So I'm thinking of buying parts for a VFD Closed Loop [Archive]

stugray

12/02/2009, 06:23 PM

I use a Reeflo Dart as a closed loop, and I am tiring of buying a new pump every few years so I am thinking of upgrading.

I also use a barracuda as my return pump from the basement so I have a spare laying around at all times.

I saw liveforphysics thread and have always wanted a variable speed CL.

SO.... I am considering replacing the Dart under my display with my spare Barracuda pump head on a 3 phase motor with a variable speed drive.

Here's what I am looking at:

volute & impeller: Free

3Ph Baldor motor new:

Catalog Number: JM2450
Description: .33HP,1725RPM,3PH,60HZ,56J,1712M,TEFC,F1
Ship Weight: 18 lbs.
List Price: $260

VFD:

http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Micro+VFD/L100-007MFU.html

HITACHI L100-007MFU

115VAC, 1Ø IN
1 HP, 230VAC, 3Ø Out
List Price: $199

Total to build barracuda VFD motor:

$260 + $199 = ~$460 -> $500

And a bunch of my labor & DIY scraps for free ;-)

This is compared to just replacing the Dart for ~$305 and doing it again over & over.

At least with the Baldor motor I should be able to replace the bearings when they go bad.

Any comments? Anyone do this before? Luke?

Stu

BigEivlSquid

12/02/2009, 08:25 PM

kcress

12/03/2009, 01:24 AM

Hey stu. I think you can do it for about half that!

I use these all the time:
http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.13/.f

They work great. Use the single phase units. For anything under 1.5HP single phase is the way to go.

I use the voltage doublers quite often and have no complaints. (I do ground them though...) :D

For the motor look around You have to be able to get way below $200 mackerels.

Perhaps Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BALDOR-MOTOR-JM3463-0-75HP-1725-RPM-3PH-60HZ-56J-NIB_W0QQitemZ110386462584QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b38bbf78

or maybe: http://cgi.ebay.com/Baldor-Electric-Pump-Motor-3-4HP-3450-RPM-56J-FR-3PH_W0QQitemZ290342482465QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4399c2b221

I've run the above motor in my tank for 13 years with a VFD. I do only run it as a wave maker though.

On thing you should keep in mind though is energy. Pumps are made to run int a certain speed area. Maximum efficiency is only in one place. If you use a VFD to run the pump elsewhere it will cost you way more than running a 1ph motor/pump in its sweet spot.

stugray

12/03/2009, 08:30 AM

kcress,

Thanks for the tips.

I saw those motors on ebay but they are both 3450 RPM ( even though one SAYS it is 1725 it is not ).

Will these still work? I know I can vary the speed with the VFD over the whole range, but will a 3450 RPM motor be less efficient if it never goes over 1725?

Also, you say you have been running a motor for 13 years... I assume you have had to replace the bearings a few times.

Stu

der_wille_zur_macht

12/03/2009, 09:14 AM

I've thought about this too, but will likely go with in-tank powerheads on my 360 (cheaper, less watts, repositionable without rebuilding the tank, no holes required.)

That said, I'm interested in going along for the ride as a learning process, so I have a few questions:

If you use a VFD to run the pump elsewhere it will cost you way more than running a 1ph motor/pump in its sweet spot.

I'm happy to just believe you on blind faith but it raises an interesting point. In Luke's thread where he was describing his VFD project, he spent a lot of time talking about how "cool and efficient" his pump was running. I suppose you'd have to be specific and careful in the terminology you were using, and maybe I'm just remembering his wording wrong, but he seemed to be happy that using the VFD and running the pump below it's nameplate speed most of the time was "more efficient." (I suppose his comments and yours don't conflict if you take that to mean "LESS POWER" than running the same pump flat out, vs. indicating some function of power consumed per unit of work done.)

Perhaps Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BALDOR-MOTOR-JM3...item19b38bbf78

or maybe: http://cgi.ebay.com/Baldor-Electric-...item4399c2b221

I've run the above motor in my tank for 13 years with a VFD. I do only run it as a wave maker though.

These motors - and indeed it seems most 56J motors I've seen - are higher HP rating than the motors supplied on the pumps most people seem to use for these projects (wet ends from reeflo pumps). I don't know enough about pump design to know if this is "ok" or not. If I take a wet end off a Reeflo Dart (1/6 or 1/4hp motor I think?) and put it on a 3/4hp motor that's otherwise the same (same speed, etc.) what will happen? I realize this is probably an embarrassingly basic question but I can't wrap my head around it. The pump *should* run at the same speed, which makes me assume it would produce the same flow, but will it be able to pump against a higher head pressure? What will power consumption be like?

(I should have paid better attention in fluid dynamics. At the time all I cared about were airplanes though, not pumps. :D )

Now all we need is a cheap source for wet ends, unions, ball valves, and eductors. . .

ReefClownMIA

12/03/2009, 09:46 AM

Hey Stu, didn't luke? liveforphysics(sp?) build a VFD setup fairly cheap .. if I remember correctly he listed up the driver & motors to use as well? I lost all of my bookmarks a while back, I was going to build a VFD for a wave/stream system before I tore down.

stugray

12/03/2009, 10:30 AM

ReefClownMIA,

yes his thread was my inspiration:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1183020

I posted this thread to see if anyone has tried it since then & what to look out for.

Stu

ReefClownMIA

12/03/2009, 10:32 AM

Thats the one - Thanks for digging it up. Is Luke still around?

TYRYFIN

12/03/2009, 11:00 AM

Stu

The two motors that you are looking at (JM3463 and 34K435X662G1 would be fine to run at half speed. The efficiency will drop slightly at half speed (full speed full load eff are approx 73 %). Something you need to be careful though is the JM3463 motor has a 1.5 service factor so it can pull approx 3.8 amps (230 volt output) at SF load. This is important on sizing the VFD in case the pump would pull into the service factor. This is why you size VFD's by current not hp. Depending on the VFD there are usually some built in 10 and 60 second overload capabilites. The 34K435X662G1 only has a 1.15 SF.

