The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[JohnL]

This thread was automatically split due to performance issues. You can find the rest of the thread here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10275876#post10275876

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10275856#post10275856 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Perlite isn't inert. It includes among others, calcium in its' composition.

http://www.dicalite-europe.com/chemrock-perlite.htm


I have to disagree....Perlite is essentially a very light air filled glass. Everywhere I have read has mentioned it is inert. Including the link you just provided:

"They are very light in density, fully inert and neutral."

[Neptune777]

Wooooo Hooooo! I triggered my first split!

[Azazael13]

booooo I was hoping to trigger it!

This makes section 4?

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10275878#post10275878 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I have to disagree....Perlite is essentially a very light air filled glass. Everywhere I have read has mentioned it is inert. Including the link you just provided:

"They are very light in density, fully inert and neutral."

I'm certainly not a chemist, but there are reactive salts in the chemical analysis in that link. Perhaps they are bound, and no longer bioavailable.

I'm not stating that there is anything detrimental that will leach, but it does contain calcium that would react with the acid. While perlite is inert in neutral water, acid or corrosive saltwater may be another story. Very few things are truly inert in saltwater.

[goldmaniac]

still tagging along

for white portland cement, i finally found mine at a builder's / contractors' supply house. Local place, not Lowe's or HD or BE or 88 lumber. Federal White Cement. 90 lbs $18.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10275955#post10275955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
I'm certainly not a chemist, but there are reactive salts in the chemical analysis in that link. Perhaps they are bound, and no longer bioavailable.

I'm not stating that there is anything detrimental that will leach, but it does contain calcium that would react with the acid. While perlite is inert in neutral water, acid or corrosive saltwater may be another story. Very few things are truly inert in saltwater.

Point taken ! I guess we just need to run some tests to see what happens....looks like IR will get there first!

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10276339#post10276339 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Point taken ! I guess we just need to run some tests to see what happens....looks like IR will get there first!

I only wish there were more Insane Reefers out there to go before me. :)

[Insane Reefer]

Split 4, Yea!!!

I agree with Neptune, Mr Wilson. I see perlite as almost being puffed glass. Our aquarium/window glass has a lot of the same chemical things listed in the perlite, but, as you said, they aren't biologically available elements.
I have some vinegar - going to go drop some perlite into some to see what we see...

I only wish there were more Insane Reefers out there to go before me.

Boldly going where others will eventually go...

[Insane Reefer]

Ok - perlite dropped into straight vinegar produced no observable reaction.
Perlite dropped into straight muriatic acid produced a slight vapor, but no other observable reaction...

And this is as good a place as any to report on a few other tests I had going.

1. Crushed coral, dropped in RO/DI for 5 days raises the pH by .5
2. Live rock, dropped into RO/DI for 5 days raises the pH by .5
3. Limestone (crushed/pulverized), dropped into RO/DI for 5 days raises the pH by .5

My RO/DI tests at 6 pH. All three items tested were straight from the bag. Nothing raised the pH over 5 days, above pH 7 - the litmus paper goes in whole steps, 1-14, but there are "in between" colors, sort of. These were definitely not 7, but were not at 6 anymore either...

[Travis L. Stevens]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10275902#post10275902 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
booooo I was hoping to trigger it!

This makes section 4?

I just looked at my subscribed threads to see you all have done it again. Yes, this makes split 4! That means there are over 3,000 posts in this thread alone. 3010 including mine if you want to be exact. I'm still catching up from page 27 on Split 3.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10277646#post10277646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Ok - perlite dropped into straight vinegar produced no observable reaction.
Perlite dropped into straight muriatic acid produced a slight vapor, but no other observable reaction...

And this is as good a place as any to report on a few other tests I had going.

1. Crushed coral, dropped in RO/DI for 5 days raises the pH by .5
2. Live rock, dropped into RO/DI for 5 days raises the pH by .5
3. Limestone (crushed/pulverized), dropped into RO/DI for 5 days raises the pH by .5

My RO/DI tests at 6 pH. All three items tested were straight from the bag. Nothing raised the pH over 5 days, above pH 7 - the litmus paper goes in whole steps, 1-14, but there are "in between" colors, sort of. These were definitely not 7, but were not at 6 anymore either...

Sounding better all the time for perlite! I wonder if we could run a TDS test as well on the stuff. I'm thinking of rinsing some perlite very well with zero TDS water to get all dust off, then let some soak in a container of zero TDS for "X" time and then check the TDS again. If it is leaching AL203 or anything else the TDS meter should pick it up.... If it remains zero then I am confident it is safe....but if it has a reading I can't say for certain that it is bad....

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10277522#post10277522 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Split 4, Yea!!!

I agree with Neptune, Mr Wilson. I see perlite as almost being puffed glass. Our aquarium/window glass has a lot of the same chemical things listed in the perlite, but, as you said, they aren't biologically available elements.
I have some vinegar - going to go drop some perlite into some to see what we see...



Boldly going where others will eventually go... When I was in horticulture class (we won't mention how many years ago THAT was)... we were told that vermiculite was made from mica & that perlite was volcanic in origin... I have always assumed it still was volcanic in origin... unless they have changed it over the years... not sure if that would make a difference in what you are thinking or not.. just a tidbit of info... btw... it is also used in waterlily potting mixes... (so it's supposed to be safe for koi and other freshwater fish)...

[shookbrad]

I have a good TDS Meter. I could do this test this weekend. I will have to pick up come perlite and distilled water but that is easy. I will start the test tomorrow or Saturday and post the results on Sunday.

[Mackelshak]

Is there any recipe with all the modifications of the rocks?

[Insane Reefer]

v5.0

Hey All,
I'm going to post my favorite tips and links every so often so new people can find it all pretty easy. It is a summation of the most commonly asked questions and things I have picked up through making my batches. Some I’ve gleaned from this thread, others I’ve learned from past mistakes and experiments. I've been making DIY man-made rock or aragocrete off and on for close to 8 years. Lately, I have even made some money on my rocks.


This does not contain any information on "Jiffy Rock", the new method I am working on to produce rock in under a week or 10 days. This only pertains to traditionally cured rock methods.

I thought I’d pass this info on – maybe save someone some frustration or spark a new idea.

I will continue to refine and update this post as more info is added, and repost every so often.
:)


First, good info can be found at these two places - I think everyone who wants to make rock should read these in full. One of the articles gets pretty heavy handed with the science/chemistry aspect, the other babbles on tangents once in a while, but both are worth the read, IMO.
ARAGOCRETE RESEARCH BY TRACY GRAY (http://www.garf.org/news17p1.html)
Reef Propagation Project: (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6279/RaiseCementRock.html)

And this link is for Cement Colorant (http://stores.ebay.com/Olde-World-Concrete-Molds_Concrete-Colorant_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ14QQftidZ2QQtZkm). They sell it in small amounts in rainbow colors and are very cheap.

List of Appropriate Aggregates
Sand - caribbean/aragonite is best, but very hard to find at a reasonable price. Any “clean” sand will work. “Toys R Us” carries a play sand that a lot of folks use and report no trouble with. Limestone sand/Pulverized Limestone has gotten good results as a DSB, so should also work and can be found at some Big Box Stores like Home Despot. Sand Blasting sand can also be used and is sugar fine.
Crushed Coral - AKA "CC". Makes nice, realistic rock, but expensive.
Crushed Oyster Shell - AKA "OS". Any shell will work, but OS is very cheap at feed stores.
Calcium Carbonate - This stuff comes in a range of textures and grain size – from sand to gravel like CC. Most feed stores will carry it, and for less then $4/ #50.
Dolomite :D – Same as Calcium Carbonate, just another name (and slight chemical variation) and is just fine to use.
Salt - Many thanks to Travis Stevens for figuring this out! The salt of choice is "Solar Salt Crystals", typically found as a Water Softener Salt. 99% pure salt. Get the coarsest crystals you can find. Solar Cube can be used, but is sort of chunky - makes nice holes though. Boiling the "cubes" rounds off the edges and makes nicer holes. Solar Pellets can also be used, same as Cubes. Look at your grocery stores or wally-worlds if your local hardware doesn't have what you want.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/125181salt-types.jpg

Rock Recipes
Ingredients are measured by volume, not weight!

Travis’ Original Recipe: 4:1 or 3:1 / Salt:Cement
Improved? Recipe: 3:1 or 2:1 / Salt:Cement
Ol' Skool+ Recipe: 1: 1 to 1.5 : 1.5 :1 / Salt:Cement:CC&OS(mixed):Sand

Mix dry ingredients together first, excepting salt - add tiny amounts of water while vigorously mixing the slurry. Slurry should be “dry” and crumbly, not wet and squishy – there is a fine line between the two. A wet mix will not have as many natural voids in it, be less porous, and will also bind to the salt, making salt release more difficult. Once you have reached a slightly wetter mix then you think you need, lightly toss the salt into the mixture, and then mix it very quickly – the more salt that leeches off the crystals, the more deleterious the results can be. Be aware that a dry mix may give the illusion for the first week of being more brittle, but after a week or so, it toughens up and is nice and hard. After you make your rocks, they need to be kept moist and warm for a week or two to achieve the best hydration possible – though many do take their rock out and start salt release or kuing in 3 days or so, and haven’t reported any bad side effects. Plastic bags, wet newpaper, wet casting materials and the like will help seal in moisture. If you think the rock might dry too quickly, mist it with a bottle or hose every so often.

Molding Material
Really, pretty much anything that is dry and crumbly/powdery will work. I've even used stuffing bread crumbles, but that draws bugs while it dries.

Soil
Salt
Sand
Clay

A certain portion of the molding material will remain on the rocks - this can usually be removed with a short acid bath, followed by a good scrubbing with a plastic or fine wire, bristle brush.

If you use Rubbermaid or Tupperware, you can reuse molding material over and over again. Line cardboard boxes with plastic to prevent moisture leak and wall collapse.

DO NOT Wet Salt, if it is used as a mold material - this means when working with salt, do not add water to the casting box as you would or might with say clay or sand.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I will list my tips and tricks, in no particular order. Many will seem stupid or like common sense, but you don’t know about some people’s kids, lol…

Tips and tricks

1. Wear gloves when making rock. If possible, don’t let the cement get on your skin, especially the dry powder. If possible, wear a painter’s mask when measuring and mixing dry cement; this stuff can really burn the inside of your nose.
2. Setup your work area in advance; cover surfaces with plastic or old sheets if needed (like in your kitchen or living room). Fill casting containers with whatever mold material you are using, or have it standing by within easy reach. Give yourself walkways if you are making a lot of rock – nothing sucks as much as trying to create enough work space after the fact. :(
3. Think about the weather for not only the day you cast, but the next few days as well, if you plan on doing this outside. Rain can make a mess of things…
4. Use Portland Type I, II (I/II) or III – these are known to be safe for use and make rock with proper porosity.
5. Mix all aggregates excepting salt into the cement before adding water. Add salt after you have reached the right wet consistency, and mix it in lightly – the less salt is leeched off the grains of salt, the stronger your final rocks will be. Water softener salt of the type “Solar Salt Crystals” works wonderfully (Thank you Travis Stevens!).
6. I prefer to use crushed coral and sand in my rocks for long term strength, plus salt to add porosity. The aggregates also give realistic details to the rock. My preferred recipe is 1.5 part cement + 1.5 part sand + 1 part crushed coral/shell mix + 1 part salt, but this is expensive to make. You can also use a mix of 1-1.5 cement + 1-2 crushed oyster shells + 1-2 salt.
Mainly, a 1 part cement to 3-4 parts “other” is acceptable, whatever you want to mix together is up to you and you should be ok if you follow the 1:3-4 part rule.
7. Work in layers for added dimension. If you lay a layer of molding stuff in your container, make a few divots in this molding layer first, and add cement to these first to make lumps on the bottom, you can avoid flat bottomed rocks. Now lay the main part of your rock, adding molding material as needed.
8. You can make neat “cliff-face” striations if you take a handful of salt, and lay it just along the top edge of wet cement, forming a narrow line of salt along the edge, laying a thin layer of cement over the salt, and repeating this to form, on the outer edge of your rock, a sort of cliff that looks to be cut by water action.
9. Anything cast thinner than an inch is likely to break, unless you are very careful with it.
10. Find a nice bit of stainless steel or aluminum wire – 2mm or so in width, and bend a handle for one end (remember you will probably be wearing gloves, so bend accordingly). As you cast your rock, use this wire to poke Lots of little tunnels all through the rock – all the way through if you can; this will make the rocks extra porous, and give bug life lots of places to hide and propagate in-tank, as well as allowing more water to move through the rock. Alternatively, you can cast the piece, and then poke as much of it as you can – though this way tends to look a bit contrived. I like the first way better.
11. Once your rock has cured and it has been curing for about a week and if you made it mixed with stuff like crushed coral or shells, mix up a weak acid mix and scrub the outside of your rocks with a stiff bristle brush. Be sure to take proper precautions when working with acid – not only from burns, but from fumes as well!!! If you only made your rock with salt and cement, ignore the acid wash, as your rocks might dissolve, but still give them a vigorous scrubbing - this will loosen the weakest stuff and get rid of it without shedding it all over your tank. If you have shells or coral, this can make the surface even more porous, and clean cement films from shells and the like that might be on the surface. I use a mixture of 1/2c muriatic acid added to 2c water.
12. You can make “lock together” pieces by wrapping a bit of PVC in something like tissue paper or plastic wrap, sticking it in the wet cement of “part a”, and then laying plastic wrap over and around the fresh cement/PVC, and then cast “part b”, making sure to get a good fit around the PVC join. I find this works, but I personally have an easier time if I cast “part a” with PVC set into it, let it cure, then wrap it well with whatever, and cast “part b”, and I can cast really large pieces this way.
13. “Cement Paint”. You can make up a slurry of cement and sand, say 1 part cement to 2 or 3 parts sand, made fairly thin and fairly wet and sloppy, and use it to decorate rock with “coralline algae”. I use white Portland, but I don’t see why white grout or mortar wouldn’t work as well. You can use cement colorants to color the cement any shade you desire. Working with a paintbrush, you can easily replicate the swirling patterns of coralline. I’ve also used this mix to paint/dry brush grey Portland rocks to white.
14. Branching rock/Coral skeletons. Pick PVC pipe a bit thinner than what you want your final piece to be. Cut into appropriate lengths, cutting one end flat and the other at an angle. Drill plenty of holes in the PVC to help the cement stick on. Drill extra holes on the very end that will allow you to tie the pieces onto the “main branch” with zip ties. You can bend PVC into believable shapes using heat from either a propane torch or a heat gun, and a couple of pairs of pliers (use appropriate precautions). After you have your PVC framework, mix a thicker blend of Cement Paint (less water, more cement) and paint/dip the skeleton, covering completely. I recommend hanging to dry, and dipping several times, using a paintbrush to smooth it out and prevent weird drips. When done coating, tie a grocery bag around the hanging piece to preserve moisture and allow to cure 48 hours or more.
15. Think about how corals come to you, as frags and whole colonies, and think about how hard it can be to attach these in your typical rock pile. Flatter surfaces and shallow bowls in larger rock shapes can make latter placement easier.
16. You can make rock “shells” if you want to avoid the rock pile look altogether and these are only limited to your imagination and size constraints. You can stuff the cavity in the back of this hollow construction with cheap $1.99/lbs rock, or whatever you want. I DO NOT recommend making these with the cement and salt only recipe! Make a form of some sort (use your imagination), put it in a box that will fit into your tank (making a rock too big for the target tank blows), and secure it to one side, or more (for multi-part casts) with duct tape. Line the rest of the box with plastic. I made my form from plastic grocery bags stuffed into a garbage bag, with a little air added, and taped that into the target box. Slowly build the shell wall (adding details as you wish), filling the box with salt/molding material, until you have the form covered with a fairly uniform covering of cement. LEAVE ALONE FOR A WEEK! Cover with plastic if you can. See my gallery for pictures of the “”Reef Face” or “Nessy”.
17. Frag Plugs. If you have extra cement at the end of the day, make frag plugs by using a mini muffin pan, and filling with ½in. of cement. Spray the pan with cooking spray for easier release. These can be put in a mesh bag and cured in the toilet tank.
18. Hate scraping the back wall of your tank? You can make thin, wall covering sheets, that can be glued with silicone to the back wall of your tank. Alternatively you could make shelves along those lines. I find casting on a sheet of glass covered in plastic works best for this. Also marking out the actual measurements of the back wall onto the glass helps to avoid sizing issues. I DO NOT recommend using the salt and cement only recipes for this application, nor the use of any salt at all! I also mix this just a little wetter than I normally use. Once you are setup, just drool the cement onto the covered glass. I tried doing large sheets, but these mostly were too weak to hold up and heavy. I find making smaller pieces (12inX12in or so) that abut like a puzzle work best, and sort of give the illusion of looking at a cracked and crevassed reef wall. After you cast these, they need to be kept moist and unmoved for 3 days, 7 days being much better. Believe me. They do. And you will need to mist them once a day. I just covered mine with a garbage bag and used a water bottle to mist it. I recommend an acid wash, as described above, once these have kured for a week.
19. If you make a rock or rocks you don't like, either use fresh cement mix to add some new bits, or break the rock up and use it as aggregate in your next batch - no waste is good.
20. The moister you can keep the cement while it cures, the harder the final rock will be - try wrapping it in a bag, or misting it while it cures. Supposedly, if you can let it sit for two to four weeks before starting to water kure, it will dramatically speed the kure time.
21. Dust your molding sand with oat flour for easy removal of surface sand. Thanks Rhody!
22. Mix molasses with your molding sand to give it more texture. Thanks Rhody!

Various things I have used and have worked for me for adding details:
1. Cemented Nylon String. Makes realistic tube worm/duster tubes. Make a thin paste of just cement, and dip small lengths of the sting in. Wipe excess off between fingers and lay onto the rock in desired figure.
2. Veggie Capsules. These can make little tunnels when laid end to end in the wet cement, and then covered with more cement. Or poke into outside edges to mimic polyp holes. Do NOT mix into the cement mix.
3. Nori Sheets. These can be wetted and formed into shapes or rolled into tunnels.
4. Balloons. Both the round and “animal” ones work. I find that filling them with water makes them stronger. Doubling them up works well too. Make sure that you can get the balloon out afterward - i.e. leave the knot sticking out.
5. Cardboard Rolls. Can be cut to form bracing, tunnels or for pillar shapes. Be sure to use it in such a way as will allow you to remove it after a few days of kuring. Hemostats work great for grabbing a-hold and pulling it out.
6. Tissue Paper. The white stuff you find in gift bags. Disintegrates quickly during kure. You can make little (or big) “salt bags”, that you can lay into the middle of larger rocks to give more holes for ‘pods and the like. Can be used to make caves and tunnels. Just use a small bit of paper, lay some salt in it and twist or tuck the ends – a small bit of cotton thread could be used to secure the package too.
7. Pasta. Must be cooked “Al Dente” before use. Do not mix into cement, it only makes a mess and is a pain to get out of the rock as it gets really hard and crunchy when the rock dries (ever scraped 3 day old pasta off a plate?).
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c133/lubricus/rock56756.jpg
Kured Rock that the pasta is stuck in...
Use to add spaces in the rock, or tunnels with spaghetti (at your own risk). Rigatoni adds a nice effect if placed just right. If you use pasta, you MUST keep the rock moist at all times – if the pasta dries, it will most likely never come out, ever.
8. Jelly. No, not like PB&J, but those toys, etc made of the product known as silicone jelly – often comes in wiggly balls. Also fishing bait worms made of the jelly/rubber. No need to lube them – they will release just fine.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/125181tunnel-stuff2.jpg

Things that DO NOT work:
1. Vinegar/acid kuring. Does have its uses, but don’t expect it to kure your rock – it won’t.
2. Bio-degradable packing peanuts/Cheesy-poofs. I can find no way to really use these that is also safe for the tank.
3. Fish food pellets. That was really, really nasty. I don’t want to go there.
4. Uncooked Pasta. As pasta absorbs water, it expands, causing the cement to fracture and crack – cook it al dente if you really want to use it.
5. Alka-Seltzer . Doesn’t work. It dissolves too quickly.
6. Yeast. Doesn't work. pH kills the cells before they can respirate. Though during the Kure, this might be a speed option.
7. Co2. Ok – it does work, but only under high pressure. Adding into H2O will only make soda pop (carbonic acid), and eat away at your rock, causing fresh, high pH surfaces to be revealed.

