am considering using some perlite in the middle of my DIY rocks, and using white portland around it. I'd like some lighter rocks, some of the ones i made with grey cement are ridiculously heavy.

See any problems with this?

Not really.....Has anyone tried growing coral on a perlcrete rock yet? I have not had a chance to try it myself.

[impur]

Not that i've read. But the perlcrete will be covered by the portland cement/sand/OS mixture.

It might just be more of a pain in the arse than anything though...

[Insane Reefer]

Andbigdaddy2, what you are asking is hard to quantify. The clearest answer I think any of us can give you is, yes, the rock we make can harbor any organism that real life rock can, if the rock is exposed to an environment where it can pick-up those organisms.
However. for the most part, it is like comparing pears to oranges - most MMLR never goes anywhere near the ocean, and so is not able to pick up the plethora of organisms that can be found on real live rock. Real live rock, fresh from the ocean, is filthy with life, inside and out - but most of that life dies before any of us ever see it. But as Neptune noted, a lot of those organisms aren't necessarily beneficial, though I think the list of beneficial critters he listed needs to be expanded to include several worm types, but we all got what he was saying.
Aquaculture centers, like TBS, GARF or Gulf-View are dumping MMLR into the ocean and leaving it for 5-10 years before harvesting, so I'm sure you see, even when we go to the effort to seed with lots of quality rock, it will be a long, long time before it can truly compare with real LR, and like Neptune said (I think), in a captive system, the rock will never have a chance to get all the neat (or scary) stuff that you get when you pull it from the ocean. I know that sounds like an argument for not using MMLR, but it is the truth, plain and simple. On the upside, the organisms we really need, and do the most for our systems, replicate rather quickly, and the rock can become functional as a filter in just a few weeks.
If you are really interested, this article is an aquaculture study - it was done on MMLR (cement and mined terrestrial) that had been sitting in the ocean off the coast of Florida for quite a while, and it compares which types had the most life.
http://www.hccfl.edu/br/asprograms/aquaculture/files/F00CE52705F64671B8C98D0868BFB18F.pdf

Neptune, Did the rock setup faster with the Calcium Chloride? And was Peladow the brand? Where did you find it? And that Rock Making School does sound like fun - maybe they should add reef rock to their syllabus :D

Sunkool, since you have the supply and don't mind using colored grout, you should be the one to try mixing for color. :)
FYI, at one point, I was making coasters with colored grout, and I had a hard time with mixing for color - the grout blend I was using was nice and colorful when used as mixed, but if I tried to combine two colors, I often ended up with muddy colors.

Impur, perlite is hard to work with - imagine a busted bean-bag chair, and trying to get the beans back in - that would be what trying to put perlite into the center of a mmlr would be like. Just mix it in - I have honestly not had a problem with it "shedding" off - any normal flakes that fall off have enough weight that they do sink. Besides - if the worst case scenario happened, and for some reason the rock cracked, you'd have a perlite spill that would be a pain to clean up...

And no Neptune, I don't think anyone has tried growing coral on Percrete yet, lol - we've only just started playing with it, and the first piece I know of (Disco Dancing Rock) has only been in a system for like two or three weeks now...
Algae is growing on it, so would be safe to say that the potential for coral to take to it is pretty high ;)

[andbigdaddy2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10498267#post10498267 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunkool
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/118997mini-bag1.JPG

Polyblend is reef safe. MSDS (http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/docs/msds/7200%20Polyblend%20Sanded%20Grout.pdf?user=pro&lang=en)

Here is a pick of a grout rock made in December. It was in my tank in 10 days of making it.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z247/sunkool/P1000943.jpg

Colors avalable.
I'd like to see rock made with lipstic #420 mixed with captians blue #387 to make a coraline purple color.

http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/images/PolyblendGroutOnline.jpg





Nice! Why do you think it had a shorter cure time 10 days is a lot less than others are saying for portland. When this product has portland in it.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10499421#post10499421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Andbigdaddy2, what you are asking is hard to quantify. The clearest answer I think any of us can give you is, yes, the rock we make can harbor any organism that real life rock can, if the rock is exposed to an environment where it can pick-up those organisms.
However. for the most part, it is like comparing pears to oranges - most MMLR never goes anywhere near the ocean, and so is not able to pick up the plethora of organisms that can be found on real live rock. Real live rock, fresh from the ocean, is filthy with life, inside and out - but most of that life dies before any of us ever see it. But as Neptune noted, a lot of those organisms aren't necessarily beneficial, though I think the list of beneficial critters he listed needs to be expanded to include several worm types, but we all got what he was saying.
Aquaculture centers, like TBS, GARF or Gulf-View are dumping MMLR into the ocean and leaving it for 5-10 years before harvesting, so I'm sure you see, even when we go to the effort to seed with lots of quality rock, it will be a long, long time before it can truly compare with real LR, and like Neptune said (I think), in a captive system, the rock will never have a chance to get all the neat (or scary) stuff that you get when you pull it from the ocean. I know that sounds like an argument for not using MMLR, but it is the truth, plain and simple. On the upside, the organisms we really need, and do the most for our systems, replicate rather quickly, and the rock can become functional as a filter in just a few weeks.
If you are really interested, this article is an aquaculture study - it was done on MMLR (cement and mined terrestrial) that had been sitting in the ocean off the coast of Florida for quite a while, and it compares which types had the most life.
http://www.hccfl.edu/br/asprograms/aquaculture/files/F00CE52705F64671B8C98D0868BFB18F.pdf

Neptune, Did the rock setup faster with the Calcium Chloride? And was Peladow the brand? Where did you find it? And that Rock Making School does sound like fun - maybe they should add reef rock to their syllabus :D

Sunkool, since you have the supply and don't mind using colored grout, you should be the one to try mixing for color. :)
FYI, at one point, I was making coasters with colored grout, and I had a hard time with mixing for color - the grout blend I was using was nice and colorful when used as mixed, but if I tried to combine two colors, I often ended up with muddy colors.

Impur, perlite is hard to work with - imagine a busted bean-bag chair, and trying to get the beans back in - that would be what trying to put perlite into the center of a mmlr would be like. Just mix it in - I have honestly not had a problem with it "shedding" off - any normal flakes that fall off have enough weight that they do sink. Besides - if the worst case scenario happened, and for some reason the rock cracked, you'd have a perlite spill that would be a pain to clean up...

And no Neptune, I don't think anyone has tried growing coral on Percrete yet, lol - we've only just started playing with it, and the first piece I know of (Disco Dancing Rock) has only been in a system for like two or three weeks now...
Algae is growing on it, so would be safe to say that the potential for coral to take to it is pretty high ;)

"But as Neptune noted, a lot of those organisms aren't necessarily beneficial, though I think the list of beneficial critters he listed needs to be expanded to include several worm types, but we all got what he was saying."

Although the worms might be beneficial....they are not "necessary". Same goes for Pods, corraline etc......show me a tank that does not survive without the presence of these items and then I will agree that they are needed to sustaine corals in captivity.

Peladow is a brand....it's a de-icer sold at HD, Lowes, Sams, Walmart etc...but tends to be seasonal. Yes the rock did set up faster. I am not convinced yet that this will cause a quicker drop in PH......tests will determine that. Check out Randy Holmes Farley's articles on Two-part Solutions (Ca Chloride is one of the Ingredients and he lists suppliers)


A simple perlcrete frag plug would be a good test....I know I mentioned using Pelite just a short while ago in this thread...:rolleyes: and I have not personally put any into a system (although I have made several pieces......) I am just not comfortable saying it is reef safe unless we pass this last test. Algae will grow on just about anything....corals are another story.

[Insane Reefer]

Neptune - that is a debate for another thread and another day.
Today is my wedding anniversary, and I am trying my best not to be contentious :D

So on the calcium front, you basically used your reef calcium to do the test pieces? I was thinking of that, but I have Kent Liquid Calcium, and am really unsure as to how to measure that for the right ratio...
:sad2:
So I think I will have to make a trip to ACE and buy some powdered Calcium Chloride.

EDIT: Opps - just saw that you used a commercial brand of de-icer - sorry - got confused with the mention of Two-Part, lol.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10499689#post10499689 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Neptune - that is a debate for another thread and another day.
Today is my wedding anniversary, and I am trying my best not to be contentious :D

So on the calcium front, you basically used your reef calcium to do the test pieces? I was thinking of that, but I have Kent Liquid Calcium, and am really unsure as to how to measure that for the right ratio...
:sad2:
So I think I will have to make a trip to ACE and buy some powdered Calcium Chloride.

EDIT: Opps - just saw that you used a commercial brand of de-icer - sorry - got confused with the mention of Two-Part, lol.


Happy anniversary!

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10499548#post10499548 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
A simple perlcrete frag plug would be a good test....
Algae will grow on just about anything....corals are another story.

Would something like this be an acceptable test subject?
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/frag-cones.jpg

What sort of corals did you have in mind? It could take a while for something like shrooms or polyps to start dividing on a new plug, though I'm pretty sure they will anchor just fine.
Encrusting corals, like star polyps would be a good test animal I'm thinking, but again, it usually takes mine about 3 or 4 weeks to start showing visible signs of attachment and new growth.

I have both shrooms and stars that I would be willing to use to test this, if you'd like. I could do the frags tomorrow, and then it will be a waiting game...

[sunkool]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10499427#post10499427 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andbigdaddy2
Nice! Why do you think it had a shorter cure time 10 days is a lot less than others are saying for portland. When this product has portland in it.

I did't test ph. Had no reason to. When you only put a small 2lb rock in a 125g with 45g sump it won't change the ph. I would not put more than that in the tank without testing. it did take the green star polyps about 6 weeks to attach and start spreading.

[andbigdaddy2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10500632#post10500632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunkool
I did't test ph. Had no reason to. When you only put a small 2lb rock in a 125g with 45g sump it won't change the ph. I would not put more than that in the tank without testing. it did take the green star polyps about 6 weeks to attach and start spreading.

Ok but why wait 10 days then did it take that long to dry?
How long would it take to cure? I got the impression it only takes 10 days. Will it take just as long as Portland?

[sunkool]

If you read the msds you will see that it is portland, sand and coloring. It would cure in the same time that all the rest.

[Insane Reefer]

I'm not sure - it is sort of hard to see, but it looks like the bag says "Polymer Fortified". If this is the case, that would likely put it in the "fast-set" category, and fast-sets usually are pH stable when they have finished curing - the bag should give a cure time on it (when it has finished hydration (max strength achieved) - I think a lot of fast sets say something like 3 days - not sure on grouts though). If that is the case, the rock was likely cured before putting it in the tank - much like Mr Wilson's fast set cement covered plumbing, and in that event, wouldn't have needed much, if any, in the way of kuring.
Polymer and epoxy fortified cements (and one would assume grouts too) tend to fall in the "waterproof" category - this doesn't mean it won't work (especially when aggregates other than sand are used), it just means that the cement itself won't tend to absorb water like traditional portland does (you know, like when it rains and the sidewalks turn dark and stay that way for a while - that is the cement absorbing the rain and holding it for a while). I think that absorption factor is part of the key to rock with high biological filtration capacity. I've not seen anything to substantiate this either way, but it is my opinion that the waterproof cements will work for biological filtration, but not nearly as well as the non-fortified portland does.

[jasonh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10504790#post10504790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I think that absorption factor is part of the key to rock with high biological filtration capacity. I've not seen anything to substantiate this either way, but it is my opinion that the waterproof cements will work for biological filtration, but not nearly as well as the non-fortified portland does.

While I have seen some tile grout that seems to "absorb" some water (turns dark when wet), I think I'm going to agree with you on this. Unfortunately we don't really know 100% if this absorption does in fact factor into biological filtration capacity...and somehow I don't know how we would ever figure this one out for sure....maybe make two rocks with equal size and shape, one out of plain portland, the other from the fast set, then seed them in the tank for a while. Then remove them and place them each in their own bucket full of water with equal amounts of nitrate, and see which one sucks up the nitrate fastest. Sounds like a lot of work to me :)

I am planning to use the perlite to hopefully open up some pores where this fast setting cement may have lost some. I'm my crazy head, it almost sounds like it would even out the equation.

Also, IR, where did you find your "blasting" sand? Is this something HD or Lowes would normally carry?

[Azazael13]

I finally had time to finish my testing and email IR, but my results were about the same as everyone else's, a PH of 9 after it was all done before the 2 week soak. So we can narrow the whole process down to what? 4 days now? If only we could grow coraline or get the diatoms out that fast we would be set!


(I am still lobbying for a death star IR :))

[eshook]

So I was thinking last night (As dangerous as that is ;o). If the Perlite is causing the rocks to float it would indicate that there exists air bubbles inside the Perlite. If this is so would this create a nitrate problem similar to the wet/dry bioballs? This would also reduce the available surface area for bacteria, because they will only grow in water.

This idea seems to have some logic behind it and if it does then would it be useful to some how force water into the Perlite before putting it in our rocks. Tonight I think I might pour some Perlite into a container of RO water and stir it up occasionally. It is my hope that some Perlite will sink and that will be the Perlite that I will put in my rock.

What does everyone think?

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10507642#post10507642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eshook
So I was thinking last night (As dangerous as that is ;o). If the Perlite is causing the rocks to float it would indicate that there exists air bubbles inside the Perlite. If this is so would this create a nitrate problem similar to the wet/dry bioballs? This would also reduce the available surface area for bacteria, because they will only grow in water.

This idea seems to have some logic behind it and if it does then would it be useful to some how force water into the Perlite before putting it in our rocks. Tonight I think I might pour some Perlite into a container of RO water and stir it up occasionally. It is my hope that some Perlite will sink and that will be the Perlite that I will put in my rock.

What does everyone think?

I think the air pockets in Perlite will do the opposite and reduce Nitrates. These will become anaerobic zones where denitrification can occur. Just like the pockets and pores in real rock. Bioballs produce nitrates because you are creating an environment for nitrifying bacteria to thrive (high surface area and high oxygen exchange).......you will have high surface area with Perlite but little to no oxgyen inside the rock in very short time. Two totally different reactions.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Neptune777 has that right. Even though the rocks float, they will eventually sink. After all, the perlite melted away because water got to them, then the water drained out and air went in, now as long as the perl-rock is in water, the air will eventually be forced back out and they will sink again.

[Azazael13]

who is this Travis person?!?!?!?!?!?

[Travis L. Stevens]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10508105#post10508105 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
who is this Travis person?!?!?!?!?!?
No joke, huh? :lmao: I purposely haven't read this thread since the last time I posted. It'll take too much time at work to get caught up. I'm in the process of getting internet set up at home (finally!). When I do, I'll spend the next few hours reading and replying from page 26 in the last thread split :D I think I'll have my work cut out for me.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10507989#post10507989 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I think the air pockets in Perlite will do the opposite and reduce Nitrates.


Ditto

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10508072#post10508072 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis L. Stevens
After all, the perlite melted away because water got to them, then the water drained out and air went in, now as long as the perl-rock is in water, the air will eventually be forced back out and they will sink again.

Hey Travis - nice to see you :p

But did I miss something? Who had perlite "melt" away? I certainly haven't, lol. The perlite stays in the Perlcrete.

I had to work at it to create a floating rock - but the rock that had marbles in it did indeed sink within 24 hours. Those pieces were not porous, and were packed very tightly, and because of the white cement, which can get really "slick", it has "sealed" the floating pieces pretty good. I think it has been close to two weeks and the remaining "Death Star" is still afloat...

I think it all comes down to pressure or something like it. Water will travel the path of least resistance - bubbles of trapped air could be hard to push through, increasing resistance. If there were enough pressure, the air might have a better chance of being pushed out of the perlite and then we might see the rocks that float, sink.

If that makes any sense?

[Travis L. Stevens]

Hmm.. See. I'm so far behind I think that I missed something. The Perlite is a silica based product that helps the rock Cure, correct? Isn't it either absorbed in to the rock or washed out and a void is left behind?

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10507394#post10507394 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh
While I have seen some tile grout that seems to "absorb" some water (turns dark when wet), I think I'm going to agree with you on this.
Good :)
I didn't mean my previous post, with the example of dark cement, to be only for cement - grout is, after all, portland and sand, premixed for convenience, so homeowners won't have to try to figure it out themselves. Nowadays, grout often has additives as well, to make it perform it's intended application better. Among these additives are polymers, epoxies, fungicides and mildew prohibitors. I too have seen grout absorb water, just like cement does - this would indicate to me that that brand of grout didn't have polymers in it, and was thus, not waterproof...

Unfortunately we don't really know 100% if this absorption does in fact factor into biological filtration capacity
True, not much has been done scientifically with live rock.

...and somehow I don't know how we would ever figure this one out for sure....

Actually, that might work and would be fairly easy to accomplish at home, but I think a more scientific approach would be by organism count - something applied to other fields by laboratories. Two groups of rocks - one made, as you said, of fast-set or waterproof cement and one with the traditional - several rocks each, made in a form so the rocks are as similar as possible. Put them all in the same tank - keeping each group separate from the other. After 2 months (the average time the hobby says it takes to cure live rock from the ocean), slice each rock in half, taking a slice from the middle. Under a microscope, take a tally of the bacteria found, and compare the two. Conclusions could then be theorized.

I am planning to use the perlite to hopefully open up some pores where this fast setting cement may have lost some. I'm my crazy head, it almost sounds like it would even out the equation.
Not crazy. Mixing in aggregates will loosen the matrix to the rock and allow more water to flow through it.

Also, IR, where did you find your "blasting" sand? Is this something HD or Lowes would normally carry?

Arg! I have no idea what your HD or Lowes might carry - mine never has any of the things that some of you report finding.
Like the $10.99 perlite - been to both stores, and neither has it. Same with Pulverized Limestone...

My Big Box Stores Blow. :mad2:

I found my sand at my local ACE Hardware. Somewhere in the thread I posted details like company and whatnot, but those details escape me at the moment - possibly a search under my user name for "blasting" or "blaster" would pull that up for you. I think this sand also has on the bag that is can be used as filtration sand, FWIW.
Or next time I go to ACE, I can get that info, but searching will get it for you sooner. A tip on it - sand blasting sand comes in different grain sizes - for casting into, look for the smallest grain size offered - the smaller the grain, the less noticeable surface sand will be once the rock is all done.

:)

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10508608#post10508608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis L. Stevens
Hmm.. See. I'm so far behind I think that I missed something. The Perlite is a silica based product that helps the rock Cure, correct? Isn't it either absorbed in to the rock or washed out and a void is left behind?

It is silica, and initial test pieces did all have suspiciously low pH's, though I doubt it is because of the perlite, which is glassy and inert - thus, to my knowledge, not something that would engender a chemical reaction such as micro-silica has been reputed to do. Michealalans preliminary experiments with micro-silica have been disappointing.


A perlite Recap for those who are just joining us...
Think of silica as being glass popcorn. The base rock is heated, and then at a certain point, pops, creating rips and pores and increasing the rocks' volume and giving it a structure much like Crushed Coral, at least in respect to them both being fairly open. The only reason CC doesn't float is that the base element of calcium is heavy - silica is fairly light-weight compared.

A TDS test read 0 (two different users tested), and placing it directly in undiluted Muriatic acid produced no reaction - the acid actually evaporated (shot glass) and the perlite is still there...

Perlite is simply something to use in place of crushed coral, or at least that is the idea. Everyone who sees the "Disco Dancing Rock" in person, says it looks the most like real rock, and in part that is because of the round shape of the perlite - round had been a hard aggregate shape to find, but is the more commonly seen texture shape in rock like Fiji.

It also weighs next to nothing - so people wanting to make large rocks without having a 75lbs rock, can do so, and have that same rock weigh maybe 50lbs.

It should be noted that if cast fairly dry and loose, like we try to do with the Ol' Skool type rock, this stuff becomes crazy porous. Crazy. As in "I can see how this would collect poop and cause problems", kind of crazy. I'm finding that by using a slight bit more cement, and making a slightly wetter slurry, as well as slightly compacting it, all make for a rock that is porous, without having as much potential to collect crap.

My best pieces, IMO, have been to a 1 ratio, sand, cement, perlite, oyster shell, and then add a little more cement, like a 1/4 part. You don't really need salt, but I suppose it could be added like it would be in Ol' Skool+ recipes.