Bill

stugray

12/03/2009, 11:34 AM

TYRYFIN,

Thanks

Would this VFD:
http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/it.A/id.193/.f

work well with this pump:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Baldor-Electric-Pump-Motor-3-4HP-3450-RPM-56J-FR-3PH_W0QQitemZ290342482465QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4399c2b221

Stu

TYRYFIN

12/03/2009, 12:05 PM

Stu

The drive looks to have an instant 200% and a 60 sec 150% overload, so this should be good, also the VFD is rated to 1 hp (no current draw listed motor is only .75 hp) However the motor is rated for 208 volts, typically when you put 115 volt single phase voltage into a VFD it will put out 230 volts AC across all 3 legs ( but it could be higher or lower). With this said you will be supplying approx 22 volts more to the motor and this will lead to a higher motor temp. You are already slowing the motor to half speed to get 1750 rpm so the fan is providing less airflow across the motor for cooling. According to NEMA all motors get a 10% operating range in voltage so this should account for some of that excess voltage. As you know the killer of most motors is excessive heat that typically breaksdown the insulation in the motor. With this setup you have heat from operating a motor on a VFD, excess voltage, and slower fan speed all these will shoten the life of the motor. How much I couldn't guess. The setup will work but I would pick the stock JM3463 over the other motor, IMO.

Bill

stugray

12/03/2009, 01:54 PM

TYRYFIN,

I am looking at the manual for the VFD:

http://factorymation.info/acdrives/FM50manual.pdf

Page 39 shows the V/F settings.
It appears that the drive automatically ramps up the voltage from ~10% at 1 Hz to 100% at 60 Hz.

Since I will be running a 3450 motor at half speed ( 1750 ) maximum, it looks like the drive will never reach 100% of the rated output of 230 Volts.

I assume that will be fine.

In liveforphysics thread he used the Yaskawa VFD and he could adjust the output voltage.

I assume the fact that this VFD will run at a reduced voltage is OK.

Stu

kcress

12/03/2009, 02:54 PM

Stu, DWZM; Gratefully TYRYFIN seems to have answered most your questions. Very well I might add. You can take everything he's put up to the bank as far as my full agreement with his responses.

Some specifics:
Also, you say you have been running a motor for 13 years... I assume you have had to replace the bearings a few times.

No sir! Never. Never touched the pump. But like I mentioned this system runs intermittently. Random 1 to 10 minutes. Start, ramp to 70Hz, hold, ramp to zero. (motor 3450) So the motor has not been running full tilt for all those years.

DWZM; Efficiency of a centrifugal pump is all about running the pump at it's BEP. (best efficiency point - referring to its operating curve.) As you linearly reduce the speed of a pump, depending on lots of things, it's operating point moves rapidly "elsewhere". In all cases elsewhere from the BEP is less efficient, and, with pumps these changes can be depressingly fast.

No valuable engineer would ever design a system that required a VFD to run a pump at some sub BEP speed continuously. This would cause a hit to the bottom line by incurring the VFD's 3 or 4% loss penalty followed by running the pump out of its BEP. They would rather get the pump sized correctly to be in BEP land with a stock motor running at across-the-line speed.

If you need varying flow, or need to stop and start the pump frequently, or need to keep a certain flow while the demand or head pressure moves all about, then reach for a VFD.

VFDs have their down sides:
1) They are fierce generators of EMI. Mine could blitz local AM radio and put bars across a TV at 20 paces.
2) They represent a 3~4% energy loss.
3) They cost money.
4) They wear out. (As mine just did! Out lasted by the motor.)
5) Misapplied they can help you to waste lots of energy.
6) They can erode bearings as stu was wondering about.
7) They can damage some motors by breaking down the motor's insulation. (This is a much bigger concern when the wire run to the motor gets larger. It should not be an issue with aquarium projects.)
8) In some cases they can make the motor sing with teeth gritting sounds that make you want to jump out the nearest window.

Lately a rule seems to be materializing that if you need to slow a pump below 85% you should not be running a VFD as it will cost you more than the economics will ever warrant.

Stu I did not check the shaft diameter on those larger motors. Make sure they work for you. Alternatively you can just wait a bit. Something closer may come up on Epay.

stugray

12/03/2009, 05:41 PM

kcress,

"VFDs have their down sides"

So what is your overall recommendation? Upgrade for about the cost of a dart, or buy another dart knowing that I will need to replace it in 2 years?

I plan on running the thing in a ramp up/down mode most of the day with spikes of high flow, and turning way down at night.

Since I will be running a ~3/4 HP motor on a pump head that expects 1/4 HP, I am guessing this thing wil be kind of in Idle mode for most of it's life.

"Stu I did not check the shaft diameter on those larger motors."

I thought the "frame size" covered: the wet end mount points, the Type of attachment of the impeller ( keyed/slotted/threaded ), AND the shaft diameter. Is that not the case?

Also - "6) They can erode bearings as stu was wondering about."

I was only referring to the Reeflo style - they have a seal that wears out over time and leaks water at a very low rate ( UNTIL they wear out ).
This allows salt water to get on the shaft & salt creep to get back to the motor bearings.
I assume that is why my Dart motors wear out in about the same time as the seals.
Once they start leaking they take out the motor bearings & the cheap Dart motors do not have replaceable bearings.

Stu

kcress

12/03/2009, 06:54 PM

kcress,

"VFDs have their down sides"

So what is your overall recommendation? Upgrade for about the cost of a dart, or buy another dart knowing that I will need to replace it in 2 years?

I never really saw what was failing on your Darts...

I plan on running the thing in a ramp up/down mode most of the day with spikes of high flow, and turning way down at night.
Definitely a job for a VFD. Have you considered using a VFD? :lol:

Since I will be running a ~3/4 HP motor on a pump head that expects 1/4 HP, I am guessing this thing wil be kind of in Idle mode for most of it's life.
That's true. The motor is going to run cooler = last longer. Unless the bearings are poisoned by water or you end up with bearing pitting from the VFD. (Which I think is a very low probability in this case.)

I thought the "frame size" covered: the wet end mount points, the Type of attachment of the impeller ( keyed/slotted/threaded ), AND the shaft diameter. Is that not the case?
Oh yes, you're correct!