Salt Release
If you used salt in your rock, it must be removed before kuring can happen. Salt will release in hot water much easier than it will in cold water, and boiling water works best of all. It generally takes two days to two weeks to remove salt, based on factors such as wetness of the slurry, aggregates used and density of the cast piece. Removing the salt will take several water changes. Boiling is also a viable option, and may also help reduce pH - hydrogen carbonate ions can decompose forming insoluble calcium (or magnesium) carbonate, which then are flushed away.

If you aren’t sure that the salt is gone, you can do a “Taste Test”. After draining and rinsing the rock (pick your largest/thickest piece), allow the water to drain out for a few minutes. Pick the rock up and use your finger to catch a drip of water from the bottom of the rock and taste it. If there is still salt present, the water drop will be salty. If the salt is gone, the drop will taste of mineral water and very slightly sweet.

Rock Kuring
Kuring your rock is the next hurdle. It is really, really best to leave your rock alone for at least a week before starting this step. According to Quikcrete reps, it takes 7-14 days for the rock to stop curing/hardening (though this process is actually going on for a lot, lot longer) - even though it looks and feels done. Testing standards say it takes 28 days to reach full strength and before testing for commercial applications can commence. By putting your rock in the kure bin too soon, you are wasting a lot of water, prolonging the hydration process and making weaker rock. Rocks during this 2-4 week period will naturally loose pH - from 12-13 at casting time down to 9-10, with NO WATER USED. I theorize that rock left longer, like 8 weeks, will only need a week or so of kure time (and a lot less water and effort!).

Kuring is pretty straight forward. Lots of time, and lots of water changes with adequate water volume, unless you have access to a reasonably clean waterway. Powerheads help force water through the rock and help the insides kure out. Adding heat to the bucket, upwards of 90°F will speed things along.

When your bucket kured rock quits leeching out white scum on the surface of the water, and stops leaving a white residue on the bottom of the bucket and on the rocks themselves, you can start checking for pH. Rock has been known to kure in as little as 2 weeks, but most bucket/bin kured rock takes 6-8 weeks to reach safe levels – some will take up to 3 months. Be prepared to wait.

To properly test for pH, change the water – either use RO/DI or aged saltwater – saltwater is preferred since this is what the rock will be sitting in for the rest of its life. Let the rock sit in this for 3-4 days without air or powerheads – you want still, stagnant water for this. After the 3-4 days, give the water a bit of a stirring and check pH with appropriate test kit. If it is in the acceptable range of 8.0 to 8.6, it is probably safe to use. If not, continue to kure.

You can use any acceptable pH testing method. The test you use should have a testing range of 5-10 at a minimum. I like using Litmus Paper. It can read pH from 1-14, and is fairly easy to read. Litmus paper can be gotten at “Hobby Lobby” for $3.89 per 100 strips. These can also be used to test your reefs’ pH ;) Litmus can also be found at pharmacies, online, and at other full service hobby stores, usually in the section that has things like “Magic Crystals”, and horseshoe/bar magnets – the “Science Section”.

Once kuring has finished - reads between 7 and 8.6 on pH, your rock can be used :)
If added to a newly established tank, you can go ahead and put it all in at once. If the tank is older, with inhabitants, you may wish to add a rock or two at a time, to allow the system to “settle” between each addition. Maintain pH testing for the first two weeks and buffer if needed.

Expect an algae bloom. :eek1:
A few people, those who either have waterways to kure in, or those with really butch systems have reported no algae blooms, but I suspect they are the exception, not the rule. If your tank blooms, don’t panic. Most tanks bloom within the maturation period anyway. Double check your system for things like NO2 and NO3, and other algae causing symptoms and correct anything that isn’t up to snuff. Take all the normal steps to curtail the growth, but then just ride it out. If the bloom is caused by the rocks, the algae will soon deplete the readily available nutrients and starve itself out. If it doesn’t go away within a few months, then you should check into other reasons for the bloom.
New Tip! If you place your rock in tank with low light for two weeks to a month, you can avoid most of the bright green covering algae – low lights allow the rock to settle in without being attacked by algae so badly…

Well, I think that about covers my repertoire. I apologize for the length of this post, but hopefully some of you will find something of use…

I encourage the rest of you to take some time to write up your experiences and tips and share them with us – by sharing our experiences, we all learn and get better and better at making our own rock.

Good Luck, and Rock On!
:rollface:

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10275955#post10275955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
While perlite is inert in neutral water, acid or corrosive saltwater may be another story.

I left the perlite in muriatic for 24 hours - no reaction. I'd say this stuff is pretty inert...

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10283950#post10283950 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I left the perlite in muriatic for 24 hours - no reaction. I'd say this stuff is pretty inert...


If the perlite pans out I think we have a really good substitute/alternative for the rock salt (one less step to get the rock ready for use). I also think the perlite will be more efficient for denitrification compared to the rock salt created pores. :)

[Aqua Keepers]

Has any one used this stuff to bond there DIY rocks?
http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/ConcreteBondingAdhesivePro.asp

[seanb1]

i have made opproximately 160 pounds of the agrocrete type rocks and they look pretty good i think.

i used the crushed oyster shell, portland and arrgonite.
i have seen the pics of making it with salt and i must say it looks pretty good.
im gonna try it next time with salt.

ill post a few pics of the rock this weekend when i take it out of the kiddie pool in the back yard for a water change.

i have noticed that on the surface of the water it looks like the same stuff that you get when you mix up some kalkwasser and let it sit. is that what that stuff is?.

anyways ill post some pics later.

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10286603#post10286603 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
Has any one used this stuff to bond there DIY rocks?
http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/ConcreteBondingAdhesivePro.asp

I've used it many times. It's basically white glue. It looks like white glue, it smells like white glue, and the instructions state that it can be used as...you guessed it, white glue.

The problem with white glue, is it's water soluble. I used it a few times to prime glass for cement bonding, but it dissolves as soon as you fill the tank. It does however, help bond rock together when mixed into cement. Yellow carpenters glue would work better, as it's water resistant.

Add some water and borax to the white glue and you have your own homemade slime (polymer).

[Insane Reefer]

Mr Wilson, I have a quick question for you - actually, two. You talk about acid etching to stabilize pH. How does that work? Also, I've been doing "acid baths" - the same thing in theory. What is a good length of time for acid etching or bathing? I've been doing anything from 3 day to 5 days, but am wondering if that is longer then is needed, or not long enough? Basically, looking for the shortest effective time-frame...

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10284597#post10284597 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
If the perlite pans out I think we have a really good substitute/alternative for the rock salt (one less step to get the rock ready for use).

I was thinking it would replace crushed coral, and because of the way cement forms up around it, salt just wouldn't be neccessary anymore, except for maybe adding surface texture or large voids/caves with salt packs/piles/chunks...

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10290463#post10290463 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Mr Wilson, I have a quick question for you - actually, two. You talk about acid etching to stabilize pH. How does that work? Also, I've been doing "acid baths" - the same thing in theory. What is a good length of time for acid etching or bathing? I've been doing anything from 3 day to 5 days, but am wondering if that is longer then is needed, or not long enough? Basically, looking for the shortest effective time-frame...

I'm not entirely sure how the chemical reaction works. Cement is alkali with a high PH, while acid is, as the name would suggest, acidic with a low PH. Somehow the process of adding Acid to the surface of concrete renders a slightly lower PH to the concrete even after rinsing.

One function of etching is to remove loose material, but physical removal is still required. The second function is to lower the PH, particularly in the application of coatings. I believe acid opens the pores of concrete as Co2 escapes, but this isn't my field of expertise.

Hydrochloric acid combines with carbonates (sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate) to form sodium chloride (table salt), Co2, and water. The hydraulic process cement goes through is driven by these same chemical agents.

I'll ask a civil engineer friend of mine to elaborate. It'll give him a chance to use the knowledge that he has likely forgotten. With all of the views this thread has had, I'm surprised we haven't drawn out a concrete expert lurking among us.

I painted a concrete floor years ago, and the paint bubbled up. The chemist at the paint company surmised that I didn't rinse the acid well enough and Co2 slowly bubbled through the paint.

Another chemist claimed that my warehouse ceiling was oxidized from frequent use of hydrochloric (muriatic) acid. Apparently it readily binds to metals in it's vapour form.

The construction industry adds acid to fresh concrete in open air. I just watched a guy the other day with a weed sprayer full of acid, spraying a new sidewalk. The sidewalk went from grey to white as he sprayed. I'm not sure if they do this to remove loose material, or if somehow the process hardens the surface or helps with drainage.

An acid bath may not be as effective as spraying it "dry", as it may not allow for the same reactions experienced in atmospheric air.

I didn't answer your question, but I think I adequately proved that I don't know the answer. :)

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10290701#post10290701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
I didn't answer your question, but I think I adequately proved that I don't know the answer. :)

ROTFLMAO!!!
No Worries - you basically replied with what I was thinking, but thought I'd ask someone who might know more.

What I am doing with the weak vinegar solution has given me good results, but I wonder if they could be better? Ask your buddy what he knows, if you would. It might give us something new to hash over.

[mr.wilson]

Muriatic acid will work better than vinegar.

[Insane Reefer]

Muriatic has a lot of impurities in it. Vinegar is reef safe.
:)

[Aqua Keepers]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10286603#post10286603 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
Has any one used this stuff to bond there DIY rocks?
http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/ConcreteBondingAdhesivePro.asp

^

[Azazael13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10287337#post10287337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
I've used it many times. It's basically white glue. It looks like white glue, it smells like white glue, and the instructions state that it can be used as...you guessed it, white glue.

The problem with white glue, is it's water soluble. I used it a few times to prime glass for cement bonding, but it dissolves as soon as you fill the tank. It does however, help bond rock together when mixed into cement. Yellow carpenters glue would work better, as it's water resistant.

Add some water and borax to the white glue and you have your own homemade slime (polymer).
^^

:)

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10292023#post10292023 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Muriatic has a lot of impurities in it. Vinegar is reef safe.
:)

Hydrochloric acid is used for it's chemical composition as well as its' acidic nature. You won't get salt, water or Co2 from vinegar.

If you aren't satisfied with muriatic, then use hydrochloric grade. It's still dirt cheap without the impurities.

[Insane Reefer]

I had thought possibly to use HCL at one point, but am hesitant to throw it down the drain when it is used. I've used muriatic and probably will do so again, but simply to clean the faces of certain pieces I have done. For commercial rock I want to be able to say that I didn't cut corners or used inferior materials, that to the best of my ability, I used materials known to be safe in the aquarium.
I'll have to check at the local masonry supply - I've never noticed HCL at the big box stores, and online ordering carries a $25US "hazardous materials" charge :sad2:
Finding it might be the limiting factor...

[wooden_reefer]

Hello:

I am making live rock

I have bags of crushed coral and also a bag of crushed Oyster shell.

Would you take me apart of appearance what the differences are. What is the higher phosphate content of crushed oyster shell. What could be the source of the phosphrous in crushed oyster shell?

I went to Home Depot and Lowes, they sell Portand cement type II-V, not type I-II, can I use type II-V? What is the difference?

Thanks so much

[davepadilla]

Mr.Wilson: The reason they spray concrete like driveways and such is to aid in the curing process.

[Azazael13]

ok batch #2 is done, I am going to do a partial water change soon and use the old water in a 10 gallon I have setup in my garage to put the batch in, this will hopefully help the algae right? Do I need a filter running or just an air stone on the rocks?

[spike78]

Insane Reefer,

Are you still baking your rocks? I've let my rocks sit now for 48 hours and am trying 2 different baking techniques.

In technique one, I took the rocks right from the mold box to the BBQ set on high for 3 hours. After that I let it soak for 2 hours.

In technique two, I took the rock from the molding box and went into a soak for 2 hours to pull out as much salt as I could. From there I went into the BBQ for 3 hours.

Right now it seems like technique 2 is working best as technique 1 rocks seem a little brittle. If you are still baking your rocks, what process are you using?

I'm using the following recipie: 1.5 parts cement:1 part oyster shell:3 parts salt.

Thanks,

Steve

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10293814#post10293814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
ok batch #2 is done, I am going to do a partial water change soon and use the old water in a 10 gallon I have setup in my garage to put the batch in, this will hopefully help the algae right? Do I need a filter running or just an air stone on the rocks?

Which rock is this Az? Jiffy Rock or Traditional?
Just fishing for an update on the Jiffy Rock you made :D

Either way, what you plan sounds fine - just keep the lighting low for a while and it seems to help. Air is enough.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10294260#post10294260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spike78
[B]Insane Reefer,

Are you still baking your rocks?
Yes, I am - it seems to work, and I usually get rock that is pH 9 or less in 1 week to 10 days.

Right now it seems like technique 2 is working best as technique 1 rocks seem a little brittle. If you are still baking your rocks, what process are you using?
Technique two seems to be working for you better because it did - you are saturating the rock with moisture before baking it - moisture is vital to the hydration process. The other rock dried out too quickly as the heat just sucked it out. Try adding a tin can or 2 of really hot water next time, and leave the salt in the rock until after the bake. Also close all the vents on your BBQ.

I get the best results the sooner I bake - between 18 and 24 hours after casting, usually. I keep my temp at around 450°F, and keep a pan of water in with it to provide moisture, I also bake them for 4-6 hours, depending on the size of the rocks. The vinegar bath should follow the salt release. For the bath, try 3 days in 2 cups of vinegar to each gallon of water - you just need to cover the rocks with the solution. Rinse really well after they have sat, and refill the bin and allow to sit over-night, then drain. I then finish out the kure, a week or so with a couple of water changes.
I am going to try one rock, right after the acid bath, to see what it does to a test tank, just for curiosities sake.

[spike78]

IR,

I just checked my technique 2 rocks again now. It's like 3 hours after bake. Those rocks are strong as heck. The ones I baked first are nowhere close.

I baked the rocks in an old gas BBQ I had running it full blast. I recon I'm running about 450 maybe 500. I put a steel bowl of water in there for moisture.

Do you think it's worth keeping my technique 1 rocks? I don't want to put too much work into them if they are just going to end up failing. Do you think the backing permanently damaged the cure? These rocks are cheap so maybe it's worth just tossing them.


Thanks,

Steve

[Neptune777]

I made a ton of rock yesterday using the old school recipe. I'm not going to bake them but rather let them air cure for a month or so before soaking. Do you mist or spray the rocks periodically during this air cure to aid in the curing process or do you just let them dry out?

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10294865#post10294865 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spike78

Do you think it's worth keeping my technique 1 rocks?

Almost everyone ends up with a few rocks that don't turn out. I really can't tell without seeing them, but if you feel they are too brittle, I wouldn't use them. If waste bothers you, break these up and reuse the rubble in the next few batches of rock you make.

[Insane Reefer]

Neptune, mist them every few days - moister is better. I find that putting the rock in black garbage bags, outside in the heat (but not in the sun) works really well.

[Insane Reefer]

It will be interesting to hear back from Sunkool, who was also going to try a batch of Jiffy Rock out in his BBQ/Smoker.

I have wondered how real flame would effect the bakes; flame is a harsher heat then an electric element, and it may be possible that providing enough moisture during the bake could prove to be difficult.
It is one reason I have been hesitant to built an outdoor baker - I would prefer electric, but am having trouble figuring out how to wire the electric in such a way that the wires won't melt from the heat generated in the barrel. Propane would be ever so much easier, and can get the parts to build it at Walmart for about $30, but don't want to waste money and effort if the end result isn't what I am hoping for.

Just curious Steve, How much propane did you use for your bakes?

[Azazael13]

IR the project rocks (group 3 for me) are entering the PH testing stage. Tomorrow is the first PH test.

[Insane Reefer]

Awesome, AZ :)
Have you made rock before? If so, how did this compare for you? Are you pleased so far with the rocks? If your end pH is in the 9 range, would you say this method was worth it, as far as effort put forth and in time/water saved? Granted, the testing phase will make this take longer then it will once I'm certain most people will get the same results, and we feel that the long term testing isn't really necessary anymore, but I've been able to finish the kure in a week or so with a few water changes in the rock I've been doing lately, where I skip the testing phase - I've only had a few rocks that took as long as 2 weeks to do, from cast to finish.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10295622#post10295622 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Neptune, mist them every few days - moister is better. I find that putting the rock in black garbage bags, outside in the heat (but not in the sun) works really well.


Thanks....this is my first try at official reef rock. It is very brittle now but I assume it will harden up considerably as it cures in the next couple weeks?

Also, on the subject of Perlite..... I did a TDS test on the stuff today. My tap water has 147ppm as is.....after my RO/DI unit I am at zero. I filled three plastic cups (one with tap, 2 with RODI and tested TDS on all three to make sure I get the same #'s. One RODI cup was used to rinse off particles from the perlite so I could test the chunks after they soak in the other RODI cup for 1/2 hour. I am surprised at the initial results.........Both the RODI rinse/prewash and the "official" soak cup still register ZERO TDS after 1/2 hour with the perlite. I will leave them overnight and test again tomorrow.

[unbreakable]

whoaa, this thread has changed a lot. so when after i make the rock, let it sit for a week or so, then it put it water.. does it have to be in tap water or r/o water? when i test it it has to be in r/o water?

[spike78]

Steve, How much propane did you use for your bakes? [/B]

I basically had the BBQ running full blast for 6 hours. I recon I ran through half a tank of propane. My burners are busted on that BBQ so it's basically cooking on an open flame. I had a little blackening in spots on the underside of the rock (it came right off) but I'm REALLY HAPPY with the way my technique 2 rocks turned out. My technique 1 rocks are going in the garbage.

It basically took me 3 batches to get to the point where I'm happy with my process. I'll try and take some pictures of the rock I made yesterday and post them. I'm probably going to run another batch today. Just need more salt :).

If these rocks cure OK, I think I'd REALLY recommend baking the rocks if you have the means. It gives you pretty quick feedback if the mix you used is going to work and seems to make the rocks extremely strong.

[mr.wilson]

A propane BBQ will give you the Co2 and water you need for a quick cure.

[customcolor]

y dont you just put a batch in a fire pit or a fire place instead of burning up your propane.

[spike78]

By using the BBQ I can close off the cooking area as much as possible and keep the cooking area humid. As well, the area I live in has a burn ban in effect which makes a fire pit a no/go. :)

[cougarguy]

Insane Reefer

I saw you were looking for some Hydrochloric acid, check out the flooring section in HD or Lowes it is labled as grout haze remover.

Some of them are Phosphoric acid but other are the Hydrochloric acid you are looking for.

[Insane Reefer]

Thanks Cougarguy :D

[Azazael13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10295746#post10295746 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Awesome, AZ :)
Have you made rock before? If so, how did this compare for you? Are you pleased so far with the rocks? If your end pH is in the 9 range, would you say this method was worth it, as far as effort put forth and in time/water saved? Granted, the testing phase will make this take longer then it will once I'm certain most people will get the same results, and we feel that the long term testing isn't really necessary anymore, but I've been able to finish the kure in a week or so with a few water changes in the rock I've been doing lately, where I skip the testing phase - I've only had a few rocks that took as long as 2 weeks to do, from cast to finish.