For those going really cheap, 1sand, 2perlite, 1 cement makes a very interesting, almost weightless rock that does not float.

Care needs to be taken while curing this rock - perlite is fragile, and while the hydration completes, it can be more likely to break then traditional rock with traditional aggregates does. It seems to harden up just fine though.

That is all I can think of right now.
Does that catch you up some?

Anyone want to add anything?

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10507394#post10507394 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh
Also, IR, where did you find your "blasting" sand? Is this something HD or Lowes would normally carry?

Doing a bit of searching on google, and I found what I use, it is made by Unimin, and according to some posts on other boards, it might be available at HD.

I can't find a picture of the bag, and threw mine away a while ago, but I think it was a brown bag, with medium blue printing. Industrial Quartz.

[Azazael13]

Warning! Warning! I don't bother to resize pictures, click at your own risk :)

Set 2 Rock 1 (http://www.jedpadilla.com/fish/rocks/set_2-1.jpg)
Set 2 Rock 2 (http://www.jedpadilla.com/fish/rocks/set_2-2.jpg)

JiffyPopRocks 1! (http://www.jedpadilla.com/fish/rocks/jiffy_1.jpg)
JiffyPopRocks 2! (http://www.jedpadilla.com/fish/rocks/jiffy_2.jpg)

[Insane Reefer]

Nice Az :)
How would you say the "Set 2 rock" compares to the "Jiffy Rock"?
Talking terms of hardness, flaking, effort used to make the rock, etc.

Is it something you'd recommend?

[impur]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10509584#post10509584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
Warning! Warning! I don't bother to resize pictures, click at your own risk :)

Set 2 Rock 1 (http://www.jedpadilla.com/fish/rocks/set_2-1.jpg)
Set 2 Rock 2 (http://www.jedpadilla.com/fish/rocks/set_2-2.jpg)

JiffyPopRocks 1! (http://www.jedpadilla.com/fish/rocks/jiffy_1.jpg)
JiffyPopRocks 2! (http://www.jedpadilla.com/fish/rocks/jiffy_2.jpg)

Thanks for the pics! IMO the Rock 2 ones look better...


Also, IR, where did you find your "blasting" sand? Is this something HD or Lowes would normally carry?

I got 100lbs of white silica sandblasting sand at a local shop also. Open the yellow pages up to sand and gravel and start calling around. You'll track it down. 8 bucks for 100lbs, can't beat that!

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10509007#post10509007 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
It is silica, and initial test pieces did all have suspiciously low pH's, though I doubt it is because of the perlite, which is glassy and inert - thus, to my knowledge, not something that would engender a chemical reaction such as micro-silica has been reputed to do. Michealalans preliminary experiments with micro-silica have been disappointing.


A perlite Recap for those who are just joining us...
Think of silica as being glass popcorn. The base rock is heated, and then at a certain point, pops, creating rips and pores and increasing the rocks' volume and giving it a structure much like Crushed Coral, at least in respect to them both being fairly open. The only reason CC doesn't float is that the base element of calcium is heavy - silica is fairly light-weight compared.

A TDS test read 0 (two different users tested), and placing it directly in undiluted Muriatic acid produced no reaction - the acid actually evaporated (shot glass) and the perlite is still there...

Perlite is simply something to use in place of crushed coral, or at least that is the idea. Everyone who sees the "Disco Dancing Rock" in person, says it looks the most like real rock, and in part that is because of the round shape of the perlite - round had been a hard aggregate shape to find, but is the more commonly seen texture shape in rock like Fiji.

It also weighs next to nothing - so people wanting to make large rocks without having a 75lbs rock, can do so, and have that same rock weigh maybe 50lbs.

It should be noted that if cast fairly dry and loose, like we try to do with the Ol' Skool type rock, this stuff becomes crazy porous. Crazy. As in "I can see how this would collect poop and cause problems", kind of crazy. I'm finding that by using a slight bit more cement, and making a slightly wetter slurry, as well as slightly compacting it, all make for a rock that is porous, without having as much potential to collect crap.

My best pieces, IMO, have been to a 1 ratio, sand, cement, perlite, oyster shell, and then add a little more cement, like a 1/4 part. You don't really need salt, but I suppose it could be added like it would be in Ol' Skool+ recipes.

For those going really cheap, 1sand, 2perlite, 1 cement makes a very interesting, almost weightless rock that does not float.

Care needs to be taken while curing this rock - perlite is fragile, and while the hydration completes, it can be more likely to break then traditional rock with traditional aggregates does. It seems to harden up just fine though.

That is all I can think of right now.
Does that catch you up some?

Anyone want to add anything?


I really like using 2:1 ratio of Perlite to Type I/II Cement mixed a bit on the wet side. I don't add sand and I use the rock salt to cast with. I made a nice rock last night with this recipe using the Calcium Chloride. It is hard as nails today..and very light under water.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/117984DSCN0493.JPG

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/117984DSCN0495.JPG

[Insane Reefer]

Very, very nice Neptune!
Can you get a close-up/macro shot of the texture?

[Insane Reefer]

I was just going to try another shot at making my display piece for the 8g - I didn't get a chance to get dry calcium chloride.

Someone help me do the math for converting the liquid (10% solution) to the dry? I have Kent on hand and for a small batch, it can't be too much, but want to get close to the right ratio...

I'll be using 3 lbs of cement.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10510245#post10510245 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Very, very nice Neptune!
Can you get a close-up/macro shot of the texture?

Thanks! Here you go:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/117984DSCN0491-1.JPG

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/117984DSCN0492-1.JPG

[andbigdaddy2]

Hey for us just comming back or here for the first time whats the recipe and common cure \ kure time

[Insane Reefer]

Big Daddy, Curing will be the same, as rock made without perlite - that will be based on what you use cement-wise.

Kuring, well, that is another story. My first piece of perlcrete was baked, and had the typical pH of 9. 2 subsequent test pieces were not baked, nor have I gotten around to kuring them, so I haven't tested them yet. The "Death Stars" weren't kured, but were pH tested and at around 3 weeks of age had a pH of 8.5ish - however, this I think is due to the surface being "sealed" with a slightly slick surface, and it being virtually non-porous because of compression. The Frag Cones also haven't been kured, and I went ahead and did one with a baby shroom, and one with a bit of star polyps - once the batteries charge, will post a pic - these are in my display tank.

Neptune is planning on pH testing, and has a piece in works it looks like - he will have to tell us what he has found.

Neptunes recipe: 2:1 ratio of Perlite to Type I/II Cement mixed a bit on the wet side
My favorite recipe 1 (+ 1/4):1:1:1 cement: sand: oyster shell: perlite mixed slightly wetter then normal.

[Neptune777]

"Neptune is planning on pH testing, and has a piece in works it looks like - he will have to tell us what he has found."

Sure will! I will soak it in some water in the next day or so and see what she reads.

[Insane Reefer]

Someone help me do the math for converting the liquid calcium (10% solution) to the dry?
Please?

I have Kent on hand and for a small batch, it can't be too much, but want to get close to the right ratio...

I'll be using 3 lbs of cement.

[Neptune777]

Here is a cross section of the inside of the perlcrete rock to give some insight to porosity:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/117984DSCN0492-5.JPG

[andbigdaddy2]

Thanks for the info.
So are you casting them using salt or sand?
How long are you letting them sit before they are hard enough to remove from the casting material?

[Insane Reefer]

How is flow-through? The matrix seems a bit tight (but that could just be the tiny pic and old eyes and a 14" monitor :() - does water go through the rock?

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10510683#post10510683 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andbigdaddy2
Thanks for the info.
So are you casting them using salt or sand?
How long are you letting them sit before they are hard enough to remove from the casting material?


I cast the rock pictured using rock salt. It was made just 24hrs ago. I used Calcium chloride to speed up the set time.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10510695#post10510695 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
How is flow-through? The matrix seems a bit tight (but that could just be the tiny pic and old eyes and a 14" monitor :() - does water go through the rock?


Nice medium flow ...not too fast and not too slow. Water does soak in rather than just roll off.

[Insane Reefer]

Good - that was what I was looking for "Water does soak in rather than just roll off".
:)

I'm going to try going a little wetter still - mine still has water gushing through it due to a more open matrix, and I want to make that go away...

[andbigdaddy2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10510706#post10510706 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I cast the rock pictured using rock salt. It was made just 24hrs ago. I used Calcium chloride to speed up the set time.

Calcium chloride was added to the mix or to the salt and where did you pick some up?

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10510683#post10510683 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andbigdaddy2
Thanks for the info.
So are you casting them using salt or sand?
How long are you letting them sit before they are hard enough to remove from the casting material?

Sand - damp, almost wet, sand :)

If you are careful, you can generally remove it within 18-24 hours, using a method like archaeologists use, brushing way the sand to unearth the rock. It depends on what you cast though - thin stuff might break off if removed too early. If you aren't in a hurry, leave it in for 3 days or more.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10510804#post10510804 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andbigdaddy2
Calcium chloride was added the mix or to the salt and where did you pick some up?

It was dissolved in the water which was then added to the portland cement. I used Peladow name brand (it is a more pure calcium chloride compared to Dow Flake). Calcium Chloride is sold as a de-icer....it may be hard to come by this time of year in most areas. You can mail order it cheaply from here:

http://www.mainstreetseedandsupply.com/saltproducts.htm

[Insane Reefer]

I think it can also be gotten in the Pool section of most stores - I think it is a pool or spa chemical.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10510852#post10510852 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I think it can also be gotten in the Pool section of most stores - I think it is a pool or spa chemical.


I think you are correct.....but I have never looked myself.

[Insane Reefer]

Ok, I've even made it simple for you math geeks.

I need approx 1oz of Calcium for 3lbs of cement.

Math is not my strong point, but I think that means if the liquid solution is at 10%, then I would need 10oz of liquid Calcium?

Am I right or wrong?

[cayars]

Insane Reefer you're assume it's 2% by weight and not by volume which is incorrect. I'll run through the math for you based on weight so you'll be able to use this as a reference when you figure out the volume.

Going by weight it would be 0.96 oz of dry Calcium Chloride or roughly rounded to 1 oz.

You would want to use either Calcium Chloride Dihydrate or Anhydrous Calcium Chloride.

1 gram of Calcium Chloride Dihydrate will add 72 ppm of calcium to 1 gallon of water. 1 gram of Anhydrous Calcium Chloride will add 95 ppm of Calcium to 1 gallon of water. So if you use Anhydrous Calcium Chloride use 72/95ths of the 0.96 oz or 0.73 ounces.

Kent's Concentrated Liquid Calcium doesn't say if it's Dihydrate or Anhydrous but it doesn't matter because we know that 1ml (liquid measurement) per gallon of water will bring up the calcium by 26.42 ppm. So roughly 4 ml of this liquid is equal to 1 oz of powdered Calcium Chloride Dihydrate.

The PROBLEM however is that you don't mix it based on weight but by volume. I did the exercise above to show you how to figure out what you need ONCE you figure out the volume amount of Calcium you need to add.

In a nutshell you want to add 1/50th amount of dry calcium. So as soon as you figure out what the total volume of cement is your gold.

I make and sell aquacultured rock so I can't exactly give away the farm on my recipe but I can tell you I can cast the rock one day and add it to my tank the next day. Of course having roughly 1300 gallons is pretty forgiving but I've added over a ton of new rock this week alone in one of my 300 gallon outdoor ponds that's connected to my indoor reef system with little change in pH (maybe 0.15 at most).

Since you guys have caught on to the calcium it's only a matter of time before you figure the next part out so I'll give you a push in the right direction.

Think about a couple of key parameters you watch (or should) in your tank water. IE Calcium, Alkalinity, pH. These all play a key role in how your cement sets and hydrates.

Here's an example. My tap water is high in calcium and Mg (hard water) but my Alkalinity is 2 dKH with a pH of 9.5. This makes poor rock from the standpoint of kuring.

If I used the same water to poor a cement walkway it really wouldn't matter because once it's hard enough to walk on I'm good but for the hydration process and getting the alk and pH down in the rock it's huge.

If you have high pH in your tap you can lower it with many different acids include sulfuric acid which you can pick up at almost any LFS (API pH Down). A bottle of this will last a while. You of course can get it much cheaper if you know where to get it or you could use HCl (more potent) available at HD or Lowes. It's used to etch cement. The acids will lower both alk and pH. You can raise alk using either baking soda or washing soda (baked baking soda) depending on what you want to do to the pH.

Run with that and have fun.

Carlo

PS You would get much, much better results right off the bat if you used a cement designed for marine use. Type I/II is probably the worse cement in this regard because of the high pH. :)

[Insane Reefer]

Thanks for the reply Cayars :)
I'm going to chew on that for a bit - may I pm you if I have additional questions (that don't pertain to your recipe, specifically)?

I will ask this.
I remembered that I had some Bio-Calcium, several ounces in fact.
Could I use this instead? It is a calcium/bicarbonate supplement with minerals. It just says that it contains "Calcium Ions, hydrogencarbonate, and 70 trace minerals". I knew about Baking Soda for precipitating lime, so this could only help, but, and I know this will reveal the level of my chemistry ignorance, are calcium ions the same as what we want? Or will it work?
And I think we would all love to use marine cement, however that is really, really hard to find. I'm lucky to get white portland - marine cement isn't an option for most of us...
:(

[cayars]

Of course, worse case is I say I can't/won't answer something specific. I just don't want to give away specifics of how I do it because somebody could then come along and duplicate it without having went through years of experimenting. Of course as many of you know even having a specific recipe in hand doesn't produce the same rock as people tend to mix differently and the "artistic" way of laying the rock is different by each person. Some will make nice looking rock that's pretty porous and others will make slab rock. :)

I'll admit I've picked up a couple of tips here in this long, long thread so I feel I should give some info back.

With that said, I'm not familiar with Bio-Calcium so we will need to figure out the amount of calcium it contains per bottle and we can figure out the proper amount to use. Now weather the bicarbonate is good or not will depend mainly or your tap water alk level.

Generally speaking I'd say it will be fine to use (minerals won't matter much) if you alk isn't high from the tap. If it's high to begin with then I would use a calcium only type product.

If you can find me a web page with some product information on it I'll see what I can come up with for you so you know how much would equal the dry calcium.

Carlo

[Insane Reefer]

Based on what I can find, I'm thinking it is something like dowflake and a smaller amount of something to produce the hydrocarbon. It is a dry powder, and is made by TropicMarin...

[mr.wilson]

I thought marine grade cement just has fewer chloride ions than standard type 1/11 portland. To my knowledge, this is only significant in reducing the electrolytic corrosion of steel rebar.

How would marine grade cement be beneficial for aquarium use?

[cayars]

Mr. Wilson

It's designed to not degrade as fast in salt water as normal cement does (salt water is an enemy of cement) but it hardens at a much lower pH right off the bat which is very important in a marine environment.

Insane Reefer,
Got the pm with the product link http://www.tropic-marin.com/web/english/produkte/biocalcium.htm

Didn't have to search to hard. It says 5ml will raise the calcium of 5 gallons of US water by 28 ppm. So that's the same thing as saying 1ml will raise 1 gallon by 28 ppm.'

We already knew 1 gram of Calcium Chloride Dihydrate will add 72 ppm of calcium to 1 gallon of water and now we know the TM Bio-Calcium product will add 28 ppm per 1ml. One semi-important thing is one is based on weight and the other by volume. Doesn't really matter as long as we can get the volume needed.

If we assume you still need 1 oz of calcium chloride. One ounce contains 28.47 grams. 28.47 grams of Calcium Chloride Dihydrate will add 2049.84 ppm calcium (28.47grams * 72 ppm).

Now that we know you need 2049.84 ppm of calcium and are using a product that adds 28 ppm per 1ml we can do the following math: 2049.84/28=73.2 ml of Bio-Calcium needed.

You could use the 5ml measuring spoon that comes with it or use 14.85 US teaspoons. 5ml is basically a teaspoon. :)

1 ml = 0.202884135 US teaspoons

Again keep in mind that exercise was based on 1oz of weight not volume on the original 2% needed.

Honestly for your purpose using the weight on such a small amount is OK but it's best to think of volume measurements instead of weight. IE 1 cup cement, 2 cups sand, 1 cup CC, 4.5 ml of Calcium Chloride.

With all that said and done a close shoot from the hip measurement that seems to work well is a teaspoon of Calcium Chloride per 8oz cup of cement. If you use a different product like BIO-Calcium just convert the PPM of calcium like we did above to "switch" products.

Hopefully this was of help,
Carlo

[Insane Reefer]

Tomorrow, hopeful it will :)
Plus I have a really smart older college student who can coach me now that I know what I need.

I will re-read this tomorrow, and see what I make of it then.

I couldn't wait any longer, and made my rock - being an idiot, I tried to figure what I needed, and came up with that one ounce, so that is what I measured.

Hopefully it will work out ok - seemed to get stiffer, faster than it normally does, but that just might have been the heat getting to me, lol.

So when should I consider this cured, as in hydration close to finished? I guess Neptune's test tomorrow, and on subsequent days, should give a ballpark.

I am going to ponder your "puzzle" you posed originally - I have some ideas, but need to think some more.

[Insane Reefer]

And thank you, Cayars - wasn't sure if I had said that or made it clear. I really appreciate the info and the time you took to write it up. My manners would have been better if I wasn't dripping sweat at midnight, lol - it is still 85°F here, right now.
:(

[Neptune777]

"If you have high pH in your tap you can lower it with many different acids include sulfuric acid which you can pick up at almost any LFS (API pH Down). A bottle of this will last a while. You of course can get it much cheaper if you know where to get it or you could use HCl (more potent) available at HD or Lowes. It's used to etch cement. The acids will lower both alk and pH. You can raise alk using either baking soda or washing soda (baked baking soda) depending on what you want to do to the pH.

Run with that and have fun.

Carlo"

So I am trying to fully understand what you have very generously shared with all of us rock geeks....

Are you saying that we could add say Muriatic Acid to the wet mix along with the calcium chloride to drive the PH down immediately?

Thanks!

[Azazael13]

Oy lots of stuff since my reply :)

IR:
The baking method is nice because of 1) The lack of water used and 2)The time it takes. It is not nice in the middle of the summer in Florida ;) I would probably do it again.

As for why they look different, Batch 2 was cast in Salt, while the baked goods were cast in Sand. I am still working on finding a mix I like as well as a casting method. For casting I think sand is the way to go, salt seems to leave poch marks that just seem too big to me.

As I have stated before, my biggest problem with DIY rocks is the diatom/algae bloom you get from them.

In an ideal world my process would work like this
1) Make rock (bake)
2) wait 1 week
3) place in system and not worry about the crud. (diatoms/algae bloom/etc)

All but 1 rock from batch 2 and bake rocks are sitting in a 10G with old salt water and a power head in my garage, trying my best to get part of the crud out.

[cayars]

[i]
So I am trying to fully understand what you have very generously shared with all of us rock geeks....

Are you saying that we could add say Muriatic Acid to the wet mix along with the calcium chloride to drive the PH down immediately?

Thanks! [/B]

NO don't do that! Put some water in a 5 gallon container and "balance" in that. Then just use this water when making your rock.

In principle it's the same as many people do with their make up water. They run an RO/DI unit into a big trashcan and then up the alkalinity of this plus add calcium, etc to get the new salt water up to where they want it. Basically same approach with your cement "water".

Carlo

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10513784#post10513784 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
NO don't do that! Put some water in a 5 gallon container and "balance" in that. Then just use this water when making your rock.

In principle it's the same as many people do with their make up water. They run an RO/DI unit into a big trashcan and then up the alkalinity of this plus add calcium, etc to get the new salt water up to where they want it. Basically same approach with your cement "water".

Carlo


Ahhh that makes more sense! Should I add it to the water to make it more on acidic side or bring it to neutral? My Tap water is just a bit on the alk side on the scale......

Also, what are some brand names of Marine Cement, and what is the typical cost compared to cheap Type I/II Portland cement?

[cayars]

Slightly off topic as it doesn't strictly have to do with making rock but closely related and probably good for info:

If you're only making the rock for yourself or a friend or something the HIGH pH might not be as bad as you think and might be beneficial if used correctly.