Also - "6) They can erode bearings as stu was wondering about."

I was only referring to the Reeflo style - they have a seal that wears out over time and leaks water at a very low rate ( UNTIL they wear out ).
This allows salt water to get on the shaft & salt creep to get back to the motor bearings.
I assume that is why my Dart motors wear out in about the same time as the seals.
Once they start leaking they take out the motor bearings & the cheap Dart motors do not have replaceable bearings.

Stu
That's too bad... Now I see what's failing. Sounds like a slinger might help. A metal disk that is between the pump and the motor on the shaft. Any water running down the shaft towards the motor can't just capillary or gravity its way to the bearings, instead it gets wrung off at the slinger. You could even use a rubber or leather washer to do this.

Sounds like you should give this whole thing a shot. We'll follow along.

BeanAnimal

12/03/2009, 06:59 PM

If you can get a 220V circuit run you can use this drive instead http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Variable+Torque+VFD/X200-002NFU.html?osCsid=a39ae02e0e8520af5961fef510c3e74d
(http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Variable+Torque+VFD/X200-002NFU.html?osCsid=a39ae02e0e8520af5961fef510c3e74d)

It will use less power than a 115V drive having to boost the power to a 230V motor

That is not realy the case at all... Watts are Watts (lets not get into real vs reactive power here) and the power consumption differences between the components of the two drives is going to be a wash. With the current levels and wire lengths involved, there is no difference between 120V and 240V motor power consumption in a residential setting.

TYRYFIN

12/03/2009, 09:38 PM

The Baldor motors on the Barracuda are in a 56J NEMA frame, the motors on Ebay are also a 56J frame, so they should mount up exactly the same. The nice thing about the 2 motors on Ebay is they are a Baldor industrial line motor. The motors on the Barracuda are what we consider a commercial motor. They are both good motors but the industrial line has more iron and copper in them and are more rugged, thus they dissapte heat better.

If you run the motors on the VFD in a Volts/Hz mode and vary the operating range from say 10 to 30 hz (350 to 1750 rpm's) you should not have any heat related issues, as you are using a 3/4 hp motor in place of a 1/4. This upsizing will also give you more than enough torque to make up for the loss that you got by going to a 2 pole motor from a 4 pole motor.

Plan>B

12/03/2009, 10:49 PM

I am really interested in this. I install these all the time (doing a 50hp next week), but never had the need to fully understand them. I'm just a dumb electrician. I had thought about the possibilities of adding one on my build so really looking forward to some results Stu. If you do start a build please post link here.

I wish liveforphysics was still active... he's just down the road. Now to read his thread.

stugray

12/03/2009, 11:50 PM

So I just ordered the following:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&item=290342482465&view=all&tid=384090193019

And:

TECO FM50 AC Drive, 1 HP - http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.13/.f

I just replaced the seals on two barracudas so I'll just move the wet head to the new motor & see what happens.

I'll just have to neck down the intake since the Dart was a 2" & the barracuda is a 1-1/2", but I'll more than make up for it with the extra 1/2 HP ;-)

Stu

Plan>B

12/04/2009, 12:00 AM

So I just ordered the following:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&item=290342482465&view=all&tid=384090193019

Stu

Hey Stu... can you please resend the link... that is the order link :)

kcress

12/04/2009, 04:02 AM

Stu don't forget a slinger on your rebuild.

stugray

12/04/2009, 08:25 AM

"Hey Stu... can you please resend the link... that is the order link"

I guess go to the ebay main page & enter the item #:

290342482465

Stu

der_wille_zur_macht

12/04/2009, 10:23 AM

More basic questions from the peanut gallery. :D

I plan on running the thing in a ramp up/down mode most of the day with spikes of high flow, and turning way down at night.

Definitely a job for a VFD. Have you considered using a VFD? :lol:

Since no one took up my comment above about controllable powerheads, I'll repeat it here - given Stu's requirements, what would make someone want a closed loop with a VFD-driven pump, vs. a few controllable Tunze Streams? The Streams would be repositionable, more efficient (I'm assuming - see below), and cheaper (if you were starting from scratch. Given that Stu has the wet end and plumbing already, different story for him.)

Since I will be running a ~3/4 HP motor on a pump head that expects 1/4 HP, I am guessing this thing wil be kind of in Idle mode for most of it's life.

This is another area where I'm lost. If we put a 3/4 hp, 3450rpm motor on a wet end that usually has a 1/4hp 1725rpm motor on it, what happens? I realize this is an open ended question, but how would you decide the best operational habits for a mismatch like that?

Do you try to plan based on keeping the motor at 1750rpm as a max? Or do you try to plan for keeping it at 1/4hp max? Or do you throw the original design out the window and run it above it's regular operating parameters? If so, what happens?

Another line of thought. Efficiency. Again, comparing to in-tank powerheads. Controllable Koralia 8's are 3500gph and only 22w. I'm sure the 3500gph number is inflated, but still - two or three of those costs around the same as this VFD project, and is a lot of controllable flow for well under 100w.

If you were to use a too-big (3/4hp) motor on a reeflo wet end and ran it around the reeflo's original specs (in terms of rpm?) could you determine ahead of time the power consumption?

the cheap Dart motors do not have replaceable bearings.

Is there reliable information anywhere on which Reeflo pumps have which motors (at least in terms of hp, rpm, frame size?) Their website is so sloppy I'm fearful of trusting anything on it. Also, has anyone bought a bare wet end from them, or is everyone buying a complete pump and taking it apart? (I guess if you went that way you could ebay the original motor to help with costs.)

Even if I never do a VFD project I was planning on using a Dart for a return pump. But if they come with junky motors, I'm wondering if I'd be better off with a snapper, or dart gold, or something else.

TYRYFIN

12/04/2009, 12:53 PM

To try and answer your question. Pumps and fans are Variable Torque loads, the torque required at low speed is very low, but the torque required at high speed is very high. The required torque is a function of the spped squared and the horsepower is a function of the speed cubed. This is what allows the pump to start with a load already applied to it (head pressure) without overheating the motor. As the motor comes up to speed more torque and Hp is needed. The amount of torque required by the pump is a function of size and pitch of the vanes on the pump wheel.