Here is my rock history.
Phase 1: Too much water in my mix and stupid casting method. Trashed

Phase 2: In tank now not overly happy with them, but I need rocks in there and they aren't horrible.

Phase 3: Refining the process and am somewhat happy with these.

Phase 4: Your Jiffy style.

The faster cure is nice, but it won't matter to much to me since I am going to try to put them in my 10g this time around to help the algae outbreak, they will most likely sit in there for 2 months. I would love the baking method more in the winter, aside from the hot already humid summer ;)

[Neptune777]

After soaking the perlite in zero TDS water overnight I still get a reading of zero TDS.

[Insane Reefer]

Cool AZ :)
Yeah, I discovered the low light thing through observation and by accident. I noticed that the rock I took to the local LFS don't seem to bloom, not like this backwall and other pieces I've seen. Didn't think too much about it until I threw a couple of pieces in my bug tank, which is a 10g with 15W? T5 of 50/50. These have never bloomed - they are still white (coralline just starting), though it has gotten a bit grungy colored. So last time I was in the LFS I asked what light was being used on the rock tank and it is a dual strip NO setup - very low light like my setup. The low light seems to curtail the algae growth.
Honestly though, if your system doesn't have a lot of stuff in it yet, I don't know that I wouldn't just go ahead and put it in there, and just run less light for a few weeks. Just a thought.

How about some pictures? :bum:

[Azazael13]

I will get pictures later today of batches 3 and 4(jiffypop)

My garage should be low light enough :)

[shookbrad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10303242#post10303242 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
After soaking the perlite in zero TDS water overnight I still get a reading of zero TDS.
I received the same results!

[Insane Reefer]

I left the perlite in muriatic for 24 hours - no reaction. I'd say this stuff is pretty inert...

After soaking the perlite in zero TDS water overnight I still get a reading of zero TDS.

The perlite does indeed seem to be truly inert.

One final test could be run for any doubters that might remain. Run the same series, but in saltwater, and leave it for a week. One thing I'd do would be to drop the pH in the saltwater into a range that buffering would naturally start to occur - say 7.5-8
I am sold already, though. I personally wouldn't bother with further testing.
My last remaining concern is something that will only be able to be tested for in real systems. The "Nitrate Sink" is something I worry about. After my "fight" with the jerk at the LFS about MMRL being a "Nitrate Sink" (though I think "detritus sink" would be a more appropriate term), I want to be able to say with conviction and confidence that this rock is a completely safe and healthy alternative to harvested or even cultured LR. Perlites "Filtration" and "Absorption" factors still make me wonder. But I am moving forward with Disco Dancing Rock (who I was told looks like the AOL avatar). I have some used saltwater from my weekend water change, that I will do a 3 day pH test in. If the pH is anything less than 9.5, I will put it in my bug tank.

We will see :)

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10303452#post10303452 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
[B]I will get pictures later today of batches 3 and 4(jiffypop)
Jiffy Rock! Not Pop - don't want to get me sued, do you? lol

[burblerboy]

Insane Reefer, I saw a link on the last split for colors to add, but the link doesn't work. I was wondering if you could post that again please, thank you

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10304825#post10304825 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by burblerboy
Insane Reefer, I saw a link on the last split for colors to add, but the link doesn't work. I was wondering if you could post that again please, thank you

V5.0 has a new link that works (I just checked it) - it can be found on page one of this new split.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10303479#post10303479 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
The perlite does indeed seem to be truly inert.

One final test could be run for any doubters that might remain. Run the same series, but in saltwater, and leave it for a week. One thing I'd do would be to drop the pH in the saltwater into a range that buffering would naturally start to occur - say 7.5-8
I am sold already, though. I personally wouldn't bother with further testing.
My last remaining concern is something that will only be able to be tested for in real systems. The "Nitrate Sink" is something I worry about. After my "fight" with the jerk at the LFS about MMRL being a "Nitrate Sink" (though I think "detritus sink" would be a more appropriate term), I want to be able to say with conviction and confidence that this rock is a completely safe and healthy alternative to harvested or even cultured LR. Perlites "Filtration" and "Absorption" factors still make me wonder. But I am moving forward with Disco Dancing Rock (who I was told looks like the AOL avatar). I have some used saltwater from my weekend water change, that I will do a 3 day pH test in. If the pH is anything less than 9.5, I will put it in my bug tank.

We will see :)


Nitrate sink schmink! :) No way this stuff could be a nitrate sink unless you were forcing water through it like in a canister filter.....and in that case anything could become a nitrate sink.

[mr.wilson]

Your perlite rock will not result in any more residual nitrate than calcareous rock (live rock or aragocrete). The whole idea of an environment conducive to nitrifying bacteria leading to additional nitrification is a fallacy. Only detrital build-up can cause nitrate to climb.

Aerobic conditions and increased surface area do not increase nitrification. Any extra surface area will be redundant.

Perlite could indirectly increase residual nitrate if the core of the rock is more aerobic (more void space) and has less surface area. This would lead to diminished denitrifying capacity, as suitable sites for denitrifying pseudomonas are fewer.

Nitrifying bacteria have ample sites in a conventional tank, so there is no benefit to greater void space. Supplying enough real estate for denitrifiers is a greater concern.

While perlite may be slightly less efficient than calcareous rock, I can't see it having a measurable impact on the system, as long as you have a DSB as a substrate or remote.

I'm curious to see if it chips off in the water. I still have remnants floating in a terrarium after a couple of years.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10305915#post10305915 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
...unless you were forcing water through it like in a canister filter.....and in that case anything could become a nitrate sink.

That isn't the only way - really porous rock tends to trap detritus - you can think of the voids as "poop holes". Detritus tends to settle downwards and collects, especially in those hard to reach places under other rocks, where it is difficult to remove. Those poop holes can get pretty nasty. Then say you have rocks getting blown pretty good with a powerhead - that would indeed force the poop into the rock deeper and deeper.

See where I'm going with this?

And perlcrete is the most porous thing I've ever seen. Seriously.

[spike78]

I think I've got the crumbles. After baking my rocks were hard as..well, rocks. After soaking them for a couple days, if I run my hand along them, pieces just pull out. If I get a good chunk out and squeeze it in my palm, it just crushes.

Am I just expecting too much too soon? Should I just let the rocks dry for a couple days before soaking them? Has anyone else had this issue? I'm wondering if when the salt is removed from the rock, it just becomes too brittle. Or maybe I'm just an impatient bugger.

I'm a bit frustrated at this point and hope I don't have to toss all the rocks I've done so far.

The mix I was using was 1 part oyster shell: 1.5 parts cement: 2 parts salt.

[Insane Reefer]

They shouldn't be crumbly if the bake went well - no one has had an issue doing this in an oven, so I am wondering if my thoughts that fire based heat is too harsh and dry, and there isn't enough moisture in the BBQ. I have had a couple of failed bakes, but those I can attribute to not enough moisture.
Only other thought would be that when you released the salt, the salt was more easily able to mix into the rock and upset the cure; one reason we typically mix the salt in at the end now - too many folks complaining of what you are seeing - friable rock. Usually this is an issue from the onset though - not rock hard, then suddenly not.

If they are this bad already, I'd scrap the lot - it will only get worse as time goes by.

I wonder. In regular cooking, especially over fire or in coals, one wraps the food in a heat resistant material to keep moisture in and to prevent burning - sometimes organic as in leaves, sometimes, as in modern times, with foil. I am curious for those who want to use the BBQ, if you wrapped the rock in wet newspaper or paper towels, then a layer of foil, what that might do. Probably wouldn't help, but it might. Just a late night thought...

[a1amap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10308975#post10308975 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
.
Only other thought would be that when you released the salt, the salt was more easily able to mix into the rock and upset the cure; one reason we typically mix the salt in at the end now - too many folks complaining of what you are seeing - friable rock. Usually this is an issue from the onset though - not rock hard, then suddenly not.

If they are this bad already, I'd scrap the lot - it will only get worse as time goes by.

I wonder. In regular cooking, especially over fire or in coals, one wraps the food in a heat resistant material to keep moisture in and to prevent burning - sometimes organic as in leaves, sometimes, as in modern times, with foil. I am curious for those who want to use the BBQ, if you wrapped the rock in wet newspaper or paper towels, then a layer of foil, what that might do.

How about the plastic baking bags they use for cooking chicken in?
I made my rocks over a year ago, while I didn't bake them I did have a batch that crumbled. My second batch was much harder and had a better mixture of sand and cement. I found if you use different types of sand, the bond is not as strong (ie. argonite sand makes a strong rock at first but then crumbles). I have some rock from the first try that is still breaking off. I use it as rubble rock for frags. The salt worked best when it was added last but not in great quanity. I reduced the the amout of salt mixed into the concrete and then pushed the remainder into the rock after I had formed it. This made craters from the outside in.

[mr.wilson]

I assume baking portland-based rock is similar to baking clay bricks. The low tech (olde school) method of baking clay bricks yields three grades, soft "salmon" bricks, medium structural grade bricks, and brittle dark "clinker" bricks.

The quality of the brick is governed by the temperature and duration of the baking process. The bricks on the outside get overcooked (clinkers), the bricks in the centre get undercooked (salmons), and the majority left are good quality.

It looks like some people may be overcooking the rock. There's a lot of chemistry going on during the curing process. I think it's safe to say that it's a process you don't want to rush too much.

[Insane Reefer]

Clay brick/block and cement brick/block are similar in their methods, but somewhat different from what I've read. With cement there is one grade - either it meets the ASTM standards or it doesn't. When baking, it either makes good cement or it fails - in the industry there are no middle grounds, at least in non third world countries. Or at least that is my understanding of it.

When the industry makes cement items, there are basically two ways they are done. One is a modern method and produces the quickest and most reliable results - they call it autoclave curing. This is a cure done in under twelve hours, within a pressurized chamber at a temps of 450°F, with steam provided. The older method, used often in third world countries, involves what amounts to a solar kiln, again with moisture added. Temps on these are not steady, and the cure takes a lot longer - typically temps are in the 175°F-225°F range, and rock can stay in there for up to two weeks.

We know that cement that is ready for building purposes can be cured in 12 hours. If it can be done that quickly, I don't think we are rushing it very much :)

3 hours at 450°-500° wouldn't be what I'd call over-baking. The worst batch of rock I've baked was at low temps - 225°F. At that temperature, there isn't enough heat to generate enough steam to keep the bake moist (lacking a pump and boiler, this isn't possible in the oven or BBQ), and I ended up with rock that sounds like what Spike is describing. His failed rock probably feels really light weight compared to the better piece, due to lack of pore water in the matrix.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10310069#post10310069 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by a1amap
How about the plastic baking bags they use for cooking chicken in?

Welcome to the thread, a1amap!
Excellent idea! If they don't burn up on the BBQ that is. I've never used them before - are they BBQ safe?

I made my rocks over a year ago, while I didn't bake them I did have a batch that crumbled.
This happens, unfortunately - but not too often. Almost everything we do to make our rocks flies in the face of the cement industry - almost everything we do, according to the experts, is supposed to lead to failed cement, mainly in the form DEF (though there are other processes that can cause failure too), or Delayed Ettringite Formation. Which are basically crystals that form after the cement has hardened - there is no room in the cement matrix for these crystals, so the rock crumbles as the crystals form. Salt is a prime culprit in DEF. Our saving grace is that we are going for porosity, and this porosity gives enough space for the crystals to form, if they are going to, and so we often evade the DEF monster :)

I found if you use different types of sand, the bond is not as strong (ie. argonite sand makes a strong rock at first but then crumbles). I have some rock from the first try that is still breaking off.
...salt worked best when it was added last...
I would say it isn't from the sand - 75% of the rock I've made over the years has been with Southdown, but my Southdown is down to three bags being saved for my never happening 75G, so I am looking for alternatives. I like both the sand blasting sand and the limestone chicken grit. Both of these seem to work just fine. But of the old batches, only like 3 batches came out less than stellar, and those weren't due to sand failure.

The main difference I've come across has been between the rocks with salt and the rock without salt. I've only had one truly failed batch back in the day of non-salted rock. The other two were more recent and involved salted rocks. One batch had my batch too wet, and more salt leeched off. The other was my first salted sand and salt only batch and I mixed the salt in with everything else. I've made like 5 batches with salt/sand only now - small test batches, and each one varies a small amount on the consistency of the rock, though I am pretty good at getting consistent results without salt.
Salt is a wild card, IMO. If making the salt/sand only rock, expect randomness. After a few batches, you get an idea of how it all works, and what works best for you and your expectations, and will see less failed rocks. Anyone can make rock, but as with anything else, more practice makes you better at it. Always try small test batches when trying something new to you - that way, if it doesn't work out, you haven't wasted much time, effort or material.

I use it as rubble rock for frags.
The LFS actually asks for rubble for this purpose. I just give it to him - enough small, good pieces are left in the casting bins that it makes no impact on me and makes him happy :)

[Insane Reefer]

I'd like to take a minute to share some thoughts on Crumbly Rock. This is mainly for the Noobs, who haven't made very much, or those who have been disappointed in the rock they have made. Anyone else who wants to add their thoughts are more than welcome to.

First, I'd like to address "Expectations". I have a feeling that some people are expecting the rocks they make to be as hard as cement blocks or cement stepping stone, because, after all, they are made with cement, so it should be, right? Well, in this case, no - they won't be.
Let's compare our slurry to a typical cement pour slurry.
First, poured slurry's are made with a higher ratio of cement then we usually use. Next, they add enough water that they can pour the slurry - much like an ice cream slurry. I've never been able to pour my slurry; we try to make ours as dry as we can and still have it stick together. Then take a look at the aggregates - they use silica sands and gravel, we usually use calcium based substances when we can - there is a marked difference in each of these as far as strength goes.
And finally, when cement is poured, they try to get it settled down - they drag tools over it to smooth it and make sure it is even and all that. We go for as much openness as possible, and we try not to pack the slurry if we can help it.
Looking at it like this might help people come to a better understanding of what a reasonable expectation of their rock might be.
Our rock is going to flake and shed. The more porous the rock is, the more likely it will be to do so. The better the slurry is made though, the less you will see of it. Maybe you have seen a box of real live rock just after shipping. If you have, you probably noticed the rubble in the bottom. Most distributors are not in the habit of making up the extra weight in a box with rubble - that would be bad business. Most of that rubble simply came from the rock during shipping. Calcium based rock is not the strongest in the world, and essentially, our rock is calcium based.
But flaking and shedding are not the same as brittle rock. Your rock is brittle if you can snap large pieces off after a month or two. Small bits rubbing off is not necessarily indicative of failed rock, those could just be pieces that didn't get adhered well.

My first piece of advice would be to wait. It takes a month for the curing process to reach near completion and the rock to reach something close to its final strength. If your rock seems brittle or flaky, beyond what you should reasonably expect, just leave it alone for a month, in a moist (not wet) environment, like a plastic bag. Some of the early salt rock I made seemed really brittle, too brittle to use, certainly, for the first couple of weeks. It was when I later found it again, in the bottom of a bucket outside, that I realized how nicely it had hardened up. If after leaving it alone, you can easily snap sizable portions off (golf ball sized?), then you have a problem.

My next pieces of advice would be to use a stiff bristled brush, like what you use to clean your grill, to give your rock a good once over when it reaches about four weeks old (or after the pH test in Jiffy Rock). This will remove about 90% of the shedding and flaking, if your shedding and flaking isn't due to rock failure that is. If you have done this and a couple of weeks later it is readily shedding, then I'd say you might have a problem.

Remember that even slight variations can make a huge difference. Humidity and Temperature at casting and during the cure can make drastic differences. A tablespoon of water can make a difference on smaller batches - too wet and too dry can be a fine line. Differences in the cement itself can wildly vary - every plant uses its own recipe to make the clinker. Differences in local materials used for the recipe can ofter vary with availability and cost. My white cement is going to be different then Neptunes' cement, and his, even from the same plant as Sunkools' may vary as well, from lot to lot.

Salt can mess up the strength of your rock, so if you used salt, think about that. If you added it upfront, with the aggregates, you may have over-mixed it and too much salt mixed into the batch. Try adding the salt after the slurry is mixed and ready - and just lightly mix it in.
A ratio of 1:3 or 1:4 is best for us. 1 part cement to 3-4 parts "other", which includes salt.
If you are trying Jiffy Rocks, do not remove the salt prior to baking.

And finally, realize that even the best made rock can still chip and shed once in a while. Moving it around in your tank, bumping it against each other (esp larger pieces), will inevitably cause bits to shed or chip off, unless you went for rounded ball like shapes, which seem to loose less, but also seem less porous too.

I hope this helps a few people out there. I know that having something you worked hard on, that doesn't turn out like you wanted, can be disappointing. Hopefully this will help people understand what they should expect, and what they can do to correct it...

As always, comments and questions are welcome :)
If you have something to add, please don't hesitate.

[Yinepu]

Has anyone else had a lot of algae growth on the rocks while still in the fresh water kuring bins?....

Or are my rocks just strange?....

[Insane Reefer]

If they are where they will get good light, sure - they will grow algae; at this point the rocks are chock full of nutrients that algae just loves. That is why when they go into our systems they often bloom pretty good. The way I figure it, the more algae you get at this point, the less there will be nutrient-wise for the saltwater algae when you finally put it in the system...

[Yinepu]

Thanks IR..

the bins are out in full, direct sunlight... no lids.. and the algae is having a field day!... i will end up soaking them in saltwater in the bins before they go into the tanks...

[spike78]

Here is a picture of all my baked rocks to date and their possible tank position. I left them out of the water overnight and they seem to be pretty hard right now. I'm just worried that when I soak them, they seem to get soft and brittle. I don't want to put these in my new tank if they are just going to get soft, break, and foul my tank. I'm going to put them in a bucket and put them behind the shed and go look at them after a while.
I'm a little concerned with my design as well. There are lots of caves, holes and cracks, but the bottoms and tops of most the rocks are pretty flat, am I going to have problems with flow in these areas?


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/158884AllRocks.JPG


I'm expecting my tank in about 6 weeks so I'll have to make a decision whether to use these rocks or not. I figure my choices are these rocks + 100# of Marshal Island, or 175# of Carlos Rocks with 50# of Marshal Island.

[mr.wilson]

I agree with your correlation of brittle rock and salt (DEF). My thoughts about overheating the rock were in context to the crystallization of salts within the rock during the baking process.

I think you're right. It's the lack of moisture, rather than excessive heat or duration of baking that causes the spalling.

[Insane Reefer]

I had the unfortunate honor of watching my neighbor cook some steaks out on his grill last night while working in my yard. He would take a pull off his beer, then open the grill, poke at the meat some and then liberally splash his beer (the same one he was drinking!?!) over the meat, close the lid and repeat. He was basting his steaks to provide moisture. This brought to mind images of rich, fat, naked guys sitting in saunas, ladling water over the hot lava rock, producing steam.
Besides being thoroughly disgusted, I had an idea for the BBQ crowd.
Might it be possible to make a foil (cookie sheet?) barrier between the flame and the rack, and ladle water onto this foil at really regular, short intervals, thereby providing more steam. Or do you think that would just let what steam there is, escape as the door is opened more often?
I'm not sure that this would provide better results then wrapping the rock in wet something another and foil, but it might be worth a try...

[goldmaniac]

if using a BBQ to bake the rocks, I have an idea.

A college meal i used to cook was called "Beer Can Chicken". I fire up one side of the grill, and then place the whole chicken on the other side of the grill, out of direct heat.

the whole chicken would get seasoned, but the main gimmick is that I'd take a can of beer, drink half, and then poke holes in the beer can sides and proceed to stuff it up the chicken's butt and let the chicken sit on the beer can, upright, on the grill. Great recipe of you can walk away for 2 hours, by the way. extremely juicy chicken.