For example I strive to keep my tank(s) pH at 8.5-8.6 with 8.3 being the lowest I let it get. This is actually much closer to real reef conditions then most people think because everyone quotes "average ocean pH" of 8.2 or so and use this as the "high side". Our corals don't come from the "average ocean" but from specific locations that happen to be on the higher side of "average". Anthony Calfo recently covered this in his mag and also says to strive for 8.5-8.6 with 8.3 being the min.

Probably a bunch of people here that make rock also drip kalk into their systems to raise the pH. Instead of dripping kalk you could add a piece or two of freshly made high pH rock into a sump or fuge and get the same affect.

You guys already covered the effect of the Kure and how it leaches the same as Kalk. Use it to your advantage.

Depending on your "equipment room" you can even make a trashcan reactor. For example early on I had a 150g stock tank in the basement. I put a big brute trashcan (44g inside the 150g) in it and filled it with freshly made rock (Portland I/II). I then used a small pump connected to my Neptune controller to pump water into the trashcan whenever my pH dropped below the threshold.

In the beginning the reactor will run for brief periods. Over time it needs to run longer and longer as there is less to leach out of the rock. When you get close to 100% reactor time the rock is "Kured" and it's time to put a fresh batch of rock in the reactor. The rock that was in the reactor is now full of good bacteria and can be moved to the tank, sump or other location.

If you have a Neptune controller (AC Jr works) you can even graph the "duty cycle" of a pump and see how often the pump is on or off. This gives you a nice visual to the Kure. The more the small pump is on the more "kured" the rock is. (You can't really go by the pH of the trashcan because water is getting moved in and out too often to balance out the tank).

I even make/sell reactors to replace kalk reactors based on the above "bucket reactor". Ice cube trays filled with pure cement (type I/II) gray cement make the perfect media for this on a small/home scale and a reactor can easily be made from common PVC pipe materials and a couple of taps. Nothing fancy just a big tube filled with cement "bricks" where the water is pumped up through the reactor via a checkvalve (stop backflow) and out the top tap. Really the only key is some type of automated controller based on pH (Neptune). Otherwise without a controller a Kalk drip is better.

Carlo

[mr.wilson]

I agree.

A tank that uses exclusively portland-based rock needs more time to "cycle" anyway, so a PH shift is negligible. In fact, a high PH helps with bacteria production, and hinders algae growth.

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10513926#post10513926 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Ahhh that makes more sense! Should I add it to the water to make it more on acidic side or bring it to neutral? My Tap water is just a bit on the alk side on the scale......

Also, what are some brand names of Marine Cement, and what is the typical cost compared to cheap Type I/II Portland cement?

I'll make you go fishing for this one. However I'll give you a hint. Think back to ReefBalls. One of the links will help.

Google will get you this info also. :)

Carlo

[mr.wilson]

The only one I know of is Aqua-Crete from New Zealand but it only differs in chloride content. This feature is only beneficial in eliminating spalling (cracking off) caused by a reaction with chloride ions and steel rebar within the concrete. Aqua-Crete has no other effect on performance in marine applications.

This is a valuable feature for bridges and pier pilings with steel rebar, but it isn't of any use to us. Stainless steel rebar is another method of addressing this issue.

Perhaps there are other marine grade cements out there with other properties.

Cayars: Are you manufacturing rocks commercially? Are these proprietary methods you are protecting?

[eshook]

Wow! What progress in only a few days. And of course welcome back Travis!

My Perlcrete rock that I made was *very* brittle when I tried to pull it out of the mold (CC). It was sitting in the mold for 3 days with an open top. The top half of the rock was dry so I added some water to aid in hydration and covered it. I will uncover it in a few more days and hopefully it will have firmed up.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10515730#post10515730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
I'll make you go fishing for this one. However I'll give you a hint. Think back to ReefBalls. One of the links will help.

Google will get you this info also. :)

Carlo


Gee thanks....I think.

Anyway I'll share some info with everyone..... talking via email with an engineer who specializes in cement recomended the following to reduce the pH of the dry rock:
Use a CO2 chamber where the rock is exposed to a saturated CO2 environment. CO2 is heavier than air so I would imagine a brute trashcan with a sealed lid could work for this????

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10516343#post10516343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eshook
Wow! What progress in only a few days. And of course welcome back Travis!

My Perlcrete rock that I made was *very* brittle when I tried to pull it out of the mold (CC). It was sitting in the mold for 3 days with an open top. The top half of the rock was dry so I added some water to aid in hydration and covered it. I will uncover it in a few more days and hopefully it will have firmed up.

Wow...I would have expected the rock to be pretty firm in that time frame. What recipe and ratios did you use? Was is mixed extra dry or wet?

[eshook]

It was mixed fairly dry. It was ~2 parts quikcrete cement mix (has both portland and sand), 1-1.5 parts perlite, and a little bit of water. I think with this cement mix I need to add more water than I used to with my old portland techniques. I'm sure it will firm up it will just take a while longer.

[Insane Reefer]

Anyone else feel like a mule with a carrot dangling in front of it's nose?

Cayars. First, could you please post images or links to images of your setup? The saltwater pond (in Jersey no less) intrigues me...
:)

Next, let me try an appeal.

Several of us either sell our rock or have plans to do so. Travis, myself, Sunkool, and Neptune are either just starting to sell, or have been selling. Mr Wilson does that outstanding plumbing cover and wall work commercially. As far as I know, we keep no secrets from each other or the rest of the thread (at least as far as rock goes, lol).
I can't speak for the boys, but for myself I think of it in four ways.
1. People tend to be more lazy than they are cheap - even with knowing how to do it - even if they could do it in a day, many would still elect to buy it.
2. Every day we shave off of making rock means that hobbyists will become more likely to make their own rock, thereby reducing the stress on our oceans.
3. The marine aquarium is the fastest growing section of the hobby industry - everyday sees new recruits to our ranks - and they need rock and most will end up buying their rock.
4. Most of us who are making commercial rock are making limited quantities, a few hundred pounds a month, maybe more, maybe less - we certainly aren't in your league, nor would offer you much in the way of competition, even if we were to go online with it.
So please, please, pretty please, will you share at least the methods/steps that you use? As you pointed out, having an exact recipe is only part of the equation, and I think you could leave out things like exact amounts of this into that, or the like. I'd just like to know what the individual steps you use are. I for one don't mind research, and by replying with what I've asked, you will still leave us plenty to learn for ourselves. You just give us a better chance of getting it right.
Unless of course, you are having fun dangling the carrot? :p

I've looked back over the math from last night and to be honest, that math escapes me, and I'm not sure why. Could be that my basic math skills are almost non-existent. 13 moves from age 7-13, 3 states, so schooling was messed up and I slipped through the system - didn't know my multiplication tables until I was 14. College guy has offered to tutor me - he read your post and understands the math without even thinking about it. I might be in for some real mental anguish here - once he figures out were I'm at math-wise, he may decide to try to educate me - he's that sort of guy. Unfortunately, it has been more than 20 years since I went to school - not sure how well the brain still works...
lol

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10515933#post10515933 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson

Cayars: Are you manufacturing rocks commercially? Are these proprietary methods you are protecting?

Yes

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10512638#post10512638 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
It's designed to not degrade as fast in salt water as normal cement does (salt water is an enemy of cement) but it hardens at a much lower pH right off the bat which is very important in a marine environment.

Mr Wilson.
This is what I was trying to get across when Sunkool and I where "debating" whether salt should be added dry at the beginning or at the end to prevent as much salt from leeching into the cement. I mentioned Sulfate/Salt Attack, and posted a link to support my position.
There are several types of "marine" cements, based on what is needed, most are considered sulfate resistant - this is also where the rebar comes in - resistant cement means less chance of rebar becoming corroded.
This is probably close to what Cayars is using (notice the 4-6 hours final set time):
http://www.bluecirclesouthern.com.au/Images/BCSC_common/pdf/tech_data/Marine_Cement_0506.pdf

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10516646#post10516646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eshook
I think with this cement mix I need to add more water than I used to with my old portland techniques. I'm sure it will firm up it will just take a while longer.

Yes, you will - Neptune and I both have reported that the mix needs to be heavier in water then what you might be used to mixing. I also think a touch more cement (up to 1/4 of a part) helps as well.

Keep in mind though, at least IME, it takes the Perlcrete longer to gain that final strength (esp with a dry mix) - after 2 weeks it is just tough as you could want it to be...

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10516484#post10516484 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
...an engineer who specializes in cement recomended the following to reduce the pH of the dry rock:
Use a CO2 chamber where the rock is exposed to a saturated CO2 environment. CO2 is heavier than air so I would imagine a brute trashcan with a sealed lid could work for this????

That is almost word for word what I had gotten from Terry Collins at Cement.org. My email went on to say that the co2 needs to be applied under pressure for it to be efficacious enough to justify using co2...
And adding it to water makes carbonic acid, which may or may not be useful - the cement industry doesn't go for as much carbonation as we go for.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10517402#post10517402 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
That is almost word for word what I had gotten from Terry Collins at Cement.org. My email went on to say that the co2 needs to be applied under pressure for it to be efficacious enough to justify using co2...
And adding it to water makes carbonic acid, which may or may not be useful - the cement industry doesn't go for as much carbonation as we go for.

Yes, it has to be under pressure according to this guy as well.....I think we are talking with the same guy since cement.org is where I requested the info....I need to pull his email to check his name again.

How could we create a pressurized CO2 chamber? Easily and cheaply that is.....

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10517096#post10517096 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Anyone else feel like a mule with a carrot dangling in front of it's nose?

Cayars. First, could you please post images or links to images of your setup? The saltwater pond (in Jersey no less) intrigues me...
:)


I can take a few pics. The "pond" is no big deal however. If you have ever saw a 300 gallon stock tank then just visualize it sitting outside full of rock with a skimmer attached. It is however attached to my inside tanks.

It's not a green house or anything like that. No covering, nothing. I was going to do both but haven't had any issues with salinity problems from rain or to much heat from the direct sunlight. I typically have over a 1200 watts of heaters constantly running even in the summer but when I connected the outdoor rig up to my inside system the heaters haven't had to run much. So it's saving me $ this way. During the winter I'll move the 300 tubs into the garage.

I've only lived here a few months and I'm still setting things up and gearing up to where I used to be. I've got another few 300 gallon stock tanks that aren't online yet. I'm debating if I want to build a green house or not. With that I'd gain a few more good months of high production and with proper UV protection could grow coralline algae on the rocks outside too. As of right now I haven't attempted to color up the rocks much outside. I bring them inside for that under PCs. However for the most part I haven't been able to keep up with the few stores buying the rock from me and they don't care if there is coralline algae or not as long as the rock is "brown" and looks like rock. :)

I certainly don't want to give the impression I'm doing anything like Walt Smith. Think big home/backyard production and you're thinking correctly.

I'll get some pics however in a day or two. It's raining out right now.

Let me digest the rest a little bit. If I wasn't planning on sharing info I wouldn't have posted in the first place. I may post exactly what I do as some people won't do it exactly the same anyway or seek out the same products which changes things a little. Part of it is just feel. For example you can describe the texture to mix up the water to and people will STILL do this differently which leads to different quality rock.

Regardless or not I'll pass along tips. For example the texture of the rock tends to be different depending on the grain size of the sand you use. Fine, course or mixed. The amount of water you use in the mix directly effects how porous the rock is. The wetter the mix the more porous the rock is and more benefit you get bacteria wise because of the way the rock hydrates. Downside to wetter mix is higher pH for longer periods of time.

Artificially lighter rock is not always good. Porous rock is good but you rock doesn't have to be light to be porous. Matter of fact if you are selling it light rock works against you. :) Of course there is nothing wrong with having both light and porous rock but it tends to not be as strong and can break down in the tank after a few years.

I don't use artificial heat (stove/BBQ grill) or anything like that. I went down that road before and it wasn't worth it. I previously made use of my pool for kuring but haven't found the need to do that anymore. The key I've found to good strong rock is keeping the rock moist during the kure. This can be as simple as wet kuring the rock by keeping it submerged (not needed) or spraying the rock down with water once or twice a day and throwing some plastic on top of it to keep the moisture in. I myself just add it to my salt system because I can but others won't be able to do that.

I'm really liking the outdoor pond setup because it causes the diatoms and whatnot that most people don't want. I like it! They "stain" the rock a nice brown color pretty quickly and get the rock off to a good color start. :) I'll snap some pics of rock a few days old showing this.

Let me see if I can help with the math some. Just tell me this. Do you use a specific amount of cement in weight or volume. IE do you weigh it out first or just use something like a 16/32 oz cup. If you do it the second way can you weigh a cup on a scale and tell me how much it weighs? I'll give you proportions to use based on that.

Carlo


Next, let me try an appeal.

Several of us either sell our rock or have plans to do so. Travis, myself, Sunkool, and Neptune are either just starting to sell, or have been selling. Mr Wilson does that outstanding plumbing cover and wall work commercially. As far as I know, we keep no secrets from each other or the rest of the thread (at least as far as rock goes, lol).
I can't speak for the boys, but for myself I think of it in four ways.
1. People tend to be more lazy than they are cheap - even with knowing how to do it - even if they could do it in a day, many would still elect to buy it.
2. Every day we shave off of making rock means that hobbyists will become more likely to make their own rock, thereby reducing the stress on our oceans.
3. The marine aquarium is the fastest growing section of the hobby industry - everyday sees new recruits to our ranks - and they need rock and most will end up buying their rock.
4. Most of us who are making commercial rock are making limited quantities, a few hundred pounds a month, maybe more, maybe less - we certainly aren't in your league, nor would offer you much in the way of competition, even if we were to go online with it.
So please, please, pretty please, will you share at least the methods/steps that you use? As you pointed out, having an exact recipe is only part of the equation, and I think you could leave out things like exact amounts of this into that, or the like. I'd just like to know what the individual steps you use are. I for one don't mind research, and by replying with what I've asked, you will still leave us plenty to learn for ourselves. You just give us a better chance of getting it right.
Unless of course, you are having fun dangling the carrot? :p

I've looked back over the math from last night and to be honest, that math escapes me, and I'm not sure why. Could be that my basic math skills are almost non-existent. 13 moves from age 7-13, 3 states, so schooling was messed up and I slipped through the system - didn't know my multiplication tables until I was 14. College guy has offered to tutor me - he read your post and understands the math without even thinking about it. I might be in for some read mental anguish here - once he figures out were I'm at math-wise, he may decide to try to educate me - he's that sort of guy. Unfortunately, it has been more then 20 years since I went to school - not sure how well the brain still works...
lol [/B]

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10514012#post10514012 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
If you're only making the rock for yourself or a friend or something the HIGH pH might not be as bad as you think and might be beneficial if used correctly.

Yes, Cayars, this was something we talked about before the last split, I think it was. Even pH kured rock will still boost ALK for several months - my backwall was 3 weeks old when I installed it, in like May, I want to say off the top of my head. My ALK is still reading quite high (I have no way of knowing what it actually is - my test doesn't go that high), and my pH is around 8.6. My wall weighed 7lbs I think, and my water capacity is 6.5g.

Several others reported similar experiences so we sort of concluded the same thing you are talking about :)

I'm still stumped as to why it is so hard to keep the calcium up in my "almost no load" tank - my other tank, that contains no cement rock has no problems with calcium, but the cement wall tank does. Another member also reported this trouble, and searching google also reveals that it happens to a lot of folks. I think I read once that CA and ALK are closely tied, and if one is high, the other becomes more difficult to maintain, but I am not sure if that has anything to do with it or not. My other best idea, I'm told by folks on the board, is unlikely, though I am hoping to be able to do some tests this fall on it - if I can find access to the test equipment needed or the people who have access. But no one has offered any explanation for the phenomenon.

Have you any thoughts on why calcium is hard to maintain in high ALK (cement rock) tanks?

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10517447#post10517447 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Yes, it has to be under pressure according to this guy as well.....I think we are talking with the same guy since cement.org is where I requested the info....I need to pull his email to check his name again.

How could we create a pressurized CO2 chamber? Easily and cheaply that is.....

LOL - and people teased me for wanting to make a rock oven/sauna :lol:

To pressurize anything, safely, is expensive - trust me, I did some preliminary research on it, and if a rock sauna is "over-board", well, a pressurized chamber, that if, is even slightly wrong, could blow up, discharging flying rocks everywhere - is plain suicide, IMO.
As crazy as I am, I drew the line there.

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10517556#post10517556 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer

I'm still stumped as to why it is so hard to keep the calcium up in my "almost no load" tank - my other tank, that contains no cement rock has no problems with calcium, but the cement wall tank does. Another member also reported this trouble, and searching google also reveals that it happens to a lot of folks. I think I read once that CA and ALK are closely tied, and if one is high, the other becomes more difficult to maintain, but I am not sure if that has anything to do with it or not. My other best idea, I'm told by folks on the board, is unlikely, though I am hoping to be able to do some tests this fall on it - if I can find access to the test equipment needed or the people who have access. But no one has offered any explanation for the phenomenon.

Have you any thoughts on why calcium is hard to maintain in high ALK (cement rock) tanks?

You're just out of balance. What you need to know is the exact alk level you are at. What your current calcium level is and ALSO what you Magnesium is.

Carlo

[cayars]

Actually I got thinking about this and though I should post it. The actual "recipe" doesn't matter that much. It's more of a texture thing as some of you like CC and others like only sand while others use CS. Doesn't really matter.

The key to getting fast turnaround rock is:

drum roll

[Neptune777]

Well I checked and it was Terry Collins I spoke with!

Anywho I got another email from him and he said that the CO2 does not have to be under pressure to work. Under pressure means it will work faster on dense rock. However if the rock is porous (like ours) pressure might not be needed as much. It would easy to test with a mason jar with a small chunk of fresh rock, inject CO2, and seal it with a lid....let sit for a day or two and test pH....

[cayars]

Use a fast drying cement. Mix/add in miro silica to balance the pH.

You can use a wetting agent if needed to make the cement easier to handle without loosing strength.

That's it. The key to pH is fast drying cement AND miro silica. You get directions with miro silica and you can play from there a little based on your pH and other rock "additives".

I remember someone bringing this up before but then it kind of died off quickly. I don't know if anyone ever tried it but that the key for me.

For the average person it's going to be to much hassle to find it so they'll continue to use type I/II cement. For anyone already doing this on a more "mass" scale I'm sure they already know/use miro silica.

BTW, this is the same thing ReefBalls does which is why I mentioned it earlier since that had been brought up in the thread many moons ago. :)

Carlo

[Insane Reefer]

Cool - good to know!
Michealalan did a bit of playing with the micro-silica, but I think he was using regular portland, not a fast set. He said in those tests that he saw no noticeable improvement in pH.]
We will have to wait to see what he says.

Micro-silica is difficult to find locally in a lot of places - some masonry shops don't even know what it is. It can be gotten online:
http://www.cementec.ca/concrete.html
And I'm sure at other places as well...

Thanks again, Cayars :)
You Rock!

[Insane Reefer]

Can I ask you Cayars, does a treatment of acid occur before you consider the rock done? You had mentioned acceptable acids earlier, and I think you were talking in terms of lowing pH of mixing water prior to use, but is there a follow up, perhaps to promote carbonation or the like?

I'm off on a new quest - to convert the methods we consider traditional to a new faster, non-baked method, with the info we had gotten from Reefball/Michealalan, and now from you. I'm sure Neptune will be into this too.

Perhaps Michealalan would share where he found his micro-silica? Or sell smaller amounts to certain of us testers? I'd personally like to try some first before buying a 50# bag.

[badfish03]

Here are some manufacturers of micro-silica and the dry powder product they carry. One type should be available locally at a concrete specialty store.

Elkem Chemicals EMS 960
Master Builders MS-SF
Simcala Inc. Simcala Microsilica
W.R. Graves Force 10,000D
Burgess Pigment Co Optipozz
Sika Corp. Sikacrete 950DP

[jasonh]

Hmm....micro silica, huh? You know, once Travis posted the chemical reactions with Silica that take place, I thought to myself, "ok, why not just use a silica-based product to reduce kure time?" Hey, it happens :)

I'm curious to see how this turns out with the silica. I think I'll just have to stay on the sidelines for this one...It's tough to do some testing in my bitty apartment :)

[mr.wilson]

Micro-silica may be the active ingredient in the fast-setting concrete additive they sell at Home Depot. It says on the label that it isn't calcium-based, but it could still be polymer-based.