So in Stu's case the wheel is not changing, the head pressue is not changing, only the size of the motor is and its base speed The motor will have more capacity to do the work but the amount of work needed is not changing. You will have a little more current draw but that is a function of the inertia need to start the larger rotor in the motor.

Stu will have to run the motor at 1750 rpms to match the performance of the wheel in the pump. If he overspeeds the pump he will increase both the flow and the head pressure, but the horsepower needed will increase by a function of the speed cubed. This will increase current draw, efficiency will drop, and the motor will heat up.

Bill

der_wille_zur_macht

12/04/2009, 01:03 PM

The required torque is a function of the spped squared and the horsepower is a function of the speed cubed.

So in this case, the 3/4 hp motor being spun at half speed will basically have the same end result (roughly, in terms of power consumption and water moved) as the original motor? If you spun the wet end faster than it's original 1725rpm speed, I'd imagine you'd get more power draw and more water moved than the original pump, but perhaps not as efficient since the wet end was only designed for 1725rpm?

kcress and/or stu (or anyone else that's doing or has done this) - without turning this in to a closed loop vs. powerhead debate, can you explain your criteria in going with a VFD closed loop instead of controllable powerheads? (As I've alluded above, I'd love to try this but I need someone to talk me in to it first, since powerheads seem easier/cheaper.)

stugray

12/04/2009, 01:30 PM

"can you explain your criteria in going with a VFD closed loop instead of controllable powerheads? "

1 - I dont like power heads and I have ONE tiny one in my entire system and that is just to keep the water from stagnating in my Fuge.

2 - I already have the entire CL system installed & I love it. The display has 6 Loc-line nozzles from the CL on a manifold & 2 more from the sump return.

3 - This is STILL cheaper than just two korallia nanos with controller & I wont need to buy anything else.

4 - If I hook the VFD up to a more advanced controller ( arduino perhaps ) I can program ANY profile that I want. I can have the system barely moving water at night, tune it to get more intense during the day on a wave type of system, and BLAST the heck out of things when I want to simulate a hurricane.

Looks like when I build my LED & Fan controller & will include a wave function ( 0-10 Volt arbitrary waveform generator ).

Stu

der_wille_zur_macht

12/04/2009, 02:52 PM

will include a wave function ( 0-10 Volt arbitrary waveform generator ).

That's in my plans, too. Having one controller do LED *and* controllable water movement has some interesting possibilities for synching the two, beyond just peaceful nights. I've got a prototype working (it just dims an LED to model the pump, not actually driving a pump yet) with a "storm mode" that, every few days, randomly dims the lights to simulate cloud cover and ramps the pump to a more fierce rate. Now all I need is an ATO that simulates rainfall. :D

And sorry if I'm hijacking your thread, just trying to wrap my head around this in case I do it, too.

kcress

12/04/2009, 03:51 PM

No question, power heads can be more efficient at moving water in a tank. But they are also much more problematic. Sucking up fish, getting growths on them, mounting issues, vibration, coraline, and they are UG LEE!

Like everything there are trade offs. Efficiency can be traded off for aesthetics in some cases.

stugray

12/05/2009, 10:33 AM

Here are some pics of the two pumps to give an idea of the size difference ( these are the old ones, I dont have the new 3ph motor yet ):

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/dart_barr_side_by_side-3000.jpg

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/dart_barr_front_compare-3000.jpg

And a pic of the shaft of the dart. It's no wonder the bearings/bushings wear out.

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/Dart_shaft-3000.jpg

The barracuda DOES have a slinger but this Dart does not.

I'm pretty sure I have seen a Dart with the slinger, but apparently not this one.

Stu

stugray

12/05/2009, 11:57 AM

Slightly off topic but here is a way to control 0-10V LED dimming AND the speed of the VFD I chose:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/4398

It is a Serial addressable Digital Potentiometer.
For those who just said "Huh?" - It is a variable resistor that you can "Turn" from a distance using a serial interface.

If you hook it to a computer or Micro-controller ( like the Arduino ) then you can control the brightness of LEDs using the ELN-60-48D or the speed of a pump using the VFD that I chose.
Both use a 0-10VDC input to control brightness or speed.
If you just hook this to a 10VDC supply, you can move the "wiper" up & down with serial commands.
This give an output of 0-10VDC.

It is also Non-volatile - It remembers where you set it last if the power goes out.

This unit has two digi-pots in one part. You can get them with up to 6 from Dallas.

Stu

kcress

12/05/2009, 01:51 PM

Yeah.. Good graphic on how a slinger would protect the motor!

uncleof6

12/05/2009, 04:05 PM

stugray

12/05/2009, 04:50 PM

Uncle - that looks like the same motor as my Orca, so I assume that is a Dart Gold?

What does that pump say for frame size?

I have contacted Hubbel, A.O. Smith, & Baldor & none of them will say what motor replaces those..... Its a conspiracy! ;-)

That's why I went this route. I would have been happy finding a sub-$100 motor replacement instead of this upgrade. Now I will have a serviceable motor.

I havent had ANY problems with my Orca yet, but its only been running about 1.5 yrs.

Stu

uncleof6

12/05/2009, 06:47 PM

stugray

12/05/2009, 06:51 PM

kcress

12/05/2009, 07:20 PM

No sleeve bearings only means "sleeve bearings". They are easily replaced. You have to press them out and new back in. Sleeve bearing can be more robust than ball bearings but probably are less efficient.

TYRYFIN

12/05/2009, 07:39 PM

The motors on the Barracuda and Hammerhead pumps which are Baldor motors them are proprieatary, the motors are still active and are only available thru the OEM. The same is true of all Baldor motors on all these pumps. Baldor only sells through OEM's and distributors, so if you call Baldor they should tell you to contact the OEM if they are proprietary or if they are stock or custom to contact a distributor. I can promise this to you as I work for Baldor.