Anyway, why couldn't we put a metal pan with water over the flame on one side, and put the MMLR on the other? you'd avoid direct heat on the rock, and you'd have a place to keep a water pan for maintaining humidity.

maybe this is standard procedure, SOP, for baking MMLR this way. I've been keeping up but didn't see any/many entries for baking rock on a grill. good idea.

-G.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10324396#post10324396 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
Anyway, why couldn't we put a metal pan with water over the flame on one side, and put the MMLR on the other? you'd avoid direct heat on the rock, and you'd have a place to keep a water pan for maintaining humidity.
It sounds reasonable - if the issue isn't with the steam escaping from all the vents and uneven joins in the BBQ.

maybe this is standard procedure, SOP, for baking MMLR this way. I've been keeping up but didn't see any/many entries for baking rock on a grill. good idea.


I hate to sound uppity, lol - but I don't think there is a SOP for baking LR - I'm pretty sure that I am a ground-breaker in this area. Or if someone else out there has developed a working method, they haven't shared it online that I can find.
I did a lot of googling before trying this idea, and if I even found mentions of baking rock in any forums, usually it was followed up by a failure post, and you guessed it - all complained about friable rock...
And I think Spike is the first to post on the thread that he had actually used his BBQ - a few have talked about it, but nothing has been posted, so...

[Rhodophyta]

I just happened to see PRP Powder used on TV. It is very small air filled hollow spheres of beeswax. No idea how expensive it would be but it would seem like a alternative way to lighten rock and make it more porous without using salt. It is biodegradable so it would eventually all disappear and it's mostly air to start with. It's made by Universal Remediation, Inc. in Pittsburgh PA.

[johno4]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10324396#post10324396 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
if using a BBQ to bake the rocks, I have an idea.

Anyway, why couldn't we put a metal pan with water over the flame on one side, and put the MMLR on the other? you'd avoid direct heat on the rock, and you'd have a place to keep a water pan for maintaining humidity.

-G.

I was going to suggest the same thing, a pan of water should last a long time before it would need to be refilled.

By the way I posted a while ago about my rocks that seemed to cure in about a week in tap water. Well it was true they are in my tank. I will try and get some pics tonight when I get home.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10331730#post10331730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by johno4
By the way I posted a while ago about my rocks that seemed to cure in about a week in tap water. Well it was true they are in my tank. I will try and get some pics tonight when I get home.

Interesting. You never answered the questions posted to you about these rocks, so more info would be appreciated. My memory says these are now around a month old, correct? That would be within the normal time-frame for using them.
But a one week cure/kure with traditional portland is not. A week hasn't even seen the hydration phase completed, unless using quick cement or baking.
I'd asked about materials used, your methods, etc. as well as asking if you were sure your pH test was accurate, but you didn't reply (or if you did I didn't see it). So I will ask again. :)

[Insane Reefer]

I went to the LFS to spend some of my birthday money, but to also take "Disco Dancing Rock" (my first perlcrete test) in and see what he thought of it.
He really liked it :)
I had just done the 3 day pH, in saltwater, and this 10/11? day old rock was stable at 8.5. I was just showing it to him, and mentioned that I needed to put it in a tank, and I was going to sacrifice my 10g bug tank but he snagged it and put it in the fish display. I'll get a pic of it when next I'm out that way. I'm curious if he plans on giving me the rock back after we see if it harms anything, lol.

[johno4]

Sorry for the delay with the response to your questions, I just got really busy.

rock was made using 3/1, sand/portland cement. The sand was kolorscape sand found in the garden center at Home Depot. I formed it in a sand mold like the traditional method in a styrofoam fish box. After 20 min. or so I poured a pitcher of water over the mold and covered the entire container in a garbage bag so no water got in or out (it was outside and it was going to rain). 3 days later I took it out and put it in water (rubermaid tub), I changed the water every 2 days and the ph was around 8 after a week. So the total time was about a week and a half. No clue why it was so fast:)

Here are some pics, sorry for the algea everywhere, the tank needs to be clean. I just made 2 large rocks.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/johno44/100_1008.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/johno44/100_1007.jpg

[johno4]

Ph was tested with ph paper from my science lab at school. Its pretty accurate, but I wouldnt say exact.

[Insane Reefer]

I like that first rock - the one with the Buddha; Gotta love Buddha. My hubby and I have thought to maybe do an ancient greek ruin theme if we ever have the money to finish setting up the 75G.

I've been using litmus paper too. I'm lucky that our room-mate is green/blue colorblind - he sees blues and greens as shades of grey. pH 8-10 on my litmus paper are olive green shades. Between us, we have gotten pretty good at getting accuracy with them - the litmus chart is in whole numbers, but there are shade differences for the "tween" results, if you can differentiate - and having the colors translated to grey-scale makes the differences more obvious, I think...

I have no explanation for your rocks' results - nothing you did or used varies greatly from what most typically do.
Anyway, if it doesn't crash your system, Good Job!
Keep us posted :)

[johno4]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10334272#post10334272 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I like that first rock - the one with the Buddha; Gotta love Buddha. My hubby and I have thought to maybe do an ancient greek ruin theme if we ever have the money to finish setting up the 75G.

I've been using litmus paper too. I'm lucky that our room-mate is green/blue colorblind - he sees blues and greens as shades of grey. pH 8-10 on my litmus paper are olive green shades. Between us, we have gotten pretty good at getting accuracy with them - the litmus chart is in whole numbers, but there are shade differences for the "tween" results, if you can differentiate - and having the colors translated to grey-scale makes the differences more obvious, I think...

I have no explanation for your rocks' results - nothing you did or used varies greatly from what most typically do.
Anyway, if it doesn't crash your system, Good Job!
Keep us posted :)

I had my fresh water tank set up with that theme, that crap gets pricey. I wish this came up 3-4 months ago I would have shipped you all my ancient ruin pieces, I threw them all away:(

That first rock was made over an inflated latex glove. If you look you can see were some of the fingers were.

"if it doesnt crash your system" are you trying to make me nervous?:p

I will keep you posted, they have been in the tank for a little over a week. So far so good

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10334553#post10334553 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by johno4
I had my fresh water tank set up with that theme, that crap gets pricey. I wish this came up 3-4 months ago I would have shipped you all my ancient ruin pieces, I threw them all away:(
That would have been cool to have had. I am planning on making silicone molds so I can cast the architectural pieces in MMLR, from pieces I can find cheap, like at garage sales, etc.

Making a mold is as simple as mixing silicone rubber with a thinner like denatured alcohol or paint thinner. Prep the piece you want a mold of (if porous, spray with poly or sealer) and then coat it with a thin layer of release and "paint" a first coat on. After that you can either paint the rest on or put it in a shallow box and pour the silicone in and place your piece into that. Once it cures, peel the mold from the original, and if you did good, you have a mold that should last at least a few castings. Use veggie spray to keep the cement from sticking to the silicone.

"if it doesn't crash your system" are you trying to make me nervous?:p
No, that wasn't meant as a scare tactic, but I am really stumped about what happened with your rocks. Everything I think I know about cement says you shouldn't have had those results, not with the method and materials you posted. Not in that time-frame. You should really keep an eagle eye on things is all I'm saying :)

[Neptune777]

How's the "Disco Dancer" rock doing?

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10370245#post10370245 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
How's the "Disco Dancer" rock doing?

LOL - psychic.
I did happen to go to the LFS yesterday. It is in the main fish holding tank. A lawnmower blenny has claimed it in the name of him.
Looks good - owner asked if I could bring in a load of the Perlcrete - I told him he had to buy what I had of the Ol' Skool first - around 125lbs. Then I will bring in a load of the Perlcrete. :D

So 10 day old Jiffy Perlcrete is currently in a system and seems to be fine.

[Azazael13]

no diatoms or anything? say it isn't so

[Insane Reefer]

You have to realize this is in a professional/retail setup, not my little 10G like I planned, lol.

No diatoms. It is getting a hazing of greenish grey algae/grunge, but most cement based rock is going to grow some algae, and I find this type the less offensive (it has no height, just a coloring, really), plus it colors the rock naturally, fairly quickly.

I wasn't planning on stopping yesterday, so didn't have the camera on me - when I take the load of rock in, I will try to remember to take it and get a picture to post.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10370775#post10370775 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
LOL - psychic.
I did happen to go to the LFS yesterday. It is in the main fish holding tank. A lawnmower blenny has claimed it in the name of him.
Looks good - owner asked if I could bring in a load of the Perlcrete - I told him he had to buy what I had of the Ol' Skool first - around 125lbs. Then I will bring in a load of the Perlcrete. :D

So 10 day old Jiffy Perlcrete is currently in a system and seems to be fine.


:thumbsup: That's Excellent!

[Neptune777]

I remember you sayimg that the perlcrete rock was rather fragile/brittle after you first made it. Did it harden up well?

[Insane Reefer]

That first test piece, "Disco Dancing Rock" was pretty hard when I took it in - it did hardened up somewhat more than it was.
Subsequent trials are mixed just a hair wetter then I would make Ol' Skool/+ with, and these harden well.

Still not quiet as hard as just regular Ol' Skool, after the same time period, but nothing to stop one from using it if they so choose, IMO.

[Insane Reefer]

This is my newest test piece - I was going for something like a elkhorn, ended up with either a cross or a dragonfly, depending on your frame of mind.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/dragonflyrock2.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/dragonflyrock.jpg

I cast this piece in limestone grit - I haven't scrubbed this rock off yet, but the sand will be visible even after that.
If you don't want to see the sand, use the sand blasting sand - it disappears.

[Neptune777]

That looks awesome!

[Insane Reefer]

:)
Thanks!

I decided that making rock shaped rocks wasn't the way to go. I'm going with showpieces - arches, cave systems, pillars and the like. Those are the pieces that just don't get seen in the LFS very often, as real LR, so they should sell really, really well...

[grannybj]

IR..what is the Perlcrete recipe ? I read back a few pages and can't find it anywhere . With all the experimentation it got hard to follow for a little while. IF I can find the supplies for the perlcrete , I will be willing to be one of your lab monkey's and give it a shot.
Sorry if I just missed the recipe but I have been following this thread for a long time and I just can't find it . I am about 2 weeks away from adding water to my new 90 gallon tank so I will be needing rock soon.
BJ

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10376258#post10376258 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by grannybj
IR..what is the Perlcrete recipe ? I read back a few pages and can't find it anywhere . With all the experimentation it got hard to follow for a little while. IF I can find the supplies for the perlcrete , I will be willing to be one of your lab monkey's and give it a shot.
Sorry if I just missed the recipe but I have been following this thread for a long time and I just can't find it . I am about 2 weeks away from adding water to my new 90 gallon tank so I will be needing rock soon.
BJ Perlcrete is 1/3 portland, 2/3 perlite. It has other uses besides the reef tank because it is a good insulator that does not explode like concrete with aggregate at high heat, and because it can be carved and drilled.

[Insane Reefer]

Um - a google search returned just 7 results for "perlcrete". Since it didn't seem taken when I was doing my research on perlite and its use in aquariums, I hijacked it for my own use in naming this type of MMLR :)
From what we read, that Neptune posted, when we started really exploring the possibility, there are like 20 grades of perlite, with uses from filtration to fireproofing, paint textures to planters.
It is cool stuff :)

Mine is a bit more like traditional Ol' Skool MMLR:
1cement:1sand:1os:1perlite

Although I did one of:
1cement:1sand:0.5 os:1.5perlite

And it came out rather nice. Like anything else, you can experiment with the materials until you find something you like.

To get results like I did will require baking Grannybj - if you PM me an email address, I will send you the baking info, which includes the test form.

[eshook]

Whew!

It took a better part of a week, but I finished reading this entire thread (from Travis's first post). Now I know I haven't missed anything!

I made some MMLR a year or two ago using the Ol' School method. Its currently sitting in my garage and once I get some litmus paper I will test its pH. I'm hoping its low enough by air kuring to throw in my new tank.

As for new LR - I have some materials, but need cement (the old portland was thrown away when we moved last month) This area is new so I will investigate the portland options here. I hope they sell 50 lb bags and just not the 94. That stuff is heavy! I think I will also try to do a perlcrete rock or two. I have no livestock to risk at the present point and believe it will be inert so I think I will try making some sump rubble with perlcrete to help bacteria growth.

For those who are still BBQ'ing your rock I would recommend soaked burlap (possibly wrapped in foil to hold the moisture). For our wedding my wifes family roasted a pig in the ground. (We went to Hawaii for our honeymoon and had a luau for our rehearsal dinner) To roast a pig in the ground first you dig a hole about 5'x5'x5'. Then you essentially throw wood into the pit until it is almost filled with coals. Once the coals are ~1.5' from the top you stop throwing wood in the fire. You then take the meat (we had the pig cut into 12 pieces for easier handling) wrap it in essentially wax paper, wrap it in burlap, and dip the whole thing into a container of water and throw it on the coals. Once all the meat is in the pit you cover it with a piece of plywood, then a tarp, and throw dirt over it to seal in the heat and remove any oxygen. (No oxygen = no fire) Come back roughly 10 hours later and you have *very* juicy meat. The burlap holds a lot of water and keeps the meat juicy during the cook. I would think it would hold true for the rocks as well. Just an idea.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10378101#post10378101 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eshook
For those who are still BBQ'ing your rock I would recommend soaked burlap (possibly wrapped in foil to hold the moisture)... The burlap holds a lot of water and keeps the meat juicy during the cook. I would think it would hold true for the rocks as well. Just an idea.

Burlap - that would be better then the paper towel/foil option I posted - I had also considered cheese cloth, but that would get a bit expensive if you do a lot of rocks.

Let us know how it goes with your new batch :)

[eshook]

As for the burlap it will be reusable too. Just resoak it everytime (you might want to rinse it afterwards because it will probably get some rock boogers :)

I will keep everyone posted on the progress of my rock. I'm hoping we can find a faster kure time so we can reduce the amount of rock that needs to be pulled from the reef. I'm going to try to contact my brother-in-law and his son. Both of them went to school for heavy highway / bridge construction and they essentially work on cement bridges for a living. I would think they would know at least a few options for faster cure/kure, but I don't know if they will be reef safe. Someone try to remind me to ask them, I tend to forget things ...

[michaelalan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10378371#post10378371 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eshook
I'm going to try to contact my brother-in-law and his son. Both of them went to school for heavy highway / bridge construction and they essentially work on cement bridges for a living. I would think they would know at least a few options for faster cure/kure, but I don't know if they will be reef safe. Someone try to remind me to ask them, I tend to forget things ...

Dude, hook us up!

[mr.wilson]

Sidewalk and curb cement gets a layer of wet burlap to slow the curing process for strength and shrinkage (crack) control, but I'm sure they know a trick or two about cement procedures.

[Insane Reefer]

Engineering and chemistry are two very different beasts - but it never hurts to ask. People in the field often think we are nuts because of what we do to our cement - which is exactly what the pro's don't do. They want solid, perfect cement/concrete, we go for the exact opposite.
If they don't just stare at you (very common), let us know what they say, please :)

[eshook]

Are there any specific questions you would like me to ask? I think I'll start by emailing them. So if I had specific questions that might get the conversation started.

[medic29]

eshook - don't go out and buy any portland right away, come on over - you can have as much as you want. Maybe we could make a batch together. I've been thinking about making another batch as well.

[medic29]

I would imagine we would want to know if there is anything that would speed up the chemical curing process.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10378905#post10378905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by medic29
I would imagine we would want to know if there is anything that would speed up the chemical curing process.

There is - Calcium Chloride is one and it is safe to use. It basically turns regular portland or mortar into a fast set mix. Fast set cements pH stabilize much quicker than traditional portland's without.

Eshook, Ask them about Sodium Bicarbonate, and if emailing, reference them to this: http://www.miswaco.com/Products_and_Services/Fluids/Drilling_Products/DrillingProductsDocuments/SODIUM%20BICARBONITE.pdf

And ask if they understand the formula as expressed for precipitating lime. I'd love a layman's translation of that, something like "a tablespoon added to 1 pound of powder cement" would tickle me silly...
:D

Oh! And ask about Powdered Aluminum. Powdered Aluminum is supposed to react with the wet slurry and decomposes (or in some other reaction) into Hydrogen. The hydrogen leaves micro bubbles in the cement, as we ll as adds a "swelling" effect, sort of like "Great Stuff" expando-foam; this could make for some very interesting rock. My question is how much would one use, and secondly (most importantly) what actually happens to the Aluminum? Is it destroyed in the chemical process? Aluminum isn't a huge no-no reef-wise, and our cement contains alumina products, but some people have voiced concerns over it. Wondering if there needs to be concern.

[medic29]

How much calcium chloride would be used in the recipe??

[Insane Reefer]

Would need to follow package directions - usually it is one bag to one bag kind of thing, so then you'd need to break that into portions...

[Insane Reefer]

Here is a little more info.
http://www.flordrisupply.com/cement.htm

But it is this that makes me think that the cement is pulling calcium from our systems to complete the hydration process.

Later this week I will be doing a test on this, but somewhat altered from my original suggested test; I will need to be able to test the calcium chloride solution, so will have to keep the solution within test kit parameters. However I do it, if the solution has X amount of calcium before I add the rock and the calcium decreases, then we will know that there is a mechanism that is using calcium.
So quick question. How do you test CA in freshwater? I'm assuming a saltwater test won't work for freshwater - is there a kit I can get?

[cayars]

I think you read the article wrong.

It is talking about adding calcium chloride to the mix to help it hydrate faster.

Carlo

[eshook]

I went to a few stores looking for perlite and cement. Lowes carried perlite so I looked over the bag to see if there was any additives and didn't see anything. I asked a person if it was only perlite with no additives and they say 'just perlite'. I got home and found out it had miracle grow added. Now I need to go find a new source of 100% perlite.

Lowes carried 10lb bags of masonry and cement mix for ~$1.50 each. (Note: cement mix did not have rock aggregate, only sand) I picked up a bag of each to try. If they don't work I'm not out a lot and it should give me some variety in my rocks. I also plan on testing the pH to see if there is a significant difference in kuring time.

I'm also working on a new experiment that I will detail tonight if I have time. Wish me luck!

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10384984#post10384984 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
I think you read the article wrong.

It is talking about adding calcium chloride to the mix to help it hydrate faster.

Carlo

I think you need a dictionary ;)
Hydration = curing = hardening

The chemical process of the cement hardening, or "curing" is called hydration. When cement is "fully" hydrated, the "kure" (a term we coined to describe the water baths that we use to lower pH), goes exponentially faster.
But it can take dozens of years for typical cement to completely finish hydration (the industry says 90-95% happens in the first 28 days or so) - some cement has been found that 100 years later still shows chemical reactions occurring.

Calcium Chloride (yes, like what we use in our aquariums) was pointed out by Mr. Wilson a while back as a way to turn regular portland into something more closely resembling what he uses in his rock walls, which he can typically use in a week or two, instead of the months we usually go through.

[medic29]

what about rinsing the miricle grow off??

[Insane Reefer]

Of all the horticultural perlites I have seen over the last week, none had anything added.
But I'm guessing you bought this one?
http://www.miraclegro.com/index.cfm/event/media.detail/documentId/e015bc8eb3625a50a2ee8c0684944d00

Yeah, you gotta read the bag - it says it right there on the front "Enriched with Miracle-Gro".
:eek:

I'd try to take it back.

[eshook]

The bag looks similar to that, but yes it said that.

I was focusing my attention on the back of the bag and the back didn't say anything. I'll end up taking it back, but am disappointed that I didn't have it today.