Fast-setting cement only takes a few hours to stabilize PH, and standard portland seems to only take a week or two for many, so I don't see an advantage to using any other products or procedures.

[bigtex52]

I'd just like to find a source for it in the Dallas area to try out. The cement guys I have talked to look at me like I have a horn growing out of my forehead when I ask about silica fume or microsilica.:rolleyes:

[bigtex52]

mr. wilson,

I retrieved the MSDS from the Quikrete Hydraulic Water stop and this is what it lists for ingredients:
Hazardous Components CAS No. PEL (OSHA) TLV (ACGIH)
mg/M3 mg/M3
Silica Sand, crystalline 14808-60-7 10 0.05 (respirable)
%Si02+2
Portland Cement 65997-15-1 5 5
May Contain one or more of the following ingredients:
Amorphous Silica 07631-86-9 80 mg/M3 10
% SiO2
Calcium Sulfate 10101-41-4 or 5 5
13397-24-5
Lime 01305-62-0 5 5
Fly Ash 68131-74-8 5 5
Calcium Aluminate Cement 65997-16-2 5 5
Clay 01332-58-7 5 5
Pulverized Limestone 01317-65-3 5 5

Is the amorphous silica the same as silica fume?

[bigtex52]

I found a company on line that has this description of silica fume:

Fritz-Pak Silica Fume is a finely-divided mineral admixture, available in both uncompacted and compacted forms. It is a pozzolanic material which is composed of highly refined silicon dioxide in the non-crystalline form. Silica Fume will chemically react with the calcium hydroxide released by the hydration of portland cement to form compounds possessing superior cementitious properties. This ultra-fine material will better fill voids between cement particles and result in a very dense concrete with higher compressive strengths and extremely low permeability.

Is the use of this admix affecting or even destroying the desired porosity of the finished rock? Obviously, you can make the rock more porous by using less water but how will this affect how the silica fume works? Just a few thoughts.... BTW, here is the link for the company I found:

http://fritzpak.com

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520421#post10520421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
The cement guys I have talked to look at me like I have a horn growing out of my forehead when I ask about silica fume or microsilica.:rolleyes:

I KNOW THAT LOOK! :hmm4:

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520729#post10520729 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
Is the use of this admix affecting or even destroying the desired porosity of the finished rock?

This is something that is sort of an area of contention.
By its nature, Water Stop would be non-porous - it is meant to seal. So not an ideal product IMO for nice porous rock. Mr Wilson uses this (or products like it) to create rock covering and walls, not biological filtration rock. Adding in aggregates and making a drier mix will loosen it some, but I think if we can locate a source for Microsilica, then using traditional portland, in addition to the calcium chloride and microsilica would be the best solution.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520729#post10520729 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
IBTW, here is the link for the company I found:

http://fritzpak.com

Hey! Awesome!
Using your link, and using the Retailer Locator on the site, I found a local place that is supposed to have it.
Carter-Water Const. Materials

Never even knew this place existed...
I'll call tomorrow :)

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520221#post10520221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
...and standard portland seems to only take a week or two for many...

Who are these many, Mr Wilson? Have I missed something?
Except for like one person I can think of, the shortest kures for traditional portland, that have been reported here, are in the 3 week range, but most people report 4-6 weeks as how long it took them.

Hydration for traditional portland is a 28ish day process, unless accelerators, polymers or other admixtures are used - or steam is part of the equation. Until hydration is ceased, the pH should remain on the high end, around 10-12.

Once hydration is ceased (naturally or by admixtures), pH can be dropped quickly, without rebound, by using acid or other possible treatments, or with a couple of weeks of water baths.
At least that is how I understand it...

[Insane Reefer]

BigTex,
I just realized I combined two of your questions in my head, and probably confused you, as well as myself. Hey - it is late and I learned stuff today - the brain can only take so much, lol.

Anyway, I stand on what I said about Water Stop (or like products), there are several items in that MSDS, that the mix may or may not contain, that we don't really need.

I still think mixing our own recipe is the way to go...

If silica fume is the same as microsilica, then it sounds like it might indeed reduce porosity by filling many of the pores and capillaries. It is something to think about, and, if possible, seek answers for.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10521157#post10521157 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
BigTex,
I just realized I combined two of your questions in my head, and probably confused you, as well as myself. Hey - it is late and I learned stuff today - the brain can only take so much, lol.

Anyway, I stand on what I said about Water Stop (or like products), there are several items in that MSDS, that the mix may or may not contain, that we don't really need.

I still think mixing our own recipe is the way to go...

If silica fume is the same as microsilica, then it sounds like it might indeed reduce porosity by filling many of the pores and capillaries. It is something to think about, and, if possible, seek answers for.

We could get around this by adding more aggregate like perlite.

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520805#post10520805 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
This is something that is sort of an area of contention.
By its nature, Water Stop would be non-porous - it is meant to seal. So not an ideal product IMO for nice porous rock. Mr Wilson uses this (or products like it) to create rock covering and walls, not biological filtration rock. Adding in aggregates and making a drier mix will loosen it some, but I think if we can locate a source for Microsilica, then using traditional portland, in addition to the calcium chloride and microsilica would be the best solution. the rocks I made with the water stop are very porous (I think the addition of the OS helps)... not as porous as the rocks with the perlite, but about on par with the original oldskool formula

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520906#post10520906 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Who are these many, Mr Wilson? Have I missed something?
Except for like one person I can think of, the shortest kures for traditional portland, that have been reported here, are in the 3 week range, but most people report 4-6 weeks as how long it took them.

Hydration for traditional portland is a 28ish day process, unless accelerators, polymers or other admixtures are used - or steam is part of the equation. Until hydration is ceased, the pH should remain on the high end, around 10-12.

Once hydration is ceased (naturally or by admixtures), pH can be dropped quickly, without rebound, by using acid or other possible treatments, or with a couple of weeks of water baths.
At least that is how I understand it... I made a batch (experimental) about two weeks ago that is testing out at 8.3 ... now, it may be a fluke, so I am going to try and duplicate it this weekend. If the new bacth is ready in two weeks or so, then I may have found a new way to make it that causes it to kure faster.... lol.. time will tell huh?

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520221#post10520221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Micro-silica may be the active ingredient in the fast-setting concrete additive they sell at Home Depot. It says on the label that it isn't calcium-based, but it could still be polymer-based.

Fast-setting cement only takes a few hours to stabilize PH, and standard portland seems to only take a week or two for many, so I don't see an advantage to using any other products or procedures.

It very well could be Mr. Wilson. I've noticed it being in one type of bonding cement Lowes carries that also happens to be white (don't remember off hand what it was). The problem is that it's in low proportion to what I'd use. Many of the applications that could use silica in the mix aren't designed for marine environments so the amount of it won't be the same as the silica isn't added for pH control per say which is our objective.

How much you use of it depends really on the total recipe you are using and it changes a little depending on the amount of different additives in your rock mix.

I've gotten some different PMs so I'll answer some of them generically here:

Is there a perfect recipe (IE sand, CC, CS, cement, salt)? No, not really. This is more of a texture thing and is in the eye of the maker. I personally try and keep the cement to 25%-33% of the total mixture depending on the type of cement and what's in the mixture. This is no different that has been discussed here.

Is salt OK to use? As already discussed, salt is an enemy of cement. HOWEVER, we're not building bridges/building so the "strength" can be compromised some with salt. Using a fast set cement mix takes some of the worry of salt away. As already mentioned add salt as the last step of the mix. I'd try and keep salt to 1/5 or under of the total recipe. You really don't need to use salt in the mix however. This does create "pockets" in the rock but it's really not needed for bacteria/fauna that live in the rock. Cement is very porous by itself if you ever look at it under a microscope or big magnifying glass. Salt & sand can be quite useful at casting time to create tunnels and holes, etc. This is more of a personal preference and I'd agree with most of the use of salt from the thread.

How much water to use? Tough call and really depends on ingredients used and type of cement. It's helpful to understand what water does from a hydration standpoint. As your fresh rock hardens it doesn't "move" to fill in voids. Where ever there was water there will be a void as the rock hydrates and this is one of the main reasons why cement is so porous. Some types of cement seem to work better with less water while others can be more moist and still be workable. There's a limit of course with any type of cement. In general for type I/II the "cottage cheese" description is pretty good but I'd go on the "squishy" side of cottage cheese. In otherwords a tad (small amount) more then maybe you presently use (try it). The downside is the pH stays higher longer in I/II cement but the rock ends up more porous. Other downside is you might need to leave the cast alone a little longer before moving/touching it.

Do I use CC or CS in my mix. Normally NO. Haven't found it to be needed or that useful in the mix. Again it's a personal thing and more of a texture you are going for. I do occasionally sprinkle a little CC in the mix at the end if my mix is a tad to wet or for a little variety but it's not a staple in my mix. Plus it adds to the cost and when you are selling it the objective is to keep costs down.

Do I add coloring to my rock. YES, same as Walt Smith does, only I don't make "red" rocks. I go for more of a tan color with maybe a touch of pink look. I'm not fond of white, gray or red rock (neither are those who buy my rock). I've also found off white or tannish color rocks look better down the road. White rocks gets more of a "black" look to it in time. Pretty much same comment from Walt Smith way back in the thread. I actually do intentionally add a little more or less coloring to different batches for variety.

Do I mix by hand or machine. Both, although I like to do it by hand as much as possible since it's the only exercise I seem to get lately. Mixing 50lbs of ingredients at a time really gets the heart going. :) If I have a large order in the wings I'll step up production with a mixing machine. It mixes while I'm casting.

What do I use for casting? Not much really, I have hardened sand beds (from use) with interesting formations on them. I just pour over this. Depending on shapes I'm trying to make I'll flip the rocks over the next day and build on top of them. This is an easy way to avoid "flat-bottom" rocks unless you need that "feature".

How can I make a really big slab rock for an overhang without waiting 6 months for it to kure? How can I make boulder size pieces with the pH problem? With type I/II cement do it in stages. For example maybe you could make a bunch of golfball/baseball size pieces. After casting let them sit for a week (or two) in a moist environment (spray with hose and keep covered with plastic). This will reduce the pH a lot from the rock. Then take all your balls/pieces with more mix and cast them together for a large rock. You will definitely cut down on kure time doing this as much of the "internal" part of the rock is pre-cured.

Is it better to use fine or course sand? Yes :) I use a combination.

Should I use white or brown sand? I don't know. I use white fine sand and brown course sand since that is what I get easily.

Should I use aragonite or silica based sand? What ever you can get easily. I don't buy into the silica based sand problems. I have a large silica based DSB and no problems. Silica is actually good in limited amounts to our tanks and it's a "trace element" in salt mixes. I believe Randy wrote up a good article on this and came to the conclusion that silicate based sands can be a good thing for many people. If you're making rock for yourself pickup a silica test kit and test your tank. If you're high then use aragonite based sand to be "safe" if this mentally helps. I don't think it makes a difference in rock.

I think that covers the individual questions I've received.

Keep in mind. I'm not a Rock God and neither is Walt Smith. We probably have tried a lot more things then most people but that doesn't mean we couldn't do things differently or better for the average person. We're making more rock then most people (especially WS) so you have to keep in mind "production schedules". Making more rock doesn't mean making better rock by any means. It just probably indicates you've tried more things and make "consistent" rock that sells.

Carlo

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520421#post10520421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
I'd just like to find a source for it in the Dallas area to try out. The cement guys I have talked to look at me like I have a horn growing out of my forehead when I ask about silica fume or microsilica.:rolleyes:
Check and see if you have a Shepler's concrete supply or Rufus Walker
or some other concrete specialty store if they don't have it they can get it for you. The Sikacrete is available in a 25# bag.

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520729#post10520729 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
I found a company on line that has this description of silica fume:

This ultra-fine material will better fill voids between cement particles and result in a very dense concrete with higher compressive strengths and extremely low permeability.

Is the use of this admix affecting or even destroying the desired porosity of the finished rock? Obviously, you can make the rock more porous by using less water but how will this affect how the silica fume works? Just a few thoughts....


The description you found would mainly apply to ready-mix batched concrete not so much hand mixed. I found basically the same thing on several sites they went on to tell an operator how to mix it in and how many revolutions to use at X RPM's. It also warned about making sure that a good portion of the aggregate and water were present before the MS was added to keep it from balling up. MSDS sheets on this stuff warns against breathing and prolonged contact with skin or eyes. In other words it isn't much worse than cement :eek1:

The mixes that are being used are already degrading the strength of finished concrete enough that this will probably only help with the overall strength of the final product. IMO
Robert

[badfish03]

CAYARS when you are making up water for your mix are you shooting for a nuetral PH or are you looking for a bit of a acidic PH?
I would think that a slightly elevated acidic content would speed up the Kuring process.
Robert

[cayars]

badfish03,

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned "acid" at all as that probably gave the wrong impression. In a nutshell you want close to "average" but not acidic water. If you're very alkaline (as many will be) then some acid can help.

For small amounts of rock RO water is good to use. I wouldn't use DI water however as to many minerals are pulled from the water.

Here's a good read on acid and it's effect on concrete: http://www.cement.org/tech/cct_dur_acid.asp

Carlo

[Neptune777]

Honestly for me if all I have to do is let the rock sit for 3-6 weeks then that is the way to go.....I would rather not add other ingredients which drive the cost up (not sure how much silica fume is or how much is needed).


However....
I really want to do a test with a sealable 55gal drum and CO2 gas to see what that does....

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10522326#post10522326 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
badfish03,

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned "acid" at all as that probably gave the wrong impression. In a nutshell you want close to "average" but not acidic water. If you're very alkaline (as many will be) then some acid can help.
Carlo

I think I did a bad job of writing this up also, What I meant (that you have answered) is whether you were looking for a balance or nuetral PH or something slightly acidic. Since my water at the house is very Hard I would need to add a mild acidic solution to balance my water to a nuetral PH correct. Have you tried Tannic Acid to do this?
Soaking live aok leaves in water for several days would give you a slightly acidic solution and would add some brown color to the mix.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10522326#post10522326 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars

Here's a good read on acid and it's effect on concrete: http://www.cement.org/tech/cct_dur_acid.asp
Carlo

Nice site for basic information but you need several of the books on the site if you want to go into more depth. I already knew the effects of acid on concrete or at least the basics.
Robert

[mr.wilson]

It's hard to keep track of all the players in this epic thread, but I remember reading a number of posts where two or three weeks of dry curing was all it took to get the PH down to 8.6. For some, it was just a matter of days.

A PH in the high 8's is not detrimental when used in a new tank. Rock that buffers 0 TDS water from a PH of 7 to a PH of 9 may not have any significant effect on PH when added to saltwater. It's a matter of dissolution rates. Soaking cement or aragonite in ion hungry 0 TDS filtered water will cause it to dissolve at an accelerated rate. Why remove calcium and carbonates that are beneficial to a reef tank? After going through great effort to remove these ions from the rock, you end up spending more resources adding these same ions through chemical dosing and via calcium reactor.

Biological filtration has two aspects, nitrification, and denitrification. A greater surface area will provide more viable sites for bio-films and subsequent nitrification; however, a sufficient number of sites isn't a significant limiting factor for biological filtration in marine tanks. For this reason filtration resources are not focused on nitrification, but on nutrient export and chemical filtration.

Denitrification requires an anaerobic zone with sites within a certain range of void space and surface area. Void space will provide more oxygen, and surface area will provide more sites. Fast setting cement mixes offer more surface area with fewer void spaces thus making it more conducive to denitrification, but from scientific studies and anecdotal evidence, it appears that a great range of pore sizes will work. Reef tanks have been maintained with 0 nitrates with a large variety and quantity of media, from bare bottom tanks to open (acropora skeleton) rock work, to very dense Caribbean rock.

There is no proof that rock work should be any more dense or porous than naturally occurring reef rock. As long as we fall within this range, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. There are a number of ceramic filtration media products on the market, but they offer nothing more than marketing to support their merits. Once a surface area is clogged with bio-films (bacterial slime) the pore size becomes moot.

I have large commercial coral vats and fish systems with no rock for biological filtration. The substrate is a more efficient means of carrying out denitrification than rock. Sufficient nitrification is accomplished by the substrate even with the heavy bioload of newly imported coral shipments and subsequent die-off and mucous production, and over-stocked fish tanks with stressed fish.

Tanks with chronic nitrate problems are best dealt with by addressing import and export methods, mechanical filtration and through chemical filtration and with external deep sand beds.

In the matter of water-proof cement mixes, there are two ways of achieving this. One is to use a plasticizer like Sealbond, the other is to speed hydration through the use of polymers, calcium, micro-silica, or Co2. Any of these methods will render full hydration throughout the concrete, resulting in a more dense pore structure (waterproof). Type 1/11 portland takes 28 days to cure and will have a larger pore structure (more void space and less surface area). This is why all of these fast setting additives and mixes claim that the final product is stronger (more dense).

Density varies from product to product, depending on how quickly it sets. Once you add aggregate to these mixes, the waterproofing is lost. All of the fast setting mixes I've used allow water to penetrate through.

If you are producing rock commercially, then it is wise to buy cheaper type 1/11 portland and store the formed rocks for 28 days. The retail store will likely have it on the shelf for a few weeks or months anyway.

I use fast setting mixes because I have a tight time line with construction schedules, and I don't mind paying twice as much. The added bonus for me is a stronger product with better bond to walls and PVC plumbing and a modeling clay texture.

As I stated before, I wouldn't use faux rock in an aquarium unless it was aquacultured. It takes six months to establish a tank with live rock. With dead rock, it takes over a year and biodiversity and coraline algae coverage is still limited. You will acquire biodiversity from the rock base of corals, but the hobbyists using DIY rock are generally on a low budget and are stocking sparingly.

Manmade rock is definitely the way the industry needs to go, but only through a means of replicating the true benefits of live rock (the microorganisms they carry).

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10522950#post10522950 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
It's hard to keep track of all the players in this epic thread, but I remember reading a number of posts where two or three weeks of dry curing was all it took to get the PH down to 8.6. For some, it was just a matter of days.

A PH in the high 8's is not detrimental when used in a new tank. Rock that buffers 0 TDS water from a PH of 7 to a PH of 9 may not have any significant effect on PH when added to saltwater. It's a matter of dissolution rates. Soaking cement or aragonite in ion hungry 0 TDS filtered water will cause it to dissolve at an accelerated rate. Why remove calcium and carbonates that are beneficial to a reef tank? After going through great effort to remove these ions from the rock, you end up spending more resources adding these same ions through chemical dosing and via calcium reactor.

Biological filtration has two aspects, nitrification, and denitrification. A greater surface area will provide more viable sites for bio-films and subsequent nitrification; however, a sufficient number of sites isn't a significant limiting factor for biological filtration in marine tanks. For this reason filtration resources are not focused on nitrification, but on nutrient export and chemical filtration.

I wouldn't ever soak rock in 0 TDS RO/DI water as that is counter productive as you pointed out.

I only suggested some people might be better off using RO (not DI) water in the mix itself.

I'm not sure what you meant by " For this reason filtration resources are not focused on nitrification, but on nutrient export and chemical filtration."


Denitrification requires an anaerobic zone with sites within a certain range of void space and surface area. Void space will provide more oxygen, and surface area will provide more sites.


More accurately the void spaces allow exchange of water flow at a slow pace. The farther into the rock you get the presense of O2 is decreased until there is none. This provides the denitrifing bacteria a place to work.


Fast setting cement mixes offer more surface area with fewer void spaces thus making it more conducive to denitrification, but from scientific studies and anecdotal evidence, it appears that a great range of pore sizes will work. Reef tanks have been maintained with 0 nitrates with a large variety and quantity of media, from bare bottom tanks to open (acropora skeleton) rock work, to very dense Caribbean rock.


I'm not sure I'd agree with that from observation. The more void spaces you have the more population you can have of denitrifing bacteria (up to what the tank needs). Regardless I'm sure it's porous enough to not matter.