If you have a motor that has a Z on the frame size 99% of the time it is a custom motor and will cost you more than a stock motor

They is no way a motor of this size has a sleeve earing on it, sleeve bearings are typicaly on motors of several hundred horsepower.

I checked all these motors and they have replaceable ball bearings
Bill

uncleof6

12/05/2009, 07:51 PM

"Just a standard dart... frame: 42YZ"

Sorry NOT just a "standard Dart" - if you were told that then you got a deal!

The "standard Dart" comes with a A.O. Smith or a Hubbell motor.

The Orcas & Dart Gold come with the Baldor motors.

If I could have found that replacement motor for $68 then I might not have done this upgrade.

I assume that "Sleeve Bearings" means - un-replaceable Bushings?

Stu

Have installed several darts, all with A.O. Smith motors, Custom Aquatic was running a special on Darts, so picked up three, couple bones a piece, and that is what I got. (All three)

kcress

12/06/2009, 12:19 AM

TYRYFIN; Thanks for that Baldor info I didn't know that.

stugray

12/06/2009, 03:10 PM

TYRYFIN,

"I checked all these motors and they have replaceable ball bearings"

I agree, the Baldors on my barracuda & Orca should be easy to refurbish.

The problem I was having is the "standard" darts have hubbell or A.O. Smith motors and Reflo told me that the bearings cannot be replaced.

Stu

stugray

12/07/2009, 02:03 PM

So I have two reeflo barracudas to chose from but they have different impellers.

I assume this is the old style:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/DSC02221-3000.jpg

While this is the newer style:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/IMG_4570-3000.jpg

Which one should I use for the CL?

I am also still looking to find someone that has done this before.
I am pretty sure I will be able to run it in short bursts well above the original speed,
but I dont want to experiment & blow the volute off of it or shoot fish out of my tank.

Anyone? Luke?

Stu

kcress

12/07/2009, 02:52 PM

It will come down to pressure in your situation. The volute has stresses trying to explode it that are a function of the pressure. If you stay below that ultimate pressure you can run faster.

A whole lot of pumps run at 3450 not 1725, so up to that probably isn't a problem. Everything else equal that would take 4 times the original hp. Which you will have available with that over size motor. I will however hazard a guess that that would not be something you want to do. My 1/3hp pump can churn my 150g into a homogenized soup in moments. Remember Luke discovered that too and never runs/ran above about %40 if I remember correctly.

A very big problem with those big flows is screening and protection of the suction inlet.

stugray

12/08/2009, 10:04 PM

Ok, so I got the new 3 phase motor today!

The Barracuda Volute bolted right to the motor no problem.
This has a new seal in it already.

Here are pics!

Here is a pic of the two motors. The one in the back is the stock barracuda, the one in front is the 3/4 Hp 3Phase motor. No difference other than the nameplate and the giant bulge of the starting Cap on the 1 phase motor.

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/new_3Ph_motor_compared_to_barracuda.jpg

Here's a pic of the impeller & volute removed:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/Barracuda_impeller_off_moving_to_ne.jpg

And here is one of the wet end installed on the new motor:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/barracuda_wet_head_on_new_motor-300.jpg

Piece of cake so far!

And Yes, I moved the Slinger to the new pump shaft.

I get the VFD tomorrow.

One bummer was that this pump didnt come with a welded mount like the Reeflo. I'll just have to make my own - extra hour of DIY - Darn!
I am guessing - One piece of ply, some old mousepads, and some plumbers tape :lol:

Stu

kcress

12/09/2009, 01:06 AM

That looks great!

Good example of size reduction because of the single to three phase difference. Here a 3/4hp 3phase is about the same as a 1ph 1/3hp.

der_wille_zur_macht

12/09/2009, 12:00 PM

Exciting!

Even though I'm *still* leaning towards powerheads, this project fascinates me, and I can't wait to hear how it works on your tank.

stugray

12/09/2009, 10:32 PM

Well, that was difficult:

5 connections & controlled speed with a push of a button.

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/3Ph_with_VFD-3000.jpg

Now I have to figure out the multi-function pins & the internal settings.
Once I set that up right, the pump can ramp up & down without any controller.

Stu

kcress

12/10/2009, 12:02 AM

Yeah! Hope you have a good magnifying glass to read that paper challenged manual with. :D

stugray

12/10/2009, 12:13 PM

kcress,

Since you have some experience with this thing and the manual is awful, could you help me set it up?

I want the motor to just ramp up & down from one speed to another with ( if possible ) a dwell time at each setpoint.

I get that I need to use the multi-function inputs & outputs but I cant make much sense of the manual.

For instance look at the logic table on page 44 Both of the columns in the table show SP1 terminal. I assume the second column is SP2?

This should be easy if I just experiment, but I didnt think first when I put the wet head on. If I want to play very much with the pump dry, I'll need to remove the impeller as I dont want to damage the bearing.

Stu

SeaWeed89

12/10/2009, 01:24 PM

Hey stu
is that just a single 110v line running into it the VFD?
and how many amps does that motor draw on each phase?
i like your setup so far can't wait to see the arduino hooked up to it keep up the good work.

BeanAnimal

12/10/2009, 03:23 PM

Yes, the drive is 120V single phase input. The drive converts the single phase into 3-phase.

kcress

12/10/2009, 05:09 PM

Stu; I don't believe you can have it do that without external help.
I'd just use the forward/stop function and feed an analog signal to the drive in whatever profile I needed. That's what my system has done for 13 years.

You can also use forward/stop and the two speed inputs to digitally select the two different speeds you want to cycle between. Then you can have the drive ramp between those speeds, not just hopping between them.

Your switchover between the two and any desired dwell would need to be provided by you.

One slight help is that the programmable output can be set to say "I'm at speed" which you might be able to use to pace the external controller, though a straight electronic timer and dead reckoning would probably make more adjust-ability sense.

Since you should have newer firmware you can set the reset(RST) input to actually be SP2. Yes the right table column should be "SP2".

SeaWeed89; Yes, that is a single phase to three phase, with voltage doubling VFD. For puny motor sizes it will likely become the only option in the future.