[Insane Reefer]

It is a boo, Eshook - I have to admit I've done that before too, lol.
Wal-mart carries Schultz brand, cheap ($2.98), with no additives ;)
Over in the house plant section - I've used less than half my bag and gotten about 25- 30lbs of rock out of it so far.

[eshook]

I looked at Walmart first, but I couldn't find it there. Maybe I'll look again at a different Walmart. What color is the bag so I know what to look for?

[Insane Reefer]

It is dark green - Schultz Green.
It wasn't out in the garden section at any of our 3 local locations - it was inside near the planters for indoor plants, on a bottom shelf...
HTH

Edit:
Seems I don't know what I am talking about - here is a picture of the stuff I found at Walmart - where I got green from is anyone's guess...

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/perlite.jpg

[mr.wilson]

Adding calcium chloride to the cement mix will speed the curing process, but cement cannot actively draw calcium out of the water. The converse occurs; calcium migrates from the cement to the water, thus increasing the calcium and PH levels.

A drier cement mix will also speed the curing process, as there is less water to remove.

I'm still curious to see how DIY rock would turn out with large crystal calcium chloride or magnesium chloride in place of sodium chloride. Unfortunately, I don't have time to test it myself.

I'm doing a faux reef wall and covering some PVC pipes tomorrow with Bomix Quick Patch. It isn't waterproof like the stuff I usually use (Quikrete), and it has a 20 minute set-time, instead of the 2 minute blitz I'm used to. Preliminary tests using it to cover PVC overflows have been encouraging. I'll post some pictures and let you know how it works out.

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10386570#post10386570 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
It is dark green - Schultz Green.
It wasn't out in the garden section at any of our 3 local locations - it was inside near the planters for indoor plants, on a bottom shelf...
HTH

What colour is the finished product when you use green perlite? Why use green instead of grey or white?

[eshook]

Oh ok, I'll look near the planters. I'm sure we will go shopping again soon. Thanks for the tip!

[Insane Reefer]

Um - he asked about what color that bag was - not what color the perlite was...

Seems I'm not the only person having a "blonde" day, lol :P

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10386619#post10386619 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
What colour is the finished product when you use green perlite? Why use green instead of grey or white? :rollface: :strooper: Good one! :lol: :eek2:
(The Schultz LOGO is green for those who aren't LOL'ing.)

[Kengaroo131]

i dont know how all you get your rock looking so real. my rock that i make looks like cow poo hahaha

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10386884#post10386884 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
:rollface: :strooper: Good one! :lol: :eek2:
(The Schultz LOGO is green for those who aren't LOL'ing.)

Yeah, I guess that's what I get for being so critical of perlite rock. :)

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10387293#post10387293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kengaroo131
...my rock that i make looks like cow poo hahaha

My first few attempts looked like poo too, lol.
If they flatten out after you lay the cement, then your mix is too wet.
Try casting the rocks in sand or salt - you can sort of shape the sand (and the salt to some extent) before putting the cement in, and avoid cow pat rock.

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10386030#post10386030 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I think you need a dictionary ;)
Hydration = curing = hardening

The chemical process of the cement hardening, or "curing" is called hydration. When cement is "fully" hydrated, the "kure" (a term we coined to describe the water baths that we use to lower pH), goes exponentially faster.
But it can take dozens of years for typical cement to completely finish hydration (the industry says 90-95% happens in the first 28 days or so) - some cement has been found that 100 years later still shows chemical reactions occurring.

Calcium Chloride (yes, like what we use in our aquariums) was pointed out by Mr. Wilson a while back as a way to turn regular portland into something more closely resembling what he uses in his rock walls, which he can typically use in a week or two, instead of the months we usually go through.

I'm not sure what your post was trying to convey but "Calcium chloride (CaCl2), has the ability to accelerate cement hydration" is right from the article.

As I stated earlier the article is talking about adding Calcium Chloride right into the mix. It's not talking about the effect of curing the rock wet in salt water that has calcium chloride in the water. The effect will be different. Maybe you might need a chemistry refresher. :)

Carlo

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10387976#post10387976 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
I'm not sure what your post was trying to convey but "Calcium chloride (CaCl2), has the ability to accelerate cement hydration" is right from the article.

As I stated earlier the article is talking about adding Calcium Chloride right into the mix. It's not talking about the effect of curing the rock wet in salt water that has calcium chloride in the water. The effect will be different. Maybe you might need a chemistry refresher. :)

Carlo

I can see where you might be confused - two different issues are being discussed here in regards to calcium chloride - which if you haven't followed the thread, you wouldn't know.

Your attitude isn't appreciated either way.
Possibly reading back a ways before assuming you know what someone else is talking about would be a good idea, before you try to point out their presumed shortcomings.

1. Calcium Chloride can be added to the slurry to hasten chemical curing, or hydration.

2. An experiment to see if fresh rock has the capability to pull calcium from water in an effort to continue its' hydration phase, to be completed by making a calcium chloride solution with Xppm of CA, add the rock and see if the calcium a. Raises b. Decreases c. Stays the same.

The effect of adding calcium chloride to the water during kure is something that I have discussed as a possible experiment - it is a separate issue from the article I posted in reply to Medics question about something to add to complete the chemical cure (or Hydration)...

Maybe you might need a reading refresher. :)

[Neptune777]

IR, can you PM me the Jiffy Rock cooking guidelines?

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10389682#post10389682 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
IR, can you PM me the Jiffy Rock cooking guidelines?

PM me an email addy - it is a word doc.

[Neptune777]

PM sent! Thanks...

[WharfRat]

Went o Hd and Lowes today looking for perlite and HD had a 4 CF bag for under 10 bucks. I wasn't looking to get quite that much and the other smaller bags they had were Scotts with added fertilizer or some such thing. I was just wondering if you perlite users got the humungo bags or were able to score a smaller version.

[Insane Reefer]

I've posted several times that Walmart has a small bag (8quart) bag for $2.98, Schultz brand, nothing added, in the house plant section inside, next to the planters.

But $10 for 4CF is a great price - I called 2 nurseries friday, and one wanted $32 and one wanted $23 for 4CF.

[Kengaroo131]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10387850#post10387850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
My first few attempts looked like poo too, lol.
If they flatten out after you lay the cement, then your mix is too wet.
Try casting the rocks in sand or salt - you can sort of shape the sand (and the salt to some extent) before putting the cement in, and avoid cow pat rock.

alrighty i'll give the sand a shot thanks!

[Kengaroo131]

ooh and another thing. how do you all get the rock so porous?

[Insane Reefer]

v6.0

Hey All,
I'm going to post my favorite tips and links every so often so new people can find it all pretty easy. It is a summation of the most commonly asked questions and things I have picked up through making my batches. Some I’ve gleaned from this thread, others I’ve learned from past mistakes and experiments. I've been making DIY man-made rock or aragocrete off and on for close to 8 years. Lately, I have even made some money on my rocks.


This does not contain any information on "Jiffy Rock", the new method I am working on to produce rock in under a week or 10 days. This only pertains to traditionally cured rock methods.

I thought I’d pass this info on – maybe save someone some frustration or spark a new idea.

I will continue to refine and update this post as more info is added, and repost every so often.
:)


First, good info can be found at these two places - I think everyone who wants to make rock should read these in full. One of the articles gets pretty heavy handed with the science/chemistry aspect, the other babbles on tangents once in a while, but both are worth the read, IMO.
ARAGOCRETE RESEARCH BY TRACY GRAY (http://www.garf.org/news17p1.html)
Reef Propagation Project: (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6279/RaiseCementRock.html)

And this link is for Cement Colorant (http://stores.ebay.com/Olde-World-Concrete-Molds_Concrete-Colorant_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ14QQftidZ2QQtZkm). They sell it in small amounts in rainbow colors and are very cheap.

List of Appropriate Aggregates
Sand - caribbean/aragonite is best, but very hard to find at a reasonable price. Any “clean” sand will work. “Toys R Us” carries a play sand that a lot of folks use and report no trouble with. Limestone sand/Pulverized Limestone has gotten good results as a DSB, so should also work and can be found at some Big Box Stores like Home Despot. Sand Blasting sand can also be used and is sugar fine.
Crushed Coral - AKA "CC". Makes nice, realistic rock, but expensive.
Crushed Oyster Shell - AKA "OS". Any shell will work, but OS is very cheap at feed stores.
Calcium Carbonate - This stuff comes in a range of textures and grain size – from sand to gravel like CC. Most feed stores will carry it, and for less then $4/ #50.
Dolomite :D – Same as Calcium Carbonate, just another name (and slight chemical variation) and is just fine to use.
Perlite - Completely inert and cheap. Use to replace CC in Ol' Skool mixes.
Salt - Many thanks to Travis Stevens for figuring this out! The salt of choice is "Solar Salt Crystals", typically found as a Water Softener Salt. 99% pure salt. Get the coarsest crystals you can find. Solar Cube can be used, but is sort of chunky - makes nice holes though. Boiling the "cubes" rounds off the edges and makes nicer holes. Solar Pellets can also be used, same as Cubes. Look at your grocery stores or wally-worlds if your local hardware doesn't have what you want.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/125181salt-types.jpg

Rock Recipes
Ingredients are measured by volume, not weight!

Travis’ Original Recipe: 4:1 or 3:1 / Salt:Cement
Improved? Recipe: 3:1 or 2:1 / Salt:Cement
Ol' Skool+ Recipe: 1: 1 to 1.5 : 1.5 :1 / Salt:Cement:CC&OS(mixed):Sand

Mix dry ingredients together first, excepting salt - add tiny amounts of water while vigorously mixing the slurry. Slurry should be “dry” and crumbly, not wet and squishy – there is a fine line between the two. A wet mix will not have as many natural voids in it, be less porous, and will also bind to the salt, making salt release more difficult. Once you have reached a slightly wetter mix then you think you need, lightly toss the salt into the mixture, and then mix it very quickly – the more salt that leeches off the crystals, the more deleterious the results can be. Be aware that a dry mix may give the illusion for the first week of being more brittle, but after a week or so, it toughens up and is nice and hard. After you make your rocks, they need to be kept moist and warm for a week or two to achieve the best hydration possible – though many do take their rock out and start salt release or kuing in 3 days or so, and haven’t reported any bad side effects. Plastic bags, wet newpaper, wet casting materials and the like will help seal in moisture. If you think the rock might dry too quickly, mist it with a bottle or hose every so often.

Molding Material
Really, pretty much anything that is dry and crumbly/powdery will work. I've even used stuffing bread crumbles, but that draws bugs while it dries.

Soil
Salt
Sand
Clay

A certain portion of the molding material will remain on the rocks - this can usually be removed with a short acid bath, followed by a good scrubbing with a plastic or fine wire, bristle brush.

If you use Rubbermaid or Tupperware, you can reuse molding material over and over again. Line cardboard boxes with plastic to prevent moisture leak and wall collapse.

DO NOT Wet Salt, if it is used as a mold material - this means when working with salt, do not add water to the casting box as you would or might with say clay or sand.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I will list my tips and tricks, in no particular order. Many will seem stupid or like common sense, but you don’t know about some people’s kids, lol…

Tips and tricks

1. Wear gloves when making rock. If possible, don’t let the cement get on your skin, especially the dry powder. If possible, wear a painter’s mask when measuring and mixing dry cement; this stuff can really burn the inside of your nose.
2. Setup your work area in advance; cover surfaces with plastic or old sheets if needed (like in your kitchen or living room). Fill casting containers with whatever mold material you are using, or have it standing by within easy reach. Give yourself walkways if you are making a lot of rock – nothing sucks as much as trying to create enough work space after the fact. :(
3. Think about the weather for not only the day you cast, but the next few days as well, if you plan on doing this outside. Rain can make a mess of things…
4. Use Portland Type I, II (I/II) or III – these are known to be safe for use and make rock with proper porosity.
5. Mix all aggregates excepting salt into the cement before adding water. Add salt after you have reached the right wet consistency, and mix it in lightly – the less salt is leeched off the grains of salt, the stronger your final rocks will be. Water softener salt of the type “Solar Salt Crystals” works wonderfully (Thank you Travis Stevens!).
6. I prefer to use crushed coral and sand in my rocks for long term strength, plus salt to add porosity. The aggregates also give realistic details to the rock. My preferred recipe is 1.5 part cement + 1.5 part sand + 1 part crushed coral/shell mix + 1 part salt, but this is expensive to make. You can also use a mix of 1-1.5 cement + 1-2 crushed oyster shells + 1-2 salt.
Mainly, a 1 part cement to 3-4 parts “other” is acceptable, whatever you want to mix together is up to you and you should be ok if you follow the 1:3-4 part rule.
7. Work in layers for added dimension. If you lay a layer of molding stuff in your container, make a few divots in this molding layer first, and add cement to these first to make lumps on the bottom, you can avoid flat bottomed rocks. Now lay the main part of your rock, adding molding material as needed.
8. You can make neat “cliff-face” striations if you take a handful of salt, and lay it just along the top edge of wet cement, forming a narrow line of salt along the edge, laying a thin layer of cement over the salt, and repeating this to form, on the outer edge of your rock, a sort of cliff that looks to be cut by water action.
9. Anything cast thinner than an inch is likely to break, unless you are very careful with it.
10. Find a nice bit of stainless steel or aluminum wire – 2mm or so in width, and bend a handle for one end (remember you will probably be wearing gloves, so bend accordingly). As you cast your rock, use this wire to poke Lots of little tunnels all through the rock – all the way through if you can; this will make the rocks extra porous, and give bug life lots of places to hide and propagate in-tank, as well as allowing more water to move through the rock. Alternatively, you can cast the piece, and then poke as much of it as you can – though this way tends to look a bit contrived. I like the first way better.
11. Once your rock has cured and it has been curing for about a week and if you made it mixed with stuff like crushed coral or shells, mix up a weak acid mix and scrub the outside of your rocks with a stiff bristle brush. Be sure to take proper precautions when working with acid – not only from burns, but from fumes as well!!! If you only made your rock with salt and cement, ignore the acid wash, as your rocks might dissolve, but still give them a vigorous scrubbing - this will loosen the weakest stuff and get rid of it without shedding it all over your tank. If you have shells or coral, this can make the surface even more porous, and clean cement films from shells and the like that might be on the surface. I use a mixture of 1/2c muriatic acid added to 2c water.
12. You can make “lock together” pieces by wrapping a bit of PVC in something like tissue paper or plastic wrap, sticking it in the wet cement of “part a”, and then laying plastic wrap over and around the fresh cement/PVC, and then cast “part b”, making sure to get a good fit around the PVC join. I find this works, but I personally have an easier time if I cast “part a” with PVC set into it, let it cure, then wrap it well with whatever, and cast “part b”, and I can cast really large pieces this way.
13. “Cement Paint”. You can make up a slurry of cement and sand, say 1 part cement to 2 or 3 parts sand, made fairly thin and fairly wet and sloppy, and use it to decorate rock with “coralline algae”. I use white Portland, but I don’t see why white grout or mortar wouldn’t work as well. You can use cement colorants to color the cement any shade you desire. Working with a paintbrush, you can easily replicate the swirling patterns of coralline. I’ve also used this mix to paint/dry brush grey Portland rocks to white.
14. Branching rock/Coral skeletons. Pick PVC pipe a bit thinner than what you want your final piece to be. Cut into appropriate lengths, cutting one end flat and the other at an angle. Drill plenty of holes in the PVC to help the cement stick on. Drill extra holes on the very end that will allow you to tie the pieces onto the “main branch” with zip ties. You can bend PVC into believable shapes using heat from either a propane torch or a heat gun, and a couple of pairs of pliers (use appropriate precautions). After you have your PVC framework, mix a thicker blend of Cement Paint (less water, more cement) and paint/dip the skeleton, covering completely. I recommend hanging to dry, and dipping several times, using a paintbrush to smooth it out and prevent weird drips. When done coating, tie a grocery bag around the hanging piece to preserve moisture and allow to cure 48 hours or more.
15. Think about how corals come to you, as frags and whole colonies, and think about how hard it can be to attach these in your typical rock pile. Flatter surfaces and shallow bowls in larger rock shapes can make latter placement easier.
16. You can make rock “shells” if you want to avoid the rock pile look altogether and these are only limited to your imagination and size constraints. You can stuff the cavity in the back of this hollow construction with cheap $1.99/lbs rock, or whatever you want. I DO NOT recommend making these with the cement and salt only recipe! Make a form of some sort (use your imagination), put it in a box that will fit into your tank (making a rock too big for the target tank blows), and secure it to one side, or more (for multi-part casts) with duct tape. Line the rest of the box with plastic. I made my form from plastic grocery bags stuffed into a garbage bag, with a little air added, and taped that into the target box. Slowly build the shell wall (adding details as you wish), filling the box with salt/molding material, until you have the form covered with a fairly uniform covering of cement. LEAVE ALONE FOR A WEEK! Cover with plastic if you can. See my gallery for pictures of the “”Reef Face” or “Nessy”.
17. Frag Plugs. If you have extra cement at the end of the day, make frag plugs by using a mini muffin pan, and filling with ½in. of cement. Spray the pan with cooking spray for easier release. These can be put in a mesh bag and cured in the toilet tank.
18. Hate scraping the back wall of your tank? You can make thin, wall covering sheets, that can be glued with silicone to the back wall of your tank. Alternatively you could make shelves along those lines. I find casting on a sheet of glass covered in plastic works best for this. Also marking out the actual measurements of the back wall onto the glass helps to avoid sizing issues. I DO NOT recommend using the salt and cement only recipes for this application, nor the use of any salt at all! I also mix this just a little wetter than I normally use. Once you are setup, just drool the cement onto the covered glass. I tried doing large sheets, but these mostly were too weak to hold up and heavy. I find making smaller pieces (12inX12in or so) that abut like a puzzle work best, and sort of give the illusion of looking at a cracked and crevassed reef wall. After you cast these, they need to be kept moist and unmoved for 3 days, 7 days being much better. Believe me. They do. And you will need to mist them once a day. I just covered mine with a garbage bag and used a water bottle to mist it. I recommend an acid wash, as described above, once these have kured for a week.
19. If you make a rock or rocks you don't like, either use fresh cement mix to add some new bits, or break the rock up and use it as aggregate in your next batch - no waste is good.
20. The moister you can keep the cement while it cures, the harder the final rock will be - try wrapping it in a bag, or misting it while it cures. Supposedly, if you can let it sit for two to four weeks before starting to water kure, it will dramatically speed the kure time.
21. Dust your molding sand with oat flour for easy removal of surface sand. Thanks Rhody!
22. Mix molasses with your molding sand to give it more texture. Thanks Rhody!