There is no proof that rock work should be any more dense or porous than naturally occurring reef rock. As long as we fall within this range, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. There are a number of ceramic filtration media products on the market, but they offer nothing more than marketing to support their merits. Once a surface area is clogged with bio-films (bacterial slime) the pore size becomes moot.


Agreed


I have large commercial coral vats and fish systems with no rock for biological filtration. The substrate is a more efficient means of carrying out denitrification than rock. Sufficient nitrification is accomplished by the substrate even with the heavy bioload of newly imported coral shipments and subsequent die-off and mucous production, and over-stocked fish tanks with stressed fish.


The subtrate can be less or more effective depending on the system. However I think with many people moving away from DSB and going to thinner sand beds the use of rock is even more important.


Tanks with chronic nitrate problems are best dealt with by addressing import and export methods, mechanical filtration and through chemical filtration and with external deep sand beds.

That's one way. I prefer biological myself over mechanical or chemical filtration but they are all important! Granted with heavy bio-loads in some tanks even a ton of rock won't help.


In the matter of water-proof cement mixes, there are two ways of achieving this. One is to use a plasticizer like Sealbond, the other is to speed hydration through the use of polymers, calcium, micro-silica, or Co2. Any of these methods will render full hydration throughout the concrete, resulting in a more dense pore structure (waterproof). Type 1/11 portland takes 28 days to cure and will have a larger pore structure (more void space and less surface area). This is why all of these fast setting additives and mixes claim that the final product is stronger (more dense).

Density varies from product to product, depending on how quickly it sets. Once you add aggregate to these mixes, the waterproofing is lost. All of the fast setting mixes I've used allow water to penetrate through.


I would never ever use a water-proof cement for making rock. The problem with this is that it "seel" the rock and makes it very hard for water to pass through it. This pretty much kills off the denitrifing abilities of the rock as a whole.


If you are producing rock commercially, then it is wise to buy cheaper type 1/11 portland and store the formed rocks for 28 days. The retail store will likely have it on the shelf for a few weeks or months anyway.


I never said I didn't use I/II type cement. I add my own stuff to it to make it quick setting and to lower the pH. If I don't have to have it sitting around for a month I can turn it over quicker. I got an order yesterday for 600lbs of large pieces and they need it next Friday (one week from today) for a weekend install. If I don't happen to have enough large pieces in the wings I'd be in trouble. However the way I currently make the rock I can do this and give them rock next Friday that will be under 9 pH and closer to about 8.7-8.8 and these are large pieces. This size rock might take others 2 months to "kure" with normal I/II methods.

[/b]
I use fast setting mixes because I have a tight time line with construction schedules, and I don't mind paying twice as much. The added bonus for me is a stronger product with better bond to walls and PVC plumbing and a modeling clay texture.

As I stated before, I wouldn't use faux rock in an aquarium unless it was aquacultured. It takes six months to establish a tank with live rock. With dead rock, it takes over a year and biodiversity and Coralline algae coverage is still limited. You will acquire biodiversity from the rock base of corals, but the hobbyists using DIY rock are generally on a low budget and are stocking sparingly.

Manmade rock is definitely the way the industry needs to go, but only through a means of replicating the true benefits of live rock (the microorganisms they carry). [/B]

Where did you ever get 6 months from? Maybe to get good coralline algae growth but I can make rock today and put it in a tank with a little "plug" of coralline algae (starter) and have the tank stocked in a day or two (fish and corals including acros). Bio-Spira and Turbo Enzyme 900 will pretty much do away with cycling a tank and the bacteria takes to man made rock very well. Pods and other fauna can easily be introduced to a tank for a rapid start. (good amount of sand from another system can do almost as well). You just need to know how to do it (and I'm sure you do). I personally think things like the 1 year before sps rule is bogus but it takes most people that long to get the tank undercontrol, gain need knowledge and get plankton and whatnot going naturally. Nothing here that can't be introduced and augmented as the tank matures in the hands of an experienced person.

Carlo

[badfish03]

Mr Wilson do you think that adding life sand as a construction material for the aquacultured rock would be beneficial to quicker establishment of bacteria in and on the rock? Or do you think the curing (Kuring) process will kill it off negating the benefit?

This whole thread is more a mental excersize 28 days for curing is not a long time and the majority of that time the material does not need to be submerged as most do it.

Robert

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10523826#post10523826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by badfish03
Mr Wilson do you think that adding life sand as a construction material for the aquacultured rock would be beneficial to quicker establishment of bacteria in and on the rock? Or do you think the curing (Kuring) process will kill it off negating the benefit?

This whole thread is more a mental excersize 28 days for curing is not a long time and the majority of that time the material does not need to be submerged as most do it.

Robert

I agree, many of the methods and practices described in this thread are brain teasers and fun projects. For a one-off project, it would take longer to employ some of these curing methods than to just wait.

These experiments are valuable nonetheless as some will lead to new discoveries. I think advances will come from mistakes before they come from theory.

The cementing process will kill everything, so live and should be added later once the tanks running. As IR suggested in a previous post, you should add some live rock to the tank to seed it, then remove it later.

[Neptune777]

Woooo Hoooo....I seem to have found a local supplier of Silica Fume. The bags run $20 for 25#. Not sure if this is a good deal or not...

[mr.wilson]

Cayars; My comments weren't directed at you or your practices.

What I meant with regard to biological filtration, is it is easily achieved and requires no special attention, thus resources are focused more on the other methods of filtration that are harder to perfect.

What I meant by it taking 6 months to a year for a tank to stabilize wasn't what people commonly refer to as "cycled", as the nitrogen cycle is continual. Ammonia is easily removed chemically and with bacterial inoculations, but nitrite doesn't even become a problem until several months down the road, and nitrate and phosphates may not peak until the six month mark. As a result, corals tend to recede and bleach and fish suffer from stress-related diseases. A mature tank has very few fish or coral mortalities and no algae plagues.

My definition of "stabilized" is the point in time when nitrate and phosphate are 0, nuisance algae appears only on the glass every three to four days and is limited to green slime algae, and the tank is ich and bacterial/fungal infection-free.

Yes, you can add fish and coral immediately to a new tank, but you will experience a longer period before the tank is truly stable, and greater risk of disaster. If you are trying to achieve this chemically with sterile rock, it will take months of dosing as you wait for each respective form of beneficial bacteria to develop.

I experience good coraline algae coverage on my faux rock walls at the six month point, but that's in a tank full of live rock.

[Kurt03]

How are you guys getting good natural looking rock? Ive only tried to make it once and it didnt come out very natural looking. Im talking about the shapes of the rock, not the texture.

wilson what kind of additives are you adding to shorten the cure time?

-Kurt

[Neptune777]

I spoke with the folks at Reef Balls....here is what they recommend for the addition of Micro Silica:

"Use about 5% microsilica by weight of Type II Portland Cement. Be sure to use a high range water reducer if your mold is complex and you need liquidy concrete. Do not use too much water in your mix. Cure at 80% or greater humidity for at least 30 day before using.

Thanks,"


Since they don't use Calcium Chloride to fast set I would guess that is why they recommend the 30 day cure (to complete the hydration).

[cayars]

mr.wilson,

I agree, btw, sorry my response to you was a little on the hard-nosed side. I didn't mean it to be that way but was trying to reply to a few message and was being fast.

It wasn't supposed to come off sounding that way.

Carlo

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10524808#post10524808 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I spoke with the folks at Reef Balls....here is what they recommend for the addition of Micro Silica:

"Use about 5% microsilica by weight of Type II Portland Cement. Be sure to use a high range water reducer if your mold is complex and you need liquidy concrete. Do not use too much water in your mix. Cure at 80% or greater humidity for at least 30 day before using.

Thanks,"


Since they don't use Calcium Chloride to fast set I would guess that is why they recommend the 30 day cure (to complete the hydration).

Sounds about right to me on the ratio by weight. Don't use volume!

I don't think most people will need the water reducer since we aren't pouring concrete. :)

Pretty good starting measurements by weight to cement are:
5% micro silica
2% calcium chloride

You can play with percents from there to see if a little more or less works for you.

Carlo

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10524632#post10524632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kurt03
How are you guys getting good natural looking rock? Ive only tried to make it once and it didnt come out very natural looking. Im talking about the shapes of the rock, not the texture.

-Kurt

Practice! or one heck of a sand mold :D

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10524632#post10524632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kurt03
How are you guys getting good natural looking rock? Ive only tried to make it once and it didnt come out very natural looking. Im talking about the shapes of the rock, not the texture.

wilson what kind of additives are you adding to shorten the cure time?

-Kurt

Most people use a sand or salt casting to get interesting shapes. Go back about ten pages or so and look at Sunkools? video. You can add more casting media after the first stage and add more on to it for more interesting shapes. The texture can be altered if you use a plastic brush on it after it dries a bit. Screwdrivers and other tools can be used to make holes and contour. A slightly dry mix will help make it easier to hold shapes and give it a rougher texture. The more you mix and handle it, the more water works its' way to the surface, causing a smooth finish. You can spray the rocks with acid after they dry to get a rougher surface.

I use a pre-mixed polymer modified portland mix. It sets in 20 minutes without additional chemicals. I would get similar results at a slightly cheaper cost if I added my own additives such as micro-silica or calcium chloride. Convenience is more important than cost for me at this point in time.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10521720#post10521720 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
White rocks gets more of a "black" look to it in time. Pretty much same comment from Walt Smith way back in the thread.

I didn't know Walt had ever replied to the thread, unless he was the guy who posted pictures of the OP's and Barge almost a year ago (I have a vague memory of that) - and I don't remember anything about white rock turning black - not saying it wasn't said, just this first I've heard of it.
What sort of time-frame are you talking about? I got to see some rock I made 3 years ago or so, about 6 months back, when a student who had bought it brought it into the LFS to sell, as he was moving to a new school and didn't know how long it would be before he could get setup again. I'll admit there was some of the dark maroon (almost black) coralline on it, but it certainly wasn't black by any stretch - most was the same you see on any rock, purple and pink. Most of the rock had grown over with things like polyps and the like so there wasn't a lot of "rock" to see, but I've never seen or heard of this.

I would assume that to get buff colors, you are using white cement. Why would adding color to white cement make any difference to the color of later growth?

...not sure how much silica fume is or how much is needed.
Neptune,As far as price, $15 for 25# is standard, however if you can't find it locally, assume a $25 shipping charge will be attached to that. So getting it for $20 locally rocks.

I may still want to play with it, but I don't need 25# to play with. If anyone else would be interested in a smaller amount, say 5#, PM me - maybe we can do a group thing - Whoever gets it could sell small amounts via paypal, to others? Just a thought.

Cayars, I agree with pretty much everything you said in your post about rock and filtration, etc - so I don't need to be long winded. I just wanted you to know that those are pretty much my thoughts on it, and will add that I agree with this particular comment most especially:
I would never ever use a water-proof cement for making rock. The problem with this is that it "seel" the rock and makes it very hard for water to pass through it. This pretty much kills off the denitrifing abilities of the rock as a whole.
This is what I've been trying to get across on the thread, but I seem to have failed - you explained it in a way that I hope will allow others to understand why I think the waterproofs are fine for things like walls and plumbing, I don't think they will make good filtration rock...
EDIT: I know that by adding aggregates you can open the rock up some - that water will go through, but water won't be able to pass through the cement itself (the "seeling" effect mentioned) - only the channels made by adding the aggregate, and the channels will provide some places for bacteria, but not like having cement that, in itself, is porous will provide just by its nature, and provides those "dead" pockets that are really nice to have.

And Kurt, Welcome to the thread :)
Some people just seem to have a knack for it, others, like myself, have to struggle to get nice shapes.
I find that thinking of the piece I want as a multi-story house helps - each level has a different layout, and levels are important to nice rock, IMO.
Once you get something like damp sand in the box, make some divots in it with your fist - fill those with cement. Now carefully cover most of the sand and cement with more damp sand, adding cement to the places that you didn't cover with sand. Build those up a little if you want height, then add a bunch more sand, again leaving places with cement showing. As long as cement touches cement, you should be good to go.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10525077#post10525077 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
Sounds about right to me on the ratio by weight. Don't use volume!


I think this is where I'm getting hung up - the weight -vs- volume thing.
Our recipes, to make it simple, have always been addressed in "parts" - for example, I use a Chef Boyardee <sp?> Ravioli can - the large one. This is my measure for making rock - if I want more rock, I simply use more cans of my materials. I do know that the can holds about 3# of cement, and eye-balling, would say it holds about 3 cups of cement.

And when you were explaining how to figure out how much calcium would be needed, you said I should start using cups and spoons for measuring.

But you first said I'd need an ounce of calcium, but then had me using a measuring spoon to measure the dry powder.

I am so confused now...

[Kurt03]

Thanks for the welcome, been following the tread since its early days, just havent posted.

Thanks for the tips and info guys.
I will check that video out.

[mr.wilson]

I have used a few different water-proof cement mixes in the past, but my current one is quick-setting but not dense enough to hold water. None of the mixes sold as a water-proofing mix are water-proof once you add an aggregate. The aggregate (oyster shell in my case) assures that 50-75% of your rock will be as porous as live rock or better.

The product I use is intended to be used for quick patches of walkways etc. (thus the name Swift Patch). It's more dense than regular portland, due to the internal cure, but it's by no means water-proof. The dense nature of it adds surface area and reduces void space. This makes it superior for denitrification, and less efficient for nitrification.

When I fill the tanks for the first time, the water passes through the cement instantly. I can see it turn dark through the wall of the tank and pool in open pockets as it fills. The cement actually creates a capillary action, so the cement above the waterline turns dark (wet) about an inch above the water line as you fill it.

None of the mixes I have used are any more dense than Caribbean live rock and some South Pacific rock (Tonga branch rock).

This is the only a picture of Fiji and Haiti rock cores in my gallery, but it gives you an idea of what live rock looks like on the inside. Some rocks are much more dense than the stuff I produce. If you were to compare a cross-section of the stuff I use, regular portland, and live rock, you would see little difference. I'll post some better pictures tomorrow.

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_3445.jpg

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10525772#post10525772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I think this is where I'm getting hung up - the weight -vs- volume thing.
Our recipes, to make it simple, have always been addressed in "parts" - for example, I use a Chef Boyardee <sp?> Ravioli can - the large one. This is my measure for making rock - if I want more rock, I simply use more cans of my materials. I do know that the can holds about 3# of cement, and eye-balling, would say it holds about 3 cups of cement.

And when you were explaining how to figure out how much calcium would be needed, you said I should start using cups and spoons for measuring.

But you first said I'd need an ounce of calcium, but then had me using a measuring spoon to measure the dry powder.

I am so confused now...

Cement and additives really need to be measured by weight for accuracy if you want consistent results. I use a cup to measure by volume and see vast differences in work time and colour with each "identical" batch.

Part of my problem could be that the chemical reaction varies according to temperature, air flow and mixing speed.

I think for most of our use, a rough measurement will get the job done. It's not like building a skyscraper.

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10525772#post10525772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I think this is where I'm getting hung up - the weight -vs- volume thing.
Our recipes, to make it simple, have always been addressed in "parts" - for example, I use a Chef Boyardee <sp?> Ravioli can - the large one. This is my measure for making rock - if I want more rock, I simply use more cans of my materials. I do know that the can holds about 3# of cement, and eye-balling, would say it holds about 3 cups of cement.

And when you were explaining how to figure out how much calcium would be needed, you said I should start using cups and spoons for measuring.

But you first said I'd need an ounce of calcium, but then had me using a measuring spoon to measure the dry powder.

I am so confused now...

Yes thus far you have always talked in volume. A cup of this, a cup of that or 1 part this, one part that. However when you get to adding micro silica or calcium chloride you want to do that based on weight.

So what you do is make your normal mix based on volume but take you total volume of cement and put it on a scale and weigh it. Then add 2% and 5% accordingly based on weight of the other two items.

If you use the same measuring "cup" for each part you should only need to weigh your cement one time and you'll be able to figure out what 2% of calcium chloride looks like. Maybe it would be a shotglass or two. Same with micro silica. Once you figure out the weight you can find something to put it in like a shotglass and work on volume from then on.

It's a one time thing you need to do. I can't give a rough guess either because so many different people use different cements and the weigh different amounts.

Carlo

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10526194#post10526194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson

The product I use is intended to be used for quick patches of walkways etc. (thus the name Swift Patch). It's more dense than regular portland, due to the internal cure, but it's by no means water-proof. The dense nature of it adds surface area and reduces void space. This makes it superior for denitrification, and less efficient for nitrification.

When I fill the tanks for the first time, the water passes through the cement instantly. I can see it turn dark through the wall of the tank and pool in open pockets as it fills. The cement actually creates a capillary action, so the cement above the waterline turns dark (wet) about an inch above the water line as you fill it.

What you just said seems like opposites. If the cement you use causes less void space (not superior for denitrification - but bad) then how can the water pass right through it?

Maybe I just missed something but that doesn't make sense to me.

Carlo

[Insane Reefer]

I'm with Cayars with that - if I read his reply correctly, that is.

As I've said, this is a point of contention. Both sides have made their points - at this point, until scientific research is done on this specific rock topic, proving what is more beneficial, can we just agree to disagree and let folks make their own decisions on whether to use water-proof type cements or not?

This is one of those things that can get tempers stirred, and none of us really want that.

:D

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10526424#post10526424 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
What you just said seems like opposites. If the cement you use causes less void space (not superior for denitrification - but bad) then how can the water pass right through it?

Maybe I just missed something but that doesn't make sense to me.

Carlo

Less void space, but still there by all means. You would not be able to tell the difference between fast setting cement and standard portland with the naked eye.

It's just like you see in the pictures I posted, some of those rocks are better for nitrification, while others are better for denitrification, either way, rock work is not considered to be the primary site for pseudomonas. Larger void spaces will allow for a more aerobic environment that is conducive to the growth of nitrobacter (nitrifying bacteria). A tight pore matrix has more surface area.

Of the different media available, ceramic is reported to have the most surface area. Ceramic is much more dense than cement. I'll leave the discussion at that. The topic was discussed in the following thread and included water flow-through rates for rock (which are extremely slow). http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785612&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

I don't understand the instructions given by Reef Balls (are these the same Reef Ball artificial reef structures they sell to rock stars to dump in the ocean?). They advise to use micro-silica and calcium chloride to create fast setting cement, then advise you to cure it for 28 days anyway?

[mmm55645]

I wanted to post some pics of the rock I made after following this thread. I'm going to probably going to attach them together in the future.

these rocks have been dry curing in the air and have not been put in water to cure yet.

The branching rock is hydralic water stop cement and OS/CC, and the other rocks are portland #1 with sand and OS/CC in varying proportions.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/MMLR1-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/MMLR2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/MMLR3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/MMLR4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/MMLR5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/MMLR8.jpg
I made some other rocks for my FW tank that I won't discuss here since it would be heresy to discuss the FW tank on the reef board :) They were water stop cement and CC air cured for one week and cured in water for two weeks.

I also have some questions

can you use any sort of leaves in water while the rock cures to get some color stained on rock or should the leaves be oak? will other leaves be less colorful or should they not be used for some other reason? We have a tree with purple/red tint on the leaves I was wondering what that would do.

I have some grout that I would like to use but I do not know if it will be safe to use. can anyone advise me about the grout in the pic?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/grout.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/groutingred.jpg


one other thing: after MMLR has been in a reef tank for >1 year(assuming it is created to look like natural rock) will it look different from LR that comes from the ocean? I am have read that will will look the same once it is covered in coraline and also have read that it will never look the same as real rock.

thanks :)

[Insane Reefer]

I was curious about something, and need data, so posted a poll. This is a DIY Rock poll, and is intended to poll those who have made their rock within the last 3 years. Go read, and poll if appropriate :)

Thanks!

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1182073

[bigtex52]

mmm,

I would think that maybe the chromium oxide would be a cause for concern. I guess it would depend on what concentration is present.

[mmm55645]

oops I forgot to post the branching rock pics. I also forgot to mention that I built the rock around two pieces of pvc(incase it wasn't already obvious) I might built some more around the bottom so it doesn't look as circular.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/BR4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/BR3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/BR2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/BR1.jpg

[mmm55645]

big tex, I just want to use enough of the grout to change the color, not sure how much that would be.