And, NO, Stu cannot measure the current draw on each motor phase as that waveform is hella-complex and no standard meter is capable of rendering anything logical from it. Furthermore since he is running that motor at 1/2 it's rated RPM and under loaded even at that, the numbers will be crazy even if you had the specialized metering equipment. Better would be to just measure the supply side with a wattmeter as that is the total energy being drawn.

I'd guess the draw will be about 300W at 1725 with full flow.

BeanAnimal

12/10/2009, 05:34 PM

I did not look at the controller datasheet... but in many cases, a logical output can be wired back to a logical input to form a feedback loop.

In any case, it would be easier to just build a simple adjustable bi-stable 555 timer circuit with 2 transistors at the output to feed states to the inputs. With just a but more complexity, a simle micro could be used to add almost infinite porgram options.

stugray

12/10/2009, 06:02 PM

kcress,

"I don't believe you can have it do that without external help."

When tyring to look at the manual, I see "hints" that it can do this with the multi-function inputs & outputs, but it is some of the worst documentation I have ever seen.

BTW - I compared the online manual to the micro one they sent, and there ARE differences. I will try to see if they made it any more understandable in whichever is the latest.

Also - "NO, Stu cannot measure the current draw on each motor phase as that waveform is hella-complex"

How about a TCP202 current probe and oscope ;-)..... Maybe later, but I CAN get the traces and was actually interested since I have been wanting to build a VFD like the "Korallia controller" thread around here somewhere.

Bean,

"but in many cases, a logical output can be wired back to a logical input"

That's what I'm seeing but I will have to experiment to figure it out.... guess the impeller has to come off unless I hook it up first & play later.

On ANOTHER note ( Slightly OT - non-geeky types DONT READ ): while playing with this this I was wondering.....WHAT if you took a VFD, wired it to a 208 step-down transformer to 28V ( you can get these Cheap as they are used for door bells & furnaces )

Now put two Korallia controllable power heads in series in this circuit.
You now have a Korallia controller for ~$120 instead of almost $300.
You just cant control the two pumps independently ( they will both run at the same speed).
BUT you could do up to 6 power heads with one 3 phase VFD & 3 transformers.

Stu

kcress

12/10/2009, 08:09 PM

Ah... Just go back to the same place and get a timer:
http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.100/.f

Get it working with switches in your hand before you do anything else so you know exactly what you need.

You should just plumb that bad boy into either your tank or a drilled FGP(Five Gallon Pail). Don't bother pulling it apart again. You know it will work, you just need to control it the way you want it. You will never know what you want until you see it in situ working with switches in your paws.

Yes, that probe would actually probably measure the instantaneous current but unless you have some crazy scope settings it won't tell you the RMS current.

Since that is what's called a "scalar drive" you could do what you are suggesting with a few caveats.

You absolutely should do it symmetrically. Do not attempt one channel.

The 1ph motors you want to run had better not need any of the typical starting functions.

Yes, the TECO printed manual is so small I can't read any of it. It will also lack the latest updates so definitely use the online one.

der_wille_zur_macht

12/15/2009, 10:21 AM

Time for more stupid questions from me.

Why do we use AC motors for these applications - strictly because they're more common?

What about something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/PACIFIC-SCIENTIFIC-EP3620-3631-7-1-56J-1-2-HP-MOTOR_W0QQitemZ190356867646QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c52274a3e

56J, 1/2HP, 24VDC. You could DIY a driver for it more cheaply than a VFD, but you'd need a rather beefy AC/DC power supply to run it.

As an added bonus, you could run it on a battery backup without an inverter.

Thoughts anyone?

der_wille_zur_macht

12/15/2009, 10:36 AM

And since I dug the thread back up, something else I'm still not grasping. I think I already asked this but it still doesn't make sense.

Forgive me if I'm not asking this question in the right terms, but let's say I want X amount of pumping power. Let's say X is what stu is going to get from his barracuda wet end on the 3450rpm 3/4hp motor run at half speed (to duplicate the original 1725 rpm motor.)

Am I better off getting the same, 3450rpm 3/4hp motor and running it half speed, or should I get a 1/3 or 1/2hp, 1725rpm motor (whichever would be more equivalent to the 3/4hp motor run at half speed) and essentially run it at full power?

So, basically a Baldor JM3463 (Stu's motor, I think - 3450rpm, 3/4hp, TEFC) or a Baldor JM3458 (1750rpm, 1/3hp, TEFC)?

Is there an advantage to using the larger motor at a lower-than-rated output? Based on comments earlier in the thread about efficiency it would seem that you'd be better off with the smaller motor if you didn't need the extra power. But then based on other comments, it seemed like the larger motor would be "happier" (cooler, last longer).

stugray

12/15/2009, 10:47 AM

That motor would work for this application.

Being a 1/2 HP means it is about 375 watts, so a 24VDC supply could pull up to ~15 amps full load.

For a CL application, you could run it at 1/2 speed and less than a third of that power.
It might even work just fine at 12VDC.

One thing that concerns me is the name plate says:" Duty = 1 hr ".

I dont know if it is designed to run continuously.

BTW - the CL goes online tonight!

kcress, "Ah... Just go back to the same place and get a timer:"

Just so happens that less than 5 feet from this CL is my Square-D PLC that controls my RO/DI storage tank. 3 wires, 10 minutes of programming and I have a wave timer.
I will probably just use an AC wall timer for the PLC to use as a day night timer.
If I remember correctly the inputs to the PLC can take 110VAC as an input signal.
I'll have to see.

I can make it ramp up & down all day & drop to a constant slower speed at night.

Stu

der_wille_zur_macht

12/15/2009, 11:51 AM

One thing that concerns me is the name plate says:" Duty = 1 hr ".

I dont know if it is designed to run continuously.

That worried me, too. VS. the Baldor motors being rated for continuous up to 40C ambient, if I'm reading the nameplate correctly.

I've never seen a DC 56J motor before I saw that one just now on eBay, so I suppose I've answered my own question - they're just not common enough.