Various things I have used and have worked for me for adding details:
1. Cemented Nylon String. Makes realistic tube worm/duster tubes. Make a thin paste of just cement, and dip small lengths of the sting in. Wipe excess off between fingers and lay onto the rock in desired figure.
2. Veggie Capsules. These can make little tunnels when laid end to end in the wet cement, and then covered with more cement. Or poke into outside edges to mimic polyp holes. Do NOT mix into the cement mix.
3. Nori Sheets. These can be wetted and formed into shapes or rolled into tunnels.
4. Balloons. Both the round and “animal” ones work. I find that filling them with water makes them stronger. Doubling them up works well too. Make sure that you can get the balloon out afterward - i.e. leave the knot sticking out.
5. Cardboard Rolls. Can be cut to form bracing, tunnels or for pillar shapes. Be sure to use it in such a way as will allow you to remove it after a few days of kuring. Hemostats work great for grabbing a-hold and pulling it out.
6. Tissue Paper. The white stuff you find in gift bags. Disintegrates quickly during kure. You can make little (or big) “salt bags”, that you can lay into the middle of larger rocks to give more holes for ‘pods and the like. Can be used to make caves and tunnels. Just use a small bit of paper, lay some salt in it and twist or tuck the ends – a small bit of cotton thread could be used to secure the package too.
7. Pasta. Must be cooked “Al Dente” before use. Do not mix into cement, it only makes a mess and is a pain to get out of the rock as it gets really hard and crunchy when the rock dries (ever scraped 3 day old pasta off a plate?).
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c133/lubricus/rock56756.jpg
Kured Rock that the pasta is stuck in...
Use to add spaces in the rock, or tunnels with spaghetti (at your own risk). Rigatoni adds a nice effect if placed just right. If you use pasta, you MUST keep the rock moist at all times – if the pasta dries, it will most likely never come out, ever.
8. Jelly. No, not like PB&J, but those toys, etc made of the product known as silicone jelly – often comes in wiggly balls. Also fishing bait worms made of the jelly/rubber. No need to lube them – they will release just fine.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/125181tunnel-stuff2.jpg

Things that DO NOT work:
1. Vinegar/acid kuring. Does have its uses, but don’t expect it to kure your rock – it won’t.
2. Bio-degradable packing peanuts/Cheesy-poofs. I can find no way to really use these that is also safe for the tank.
3. Fish food pellets. That was really, really nasty. I don’t want to go there.
4. Uncooked Pasta. As pasta absorbs water, it expands, causing the cement to fracture and crack – cook it al dente if you really want to use it.
5. Alka-Seltzer . Doesn’t work. It dissolves too quickly.
6. Yeast. Doesn't work. pH kills the cells before they can respirate. Though during the Kure, this might be a speed option.
7. Co2. Ok – it does work, but only under high pressure. Adding into H2O will only make soda pop (carbonic acid), and eat away at your rock, causing fresh, high pH surfaces to be revealed.

Salt Release
If you used salt in your rock, it must be removed before kuring can happen. Salt will release in hot water much easier than it will in cold water, and boiling water works best of all. It generally takes two days to two weeks to remove salt, based on factors such as wetness of the slurry, aggregates used and density of the cast piece. Removing the salt will take several water changes. Boiling is also a viable option, and may also help reduce pH - hydrogen carbonate ions can decompose forming insoluble calcium (or magnesium) carbonate, which then are flushed away.

If you aren’t sure that the salt is gone, you can do a “Taste Test”. After draining and rinsing the rock (pick your largest/thickest piece), allow the water to drain out for a few minutes. Pick the rock up and use your finger to catch a drip of water from the bottom of the rock and taste it. If there is still salt present, the water drop will be salty. If the salt is gone, the drop will taste of mineral water and very slightly sweet.

Rock Kuring
Kuring your rock is the next hurdle. It is really, really best to leave your rock alone for at least a week before starting this step. According to Quikcrete reps, it takes 7-14 days for the rock to stop curing/hardening (though this process is actually going on for a lot, lot longer) - even though it looks and feels done. Testing standards say it takes 28 days to reach full strength and before testing for commercial applications can commence. By putting your rock in the kure bin too soon, you are wasting a lot of water, prolonging the hydration process and making weaker rock. Rocks during this 2-4 week period will naturally loose pH - from 12-13 at casting time down to 9-10, with NO WATER USED. I theorize that rock left longer, like 8 weeks, will only need a week or so of kure time (and a lot less water and effort!).

Kuring is pretty straight forward. Lots of time, and lots of water changes with adequate water volume, unless you have access to a reasonably clean waterway. Powerheads help force water through the rock and help the insides kure out. Adding heat to the bucket, upwards of 90°F will speed things along.

When your bucket kured rock quits leeching out white scum on the surface of the water, and stops leaving a white residue on the bottom of the bucket and on the rocks themselves, you can start checking for pH. Rock has been known to kure in as little as 2 weeks, but most bucket/bin kured rock takes 6-8 weeks to reach safe levels – some will take up to 3 months. Be prepared to wait.

To properly test for pH, change the water – either use RO/DI or aged saltwater – saltwater is preferred since this is what the rock will be sitting in for the rest of its life. Let the rock sit in this for 3-4 days without air or powerheads – you want still, stagnant water for this. After the 3-4 days, give the water a bit of a stirring and check pH with appropriate test kit. If it is in the acceptable range of 8.0 to 8.6, it is probably safe to use. If not, continue to kure.

You can use any acceptable pH testing method. The test you use should have a testing range of 5-10 at a minimum. I like using Litmus Paper. It can read pH from 1-14, and is fairly easy to read. Litmus paper can be gotten at “Hobby Lobby” for $3.89 per 100 strips. These can also be used to test your reefs’ pH ;) Litmus can also be found at pharmacies, online, and at other full service hobby stores, usually in the section that has things like “Magic Crystals”, and horseshoe/bar magnets – the “Science Section”.

Once kuring has finished - reads between 7 and 8.6 on pH, your rock can be used :)
If added to a newly established tank, you can go ahead and put it all in at once. If the tank is older, with inhabitants, you may wish to add a rock or two at a time, to allow the system to “settle” between each addition. Maintain pH testing for the first two weeks and buffer if needed.

Expect an algae bloom. :eek1:
A few people, those who either have waterways to kure in, or those with really butch systems have reported no algae blooms, but I suspect they are the exception, not the rule. If your tank blooms, don’t panic. Most tanks bloom within the maturation period anyway. Double check your system for things like NO2 and NO3, and other algae causing symptoms and correct anything that isn’t up to snuff. Take all the normal steps to curtail the growth, but then just ride it out. If the bloom is caused by the rocks, the algae will soon deplete the readily available nutrients and starve itself out. If it doesn’t go away within a few months, then you should check into other reasons for the bloom.
New Tip! If you place your rock in tank with low light for two weeks to a month, you can avoid most of the bright green covering algae – low lights allow the rock to settle in without being attacked by algae so badly…

Well, I think that about covers my repertoire. I apologize for the length of this post, but hopefully some of you will find something of use…

I encourage the rest of you to take some time to write up your experiences and tips and share them with us – by sharing our experiences, we all learn and get better and better at making our own rock.

Good Luck, and Rock On!
:rollface:

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10393445#post10393445 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kengaroo131
ooh and another thing. how do you all get the rock so porous?

By making a "dry" mix with the cement - it shouldn't be slushy, but more crumbly - it is sort of hard to explain, when you get it though, you should know.

Salt is also a way to add porosity - read my above post - it should answer most of your questions.

[bigtex52]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10377193#post10377193 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Um
Mine is a bit more like traditional Ol' Skool MMLR:
1cement:1sand:1os:1perlite

Although I did one of:
1cement:1sand:0.5 os:1.5perlite



IR, maybe I am just a little dense tonight, but in the above recipes, what is os? Really enjoying the thread. Can't believe I finally got to the end of it!:rollface:

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10393469#post10393469 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Crushed Oyster Shell - AKA "OS". Any shell will work, but OS is very cheap at feed stores. [/B]

[Kengaroo131]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10393537#post10393537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
By making a "dry" mix with the cement - it shouldn't be slushy, but more crumbly - it is sort of hard to explain, when you get it though, you should know.

Salt is also a way to add porosity - read my above post - it should answer most of your questions.

awesome! it deffinatly did thanks so much!

[Insane Reefer]

Good!
Post us some pictures of your next rocks, ok?

Good Luck!

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10388154#post10388154 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I can see where you might be confused - two different issues are being discussed here in regards to calcium chloride - which if you haven't followed the thread, you wouldn't know.

Your attitude isn't appreciated either way.
Possibly reading back a ways before assuming you know what someone else is talking about would be a good idea, before you try to point out their presumed shortcomings.

1. Calcium Chloride can be added to the slurry to hasten chemical curing, or hydration.

2. An experiment to see if fresh rock has the capability to pull calcium from water in an effort to continue its' hydration phase, to be completed by making a calcium chloride solution with Xppm of CA, add the rock and see if the calcium a. Raises b. Decreases c. Stays the same.

The effect of adding calcium chloride to the water during kure is something that I have discussed as a possible experiment - it is a separate issue from the article I posted in reply to Medics question about something to add to complete the chemical cure (or Hydration)...

Maybe you might need a reading refresher. :)

I fully understand how cement hydrates. I originally pointed out what you were trying to do is the "opposite" of what the article was doing from a chemistry standpoint.

You in turn made a comment that I need a dictionary and tried to explain what hydration is. I fully understand how, why and what it is or I would not have tried to show what you wanted to do wasn't what the article was about.

You then come back and reply that you can understand why I'm "confused" because I haven't followed the thread. I've read every message since the thread started with splits.

I haven't had an "attitude". If anything one could say it's the other way around. Please don't "assume" you know what knowledge someone else has especially when you don't know them.

For the sake of argument I think you mis-read what I said originally or you wouldn't have made the "dictionary" comment.

Carlo

BTW, what I was trying to convey without saying anyone is "stupid or ignorant" is that there is no need to try an experiment to see if fresh rock has the capability to pull calcium from water in an effort to continue its' hydration phase. The chemistry of cement doesn't work that way. It's actually the opposite as it will "leach" it out, not pull it.

This was actually covered a long ways back, earlier in the thread. Mr. Wilson has also mentioned this recently also.

Please no need to make any smart remarks back. That doesn't help the thread at all. Maybe I wasn't clear initially but I wasn't trying to have an "attitude" or anything like it. I was simple trying to save you time from trying something that doesn't work for obvious chemical reasons.

Carlo

[Insane Reefer]

I think you read the article wrong.

Boy, if that isn't a red flag, I'm not sure what is. And then you go on to tell me what the article said.

I knew what the article said, I didn't need someone to translate for me.

I also know what I was talking about - if you had, you wouldn't have made any of those statements, or maybe you would have, I don't know you, so who's to say.

The experiment is only for New rock - rock that more than likely still has an active chemical process going in it, not for older rock. When I say new rock, I mean rock that has gone through the cure and the kure - My thoughts are that just because we have the pH at an acceptable range, doesn't mean the process has stopped and if the process hasn't stopped I think it possible that there can still be an exchange of molecules. The experiment was first proposed to me by a 4th year genetics student, with a strong background in bio-chemistry.

Just because something has "been covered" doesn't mean a hill of beans until empirical proof is presented. I've asked for this proof, in the form of articles, etc, but haven't had even a link submitted for my reading pleasure. As far as I can tell, there really isn't any info either way on it. Cement is a little understood material, even to the people who study it for a living.
You'll forgive me if I feel that one or two people going "it doesn't happen that way", isn't exactly empirical proof, and you will also have to forgive me for being a curious monkey. I will do a series of experiments, I will post the results, positive or negative, just as I do with all my other experiments, and I will have fun doing it.

Your opinions on the matter are duly noted.
:)

[Insane Reefer]

It should also be noted that the original proposed experiment also stated that a supersaturated solution would be used.
However testing a supersaturated solution becomes problematic for a hobbyist, hence with my own stated lack of a scientific background, I thought to bring the level of Calcium Chloride in suspension down to a level that could be tested at home.

It has now been explained to me, that this experiment only stands a chance of success if the solution is indeed supersaturated.

I am going to see if my friend at the university can't find someone who can test a supersaturated solution, and who would be willing to do so. Or see if he can gain access to the appropiate lab and do it himself.

He will be returning next month - I will see if this experiment can be done correctly at that time.

[cayars]

Insane Reefer,

First of all, sorry, I'm not trying to be a pain or to minse words. I wasn't trying to challenge, side-track the thread or anything of that nature. Not my intention. I was only trying to save you a "futile" test.

I think you got what I'm talking about, but just to clarify. I dug back a little and think Mr. Wilson said it best so I'll quote him:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10386576#post10386576 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Adding calcium chloride to the cement mix will speed the curing process, but cement cannot actively draw calcium out of the water. The converse occurs; calcium migrates from the cement to the water, thus increasing the calcium and PH levels.


In effect the rock when "Kuring" works kind of like Lime Water.

I can totally understand the objective of the experiment because one might think if "I add calcium chloride directly to the mix and it helps then why not add it to the Kure water". Unfortunately due to the chemical reaction of the cement as it hydrates it does the opposite. By adding it to the water the rock will take longer to Kure because the water will saturate faster. This is why the rock will Kure faster (normally) in FW then in SW.

Carlo

[michaelalan]

I tried the 10% addition of Densified Silica and had no change in pH from my test rock after 28 days. I will try 20% in the next batch to see if that makes a difference. 10% was the recommended amount.

[Insane Reefer]

That sucks Michealalan. I haven't been able to find Micro Silica locally, was thinking of ordering some online - maybe I will wait until you have success ;)

I am going to try some calcium chloride this next batch or so.

[Insane Reefer]

I went to the LFS today, and as promised, I have pictures.
The other rock in the picture is also a piece that I made a while back - it has been in the tank about 2 months now.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/ddr2.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/ddr1.jpg

[mmm55645]

I have a question(sorry if it has already been discussed, I have been through almost the entire thread and didn't see it and I cannot do a search :)


could you use pressure cookers to steam cure the rocks, if you did a piece that was small enough to fit inside the cooker and elevated it above the water? Or is that a silly idea?

--great thread btw, definiately my fav thread about DIY rock.

[Insane Reefer]

MMM.
Medic and I have discussed pressure cookers in PM's. I think if the cooker is big enough to make it worthwhile, it might work really well - better then baking, probably. You would want to raise the rock above the level of the water used, maybe use a wire rack or something. As far as temp and time, well, I'd do small test batches, and start them out at around 400F, and leave them in for 6-12 hours.

Let us know how it goes if you decide to experiment :)

PS - I have sent you the info you asked for - check your email.

[Neptune777]

Holy grubby tank batman! :) Those rocks will get lots of bacteria in there :D

[Insane Reefer]

Yeah, the new owner bought the place in the early spring. The place was in a bad way, and the systems where FUBAR. He has been upgrading and "fixing", but most of it is stop-gap; they plan on building a new store in the next year or so, once the lease is up on the pit they are in now.

That tank was a coral tank until 3 weeks ago, when it got switched to a fish display. With all the work going on, he is battling nitrates and until they lower, he is leaving the algae in. I actually suggested that he leave the algae - if fish are in there it will give them something to graze.

He took the last of my Ol' Skool rock, 90lbs. From here on out, it is going to be Perlcrete, at least for him. I need to take some samples to the other 3 stores I occasionally sell to and see if they like it. We will see :)

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10391288#post10391288 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by micronaut
Went o Hd and Lowes today looking for perlite and HD had a 4 CF bag for under 10 bucks.

Wanna trade bags? LOL

I think I must have the crappiest HD in the world. Everything that others say, "Oh - I found it at HD", is never at mine :sad2:

I spent 25 minutes there yesterday and even had them look it up on the computer system, and the only bag of perlite they had was "Scott's" brand, I think it was, 8qt, and more expensive then the same sized bag at Walmart...

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10417211#post10417211 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Yeah, the new owner bought the place in the early spring. The place was in a bad way, and the systems where FUBAR. He has been upgrading and "fixing", but most of it is stop-gap; they plan on building a new store in the next year or so, once the lease is up on the pit they are in now.

That tank was a coral tank until 3 weeks ago, when it got switched to a fish display. With all the work going on, he is battling nitrates and until they lower, he is leaving the algae in. I actually suggested that he leave the algae - if fish are in there it will give them something to graze.

He took the last of my Ol' Skool rock, 90lbs. From here on out, it is going to be Perlcrete, at least for him. I need to take some samples to the other 3 stores I occasionally sell to and see if they like it. We will see :)


The rocks look pretty clean :)

[Neptune777]

We need to test some coral with the Perlcrete. I am making some this weekend with Calcium Chloride and will put it in one of my tanks when it is ready.....I'll glue some sps frags to it.

[mr.wilson]

I used Bomix "Swift Patch" on some end walls and plumbing this week. It worked out very well, mixed 50/50 with crushed oyster shell. The 20 minute work time helps a lot (compared to the 2 minutes I get with Hydraulic Water Stop), and it only took 24 hours to cure 75%. The remaining 25% will cure under water over the next month, with no significant PH buffering.

I've used this stuff before on some small projects (covering overflows), but was nervous about experimenting with an expensive tank. This tank wasn't cheap, but it's relatively small (36x12x36), and I was ready to try something new.

I used some pieces of eggcrate to make "eggcrete" shelves. The plumbing was done outside of the tank, then added to the tank while the oystercrete on the end walls was still workable. A few touch-up areas were done to blend the plumbing into the end walls.

These pictures were taken before the oystercrete had dried, so you will notice some darker (fresh) areas. It all dried to a uniform "live rock grey" overnight.

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7197.jpg

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7223.jpg

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7246.jpg

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7218.jpg

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7227.jpg

[eshook]

Thats an awesome setup mr. wilson. I think we would all be interested in your progress.

To update my progress, I made 2 test batches with the premade mortor mix and one turned out the other did not (crumbled like sand). It will sit in a container for a while with occasional water squirts and then it will sit in a small tub of water to test for pH. I think I'm going to experiment with dry kuring to save water and energy. (Mostly because I'm lazy :o)

[medic29]

I'm thinking about making a test batch using a pressure cooker in the next week. IR I'll keep you posted how it comes out.

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10418101#post10418101 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eshook
Thats an awesome setup mr. wilson. I think we would all be interested in your progress.

To update my progress, I made 2 test batches with the premade mortor mix and one turned out the other did not (crumbled like sand). It will sit in a container for a while with occasional water squirts and then it will sit in a small tub of water to test for pH. I think I'm going to experiment with dry kuring to save water and energy. (Mostly because I'm lazy :o)

You should give the pieces that crumble some more time to cure. It should turn hard over two to three weeks, if allowed to air dry.

I'm installing the tank today, and will have updated pics.

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10417725#post10417725 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
I used Bomix "Swift Patch" on some end walls and plumbing this week. It worked out very well, mixed 50/50 with crushed oyster shell. The 20 minute work time helps a lot (compared to the 2 minutes I get with Hydraulic Water Stop), and it only took 24 hours to cure 75%. The remaining 25% will cure under water over the next month, with no significant PH buffering. 75% cure in 24 hours? Where did you buy this stuff? I've never heard of it before.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10419052#post10419052 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinepu
75% cure in 24 hours?

That is the perk to using the fast set cements.

That is why I am so hip on trying the Calcium Chloride as an additive - turn portland into something that reacts more like a fast set.

I've not been able to find Bomix anywhere locally...

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10418127#post10418127 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by medic29
I'm thinking about making a test batch using a pressure cooker in the next week. IR I'll keep you posted how it comes out.

Cool Rick. I've gotten a few PM's about my opinions on pressure cookers. Except for the one issue of whether the cookers are big enough to make it worthwhile, I think it is an excellent idea.

I'm exchanging correspondence with one person who seems to be into metal working, and they are curious about steam curing too. I had mentioned an episode where "Mythbuster's" had made a pressurized chamber out of junk, and they thought that was cool. Might be interesting if this person manages to make a pressure chamber out of junk.

Not even sure how one would go about something like that in reality, lol.

[Insane Reefer]

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/floating-reef-1.jpg

Made with 4parts Perlite to 1part cement - I honestly can't remember if I used sand or not (and can't find the paper that was attached!) - if I did add sand, it would have been 1part. These were packed as tight as I could make them.

1 of these has a glass marble in it right beneath the surface, in an effort to give these a "North" and "South", and to prevent random rolling, and it seems to work - the one that doesn't have a marble will roll and settle as it chooses - the other is more like a weeble-wobble - it rolls a bit, but North always ends upwards.

Sorry - been sitting here trying to come up with a witty Star Wars/ Death Star quote that would be appropriate, but the only thing coming to mind is the "Robot Chicken" episode with Vader calling the emperor to tell him the Death Star has been destroyed...
LOL

EDIT:
I just came on this link:
http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2007/726/2?rss=1

Maybe Floating Reefs are an idea whose time has come. If we started floating reefs for the most endangered reefs, the floating one's could be tugged out to someplace safe if a spill or weather threatened them...