[Insane Reefer]

MMM, Rhody would be the one to ask about leaves - he is a tree hugger and has played with leaves the most, I think ;)
FWIW, I'd try the red/purple tree, on at least one piece of rock for a test - pick the leaves and let them dry up first.
I can't see any tree common in the states being poisonous when used this way, but that is just a feeling, not based on anything concrete...
The only difference in the MMLR and Real after a year or so, is that the pieces you finally decide to use will probably be cooler looking than anything you usually see in the LFS's.

I'll let someone else comment on the grout - I'm not a grout fan, I like to control what sand is used, etc. I do see it lists chromium, which I think is considered toxic?

[Insane Reefer]

Nice pieces MMM! Especially the branchy ones - I can see the PVC now that you point it out, but other-wise I am not sure I would have noticed...

[bigtex52]

mmm,

It has been my experience that it takes a lot more of it that you would think. There is a lot more cement and silica than pigment in tile grout. If tinting is what you are after, you might try some of the concrete/mortar tinting pigments found at the big box stores. It takes far less of that to change the overall color. I know HD stocks Quikrete brand pigments in red, brown, and black.

[Insane Reefer]

Neptune, earlier, you mentioned trying to make a co2 chamber, of sorts. I was over at Wal-mart today and saw that they had small canisters of it over in sporting goods - $20 for a 12" canister meant to charge air guns. I think it even had a regulator with it...

This wouldn't be feasible I'm thinking for mass production, but might be a place to start as $20 wouldn't break the bank. I'd also think about something non-metallic for the chamber - I'm thinking for smaller test runs, one of those medium sized diaper pails - with snap on lid. Once you decide to go bigger, then I'd move up to a rubbermaid trash can - the large one's for the garage - those seal fairly well, and if the worst happens, at least it won't be aluminum shrapnel whizzing around...

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10527104#post10527104 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Less void space, but still there by all means. You would not be able to tell the difference between fast setting cement and standard portland with the naked eye.

It's just like you see in the pictures I posted, some of those rocks are better for nitrification, while others are better for denitrification, either way, rock work is not considered to be the primary site for pseudomonas. Larger void spaces will allow for a more aerobic environment that is conducive to the growth of nitrobacter (nitrifying bacteria). A tight pore matrix has more surface area.

Of the different media available, ceramic is reported to have the most surface area. Ceramic is much more dense than cement. I'll leave the discussion at that. The topic was discussed in the following thread and included water flow-through rates for rock (which are extremely slow). http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785612&perpage=25&pagenumber=2


OK put that way I can fully agree with that :)


I don't understand the instructions given by Reef Balls (are these the same Reef Ball artificial reef structures they sell to rock stars to dump in the ocean?). They advise to use micro-silica and calcium chloride to create fast setting cement, then advise you to cure it for 28 days anyway?

I found that ironic also. I wonder if that "advice" was just a standard "disclaimer" type thing to make sure the pH was ok. I can see some people asking them questions and then thinking something like "I'm not putting this in the ocean, it's going in my tank so I don't need all that stuff, I'll just use regular cement".

Carlo

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10526451#post10526451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
This is one of those things that can get tempers stirred, and none of us really want that.

:D

Agreed in general, but I don't think Mr. Wilson or I get bent out of shape if someone disagrees with us. If the other person is knowledgeable (in this case yes) then it can make you sit back and re-evaluate things.

Sometimes we take things for granted because we've been told how things work and never question it. A "light spirited" debate can challenge that thought pattern many times to the good as it brings something new to light you hadn't thought about or took into consideration.

Now if something becomes offensive or someone gets called dumb or stupid or "you don't know what you're talking about" type thing then that is a whole nother story...

Just for the record, I think Mr. Wilson has a lot of knowledge in general and specifically to the thread and I enjoy reading his responses and messages.

Carlo

[Izshocker]

I have read thru the 3 or 4 split this thread has had, so I know the basic orginal formula for the DIY rock.

How has the new and improved formula changed (and waht is the currnet) from the orginal morton's water softener salt & portland cement.

[sunkool]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10527143#post10527143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmm55645


I have some grout that I would like to use but I do not know if it will be safe to use. can anyone advise me about the grout in the pic?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/grout.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/m76263/groutingred.jpg


one other thing: after MMLR has been in a reef tank for >1 year(assuming it is created to look like natural rock) will it look different from LR that comes from the ocean? I am have read that will will look the same once it is covered in coraline and also have read that it will never look the same as real rock.

thanks :)

polyblend is reef safe. I have used it and if you look back a a few pages you will find see a rock made with this.

[sunkool]

http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/docs/msds/7200%20Polyblend%20Sanded%20Grout.pdf?user=diy&lang=en

[Insane Reefer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium

Gotta love Wiki. Seems most types of chromium are not considered toxic, and the type we would really need to worry about is used in some obscure printing technology - the type most likely used in the grout is "type III".

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10529293#post10529293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Izshocker
How has the new and improved formula changed (and waht is the currnet) from the orginal morton's water softener salt & portland cement.

Welcome to the thread, Izshocker!

Now you have a couple of choices for rock, based on your time-frame and how much effort you want to use.

You know Travis's Recipes, both are listed in the Super Long Post and well as the traditional Ol' Skool.

Two that are new are Perlcrete and Jiffy Rock.

Perlcrete is roughly an "Ol' Skool" adaptation - replace the crushed coral (or oyster shell) with perlite. No salt is needed, and in fact this rock should be made a tiny bit wetter than Ol' Skool or Salt Rock typically are - this stuff can become too porous, IMO. Like other methods, find what you like. If you look back a page or two, I list both mine and Neptunes preferred recipe - no one else has reported a recipe for it, so use ours as a guide and have fun with it.

Jiffy rock is simply a kuring method - so far it has been successful with all current recipes, with no problems (Salt rock does take longer to release, or so it seems). Jiffy Rock is a "baking" method. In reality, we would steam the rock at 200°F for about 6 hours, but since trying to produce that kind of steam in a captive environment is really hard to do at home, I've adapted the cement industries method, as best I can, to the home oven. It should be noted that this will totally kure the rock in about 7-10 days, however...
This method has been in testing for the last two months, and no problems have been found so far. There is a possibility that rock made with this method may experience a cement problem known as DEF. DEF can cause the rock to break-down over time - it may not be evident upfront, and it may never happen, but it is a possibility you should be aware of - it is also a possibility with Salt Rock, but it isn't as likely. That said, if you want more info, PM me with an email address, and I will send you the Jiffy Rock info.

Have fun and when you make some rock, post some pic's!
HTH

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10528912#post10528912 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
Agreed in general, but I don't think Mr. Wilson or I get bent out of shape if someone disagrees with us. If the other person is knowledgeable (in this case yes) then it can make you sit back and re-evaluate things.

Sometimes we take things for granted because we've been told how things work and never question it. A "light spirited" debate can challenge that thought pattern many times to the good as it brings something new to light you hadn't thought about or took into consideration.

Now if something becomes offensive or someone gets called dumb or stupid or "you don't know what you're talking about" type thing then that is a whole nother story...

Just for the record, I think Mr. Wilson has a lot of knowledge in general and specifically to the thread and I enjoy reading his responses and messages.

Carlo

I've been wrong about aquarium stuff for longer than most of the people on RC, so it doesn't bother me at all to be challenged.:)

I constantly re-evaluate my opinions and beliefs. That's why I post here.

I'm here to learn, and pass on what I've learned.

[Azazael13]

time for the huge post from IR I think, it has been far too many pages without one :)

[Insane Reefer]

v5.1

Hey All,
I'm going to post my favorite tips and links every so often so new people can find it all pretty easy. It is a summation of the most commonly asked questions and things I have picked up through making my batches. Some I’ve gleaned from this thread, others I’ve learned from past mistakes and experiments. I've been making DIY man-made rock or aragocrete off and on for close to 8 years. Lately, I have even made some money on my rocks.


This does not contain any information on "Jiffy Rock", the new method I am working on to produce rock in under a week or 10 days. This only pertains to traditionally cured rock methods.

I thought I’d pass this info on – maybe save someone some frustration or spark a new idea.

I will continue to refine and update this post as more info is added, and repost every so often.
:)


First, good info can be found at these two places - I think everyone who wants to make rock should read these in full. One of the articles gets pretty heavy handed with the science/chemistry aspect, the other babbles on tangents once in a while, but both are worth the read, IMO.
ARAGOCRETE RESEARCH BY TRACY GRAY (http://www.garf.org/news17p1.html)
Reef Propagation Project: (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6279/RaiseCementRock.html)

And this link is for Cement Colorant (http://stores.ebay.com/Olde-World-Concrete-Molds_Concrete-Colorant_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ14QQftidZ2QQtZkm). They sell it in small amounts in rainbow colors and are very cheap.

List of Appropriate Aggregates
Sand - caribbean/aragonite is best, but very hard to find at a reasonable price. Any “clean” sand will work. “Toys R Us” carries a play sand that a lot of folks use and report no trouble with. Limestone sand/Pulverized Limestone has gotten good results as a DSB, so should also work and can be found at some Big Box Stores like Home Despot. Sand Blasting sand can also be used and is sugar fine.
Crushed Coral - AKA "CC". Makes nice, realistic rock, but it is expensive.
Crushed Oyster Shell - AKA "OS". Any shell will work, but OS is very cheap at feed stores.
Calcium Carbonate - This stuff comes in a range of textures and grain size – from sand to gravel like CC. Most feed stores will carry it, and for less then $4/ #50.
Dolomite :D – Same as Calcium Carbonate, just another name (and slight chemical variation) and is just fine to use.
Perlite – has a pore structure similar to CC, but much, much cheaper – great for making light weight rock. It is basically inert, puffed glass.
Salt - Many thanks to Travis Stevens for figuring this out! The salt of choice is "Solar Salt Crystals", typically found as a Water Softener Salt. 99% pure salt. Get the coarsest crystals you can find. Solar Cube can be used, but is sort of chunky - makes nice holes though. Boiling the "cubes" rounds off the edges and makes nicer holes. Solar Pellets can also be used, same as Cubes. Look at your grocery stores or wally-worlds if your local hardware doesn't have what you want.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/125181salt-types.jpg

Rock Recipes
Ingredients are measured by volume, not weight!

Travis’ Original Recipe: 4:1 or 3:1 / Salt:Cement
Improved? Recipe: 3:1 or 2:1 / Salt:Cement
Ol' Skool Recipe: 1 to 1.5 : 2 :1 / Cement:CC&OS(mixed – or use perlite):Sand
Ol' Skool+ Recipe: 1: 1 to 1.5 : 1.5 :1 / Salt:Cement:CC&OS(mixed – or use perlite):Sand
Perlcrete Recipe: Same as Ol' Skool - replace CC or OS with perlite



Mix dry ingredients together first, excepting salt - add tiny amounts of water while vigorously mixing the slurry. Slurry should be “dry” and crumbly, not wet and squishy – there is a fine line between the two. A wet mix will not have as many natural voids in it, be less porous, and will also bind to the salt, making salt release more difficult. Once you have reached a slightly wetter mix then you think you need, lightly toss the salt into the mixture, and then mix it very quickly – the more salt that leeches off the crystals, the more deleterious the results can be. Be aware that a dry mix may give the illusion for the first week of being more brittle, but after a week or so, it toughens up and is nice and hard. After you make your rocks, they need to be kept moist and warm for a week or two to achieve the best hydration possible – though many do take their rock out and start salt release or kuring in 3 days or so, and haven’t reported any bad side effects. However, new info is starting to show that to put your cement in water before the 2 or three week range is needless – water doesn’t really start doing its job until the hydration is coming to a halt, so leave it sitting and save water and effort. Plastic bags, wet newspaper, wet casting materials and the like will help seal in moisture. If you think the rock might dry too quickly, mist it with a bottle or hose every so often.

Molding Material
Really, pretty much anything that is dry and crumbly/powdery will work. I've even used stuffing bread crumbles, but that draws bugs while it dries.

Soil
Salt
Sand
Clay

A certain portion of the molding material will remain on the rocks - this can usually be removed with a short acid bath, followed by a good scrubbing with a plastic or fine wire, bristle brush.

If you use Rubbermaid or Tupperware, you can reuse molding material over and over again. Line cardboard boxes with plastic to prevent moisture leak and wall collapse.

DO NOT Wet Salt, if it is used as a mold material - this means when working with salt, do not add water to the casting box as you would or might with say clay or sand.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I will list my tips and tricks, in no particular order. Many will seem stupid or like common sense, but you don’t know about some people’s kids, lol…

Tips and tricks

1. Wear gloves when making rock. If possible, don’t let the cement get on your skin, especially the dry powder. If possible, wear a painter’s mask when measuring and mixing dry cement; this stuff can really burn the inside of your nose.
2. Setup your work area in advance; cover surfaces with plastic or old sheets if needed (like in your kitchen or living room). Fill casting containers with whatever mold material you are using, or have it standing by within easy reach. Give yourself walkways if you are making a lot of rock – nothing sucks as much as trying to create enough work space after the fact. :(
3. Think about the weather for not only the day you cast, but the next few days as well, if you plan on doing this outside. Rain can make a mess of things…
4. Use Portland Type I, II (I/II) or III – these are known to be safe for use and make rock with proper porosity.
5. Mix all aggregates excepting salt into the cement before adding water. Add salt after you have reached the right wet consistency, and mix it in lightly – the less salt is leeched off the grains of salt, the stronger your final rocks will be. Water softener salt of the type “Solar Salt Crystals” works wonderfully (Thank you Travis Stevens!).
6. I prefer to use crushed coral and sand in my rocks for long term strength, plus salt to add porosity. The aggregates also give realistic details to the rock. My preferred recipe is 1.5 part cement + 1.5 part sand + 1 part crushed coral/shell mix + 1 part salt, but this is expensive to make. You can also use a mix of 1-1.5 cement + 1-2 crushed oyster shells + 1-2 salt.
Mainly, a 1 part cement to 3-4 parts “other” is acceptable, whatever you want to mix together is up to you and you should be ok if you follow the 1:3-4 part rule.
7. Work in layers for added dimension. If you lay a layer of molding stuff in your container, make a few divots in this molding layer first, and add cement to these first to make lumps on the bottom, you can avoid flat bottomed rocks. Now lay the main part of your rock, adding molding material as needed.
8. You can make neat “cliff-face” striations if you take a handful of salt, and lay it just along the top edge of wet cement, forming a narrow line of salt along the edge, laying a thin layer of cement over the salt, and repeating this to form, on the outer edge of your rock, a sort of cliff that looks to be cut by water action.
9. Anything cast thinner than an inch is likely to break, unless you are very careful with it.
10. Find a nice bit of stainless steel or aluminum wire – 2mm or so in width, and bend a handle for one end (remember you will probably be wearing gloves, so bend accordingly). As you cast your rock, use this wire to poke Lots of little tunnels all through the rock – all the way through if you can; this will make the rocks extra porous, and give bug life lots of places to hide and propagate in-tank, as well as allowing more water to move through the rock. Alternatively, you can cast the piece, and then poke as much of it as you can – though this way tends to look a bit contrived. I like the first way better.
11. Once your rock has cured and it has been curing for about a week and if you made it mixed with stuff like crushed coral or shells, mix up a weak acid mix and scrub the outside of your rocks with a stiff bristle brush. Be sure to take proper precautions when working with acid – not only from burns, but from fumes as well!!! If you only made your rock with salt and cement, ignore the acid wash, as your rocks might dissolve, but still give them a vigorous scrubbing - this will loosen the weakest stuff and get rid of it without shedding it all over your tank. If you have shells or coral, this can make the surface even more porous, and clean cement films from shells and the like that might be on the surface. I use a mixture of 1/2c muriatic acid added to 2c water.
12. You can make “lock together” pieces by wrapping a bit of PVC in something like tissue paper or plastic wrap, sticking it in the wet cement of “part a”, and then laying plastic wrap over and around the fresh cement/PVC, and then cast “part b”, making sure to get a good fit around the PVC join. I find this works, but I personally have an easier time if I cast “part a” with PVC set into it, let it cure, then wrap it well with whatever, and cast “part b”, and I can cast really large pieces this way.
13. “Cement Paint”. You can make up a slurry of cement and sand, say 1 part cement to 2 or 3 parts sand, made fairly thin and fairly wet and sloppy, and use it to decorate rock with “coralline algae”. I use white Portland, but I don’t see why white grout or mortar wouldn’t work as well. You can use cement colorants to color the cement any shade you desire. Working with a paintbrush, you can easily replicate the swirling patterns of coralline. I’ve also used this mix to paint/dry brush grey Portland rocks to white.
14. Branching rock/Coral skeletons. Pick PVC pipe a bit thinner than what you want your final piece to be. Cut into appropriate lengths, cutting one end flat and the other at an angle. Drill plenty of holes in the PVC to help the cement stick on. Drill extra holes on the very end that will allow you to tie the pieces onto the “main branch” with zip ties. You can bend PVC into believable shapes using heat from either a propane torch or a heat gun, and a couple of pairs of pliers (use appropriate precautions). After you have your PVC framework, mix a thicker blend of Cement Paint (less water, more cement) and paint/dip the skeleton, covering completely. I recommend hanging to dry, and dipping several times, using a paintbrush to smooth it out and prevent weird drips. When done coating, tie a grocery bag around the hanging piece to preserve moisture and allow to cure 48 hours or more.
15. Think about how corals come to you, as frags and whole colonies, and think about how hard it can be to attach these in your typical rock pile. Flatter surfaces and shallow bowls in larger rock shapes can make latter placement easier.
16. You can make rock “shells” if you want to avoid the rock pile look altogether and these are only limited to your imagination and size constraints. You can stuff the cavity in the back of this hollow construction with cheap $1.99/lbs rock, or whatever you want. I DO NOT recommend making these with the cement and salt only recipe! Make a form of some sort (use your imagination), put it in a box that will fit into your tank (making a rock too big for the target tank blows), and secure it to one side, or more (for multi-part casts) with duct tape. Line the rest of the box with plastic. I made my form from plastic grocery bags stuffed into a garbage bag, with a little air added, and taped that into the target box. Slowly build the shell wall (adding details as you wish), filling the box with salt/molding material, until you have the form covered with a fairly uniform covering of cement. LEAVE ALONE FOR A WEEK! Cover with plastic if you can. See my gallery for pictures of the “”Reef Face” or “Nessy”.
17. Frag Plugs. If you have extra cement at the end of the day, make frag plugs by using a mini muffin pan, and filling with ½in. of cement. Spray the pan with cooking spray for easier release. These can be put in a mesh bag and cured in the toilet tank.
18. Hate scraping the back wall of your tank? You can make thin, wall covering sheets, that can be glued with silicone to the back wall of your tank. Alternatively you could make shelves along those lines. I find casting on a sheet of glass covered in plastic works best for this. Also marking out the actual measurements of the back wall onto the glass helps to avoid sizing issues. I DO NOT recommend using the salt and cement only recipes for this application, nor the use of any salt at all! I also mix this just a little wetter than I normally use. Once you are setup, just drool the cement onto the covered glass. I tried doing large sheets, but these mostly were too weak to hold up and heavy. I find making smaller pieces (12inX12in or so) that abut like a puzzle work best, and sort of give the illusion of looking at a cracked and crevassed reef wall. After you cast these, they need to be kept moist and unmoved for 3 days, 7 days being much better. Believe me. They do. And you will need to mist them once a day. I just covered mine with a garbage bag and used a water bottle to mist it. I recommend an acid wash, as described above, once these have kured for a week.
19. If you make a rock or rocks you don't like, either use fresh cement mix to add some new bits, or break the rock up and use it as aggregate in your next batch - no waste is good.
20. The moister you can keep the cement while it cures, the harder the final rock will be - try wrapping it in a bag, or misting it while it cures. Supposedly, if you can let it sit for two to four weeks before starting to water kure, it will dramatically speed the kure time.
21. Dust your molding sand with oat flour for easy removal of surface sand. Thanks Rhody!
22. Mix molasses with your molding sand to give it more texture. Thanks Rhody!