TYRYFIN

12/15/2009, 12:38 PM

The best motor to use would be a 1750 .33 hp 3 phase motor to replace the 1750 .33 single phase motor. You are replacing apples to apples. If you are replacing a 1750 rpm motor with a 3450 rpm motor you will need to go up 1 hp range to get the same torque at rated speed.
As for using a DC motor to operate the pump, this would be fine as long as it has a continous duty. If the motor has a duty cycle, lets say 1 hour you can only operate for approximately 1 hour before it starts to heat up. If you continue to run it, it will heat up and either shutdown on thermal protection if it has it or you will burn it up. Baldor at times has taken a contionous duty motor and instead of designing a new motor will just change the nameplate for the customer to show a duty cycle. So in this case it would be fine to operate the motor continously, but you would have to know the data on the motors windings.
The main issue with using DC motors is intial cost. A typical DC motor when compared to the same hp 3 phase AC motor is generally at least 2X the cost. With that said the DC controller is typically half the cost of an AC VFD. Since in most cases a motor will typically go out before the controller does, it is generally cost effective to go the AC route. When going from a DC to AC motor you have to generally upsize the motor 1 hp range to get the same torque at the same operating speed.

Hope this helps

der_wille_zur_macht

12/15/2009, 12:56 PM

Helps a ton, thanks.

I just emailed Reeflo to see if they sell bare wet ends. It would be a pain to buy a complete pump just for the wet end.

kcress

12/15/2009, 02:17 PM

Keep in mind, my efficiency freak friend, that DC motors are substantially less efficient than AC motors.

stu; !! Yes the PLC - that's seriously The Ticket.

der_wille_zur_macht

12/15/2009, 02:36 PM

Keep in mind, my efficiency freak friend, that DC motors are substantially less efficient than AC motors.

I was just reading about that. Scratch the DC motor.

FWIW, I got a response back from Reeflo in a matter of minutes. They will sell a bare wet end for their "commercial power series" pumps for $119, or with a 1.5hp (yikes!!!!!) 3-phase motor for only $369. He said if I ran it at a low enough speed it would behave like a Barracuda. (I guess that's sorta like telling someone they can put a supercharged V8 on their pushmower and then just run it at idle.) It's rated for 9200 gph and 69 feet of head at full speed. :lol: Might be a tiny bit too much pump for my 360g tank. :lol:

I think I may be better off getting the bare wet end and putting a smaller motor on it. Or buying a standard Barracuda or similar pump and selling the stock 1-phase motor. I'm going to email the guy back and see what he thinks that wet end would do on a 1/3 or 1/2 hp motor.

der_wille_zur_macht

12/15/2009, 03:26 PM

Well, I asked Reeflo what would be the best way to duplicate the watt draw and performance of a Barracuda or Hammerhead, using a 3-phase motor, and he responded (this time from a blackberry!) that the commercial power series wet end he had previously mentioned ($119) would work fine on "any 56J motor." I'm taking that to include a 1/3hp 1725rpm motor to basically create a three-phase Hammerhead.

stugray

12/15/2009, 04:13 PM

"to basically create a three-phase Hammerhead"

Ummm.... Yeah since that's exactly what I did & it works just fine so far.
Is there a difference between the "commercial power series" and the wet end from a barracuda?

Mines 3/4 hp but I have the VFD Max freq. set at 30 Hz so it will only reach the original GPH rating ( until I experiment )

It gets wet in about 2 hours. I suppose I should put up some sort of barrier between the pump & my MH ballasts :-0....... That would sure be a mess if I blew one of the pipes loose...

BTW - that $369 probably didnt include the VFD so add another $120.

Stu

der_wille_zur_macht

12/15/2009, 04:34 PM

"to basically create a three-phase Hammerhead"

Ummm.... Yeah since that's exactly what I did & it works just fine so far.

Yep, and now we've got confirmation from the vendor. :)

Is there a difference between the "commercial power series" and the wet end from a barracuda?

That's my next question. I get the feeling that Reeflo use the same (or very similar) wet ends on many of their pumps, just changing the motor for specific results.

Mines 3/4 hp but I have the VFD Max freq. set at 30 Hz so it will only reach the original GPH rating ( until I experiment )

It gets wet in about 2 hours. I suppose I should put up some sort of barrier between the pump & my MH ballasts :-0....... That would sure be a mess if I blew one of the pipes loose...

I'm probably 6 months from having water in my tank, so I'll be eagerly awaiting your results.

BTW - that $369 probably didnt include the VFD so add another $120.

It didn't, but that price was for a 1.5 hp motor anyways. I'd probably look for something much smaller. I should be able to use their $119 wet end and ~$150 - $200 for an eBay motor to have a complete pump at a lower price anyways. Plus $120 for the VFD, and I'm budgeting $100 for plumbing since I'm starting from scratch (unions, bulkheads, strainers, eductors. . . it adds up. . . )

kcress

12/15/2009, 04:51 PM

Oh boy wetness!!

Yeah you should shield things as a misadjusted VFD in your case, with that big motor, could heave every gallon you've got out on the floor during the flinch.

Zur; Start watching ebay. You should be able to nail down a small 3ph within 6mo at a considerable savings.

stugray

12/15/2009, 08:45 PM

OK,

It is working better than expected!

Here is a pic of the old Dart in the system:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/Old_dart_setup-3000.jpg

Here is a closeup pic of the Dart Motor shaft when pulled out of the setup:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/Dart_corrosion-3000.jpg

Here is a pic of the new 3 Phase Motor sitting under the tank:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/3Ph_after_install-3000.jpg

( DONT give me a hard time about install details & electrical.... I had to move things around & I am NOT done yet ;-)

When I first fired it up at 5 Hz, it turned but Obviously produced no flow.

By 20 Hz it was outputting about what I was getting from the Dart.

At 30Hz ( original speed of the Barracuda ) I was Blasting things around I dont even want to know what I would do with higher speeds.

When I first fired it up, the "Pump noise" was Far less than the Dart, but the High Frequency "whine" was so bad it even bothered my wife.
I said "Dont worry about that now"...

I adjusted the drive frequency of the VFD & turned it back on & said "Is that better" ... She said "Well Turn it ON".... It was silent.

So far, best upgrade I have done for my system.