[mr.wilson]

Is that a jar or a bottle?

I know how they build ships and grow apples in bottles, but how do you make rock in one?

[reefsbeforehoz]

wow that;s some crazy stuff

[mr.wilson]

There are a number of polymer modified (fast setting) cement mixes on the market. You'll find a few versions at any big box building centre. You can also buy a non calcareous (calcium chloride) additive that speeds the curing time by 50%. Brand names range by region but Quikrete and Thora are widely distributed. Bomix may be "only in Canada eh".

Here are some updated pictures of the reef wall tank I'm working on. I'll post some better ones when it's completed. At least the oystercrete is dry in these ones, so you get a better idea of the colour.

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7260.jpg

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/photopost/data/500/medium/IMG_7251.jpg

[Insane Reefer]

ROTFLMAO!
A trained corps of copeopods?

Seriously, that is a 1gallon pickle jar. The larger of the 2 just barely fit through the top - I had to drop them in. It was the only clear container I had that would accommodate them :D

[mr.wilson]

I think you should make an underwater, tethered mobile of our solar system.

[Azazael13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10420663#post10420663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/floating-reef-1.jpg

Made with 4parts Perlite to 1part cement - I honestly can't remember if I used sand or not (and can't find the paper that was attached!) - if I did add sand, it would have been 1part. These were packed as tight as I could make them.

1 of these has a glass marble in it right beneath the surface, in an effort to give these a "North" and "South", and to prevent random rolling, and it seems to work - the one that doesn't have a marble will roll and settle as it chooses - the other is more like a weeble-wobble - it rolls a bit, but North always ends upwards.

Sorry - been sitting here trying to come up with a witty Star Wars/ Death Star quote that would be appropriate, but the only thing coming to mind is the "Robot Chicken" episode with Vader calling the emperor to tell him the Death Star has been destroyed...
LOL

EDIT:
I just came on this link:
http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2007/726/2?rss=1

Maybe Floating Reefs are an idea whose time has come. If we started floating reefs for the most endangered reefs, the floating one's could be tugged out to someplace safe if a spill or weather threatened them...

I believe I was second in line for a "Death Star", right behind your husband. I am sure without our support you would have given up on the floating balls of doom so we both deserve them :)
:strooper: :strooper: :strooper: :strooper: :strooper: :strooper: :strooper: :strooper:

[Insane Reefer]

LOL.
Silly peoples.

Let's see if I can get the Death Star operational - then we will talk about the solar system ;)

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10423313#post10423313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
[B]There are a number of polymer modified (fast setting) cement mixes on the market. You'll find a few versions at any big box building centre. You can also buy a non calcareous (calcium chloride) additive that speeds the curing time by 50%. Brand names range by region but Quikrete and Thora are widely distributed. Bomix may be "only in Canada eh".


Thanks, Mr Wilson. Is there anything I should look out for (and avoid) on the package labels? I wasn't sure if all of them are pretty much safe or if there was something I should be looking for.

BTW We have Quikrete here so that's probably why I never heard of the Bomix before.

[mmm55645]

I love those "death Star" floating rocks!
I am wondering, could you make caves inside the rock or make it hollow and be have the rock remain stable?

[Insane Reefer]

I don't see why not, MMM - so long as there is something to give it orientation, like a marble, it should work.

Are you thinking a floating anemone rock for a clown? That is what I was thinking...

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10425535#post10425535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinepu
Thanks, Mr Wilson. Is there anything I should look out for (and avoid) on the package labels? I wasn't sure if all of them are pretty much safe or if there was something I should be looking for.

BTW We have Quikrete here so that's probably why I never heard of the Bomix before.

Our (Canadian) Home Depots carry King "Plug-Tite" and Quikrete "Hydraulic Water Stop". I didn't like the Plug-Tite that much, but the Hydraulic Water Stop works well. Don't let the name fool you, it's only water-proof until you add shell or rock aggregate.

You can contact the manufacturer and find out if it's food grade. Hydraulic Water Stop isn't certified as food grade, but it is absolutely reef safe. Quikrete "Quikwall" is certified for use with potable (drinking) water (commonly used in cisterns & wells). I would use it, but it isn't as readily available in my area (special order).

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10425643#post10425643 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Our (Canadian) Home Depots carry King "Plug-Tite" and Quikrete "Hydraulic Water Stop". I didn't like the Plug-Tite that much, but the Hydraulic Water Stop works well. Don't let the name fool you, it's only water-proof until you add shell or rock aggregate.

You can contact the manufacturer and find out if it's food grade. Hydraulic Water Stop isn't certified as food grade, but it is absolutely reef safe. Quikrete "Quikwall" is certified for use with potable (drinking) water (commonly used in cisterns & wells). I would use it, but it isn't as readily available in my area (special order). Thanks for that info Mr. Wilson! (made a note of the names). I'll be at Home Depot next week so I'll see what they have. Do you add an aggregate to your mix?

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10425693#post10425693 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinepu
Thanks for that info Mr. Wilson! (made a note of the names). I'll be at Home Depot next week so I'll see what they have. Do you add an aggregate to your mix?

50/50 cement mix and crushed oyster shell. I get the oyster shell from a farm co-op, sold as chicken grit calcium supplement. It gives a uniform grey colour.

I find aragonite to be too white, giving it a speckled look. Aragonite is also much more expensive.

Oyster shell has the best pore matrix for molecular absorption of silicate, phosphate and many organics. Oyster shell is used as a water treatment media in many industries. It has the same PH solubility as aragonite, so it's the perfect media for the job.

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10426014#post10426014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
50/50 cement mix and crushed oyster shell. I get the oyster shell from a farm co-op, sold as chicken grit calcium supplement. It gives a uniform grey colour.

I find aragonite to be too white, giving it a speckled look. Aragonite is also much more expensive.

Oyster shell has the best pore matrix for molecular absorption of silicate, phosphate and many organics. Oyster shell is used as a water treatment media in many industries. It has the same PH solubility as aragonite, so it's the perfect media for the job. Thanks again! I have oyster shell here already!

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10426014#post10426014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
50/50 cement mix and crushed oyster shell. I get the oyster shell from a farm co-op, sold as chicken grit calcium supplement. It gives a uniform grey colour.

I find aragonite to be too white, giving it a speckled look. Aragonite is also much more expensive.

Oyster shell has the best pore matrix for molecular absorption of silicate, phosphate and many organics. Oyster shell is used as a water treatment media in many industries. It has the same PH solubility as aragonite, so it's the perfect media for the job.

Ever get PO4 issues from the OS? I bought a few bags and did a PO4 test on some in DI water and it regestered pretty high. Is your OS pretty dusty/dirty out of the bag?

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10426485#post10426485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Ever get PO4 issues from the OS? I bought a few bags and did a PO4 test on some in DI water and it regestered pretty high. Is your OS pretty dusty/dirty out of the bag?

I've never tested the crushed oyster shell right out of the bag, but I test the tank over the weeks and months it matures. I haven't measured any significant levels of phosphate.

Yes it contains fine shell (dust) from the crushing process. I don't bother sifting it out, as it binds well with the cement mix. The fine granules will dissolve (calcium carbonate) in the water more readily, but they are mostly buried in the concrete mix.

Phosphate content will range from region to region. I haven't had nuisance algae issues, so I haven't done further testing.

[Insane Reefer]

:sad2:
One of the floating reefs, isn't :(

Today I came down and the one with marbles in it had sank.

Since Mr. Wilson is so against the perlcrete, I messed with this piece. I stood on it, and bounced and nothing happened, so got a hammer. Took 3 swings to bust it. I then took the smallest fragments - pea sized to pinhead sized and dropped those in water to see what they might do. They sank. FWIW, I haven't noticed any of the bits that have shed, floating around or anything - they all pretty much sink, or in the worst case, are light enough to swirl around in a current at the bottom of a bucket.

Floating shed was a small concern for me, but I have laid it to rest.

[mr.wilson]

Good to hear, nobody wants flotsam in their tank, or jetsam for that matter.

I guess the portland weighs it down.

I'm not adamantly against perlite, I just don't see any benefit other than cost. The drawbacks are very minor.

[Insane Reefer]

Actually it was the marbles that pulled it down - the other is still floating.

Next idea would be to use something buoyant instead of a weight - I'm thinking like those little "bubbles" that kiddy toys from quarter machines come in - sealing that with silicone so it won't take on water should keep them floating...

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10429701#post10429701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Actually it was the marbles that pulled it down - the other is still floating.

Next idea would be to use something buoyant instead of a weight - I'm thinking like those little "bubbles" that kiddy toys from quarter machines come in - sealing that with silicone so it won't take on water should keep them floating...

Styrofoam will also work.

[Insane Reefer]

Oooo!
Good idea :)

[medic29]

The large pressure cooker arrived yesterday. I'm thinking maybe Tuesday I may have to make a small test batch of rock and let it set until Thursday, then it will be time to "pressure" cook for ~5 hrs or so. After that, I'll boil them for the salt release.

I was watching a show on the Science channel last night and they were making large cement/concrete "drainage" pipes. They said the pipes had to be strong enough to last 100 years. Anyway, after they cast the pipe they put it in an oven with 100% humidity @ 180 degrees for like 6 hrs for it to cure; they related it to putting it in a sauna. I thought that was interesting since it is similar to what we were looking at doing.

[Insane Reefer]

Awesome - I love the science channel, and that is exactly what we are trying to do. Unfortunately, at 180-225°F, you can't produce (enough) steam in the oven :(

How about a picture of the cooker, with something like a soda bottle for scale?

[medic29]

I was thinking about that and going back to a thought from a while back, wondering if we were to use an older metal box or insulated cabinet of some sort, have some shelves in it to but the rock on, then a propane burner with a metal heat exchanger over it that we could constantly drip some water on it to make steam that would rise. The burner would have to be outside the cabinet and possibly the heat exchanger the bottom of the cabinet. If the burner were inside the cabinet, the steam would put out the flame.

Anyway, maybe that will be a project down the road if I can find the right items to use. For now, I'll try the pressure cooker.

[Yinepu]

Hey IR,
You're not going to bake the ones with the plastic bubbles or styrofoam are you?

Lol at least I hope you aren't!

[Salty Brother]

well i just started my first batch of LR. I made about 100 pounds or so yeterday, but i still have about two more batches cause my brother is starting a 180 and hes giving me his old 75, so we both need plenty more LR. Lets see, I used protland type 1 cement, OS, and morton water softener salt. The OS is for texture and the salt is to make the rock more porus when it dissolves. Its also pretty cool cause you can basically make any shape you want. About half the batch is still sitting outside finishing the first step of curing. Then the second half is in my ultimate curing tank. Which consits of a 150gal cow tank, a high flow sump pump (both found in my back yard, ya thats weird) and a heater. Ill try to get some pics soon, its looking like it could be succesful (knock on wood:D )
Alright Ill add some later.

[Insane Reefer]

Hey Rick, I have been brain storming an idea like that for the last few weeks. Since high heat isn't really needed, beyond getting the water to a temp that it can readily produce the required steam, I'm looking at stripping a hot plate or those little counter top electric burners college kids use in the dorms.

I think I can rig a contraption from a barrel that will have a heavy corrugated aluminum pan (used to feed livestock - purchase at feed store) of a size pretty close to the interior diameter of the barrel. Either welding or just old fashioned bolts could be used to secure it in, install the electric elements underneath that, add a temp probe and control knob, and it should be good to go.
As a fancy extra, I would stand this upright, and have a full length door cut out so I can easily load and unload rock...

Anyone see anything wrong with this?

Yin :)
I don't bake everything, lol - some projects just can't be baked.
:(

Interestingly enough, the floating reefs went through nothing kure-wise. I had sort of forgotten about them, and found them when I was cleaning my rock station in the garage. I'll have to look back through the thread to see when I cast them, but I'm thinking it was about 3 weeks ago. They just sat around for that long. Then I threw them in the jar to see if they floated, they did (one sank), and so I left the remaining, floating one in the jar for pH tests and to see if it too was going to sink. It has been in the jar for 48 hours and the pH is reading 8.5
I thought this was interesting. We will see what the next 24 hours brings, but if the pH stays stable, then with no special treatment, not even kuring, this rock is ready.

Welcome to the thread, Bro'! Sounds like you and your brother have a lot of rock to make, lol, and sounds like you have a plan. Let us know how it goes, and please do post pic's! If you have questions, ask - someone will probably be able to help :)

[Insane Reefer]

Eshook.
Have you had a chance to pester your kin-folk about cement yet?

In a few days, I'm hoping, I will have some interesting reading from a gentleman over in england. He is the director of a cement testing facility and I believe holds a PhD in something cementious.
I had sent off a batch of emails at the beginning of June to as many cement places online that I could find - places like Cement.org and others. I received one reply from all of those emails, and it was just a "sorry, we can't help" type email.

Then, going back through my gmail, looking for an email I never received, I found that I did get another reply. The reply did not amuse me in the least. Seems this gentleman thought that the long email I sent him was a "wind-up" - a joke by one of his academic colleges, and he replied with that assumption in mind.
Needless to say, I sent back a snarky email telling him how not amused I was. I was totally blown away when the very next day I received a very, very apologetic email and a promise to help in anyway he can. He is using the weekend to contemplate my email and come back with a reply, so by Monday or Tuesday I am hoping to have some answers.

Some of my questions are about things "we have covered" in the threads' dark past; I wanted verification on some of the things we have accepted as truths. A few were questions I wanted further clarification on, and a few are "How can we do this better" questions. When I receive his reply, I will post all of the emails that are connected, in order, so you may read them too.

Hopefully none of you will have tears streaming down your face when you read his first reply, like my dear, loving husband did when I read it to him. After he stopped laughing, he turned to me with a mortified look and said, "That's horrible!" - and then busted up laughing again...

[bigtex52]

MR. WILSON,

You say that the Kwikrete Hydraulic Water Stop works well, but according to the product circular, it set in 3 to 5 minutes. How do you get enough working time out of it to get your project done. Do you do a lot of very small batches?

Ted

[bigtex52]

TTT

[Insane Reefer]

Bigtex,
While you wait for Mr Wilson to reply, you can check out this thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=993625
The title is misleading, but it is full of Mr Wilsony goodness :)

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10434295#post10434295 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
MR. WILSON,

You say that the Kwikrete Hydraulic Water Stop works well, but according to the product circular, it set in 3 to 5 minutes. How do you get enough working time out of it to get your project done. Do you do a lot of very small batches?

Ted

Yes, many small batches that overlap an inch to make up for shrinkage.

On the up side, the short work time forces me to get the job done quick. Most of your time is spent mixing cement and washing containers.

Try to find a product with a 20 minute work time. I use Bomix Swift Patch, which I now realize is only available in Canada. It's weird when you do a Google search (Bomix) and see your name in the first listing. It's nice to know my opinion ranks higher than the company website.

Thora "Thorite" (however I heard the name has changed), or Quikrete "Quikwall" will work the same. It's just a matter of availability for me.

For small projects and personal use, I would pay the extra money for fast setting cement. It cuts down on curing time and the labor involved in quickening the process. It also gives you a more malleable material that holds it's form until it sets.

For commercial production, regular portland is ideal. Rocks can be formed and stored for a month before shipping. The rocks can also cure while on the retail shelf.

My intension is to make rocks, then place them in large greenhouse vats (with live rock) for six months. This will yield a commercial supply of mariculture rock without damage to natural reefs. The greenhouse is coming this fall, but production is at least a year away.

[michaelalan]

Mr Wilson,

Do you know the link to the greehouse coraline algea grower thread?

I want to check that out.

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10444422#post10444422 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michaelalan
Mr Wilson,

Do you know the link to the greehouse coraline algea grower thread?

I want to check that out.

I'm not sure which one you mean. Redox, treeman, raaden, and rick rottet ar a few of the greenhouse owners that post here.

Here are some interesting threads about greenhouse projects.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=465933
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=441022&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=246772&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1049850

[michaelalan]

Thanks for the quick response. The thread I was thinking about was about someone placing their lr in a walmart kiddie pool out side and growing massive amounts of coralline algae on them.

Know of that thread?

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10444759#post10444759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michaelalan
Thanks for the quick response. The thread I was thinking about was about someone placing their lr in a walmart kiddie pool out side and growing massive amounts of coralline algae on them.

Know of that thread?

No I don't know the thread.

I would imagine it's a short term success story, as evaporation, temp fluctuations and excessive amounts of UV would be issues.

A blue poly shade will correct the colour temperature and protect against over-heating, but you would require an additional layer of polyethylene for UV protection.

I've heard a few short term success stories of growers going commando, but disaster always strikes in the end. If you were to use a Walmart kiddie pool, you should line it with plastic vapor barrier. The plastic in those pools have fungicidal agents added.

This guy has a nice low-budget set-up. I think geography plays a big part. You need a moderate climate.

http://www.garretts-acropolis.com/

There's another thread floating around about a guy in Spain? with an outdoor reef pool.

[Insane Reefer]

The best/cheapest way I've heard of growing outside has been a cattle trough and blue tarp. Place the trough where it gets morning light. Leave a bit of space between the tarp and the top of the trough for air movement. Add a large pump and a few seed pieces.
Coraline can grow in temps as low as 55°F, so a water trough heater (or two) can be used in the winter to keep it from getting too cold. You can also use a thermal wrap.

[badfish03]

Great bunch of info here let me see if I can add something of interest or at least get someone's creative juices flowing.

IR Posted
I think I can rig a contraption from a barrel that will have a heavy corrugated aluminum pan (used to feed livestock - purchase at feed store) of a size pretty close to the interior diameter of the barrel. Either welding or just old fashioned bolts could be used to secure it in, install the electric elements underneath that, add a temp probe and control knob, and it should be good to go.

Seems like alot of work here are three suggestions any of which might work or not

1) Buy a turkey fryer and then but a 55 gallon galvanized trash can with a semi-loose fitting lid. Put about 10-15 gallons of water in it on top of the turkey fryer. Add some bricks or cynder blocks and round BBQ racks for shelves with your MMLR on them. Get them just out of the water and fire it up place lid back on top. Within an hour it should be producing a good deal of steam with a 5lb propane bottle you can run it for a long time. I do something similar when butchering chickens/turkeys but I only heat to 150f.

2)Buy a gas or electric smoker. I have a Great Outdoors Smokey Mountain Gas Smoker has 3 ss grids about 16" x 12" with about 8" rack space between them. I've used mine on 6 occasions for about 8hrs a shot and have not used up half a bottle of propane yet. Temps can be set from low 200f to 400f by setting on low, medium or high setting.

3)(MOST LABOR INTENSIVE)Build a cynder block and brick kiln (easiest way to do large quantities though) place in metal racks to hold the MMLR (rebar, expanded metal or BBQ grids come to mind) Use propane and a pear-burner or other gas burner assembly to provide the heat. Above the heat source place a grid or rack and place lava rock, fire brick, non-exploding stone or BBQ bricks to heat. Set up a drip pipe to supply small quantities of water to produce steam.(aka sauna)

FWIW HTH
Robert

[mr.wilson]

While all of these ideas are fun projects for some, I think it's most efficient to just throw the rocks on a skid and wait a month for nature to take its' course. The rock will be more than strong enough without a kiln.

The labor and operational costs of baking rocks will exceeded the cost of polymer-modified cement mixes that offer other benefits as well as early PH stability. For those on a tight budget, time is the best tool.

I don't want to take the wind out of anyones sails, but I think all this talk about baking rocks may confuse newbies. Go ahead with your inventions, but add some kind of caveat for the members that are only making rock to save money.

[Insane Reefer]

Ah, but that is why I'm experimenting with other ways - Time.