Various things I have used and have worked for me for adding details:
1. Cemented Nylon String. Makes realistic tube worm/duster tubes. Make a thin paste of just cement, and dip small lengths of the sting in. Wipe excess off between fingers and lay onto the rock in desired figure.
2. Veggie Capsules. These can make little tunnels when laid end to end in the wet cement, and then covered with more cement. Or poke into outside edges to mimic polyp holes. Do NOT mix into the cement mix.
3. Nori Sheets. These can be wetted and formed into shapes or rolled into tunnels.
4. Balloons. Both the round and “animal” ones work. I find that filling them with water makes them stronger. Doubling them up works well too. Make sure that you can get the balloon out afterward - i.e. leave the knot sticking out.
5. Cardboard Rolls. Can be cut to form bracing, tunnels or for pillar shapes. Be sure to use it in such a way as will allow you to remove it after a few days of kuring. Hemostats work great for grabbing a-hold and pulling it out.
6. Tissue Paper. The white stuff you find in gift bags. Disintegrates quickly during kure. You can make little (or big) “salt bags”, that you can lay into the middle of larger rocks to give more holes for ‘pods and the like. Can be used to make caves and tunnels. Just use a small bit of paper, lay some salt in it and twist or tuck the ends – a small bit of cotton thread could be used to secure the package too.
7. Pasta. Must be cooked “Al Dente” before use. Do not mix into cement, it only makes a mess and is a pain to get out of the rock as it gets really hard and crunchy when the rock dries (ever scraped 3 day old pasta off a plate?).
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c133/lubricus/rock56756.jpg
Kured Rock that the pasta is stuck in...
Use to add spaces in the rock, or tunnels with spaghetti (at your own risk). Rigatoni adds a nice effect if placed just right. If you use pasta, you MUST keep the rock moist at all times – if the pasta dries, it will most likely never come out, ever.
8. Jelly. No, not like PB&J, but those toys, etc made of the product known as silicone jelly – often comes in wiggly balls. Also fishing bait worms made of the jelly/rubber. No need to lube them – they will release just fine.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/125181tunnel-stuff2.jpg

Things that DO NOT work:
1. Vinegar/acid kuring. Does have its uses, but don’t expect it to kure your rock – it won’t.
2. Bio-degradable packing peanuts/Cheesy-poofs. I can find no way to really use these that is also safe for the tank.
3. Fish food pellets. That was really, really nasty. I don’t want to go there.
4. Uncooked Pasta. As pasta absorbs water, it expands, causing the cement to fracture and crack – cook it al dente if you really want to use it.
5. Alka-Seltzer . Doesn’t work. It dissolves too quickly.
6. Yeast. Doesn't work. pH kills the cells before they can respirate. Though during the Kure, this might be a speed option.
7. Co2. Ok – it does work, but only under high pressure. Adding into H2O will only make soda pop (carbonic acid), and eat away at your rock, causing fresh, high pH surfaces to be revealed.

Salt Release
If you used salt in your rock, it must be removed before kuring can happen. Salt will release in hot water much easier than it will in cold water, and boiling water works best of all. It generally takes two days to two weeks to remove salt, based on factors such as wetness of the slurry, aggregates used and density of the cast piece. Removing the salt will take several water changes. Boiling is also a viable option, and may also help reduce pH - hydrogen carbonate ions can decompose forming insoluble calcium (or magnesium) carbonate, which then are flushed away.

If you aren’t sure that the salt is gone, you can do a “Taste Test”. After draining and rinsing the rock (pick your largest/thickest piece), allow the water to drain out for a few minutes. Pick the rock up and use your finger to catch a drip of water from the bottom of the rock and taste it. If there is still salt present, the water drop will be salty. If the salt is gone, the drop will taste of mineral water and very slightly sweet.

Rock Kuring
Kuring your rock is the next hurdle. It is really, really best to leave your rock alone for at least a week before starting this step. According to Quikcrete reps, it takes 7-14 days for the rock to stop curing/hardening (though this process is actually going on for a lot, lot longer) - even though it looks and feels done. Testing standards say it takes 28 days to reach full strength and before testing for commercial applications can commence. By putting your rock in the kure bin too soon, you are wasting a lot of water, prolonging the hydration process and making weaker rock. Rocks during this 2-4 week period will naturally loose pH - from 12-13 at casting time down to 9-10, with NO WATER USED. I theorize that rock left longer, like 5 weeks, will only need a week or so of kure time (and a lot less water and effort!).

Kuring is pretty straight forward. Lots of time, and lots of water changes with adequate water volume, unless you have access to a reasonably clean waterway. This step is dramatically decreased if you wait until the 4-5 week range of your rocks life. Powerheads help force water through the rock and help the insides kure out. Adding heat to the bucket, upwards of 90°F will speed things along.

When your bucket kured rock quits leeching out white scum on the surface of the water, and stops leaving a white residue on the bottom of the bucket and on the rocks themselves, you can start checking for pH. Rock has been known to kure in as little as 2 weeks, but most bucket/bin kured rock takes 6-8 weeks to reach safe levels – some will take up to 3 months. Be prepared to wait.

To properly test for pH, change the water – use saltwater – saltwater is preferred since this is what the rock will be sitting in for the rest of its life. Feel free to use old water from a tank change, just test the pH prior to use. Let the rock sit in this for 3-4 days without air or powerheads – you want still, stagnant water for this. After the 3-4 days, give the water a bit of a stirring and check pH with appropriate test kit. If it is in the acceptable range of 8.0 to 8.6, it is probably safe to use. If not, continue to kure.

You can use any acceptable pH testing method. The test you use should have a testing range of 5-10 at a minimum. I like using Litmus Paper. It can read pH from 1-14, and is fairly easy to read. Litmus paper can be gotten at “Hobby Lobby” for $3.89 per 100 strips. These can also be used to test your reefs’ pH ;) Litmus can also be found at pharmacies, online, and at other full service hobby stores, usually in the section that has things like “Magic Crystals”, and horseshoe/bar magnets – the “Science Section”.

Once kuring has finished - reads between 7 and 8.6 on pH, your rock can be used :)
If added to a newly established tank, you can go ahead and put it all in at once. If the tank is older, with inhabitants, you may wish to add a rock or two at a time, to allow the system to “settle” between each addition. Maintain pH testing for the first two weeks and buffer if needed.

Expect an algae bloom. :eek1:
A few people, those who either have waterways to kure in, or those with really butch systems have reported no algae blooms, but I suspect they are the exception, not the rule. If your tank blooms, don’t panic. Most tanks bloom within the maturation period anyway. Double check your system for things like NO2 and NO3, and other algae causing symptoms and correct anything that isn’t up to snuff. Take all the normal steps to curtail the growth, but then just ride it out. If the bloom is caused by the rocks, the algae will soon deplete the readily available nutrients and starve itself out. If it doesn’t go away within a few months, then you should check into other reasons for the bloom.
New Tip! If you place your rock in tank with low light for two weeks to a month, you can avoid most of the bright green covering algae – low lights allow the rock to settle in without being attacked by algae so badly…

Well, I think that about covers my repertoire. I apologize for the length of this post, but hopefully some of you will find something of use…

I encourage the rest of you to take some time to write up your experiences and tips and share them with us – by sharing our experiences, we all learn and get better and better at making our own rock.

Good Luck, and Rock On!
:rollface:

[Neptune777]

I might try this later as an experiment....but with easily accessable Silica Fume and Calcium Chloride it might not be needed. I have several CO2 bottles for my calcium reactor so I have a ready supply on hand.

If I try this I would use a Brute Trashcan with a sealed lid. Put the rocks in, fill with CO2, and seal the lid. Somehow I think this will be more effort than it's worth.....




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10527750#post10527750 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Neptune, earlier, you mentioned trying to make a co2 chamber, of sorts. I was over at Wal-mart today and saw that they had small canisters of it over in sporting goods - $20 for a 12" canister meant to charge air guns. I think it even had a regulator with it...

This wouldn't be feasible I'm thinking for mass production, but might be a place to start as $20 wouldn't break the bank. I'd also think about something non-metallic for the chamber - I'm thinking for smaller test runs, one of those medium sized diaper pails - with snap on lid. Once you decide to go bigger, then I'd move up to a rubbermaid trash can - the large one's for the garage - those seal fairly well, and if the worst happens, at least it won't be aluminum shrapnel whizzing around...

[Neptune777]

"Neptune,As far as price, $15 for 25# is standard, however if you can't find it locally, assume a $25 shipping charge will be attached to that. So getting it for $20 locally rocks."

Seems to be a decent deal....I will be picking some up this week.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10531674#post10531674 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I might try this later as an experiment....but with easily accessable Silica Fume and Calcium Chloride it might not be needed. I have several CO2 bottles for my calcium reactor so I have a ready supply on hand.
...Somehow I think this will be more effort than it's worth.....

My guy over in england and I have been talking (he still hasn't replied to my original email though - lack of time), and this is something he wrote on Friday:
"What you need is to make calcium carbonate. Concrete carbonates naturally, but slowly. Carbonation advances at the rate of the square root of time, so it starts off fast and then slows down.
To fully carbonate will take maybe a year, but you only need the pore surfaces to carbonate. After a few weeks you should have a calcium carbonate surface maybe 100µm thick and that may be enough to prevent much alkali escaping."


On a side note, I think you will need more then just add some co2 to the "chamber" - I think, from what I've read and heard, that the co2 will be depleted fairly quickly, so having it one a regulator will allow a slow "trickle" of co2 into the chamber. I don't think you need to get fancy - just open the co2 to like where you can just see the needle move, and set it directly in the can. That would be how I'd start out...
Might write Terry and ask how long it might take to get the 100µm thick layer that Nick says we need, if using a simple chamber?

Calcium Carbonate is the key - as I've been saying. Co2 turns hydrated cement into calcium carbonate, and we know a chamber will cause the reaction, so I don't think it will be a waste of effort.

Keep in mind that the micro-silica is a catch 22 - it binds the pH (or whatever it does), but in doing so, it blocks the pores and capillaries that we desire. So maybe using th Calcium Chloride and a co2 chamber might make better rock...

[cayars]

True but you're not using so much micro silica to worry about this especially since we are mixing in other stuff like sand, CC, CO, perlite etc...

BTW, instead of going 5% on the micro silica you could try 2% or 3% by weight to see what effect it has on pH and base your decision on the quality of rock and length of kure time.

Just a thought,
Carlo

[mr.wilson]

As stated in my earlier post, you can buy a controller and regulator with a solenoid to dose Co2. The controller can turn a Co2 generator (propane burner) or Co2 bottle solenoid, on and off to maintain a pre-set level of atmospheric Co2.

A cheaper electronic "sniffer" can be used with an LED display for manual dosing (propane burner or Co2 bottle). A timer can be employed to get a shotgun dose of Co2, once you can ballpark the amount of gas needed. For example, it may need to come on for 10 minutes four times per day.

Alternatively, you could measure atmospheric Co2 with a syringe test kit. This is the cheapest method, but still about $5.00 per test. Manual testing with a syringe style test kit should be reserved for periodic testing to establish the supply and demand for gas.

Co2 gas is much heavier than atmospheric air, so a fan should be used to mix the gas (lift it off of the floor). If you are only doing a small batch this may work out better anyway, as the Co2 would linger on the bottom of the container or room where the rocks are located. Larger batches would be more efficient in a stacked or tiered fashion.

Another, albeit impractical, method of acquiring Co2 gas is through the dissolution of calcium carbonate (marble) with acid. Mixing water, yeast and sugar can also generate Co2 gas.

Have you tried sugar cubes in your rock or fine sugar in the mix? Sugar is a source of carbon, so is alcohol, but it would be a shame to waste good high test vodka "on the rocks". :)

[Izshocker]

Well, I just did my first batch. All I can say for now is, boy is it a learning experience. We'll see how this batch come out.

I went with a recipe of 1:1:3; portland: playsand: salt

I saw Home Depot has Crushed & Pulverized Limestone, is this a better option then the playsand.

I used playsand as my mold material.

First Batch curing out on the deck
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/Izshocker/First%20batch%20of%20DIY%20live%20rock/DSC02733.jpg

[SNTLewis]

Late to the discussion...

Fumed Silica is used in the composite industry to thicken resins. It can be obtained in smaller quantities from places like
West Marine, USBoat, etc.

Look for "collodial silica", or a tradename Cab-o-Sil.

comes in 1lb cans.

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536313#post10536313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Izshocker
Well, I just did my first batch. All I can say for now is, boy is it a learning experience. We'll see how this batch come out.

I went with a recipe of 1:1:3; portland: playsand: salt

I saw Home Depot has Crushed & Pulverized Limestone, is this a better option then the playsand.

I used play-sand as my mold material.

First Batch curing out on the deck
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/Izshocker/First%20batch%20of%20DIY%20live%20rock/DSC02733.jpg

It looks like you used builders (brick sand) playsand and not aragonite (white, tropical) playsand. The stuff you used is quartz-based and had no buffering capacity, molecular absorption capability, and far less surface area (smaller pore matrix). Pour some acid (vinegar) on the sand and see if it fizzes. If it doesn't, then throw it away.

It also looks like your mix is too wet. That's why it's flat like a "cow pie". If your salt was too fine or you over-mixed it, the cement mix will become smooth and wet like that.

[Izshocker]

AH #$%^@%^@@!!! Well as I said learning experience.
I didn't see any white sand at Home Depot, can I use crushed limestone in place of sand?

[mr.wilson]

It depends on what kind of limestone it is. The stuff at HD will have high levels of quartz (silica) and heavy metals, while limestone from a farm supply store will be closer to pure calcium carbonate as it is used as a calcium supplement for chickens and other birds.

Calcium carbonate is chalky, while silica has a glassy sparkle. Dolomite is calcium carbonate with more magnesium. It's better than silica, but not as good as aragonite.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536180#post10536180 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Sugar is a source of carbon, so is alcohol, but it would be a shame to waste good high test vodka "on the rocks". :)

Is there such a thing as "good" vodka?

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536606#post10536606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
It looks like you used builders (brick sand) playsand and not aragonite (white, tropical) playsand. The stuff you used is quartz-based and had no buffering capacity, molecular absorption capability, and far less surface area (smaller pore matrix). Pour some acid (vinegar) on the sand and see if it fizzes. If it doesn't, then throw it away.

It also looks like your mix is too wet. That's why it's flat like a "cow pie". If your salt was too fine or you over-mixed it, the cement mix will become smooth and wet like that.

I agree on the "too wet", but I thought we had all gotten over "it has to be aragonite"?

Remember, we agreed that most people aren't relying on rock to buffer, or don't care if it can, so we would not harp on what sand someone uses - calcium sand may be almost impossible for some to find, barring $40 at the LFS, and you go through quite a bit of sand to make a pile of rock. Grip that he used brown, not on his choice of materials, especially when really, there is nothing wrong with it - just not the "best" to use...

Pretty much any sand will do Izshocker - don't throw your sand away, unless you decide to do so yourself, because brown sand on grey looks really, really bad - not because Mr Wilson told you to...

Personally, I'd have just stuck to the pulverized limestone all the way around - it is a little more expensive, but the color is closer to the cements' own color and won't look so odd. Also, in the future, if you cover the rock with damp sand, they get more evenly layered in sand deposits and the damp sand will aid in reducing evaporation, and give you a better cure.

FWIW

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536795#post10536795 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
It depends on what kind of limestone it is. The stuff at HD will have high levels of quartz (silica) and heavy metals, while limestone from a farm supply store will be closer to pure calcium carbonate as it is used as a calcium supplement for chickens and other birds.

I understand where you are coming from, and at one point agreed, but after seeing Travis's and his groups DSB's and the others who have used it, using the HD pulverized limestone, and hearing no reports of trouble, I've reversed my opinion.

Though the chick gravel is cheeper - and I can't get crushed limestone, so I use the chick grit.

[Insane Reefer]

Iz, on you're next batch, try adding a lot less water. When you use a lot of salt in the mix (3 parts), the dryer the mud, the easier the salt is to get out in the end - you will be forever getting the salt out of those babies. What you made would work pretty good for a sidewalk though :)
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/th_P1010421.jpg (http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/?action=view&current=P1010421.flv)
This might help you see what you are going for texture/moisture wise.

Sorry it is so orange - that is the best my digi can do in the garage under fluorescent lights...

[mr.wilson]

Choose your materials based on chemistry, biology, aesthetics, convenience and price. In that order.

All of these issues have been adequately covered within this thread.

[Insane Reefer]

Or in whichever order is important to you...

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536393#post10536393 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SNTLewis
Late to the discussion...

Fumed Silica is used in the composite industry to thicken resins. It can be obtained in smaller quantities from places like
West Marine, USBoat, etc.

Look for "collodial silica", or a tradename Cab-o-Sil.

comes in 1lb cans.

Wonder if someplace if HobbyTown would have it for the RC boats?

Thanks for that info - good to have and probably easier to come by for most people.

I called 8 places, in a 75 mile radius on Friday, looking for powdered aluminum and micro-silica. One guy said that silica was a sand, and yeah, we got that - but I pointed out what I wanted was basically powdered silica, and he said folks don't use that in cement - sure you ain't wantin' a ceramics store? And no one had even heard of powdered aluminum...:rolleye1:

[bigtex52]

mr. wilson,

You can't make a blanket statement like that about HD's crushed limestone containing heavy metals and quartz without having something to back it up.

First of all, I doubt very seriously if the Pavestone brand of crushed limestone, which HD sells in Texas, Oklahoma and other surrounding states, ever makes it as far north as Ontario. It is mined, processed and bagged right here in north Texas. We have a huge number of natural and pure limestone deposits that are at or near the surface.

Second, it has been tried, tested and proven that this makes a good substrate by a large number of reefers in our area.

Not trying to be contentious, just dispel what I perceive to be a statement of unsubstantiated personal opinion rather than fact.

[sunkool]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536606#post10536606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
It looks like you used builders (brick sand) playsand and not aragonite (white, tropical) playsand. The stuff you used is quartz-based and had no buffering capacity, molecular absorption capability, and far less surface area (smaller pore matrix). Pour some acid (vinegar) on the sand and see if it fizzes. If it doesn't, then throw it away.

It also looks like your mix is too wet. That's why it's flat like a "cow pie". If your salt was too fine or you over-mixed it, the cement mix will become smooth and wet like that.

What a joke.
Izshocker Don't throw away your rocks. Yes they may dry more solid than it is suposed to but it will be fine to use at the bottom of your pile. Use less water next batch.
As for buffering capacity it has been proven that by the time your rock is needed to provide buffering it is to late.
I have been using silica sand for my live rock, and it is plenty porous. No need to use anything diffrent.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10537506#post10537506 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
... the Pavestone brand of crushed limestone, which HD sells in Texas, Oklahoma and other surrounding states, ever makes it as far north as Ontario.

Heck - it's never made it as far north as Missouri, lol.

[Izshocker]

I agree that this batch I'll be trying to get the salt out for months. I'm trying my hand at all this, to get the feel and get it down before I really need the rock. The tank, I putting together won't happen for months. It's a matter of stockpiling equipment & DIY rock till I have everything I want.

This bacth may already be destined to being broken up and being used in the sump or fuge.

I had the mix about that crumbly but it seemed to be turning very solid, really really fast on my, so i added more water, too much and then adding more cement, and then panicked and started slopping it into the sand.

Oh well, live and learn.

Thanks for the help guys and gals,

Israel

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10537506#post10537506 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
mr. wilson,

You can't make a blanket statement like that about HD's crushed limestone containing heavy metals and quartz without having something to back it up.

First of all, I doubt very seriously if the Pavestone brand of crushed limestone, which HD sells in Texas, Oklahoma and other surrounding states, ever makes it as far north as Ontario. It is mined, processed and bagged right here in north Texas. We have a huge number of natural and pure limestone deposits that are at or near the surface.

Second, it has been tried, tested and proven that this makes a good substrate by a large number of reefers in our area.

Not trying to be contentious, just dispel what I perceive to be a statement of unsubstantiated personal opinion rather than fact.

Sure I can make that statement, and I'm happy to back it up. The umbrella term of "limestone" only means that at least 50% of the mineral content is calcium carbonate, so "pure limestone" doesn't mean a heck of a lot. The other 50% will vary according to geography and geology, quartz and heavy metals (also known as trace elements in the aquarium hobby) are a major part of this other 50% or less.