When you ask most people what they dislike most about MMLR, they tell you time and again that it is the amount of time and effort involved with traditional methods - and finding someplace to let it just sit is another complaint.

Since I put the caveat in the "Super Long Post", that the write-up is not for the Jiffy Rock method (and mentioning nothing else about it in the write-up), I think the confusion remains only for a few individuals who can't be bothered to read past the last page or so of the thread. I certainly get enough PM's for requests on the method - I'm not seeing any confusion there, lol.

[ebe]

On my last rock, a great big one, multi pour, I just let it sit for a week or so covered. Then I set it out on the patio for a couple of weeks, in the sun. I then moved it to my big tub for a soak. I got nearly none of the scum that you get when they go in the soak early. After 2 weeks in the tub I got algae on the rock. I just let my rocks cure in the air and do soaks to just release salt. The sun does a wonderful job and saves a lot of water changes.

[Insane Reefer]

Awesome Ebe!
I'm finding that air kuring for 3-4 weeks works pretty much as well as water kuring, and the stuff that leeches out in the early days is something, really that shouldn't, and doesn't if allowed to cure as it is meant to do.

At this point, I'm about to change the kuring section on the "Super Long Post" to reflect this.

I'd like to find the persons originally responsible for the "Water Kure" and introduce them to my size 9 boot.
:mad:

It's just this sort of thing, that is accepted as fact, that got me going on rock experiments. It will be fun to see what other MMLR myths we can bust :)

[Salty Brother]

ok finally some pics
i think i rushed the water cure fase because i put them in after only like 2 days of sitting outside. oh well, im soon to make another batch, but here the first one
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/schmidtp/LR001.jpg
heres my curing tank
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/schmidtp/LR002.jpg
and some of the rocks
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/schmidtp/LR003.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/schmidtp/LR004.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/schmidtp/LR005.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/schmidtp/LR006.jpg
So what do you think of the rock? am i on the right way to success :D ?

[Insane Reefer]

They look pretty good to me :D

You might think about making your next slurry just a tad drier, which will give more holes in-between the aggregates and a bit more porosity.

But those should certainly work, and look great too.

Good Job!

[Salty Brother]

ok thanks, and i will. and what do you think is the expected curing time on these? thanks

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10453302#post10453302 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
While all of these ideas are fun projects for some, I think it's most efficient to just throw the rocks on a skid and wait a month for nature to take its' course. The rock will be more than strong enough without a kiln.

The labor and operational costs of baking rocks will exceeded the cost of polymer-modified cement mixes that offer other benefits as well as early PH stability. For those on a tight budget, time is the best tool.

I don't want to take the wind out of anyones sails, but I think all this talk about baking rocks may confuse newbies. Go ahead with your inventions, but add some kind of caveat for the members that are only making rock to save money.

Mr. Wilson I agree with you whole-heartedly I was just giving a few suggestions to IR :D

Personally when I do start making some MMLR I will use a faster setting cement mix probably with some colorant in it (koolaid comes to mind) and let it cure under clear 8-mil poly sheeting for a couple weeks adding misted water as needed then do the water bath trick till the PH goes down. This will yield a stronger mix than messing around adding calcium or baking the rock Calcium is great if you are trying to get a project done and strength isn't the big issue, add to much and your concrete falls apart much quicker. Baking also weakens concrete unless the mix is designed for it as the concrete pipe example is.
Just so you know I have more than 25 years experience dealing with concrete and mixes, most of it in heavy highway type construction and most of that time forming, pouring, finishing and curing the concrete. I have spent the last 5 years dealing with mix designs and testing of concrete. I am nothing like an expert in the field but I know more than the average bear on the subject. As far as MMLR goes I am a Noob and will gladly defer judgement on this particular subject until I can get some hands on experience.

Anyone tried using Great Stuff foam and some of the LR cement mixed products to make backdrops? IR might be the way to go for your floating MMLR idea.

Again FWIW

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10455684#post10455684 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by badfish03
... probably with some colorant in it (koolaid comes to mind)

To save you time and frustration, I will tell you what I've learned about coloring DIY rock...

Kool-aid just doesn't work - purple, green and pink all come out looking sort of dull grey, and that is in white cement, using way more then you would think would be needed.

Rit-Dye works slightly better then the Kool-aid, but again, several packages were needed to even start getting a good color.

Plaid "Make-It Mosaics" Colorant has been the best I have worked with, but a lot is needed to get strong colors. It is classified as "Non-toxic". I think something like one 1oz bottle per 30lbs of finished rock weight is what it took to get what I wanted.

And finally, after all my efforts to get good color, I find that as the cure and kure complete, and carbonation starts to occur, the colors are washed out and faded to a pale semblance of the original dry rocks color, and while wetting the rock darkens the color, it is still a pale pastel shade. Simply put, not worth the effort or money.

What I find does work well, is to make what amounts to cement paste, colored darker than what you want, "painted" onto the rock after salt release if you used salt, if not, about a week into curing/kuring, and allow the rock to dry first. I mix a few tablespoons of cement with the Plaid Colorant, and add water until it is a consistency close to thick latex paint. Paint it on, give it a week or so to cure, and finish the rock how you planned.

HTH
:)

And I am considering your proposed idea's for a "sauna" effect - I felt they deserved a better then "off the cuff" answer.

They are each good idea's, and I see no flaw in them, except for the smoker idea - way too expensive and I think the BBQ idea is something that is never going to work as well as the oven in terms of keeping moisture in. I'd prefer electric elements to propane for safety issues.

The fryer/can is a very interesting idea with a lot of merit, esp for others who want to do quick cured rock, and really, almost everyone should know someone they could possibly borrow a fry from. My concern would be the weight of the rock on top of the fryer, and any possible damage that might occur to the fryer by being used this way (for those who think they can borrow - would suck to have to replace it because it got messed up.)

The brick/block kiln is a more labor intensive version of what I had outlined, where you replaced the barrel with bricks/blocks - I think cutting a door and adding a pair of hinges and adding a strip of stove sealing wick will be simpler and less, well, labor intensive, lol. I'm a lazy beast, and a cutting torch is easier to lift then cement blocks. Not to mention trying to seal that block kiln - I'd think you'd need to build it right (mortar, etc) to prevent all the steam from getting loose.

All in all, for what I want to do, I still think the barrel sauna is the best bet so far. Elements can be gotten in electric hot plates or burners, cheap, at garage sales, shouldn't take more then half an hour or so to cut the door and seal the seams, and barrels can be gotten free if you know where to look.

I do think the fryer idea is a good one for the rest of the community that is just looking to do a few batches for personal use.
So who has a fryer?
:D

[customcolor]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10455684#post10455684 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by badfish03
Anyone tried using Great Stuff foam and some of the LR cement mixed products to make backdrops? IR might be the way to go for your floating MMLR idea.

Again FWIW kinda like this? if so check out how i did it in my build form. click my red house i got some good close ups too.<BR>
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/141531rockandfoaminwater.jpg

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10455684#post10455684 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by badfish03
Mr. Wilson I agree with you whole-heartedly I was just giving a few suggestions to IR :D

Personally when I do start making some MMLR I will use a faster setting cement mix probably with some colorant in it (koolaid comes to mind) and let it cure under clear 8-mil poly sheeting for a couple weeks adding misted water as needed then do the water bath trick till the PH goes down. This will yield a stronger mix than messing around adding calcium or baking the rock Calcium is great if you are trying to get a project done and strength isn't the big issue, add to much and your concrete falls apart much quicker. Baking also weakens concrete unless the mix is designed for it as the concrete pipe example is.
Just so you know I have more than 25 years experience dealing with concrete and mixes, most of it in heavy highway type construction and most of that time forming, pouring, finishing and curing the concrete. I have spent the last 5 years dealing with mix designs and testing of concrete. I am nothing like an expert in the field but I know more than the average bear on the subject. As far as MMLR goes I am a Noob and will gladly defer judgement on this particular subject until I can get some hands on experience.

Anyone tried using Great Stuff foam and some of the LR cement mixed products to make backdrops? IR might be the way to go for your floating MMLR idea.

Again FWIW

Don't worry, I wasn't pointing a finger at you, or anyone else in particular. You made some good suggestions.

Everyone loves a challenge. I had my own harebrained suggestion of using a metal shed and a propane burner to generate heat, Co2, and moisture. Needless to say, this contraption would cost more than live rock and take up enough space to store skids of rock.

As far as experience goes, I haven't made a single rock either. I'm following this thread to learn from others mistakes. :)

Keep those ideas coming.

[Insane Reefer]

Oh, that looks very cool :D
It looks whiter than the stuff I've seen, or is that an illusion?

OT: Have you heard? Dark Crystal 2...

[mr.wilson]

This guy used a colourant.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=618586&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=5221156#post5221156 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dugg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46077100_0416.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/dugg/100_1151.jpg
I sprayed it down with a water and RIT dye mixture for the finall dry time. The rocks were splattered with liquid RIT dye when they were made.

Interesting application - I'll admit I would have never thought of that. I can't see that the dye made much difference but it is hard to tell. The later pictures showing nice purple were taken almost a year after the tank was cast - the images are too small to tell if it is coralline or dyed rock.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9194274#post9194274 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dugg
I wouldn't use the dye if doing it again. It took forever to bleed out, and almost none stayed in the cement.

Thanks for the link, Mr Wilson :)
Just because this didn't work doesn't mean that other applications (possibly dry dye?) won't...

[mr.wilson]

My local Home Depot sells concrete colorant, but only in a terra cotta colour.

I've seen grey, black and blue cement colorant at cement product stores.

Quikrete has red colorant on this product list.

http://www.dpwigley.com/Quikrete%20Product%20List_1.html

Walt Smith uses a similar dye with his man-made maricultured rock.

http://www.pacificaquafarms.com/cultured.htm

[Insane Reefer]

yeah - too bad Duggs splash technique didn't work out, he posted that later in the thread - but I've a link in my "Super Long Post" for an eBay dealer who sells dry colorants for cement in a lot of colors. I'm wondering if using colorant meant for cement, and using it dry, sprinkled on, might work?

The local scene for color is about the same as your's from what I've been able to find in colors :(

[mr.wilson]

You could always use red aragonite. They sell it as kids play sand at my local Home depot.

They also have yellow and blue etc. if you want tie-dye rock. I know... I shouldn't encourage you I.R. :)

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10457142#post10457142 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
You could always use red aragonite. They sell it as kids play sand at my local Home depot.

They also have yellow and blue etc. if you want tie-dye rock. I know... I shouldn't encourage you I.R. :)
:jester:

I do love a good tie-dye, lol :)

Anyway, we have no aragonite except at the LFS, not in red, not in yellow, and certainly not in blue...
:hmm2:
My local Home Despot sucks...
:mad2:

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10457095#post10457095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
yeah - too bad Duggs splash technique didn't work out, he posted that later in the thread - but I've a link in my "Super Long Post" for an eBay dealer who sells dry colorants for cement in a lot of colors. I'm wondering if using colorant meant for cement, and using it dry, sprinkled on, might work?

The local scene for color is about the same as your's from what I've been able to find in colors :(

You really need to watch out on the actual concrete colorants most of them are pretty nasty metal wise. I have seen a couple companies that are making more enviornmentaly friendly versions but they are surface treatments not to be mixed in the concrete.

[Neptune777]

All,
What is everyone using to mix up their cement mixtures. Any special drill bits out there you have found? I'm looking to get a stainless mixing attachment of some kind.

[badfish03]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10459936#post10459936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
All,
What is everyone using to mix up their cement mixtures. Any special drill bits out there you have found? I'm looking to get a stainless mixing attachment of some kind.

Hope you have a really stout drill for this concrete is gonna be rough on the drill because of how thick you make it. I usually hand mix small loads with a hoe and shovel. I have seen a 5 gallon HDPE mixer you put the mix and water into, cap it and roll it around on the ground for a minute or two then pull the cap and pour. I think that Quickrete made these.

If you do go the drill and paddles type set up most big box stores have the drill bit in the paint section but look for the heavy duty ones (usually galv. steel) made for 5 gallon mixing. They work good for thin grouts but I wouldn't recommend them for a thick mix.

HTH

[sunkool]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10459936#post10459936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
All,
What is everyone using to mix up their cement mixtures. Any special drill bits out there you have found? I'm looking to get a stainless mixing attachment of some kind.

I use this

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z247/sunkool/cement.jpg

With a half inch drill. works great

[Salty Brother]

Ok I have a couple of questions.
First of all what does the pH of the freshwater have to be stable at to know that they are cured?
And second, if I want to seed the rock, do I have to do any water changes?
Thanks,
Patick

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10460970#post10460970 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunkool
I use this

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z247/sunkool/cement.jpg

With a half inch drill. works great



Thanks!

[Rhodophyta]

To color my rocks, I use oak leaves. Put them in the water when you begin to soak the rocks. Random parts of the rock will be stained dark brown and others all shades inbetween. The color is permanent so far. I took a rock out that has been in a freshwater cichlid tank for several years and it still has the oak pigmenting.

[customcolor]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10456716#post10456716 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Oh, that looks very cool :D
It looks whiter than the stuff I've seen, or is that an illusion?

OT: Have you heard? Dark Crystal 2...

i had to cure it in the tank since it stuck to the glass. that was just 3 days after i started adding water. looks better now and it only took 2 weeks of every 3day water change for the ph to drop from high 8 to 7.8. the last test i let it soak for 4 days just to make shure. the pond foam goes from side to side across the overflow. just after i sprayed the foam i but crystal salt on it to try to get the same look and it turned out perty good.

when is dark crystal 2 being made???? i want to know!!

[Salty Brother]

customcolor-
sorry this is really off topic, but first of all were abouts in WI are you? and i need to paint a car becuase of a deer accident i just got into and I was wondering if you could give me some good suggestions on a compressor powered spray gun.
thanks,
oh ya, im still wondering what the pH of the freshwater has to be to know the rocks are cured. thanks,
patrick

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10459585#post10459585 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by badfish03
You really need to watch out on the actual concrete colorants most of them are pretty nasty metal wise. I have seen a couple companies that are making more enviornmentaly friendly versions but they are surface treatments not to be mixed in the concrete.

Agreed - esp. greens and blues, which often use copper compounds. That is why I like the Plaid colors best of what I've used - non-toxic and fairly cheap and are meant for this type of thing.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/green-rock.jpg

This is green rock (dry and wet) I made with Plaid Mosaic Colorant - can you tell? lol
I happened to go by the LFS today, and he still had these two pieces of the colored rock, so I grabbed a picture.
This was a fairly dark green when cast, almost the color of green coralline and used half a bottle to achieve - very little leeched out from the rock. This is the color it finished to.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10462102#post10462102 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Salty Brother
oh ya, im still wondering what the pH of the freshwater has to be to know the rocks are cured. thanks,
patrick

Pat, we generally say that if the pH of the test water reads anything less than 8.6, after a full 3 days of soaking in the same water, you are good to go.

[customcolor]

Salty Brother u got pm
and i live between appleton and green bay just off hy41

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10461812#post10461812 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
To color my rocks, I use oak leaves.

I will attest that this works superbly (walnut outer husks will also work) for getting a nice mottling effect in the buff/sepia tones.

Now if we could only genetically engineer oak tree's to have purple leaves, we would be set for coralline colors :D

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10459936#post10459936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777

What is everyone using to mix up their cement mixtures.

I second the heavy duty duty drill if you go with the mixer thingy.

We have one, and I tried it, but ended up liking mixing with hand tools, like an ice scraper and a hand claw like you find in the garden center, much better. I also don't work in a bucket anymore - I have two rubbermaid bins I use depending on how much I'm making - one is a 38qt and the other is a gift-wrap tote - both of the flexible colored plastic, not the brittle clear stuff.

These work for me :)

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10462263#post10462263 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I will attest that this works superbly (walnut outer husks will also work) for getting a nice mottling effect in the buff/sepia tones.

Now if we could only genetically engineer oak tree's to have purple leaves, we would be set for coralline colors :D

Hehheh!

http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/78739/

I guess I'll have to buy one and plant it. Purple birch should be close enough. I'll let you know in a few years if the purple color transfers. :rollface: :spin1: :fun4:

[Salty Brother]

alright thank you both insane reefer and customcolor

[JackJack7]

cool

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10459936#post10459936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
All,
What is everyone using to mix up their cement mixtures. Any special drill bits out there you have found? I'm looking to get a stainless mixing attachment of some kind.

I use a mortar box and a hoe. There are two and three bag electric mixers. That would actually be handy if you were hosting an aragocrete workshop, but would make too much for one person to use before it started to set.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10462568#post10462568 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
Hehheh!

http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/78739/

I guess I'll have to buy one and plant it. Purple birch should be close enough. I'll let you know in a few years if the purple color transfers. :rollface: :spin1: :fun4:

LOL!
Keep us posted - this fall would have me out picking the leaves off those saplings just to see, lol.

Great site BTW - I like a place that has sound files of how things are pronounced :D

[Insane Reefer]

I haven't forgotten about posting the emails from the guy in England who is director for a cement microanalysis firm - he and I have been sending emails back and forth; him asking questions and me trying to answer them. He thinks he has some idea's that might help us, but is trying to collect as much info about what we can do and use and what we are trying for so he can offer suggestions intelligently.

I think I may have a reef convert - he seems to really be getting into this project :D

He asked me a question that I wasn't positive on the answer for, so am asking hoping someone might have the answer.

What pore size are you thinking of? Very dense concrete will have little porosity that organisms can live in. Imagine that what you want is lots of interconnected pores so the material has a high surface area. Would a pore size of up to 1mm-2mm be OK?


I'm thinking this would be a perfect size, but haven't seen anything "scientific" about the average pore sizes in real LR, so was hoping one of you would know?

[michaelalan]

I think 1-2 mm would be great.

[badfish03]

Okay I think I have read every post on this thread but am not a 100% sure :eek1: its a long mother :) Anyway i did see a few remarks somewhat along these lines but am not sure if anyone has actually tried this or not.

I do not like the idea of adding salt too much so has anyone tried adding sand clods to make caves and such. You could add a coating of white glue to the outside of the sand and let that dry. You could make these in varying shapes before adding the rock mix over them. The glue coat should hold them stable long enough to get initial set on the concrete then would disolve in water to allow the hollow to form.

I would think this would also work for making fairly intricate sand molds to pour the mix in although they would not be as random this way. Anyone tried something similar?

[goldmaniac]

BADFISH,

just try the salt. works great. I don't think i have enough patience to apply a coat of glue to sand.

But I'd be very interested in hear your results if you do try that idea.

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10465641#post10465641 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by badfish03
...has anyone tried adding sand clods to make caves and such. You could add a coating of white glue to the outside of the sand and let that dry.

Not a bad idea - I've done something like that with solar salt cubes:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/125181Cubes2.jpg
It works fairly well for the salt, but it needs like week to dry as the salt plays havoc with the water in the glue.

I think it would be easier to mix the glue into the sand, then shape as needed - get it sort of paste like in consistency and mold to what you want and allow to dry.

I'll give it a try.

[eshook]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10433879#post10433879 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Eshook.
Have you had a chance to pester your kin-folk about cement yet?


Unfortunatly I have not. Sorry Insane! I just got my first tank online and I'm looking at LR options at the moment. We were also just informed that for the next 3 weekends we will be having out of state guests so we are frantically cleaning before they arrive. I will try to email them ASAP though! I'll add it to my todo list.

[thriceanangel]

I hate cleaning before guests come. Makes me feel like a liar. Our house isn't that clean when they're NOT there, why should that change just because they ARE there. I also hate it when we have been cleaning for 3 days, and when the guests just get there, my wife says "Excuse the mess."

!!!!

Sorry I'll return to my seat now.