Home depot carries construction grade limestone or dolostone (more magnesium), not pure calcium carbonate. Take a look at it, you can see quartz in it. You can also see metallic veins and rust (iron) in some granules.

We're not talking about a lab grade mineral here. It's for paving and making concrete foundations and walls, not for human consumption.

All kinds of materials have been used for aquascaping and substrate. Plastics, lava rock, and silica are commonly used, but the success rates are much lower.

You can buy oolitic limestone from quarries in the Eastern USA. I'm not sure what they dig out of Texas, but I have dolostone on my property, and live a mile away from a quarry that has been mining it continually for over 50 years.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10537718#post10537718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
I'm not sure what they dig out of Texas...

Really bad politicians?

[cayars]

If it makes any difference to anyone, I'd agree not to use limestone (because of metal content) but don't see any problem with silicia based sand. It's been used for years & years in reefs.

I have about a thousand pounds of it in my system.

Carlo

[cayars]

If it makes any difference to anyone, I'd agree not to use limestone (because of metal content) but don't see any problem with silicia based sand. It's been used for years & years in reefs.

I have about a thousand pounds of it in my system.

Randy has a good article on it and even suggests it could be better for many people then argonite sand. Otherwise many people should probably test and dose silica when needed.

Carlo

[Neptune777]

If they are using it locally in his area without issues then I am sure it is safe......However, Just like everything else... caveat emptor.

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10537507#post10537507 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunkool
What a joke.
Izshocker Don't throw away your rocks. Yes they may dry more solid than it is suposed to but it will be fine to use at the bottom of your pile. Use less water next batch.
As for buffering capacity it has been proven that by the time your rock is needed to provide buffering it is to late.
I have been using silica sand for my live rock, and it is plenty porous. No need to use anything diffrent.

It's no joke. My suggestion was to add less water next time so the rock wouldn't turn out so flat. The video that IR posted was helpful in conveying this point as well. I made no mention of how solid the rock was.

I stand by my original "cowpie" comment. If this was the look that was desired, then I offer my apologies and respect individual preference. Some prefer white rock, while others prefer grey. The brown building sand will render a grey colour, not a brown colour as some would speculate.

I believe Izshoker took the "playsand" ingredient in the recipe as meaning any playsand, and not the "Southdown playsand" that is commonly used.

Your assessment of buffering capacity is based on calcite (crushed coral), not aragonite. Aragonite will not keep up to the demand for calcium in most reef tanks, but it offers bioavailable calcium, carbonates, magnesium, and trace elements (heavy metals) that are continually utilized.

Aragonite dissolves in water anywhere below 8.4 PH. The dissolution rate is diminished after bio-films cover the rock, but a localized acidity is generated by bacteria, freeing up minerals for their physiology.

Aragonite will buffer alkalinity and PH to NSW (natural sea water) levels without the need for chemical dosing in most cases. Dick Perrin at Tropicorium uses aragonite sand exclusively to buffer his water with no chemical dosing of any elements necessary. There are lots of studies to back these claims up.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature

[Neptune777]

Carlo, thanks for the extra info on the Micro Silica....I will be picking some up this week to play with.

[Insane Reefer]

Ah, I see you removed the Isreal bit, lol. :D

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10537900#post10537900 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
The brown building sand will render a grey colour, not a brown colour as some would speculate.
Mixed in, yes, I agree, but it has been my experience that whatever color your casting sand is, will still be that color when the rock is done - some sand sticks to the outside when you use sand to cast into, and this sand is plainly visible once the rock is done. So if you use brown sand to cast into, you will have brown sand stuck to your rock when you are done...
That is why I have been enjoying the blasting sand - it is finer then sugar fine, and almost disappears into the surface of the cement - grey or white.

I believe Izshoker took the "playsand" ingredient in the recipe as meaning any playsand, and not the "Southdown playsand" that is commonly used.

If southdown or anything like it was still left in the US, I think this conversation would be moot - that's what we would all be using. However, because of trade restrictions, you won't see much aragonite in the hardware stores. I believe there is just one plant in the whole US that packages it, and it is supposedly available in the PA area and possibly surrounding states. Otherwise, it is the small, expensive bag from the LFS...

[SNTLewis]

HobbyTown may have it as there are several "fillers" used in resin products, some are really nasty (like milled glass fibers, etc).

I've had better luck at the marine boating stores. Go online to WestMarine.com... look up #406 collodial silica.

Also aluminum powder is #420 aluminum powder... not so sure about this one's usability.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10537974#post10537974 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SNTLewis
HobbyTown may have it as there are several "fillers" used in resin products, some are really nasty (like milled glass fibers, etc).

I've had better luck at the marine boating stores. Go online to WestMarine.com... look up #406 collodial silica.

Also aluminum powder is #420 aluminum powder... not so sure about this one's usability.

I'll definitely look into that - we have a couple of boating stores locally, so will check there first, but from what I can find, powdered aluminum is powdered aluminum. I'll ask the Nick, cement guy in england if he thinks that will work...

Thanks for the info!!!

[mr.wilson]

You're right IR, the casting material will stick out like a soar thumb, making the rock brown.

[Insane Reefer]

I love eBay.
:inlove:

http://search.ebay.com/aluminum-powder_W0QQfnuZ1QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ3QQxpufuZx

The boating place had it for $20 a pound. eBay has it for half the price...

[Insane Reefer]

Neptune - would you be willing to part with 5# of that silica? I'll gladly pay the shipping, and 1/5th of the total after tax.

PM me if you will :)
Thanks!

[Neptune777]

PM sent.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10538352#post10538352 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Neptune - would you be willing to part with 5# of that silica? I'll gladly pay the shipping, and 1/5th of the total after tax.

PM me if you will :)
Thanks!

[Insane Reefer]

Sweet :)
Thanks!

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10538153#post10538153 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I love eBay.
:inlove:

http://search.ebay.com/aluminum-powder_W0QQfnuZ1QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ3QQxpufuZx

The boating place had it for $20 a pound. eBay has it for half the price...

I think I missed something. What are you using the aluminum powder for? I wouldn't intentionally add metals to my rock and worry about it leaching in the tank. Aluminum is one of the metals you have to watch out for because it becomes toxic at low levels.

Carlo

[Insane Reefer]

Sorry, Cayars. Let me clarify. A while back, while looking for other ways to get really porous rock, I found something called "powdered aluminum" - it reacts with the cement during hydration and produces a ton of microscopic bubbles. I asked Nick about it, and this was his reply:
b) Use autoclaved air-entrained concrete, the stuff full of bubbles also known as aircrete, used to make lightweight blocks. This is made using aluminium powder which reacts with the alkaline cement mixture to give hydrogen, sort of like making bread. The aluminium content is fairly low - there is more in the cement than in the powder overall.

I'm thinking that this might be an excellent way to counter the microsilica's filling of the pores.
Plus, this stuff supposedly "expands", sort of like "Great Stuff", so this might be fun to play with...

[airinhere]

Hey guys, I have been away from this thread for a while, but I am opening a thread called, Lets see your ultimate DIY rocks!!!! I think it would be nice to showcase some of these pieces so other people can get inspiration about how to sculpt their stuff. (Plus I like to post pics)

[Insane Reefer]

Post it, baby ;)

[cayars]

Insane Reefer,

If you happen to find any Portland that ends in an "A" you could use that too. IE IA, IIA. Those are air-entrained concrete.

Tried it and had mixed feelings about it. Not sure how to describe the outcome except to say the "pop marks" it creates didn't look right or should I say had a different look. I liked it, but didn't like it at the same time.

I was moving some fiji rock yesterday in my sump (yep got real rock to) and picked up a piece and thought (sh*t rock) but then when I flipped it over it had lots of pores (almost pop marks). The other side was almost completely smooth with no pores. I then looked at a few rocks and noticed patterns like this on some rock. Many rocks have different textures to it depending on the side you look at.

I'm not sure the point of me mentioning this except to say our rock doesn't have to have to have only one texture but could have a blend.

For example we could make a smaller then needed "pop rock" with the type air-entrained concrete and then go back and "drip" type I/II over top which will create some crevices and mounds, etc and still leave plenty of the "pops marks".

This would give a couple of textures and if you waited say a 7-10 days between stages the pH will drop a lot faster after the 2nd cement job since the "inside rock" has already hydrated a lot.

Just thinking out loud but haven't tried this. Gonna have to try this for kicks and giggles next weekend.

Carlo

[Insane Reefer]

Will keep that in mind, Cayars :)
For some reason, when I mix calcium chloride with the white cement, I can't do two-stage pieces :sad2: - the second stage always pops off. So I'd be more likely to mix two batches at the same time, and mix and match as I go.

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10537813#post10537813 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Really bad politicians?

From what I have seen ours aren't any worse than everybody elses :rolleyes:

[Neptune777]

Well I talked with my local merchant again and as it turns out the have 100# bags of Micro Silica for epoxy called "Epoxy Sand" for $13.95.....Even better price than $20 for 25#....that they quoted before.

Here is an interesting page for epoxy additives that could also be used in cement (good info on Micro Silica)........look at the microspheres (these look interesting as well)

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/f_mixin.html

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10540692#post10540692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Will keep that in mind, Cayars :)
For some reason, when I mix calcium chloride with the white cement, I can't do two-stage pieces :sad2: - the second stage always pops off. So I'd be more likely to mix two batches at the same time, and mix and match as I go.

Get some concrete glue the bottle that looks like elmers school glue paint some on where you are adding the new batch. Make sure loose material has been removed and you may want to add a bit more of the glue to the new batch.

[Neptune777]

Here is a great pdf on Silica Fume...loads of info!

http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~paulmont/165/silica_fume.pdf

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10541628#post10541628 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by badfish03
Get some concrete glue the bottle that looks like elmers school glue paint some on where you are adding the new batch. Make sure loose material has been removed and you may want to add a bit more of the glue to the new batch.

Wouldn't the glue result in a more waterproof mix?

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10541626#post10541626 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Well I talked with my local merchant again and as it turns out the have 100# bags of Micro Silica for epoxy called "Epoxy Sand" for $13.95.....Even better price than $20 for 25#....that they quoted before.

Hmmm. I would be leery - why is that so much cheaper than regular microsilica? The "sand" part makes me wonder if it is in a fine enough particle to do the same job as what is recommended.

You'd think places like ReefBalls would have been all over something like that, if it would work...

[michaelalan]

After a lot of work I found the Grace 10,000 densified micro-silica, 25# for $25 plus shipping. This is the same stuff Reefballs use. Don’t remember how much shipping was.

My first attempt was with Fast Set Quikrete and 10% micro-silica, by volume, not weight, and there was no difference in pH from the test piece.

Carlos suggested using weight over volume in another tread and that might make the difference.

Before I do another test with the densified micro-silica, I am going to do a capillary test on the some Rapid Set Quikrete (not the correct brand name) that Dr Wilson is using. If that stuff has a quick turn around as he says then I’ve found my recipe. I am super busy with work right now so I would not have anything to report for a while.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10541907#post10541907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michaelalan


After a lot of work I found the Grace 10,000 densified micro-silica, 25# for $25 plus shipping. This is the same stuff Reefballs use. Don’t remember how much shipping was.
Why didn't you order it from ReefBalls themselves??? They sell it and the price is $15 plus shipping...

Before I do another test with the densified micro-silica, I am going to do a capillary test on the some Rapid Set Quikrete (not the correct brand name) that Dr Wilson is using.

What is a "Capillary Test"?

[michaelalan]

Reefballs didn't tell me they sold it.

A capillary test is when you place a drop of water on the concrete, if it beads up, it's what proof. It the water is absorbed by the concrete and travels up (away from gravity) then it has capillary action.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10541879#post10541879 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Hmmm. I would be leery - why is that so much cheaper than regular microsilica? The "sand" part makes me wonder if it is in a fine enough particle to do the same job as what is recommended.

You'd think places like ReefBalls would have been all over something like that, if it would work...


I thought the same thing so I inquired more about what it is.........turns out it is not the same stuff. So my original supply is what I am going with (Euclid brand Silica Fume).

[bigtex52]

Neptune,

I would be wary of the "Fumed silica". Unless they are misapplying the term to Silica Fume, I don't believe that is the product we need in this application. I have seen several places that reiterate that Fumed Silica is not Silica Fume, most recently, the link you provided at Berkeley regarding Silica Fume. Just a heads up...

[bigtex52]

Oops, looks like you discovered that before my post. Sorry.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10542129#post10542129 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michaelalan
Reefballs didn't tell me they sold it.
LOL, Typical.
http://www.reefball.com/pricing.htm
Halfway down the page, under "Additives" - thaough have fun with their order form - I think the person who made it must have been on acid or something. Maybe it makes more sense when you print it...

A capillary test is when you place a drop of water on the concrete, if it beads up, it's what proof. It the water is absorbed by the concrete and travels up (away from gravity) then it has capillary action.

Ok, you mean "waterproof"? I don't get "travels up". The only way I can think that water would travel "up" in this application would be if you held the rock up and put the water on the bottom of the rock?

I think I understand what you are saying, just trying to clarify.

And in all my time researching cement (last 6 months), I've never seen anything about this. So I just googled it - and now I know why I've not noticed it before - it is typically a "construction" type of test, and I was delving more into chemistry.
It does support what I was trying to say on page 12 of this split though:
Polymer and epoxy fortified cements (and one would assume grouts too) tend to fall in the "waterproof" category - this doesn't mean it won't work (especially when aggregates other than sand are used), it just means that the cement itself won't tend to absorb water like traditional portland does (you know, like when it rains and the sidewalks turn dark and stay that way for a while - that is the cement absorbing the rain and holding it for a while). I think that absorption factor is part of the key to rock with high biological filtration capacity. I've not seen anything to substantiate this either way, but it is my opinion that the waterproof cements will work for biological filtration, but not nearly as well as the non-fortified portland does.

[mr.wilson]

All of the cement mixes I have used, including the ones intended to be used without aggregate as a water-proofing agent, have absorbed water in a capillary manner, as stated in my previous post.

Just to clarify for those that missed it, I'm currently using a Canadian product called Swift Patch by a company called Bomix. It's an aggregate-free, fast setting mix that offers everything I had with Quikwall or Water Stop except it's got a larger pore matrix, and is thus not waterproof.

The mix I currently use absorbs water faster than the others I have used in the past. Smaller pores may be able to facilitate the capillary action better than rock with larger ones, as gravity is greater with a wider column of water.

Bomix sells a calcite version of Southdown's playsand. The subject of aggregates was discussed in this thread if anyone is interested. There's lots of info on what and where to get. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1065896&perpage=25&pagenumber=9

The white glue concrete bonding agent works well for applying new concrete over old, but it's water soluble. After a few days it softens up and peels of the glass, when I've used it on walls. It floats around the tank for weeks and feels like teflon tape.

If you want the cheapest option for commercially produced rock, and your content with using media other than aragonite, you can buy limestone rocks from a quarry and coat them with your own concrete treatment to give it more shape. It's the loose stuff they get from blasting. It sells for $25.00 a ton ($0.01 /lb) and you can get fine, crusher run (mixed size), 3/4", river rock (smooth pebbles), and "rip-rap" (6"-24" rocks). They can give you a bioassay on the rocks to establish if they are metallic or have any other undesirables (nitrate, phosphate, soluble silicate, sulfur etc.). The stuff around here is high in magnesium and is classified as dolostone.

Here's a rock I had lying around. It's about 10" in diameter. I found a US dime to show the pore size.

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7535.jpg

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7538.jpg

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7539.jpg

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7541.jpg

Here are some more pictures of live rock cores. The pores are clearly smaller than that of the limestone and concrete products. Sorry, no macro lens.

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7527.jpg

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7529.jpg

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10545058#post10545058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson

Bomix sells a calcite version of Southdown's playsand.
Hmm. Again, Bomix is a canadian product, and not seen here in the US much, if at all...
And if I read that thread correctly, even Bomix doesn't have it listed on their site anymore?
And I don't see in the thread where anyone has actually gotten any recently, except the one guy who got what I am assuming is CC Chicken Grit at the feed store...

If you want the cheapest option for commercially produced rock, and your content with using media other than aragonite, you can buy limestone rocks from a quarry and coat them with your own concrete treatment to give it more shape.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/125181fossil.jpg

The piece to the right - the bright white piece is a sample of our local limestone. Our local limestone is dense and completely solid, as well as highly crystalline - I do not think this would make it good for filtration at all. Some limestone will be acceptable, but not something that most of us will have a good, porous source for...

[mr.wilson]

Raaden in the greenhouse thread found all kinds of suppliers of calcite. I believe he listed some in the thread, if not you could PM him. The stuff he's going to use is sold by the skid, which I think is 65 bags +-. I believe it was through an agricultural supplier.

I recommended the limestone rock for the people that were happy with silica products. I would only use it myself for very large tanks and in conjunction with live rock.

I'm going to be using some concrete blocks as a base for an upcoming project. It's a 6' x 6' cylinder that cannot be aquascaped by conventional methods.

[Insane Reefer]

I'll have to look again, but if it only available by the pallet, that doesn't really help the hobbyist.
I'm going to be using some concrete blocks as a base for an upcoming project. It's a 6' x 6' cylinder that cannot be aquascaped by conventional methods.


I don't know - a 6ft cylinder might look really cool with a single 5ft pillar going up the center...

[Izshocker]

Tried doing a second batch again tonight, actually it's just one rock.

Got the mix alot more crumbly then wet, afraid that 2 salt: 1 cement is to much salt. It looks like this thing will just fall apart. I also used salt as my mold material this time, I see what you guys mean about sand being stuck on the rock looking bad.

Here's a close up shot of the rock.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/Izshocker/First%20batch%20of%20DIY%20live%20rock/DSC02736.jpg

[mr.wilson]

Lookin' a lot better. It doesn't look like a cow left that one in the snow. :)

The good thing is we've all gone through these trials and at least it's cheap. See which formula works best for you. By the time you do your last rock you'll be a master at it.

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10541864#post10541864 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Wouldn't the glue result in a more waterproof mix?

No not necessarily you would not be adding enough to make it more waterproof it just makes the concrete adhere to itself much better especially after it has setup.
This glue may actually be very similar to regular white glue it smells and acts the same it is not waterproof.

Robert

[mr.wilson]

It looks like white glue, it smells like white glue, it feels like white glue, and the instructions advise that it can also be used as...you guessed it, white glue.

White glue sold as "white glue" is much cheaper than white glue sold as a cement bonding agent. If you want it to work on PVC plumbing, glass or acrylic, then use yellow carpenters glue instead, as it's more water resistant.

It quickly blends in with the cement mix and does not act as a barrier (water-proofing agent).

Wetting the old cement surface and tapering/feathering the new coating will also aid in getting a successful bond.

[Insane Reefer]

I get it :)
I was just thinking more along the lines of something like carpenter's glue - which dries hard and shiny and is usually moisture proof.
Not really sure what the point of using glue, in this situation, would be, if the glue "goes away"...

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10552111#post10552111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I get it :)
I was just thinking more along the lines of something like carpenter's glue - which dries hard and shiny and is usually moisture proof.
Not really sure what the point of using glue, in this situation, would be, if the glue "goes away"...

It allows the two surfaces to hold together better so that the chemical/physical reaction of the hardening concrete has a better chance of working correctly to fuse the two pieces together.

[Insane Reefer]

Hmmm. I must have missed something...

Let's pretend that this is the first time someone is posting about glue - and maybe give a how, when, where and why something like this might be used - because, I have to admit, I am stumped...

[mosthated00]

I have some rock i made back when this thread was still on its first split, and i have a simple question, If i put this homemade rock in my refugium which i just got up and running, it has about a 6" sand bed but like i said it is new, will the rock become live by itself? over time? Or do i have to put some real live rock in with it to get it going?

[Insane Reefer]

Welcome to the Thread, mosthated00!

If you throw a piece of shrimp or fish in, or a small amount of ammonia into the system, the rock will become "live" on it's own after a few weeks. However, the only thing that will be "live" about it is bacteria and algae - that sort of thing - you will not get any higher life where there is no life to begin with.
You won't get 'pods, or worms without putting some in.

Can we see some pictures?