Stu

lakee911

12/15/2009, 09:29 PM

Looks good. I'm curious to see what you do for the control...

Oh, and be sure to shut your peckerhead if there is any risk of saltwater down there (if not for safety).

kcress

12/16/2009, 12:40 AM

( DONT give me a hard time about install details & electrical.... I had to move things around & I am NOT done yet ;-)

Damn! I was looking at that, formulating all sorts of comments... :sad1:

Dang that's a big mutha.

So what did you adjust to help with the whine?

BeanAnimal

12/16/2009, 07:52 AM

Sadly, I guess most of us know what a peckerhead is...

stugray

12/16/2009, 08:27 AM

kcress,

"So what did you adjust to help with the whine?"

I adjusted the "Carrier frequency" from 8kHz to 16kHz.

I am assuming that is the frequency of the PWM drive signal.
A comment in the manual states "12-16KHz...the inverter must operate with light loads"

I assume in this application, I qualify for light loads.

In the time I spent letting it run last night, the motor already got warm to the touch, so before I put it in continuous service, I will put a fan on it.

BeanAnimal,

"Sadly, I guess most of us know what a peckerhead is... "

Yeah when I read lakee911's post at first, I thought "What did you call me?.... shut your own pe..... Ohhhh..." ;-)

I also got the speed control to work. I can preset three separate speeds internally, then select which speed I want with an external contact closure.

I'll hook it up to the PLC in the next day or so.

Next is a permanent stand to get some airflow under it & a fan.

Stu

der_wille_zur_macht

12/16/2009, 08:56 AM

I also got the speed control to work. I can preset three separate speeds internally, then select which speed I want with an external contact closure.

Can you give at least an anecdotal explanation of how quickly it changes speeds? For instance, if you have those three preset speeds and "flip the switch" (literally or thought an I/O turning on/off from your PLC) is the speed change nearly instantaneous, or is there some delay while it ramps up and down?

Are you going to control it just by sending digital signals to change between preset speeds, or use some PWM or analog signal and program the PLC to ramp up and down at a certain rate?

& a fan

Isn't that a TEFC motor? I guess the internal fan is spinning slower than the design speed, which I could understand necessitating an external fan, but with that beastly motor running way below it's max output, I'd assume it was producing less heat than it might under full load, no?

stugray

12/16/2009, 09:46 AM

der_wille_zur_macht,

"Can you give at least an anecdotal explanation of how quickly it changes speeds? "

There is an internal parameter that you set that controls how quickly the VFD ramps up or down.

You can set acceleration/deceleration parameter to 0.1 to 999 seconds.

"Are you going to control it just by sending digital signals to change between preset speeds"

Yes, I will just program the PLC to wait say...5 minutes between changes, then I'll set the accel/decel parameter to make it take maybe 3 minutes to reach speed.

That way when the PLC tells it to go to the lower speed, it will take three minutes to get there then dwell for 2 before it begins the ramp back up.

Then when the "nighttime" timer kicks in, the PLC will just tell the VFD to go to the slowest and stay there till morning.

Then I will probably put in a button under the stand so if I press it, it will cycle between mid speed & BLAST ( speed#3 ) for a few cycles then back to the normal cycling. That way I can have a "blow away detritus" mode.

When I was messing with it I ramped it up and saw stuff come out from behind my LR that had probably been there for a while.

"I'd assume it was producing less heat than it might under full load, no? "

Maybe, but after letting it run for just 1 hour, it was noticeably warm to the touch.

I have a monster 12VDC power supply driving my canopy fans, I'll just throw another little CPU fan on the back of the motor.

Stu

der_wille_zur_macht

12/16/2009, 02:00 PM

For the record, here is Reeflo's response when I asked what the differences between the Barracuda wet end and the $119 wet end they were trying to sell to me on a 1.5hp 3450 rpm motor were:

wet end at low speed (1725rpm) is barracuda...Barr wet end at 3450rpm draws 1.5hp.......it depends what rpm you run it at

kcress

12/16/2009, 02:55 PM

stu; I only recall two speed inputs were available yet ye speak of three speeds.. Did they set up those two speed inputs in a binary scheme allowing 4 total speed settings?

If so that could be your "blow away" setting.

About the motor temp. What is the "rise" for that motor?(Should be on the plate.)

Most motors actually are happy to run so hot they will fry your puny human hand. If you can actually keep your hand on it it's likely way cool enough.

As for the higher carrier frequency I believe those VFDs have a built in fan that only runs when the temp rises. I've run mine severely overloaded 2x for scary time periods(20s) and not noticed the fan comming on. I say this because that could show you how much you are pushing the VFD. If you notice the fan coming on soon and always running then you are pushing it.

I would plug it into a wattmeter(Watt's Up) and see what you're drawing. That will show if you are running at "reduced loads".

der_wille_zur_macht

12/16/2009, 03:10 PM

I would plug it into a wattmeter(Watt's Up) and see what you're drawing. That will show if you are running at "reduced loads".

That was going to be my next question. I'd love to see what this rig pulls at a certain output compared to a similarly-powerful static pump. Especially since reeflo seem to be claiming that they use the *same* wet end on everything from a Barracuda to the 1.5hp Commercial Power Series pump capable of 9200 gph and 69ft of head!

lakee911

12/16/2009, 04:16 PM

Must be one heck of a wet end...

stugray

12/16/2009, 05:34 PM

kcress,

"stu; I only recall two speed inputs were available yet ye speak of three speeds.. Did they set up those two speed inputs in a binary scheme allowing 4 total speed settings?"

There is a "Jog" speed, a SP1, & a SP2.

If you check the settings for the multi-function Inputs F_19 & F_20, it shows the binary truth table allows three speeds. I was able to get three speeds just by touching the +12V to either one or both of those multi function inputs after setting the parameters correctly.

"About the motor temp. What is the "rise" for that motor?(Should be on the plate.)

Most motors actually are happy to run so hot they will fry your puny human hand. If you can actually keep your hand on it it's likely way cool enough."

As I figured based on the other three reeflo pumps in my setup.

However I want this one to last for "13 years" like someone else I know so I'll do anything to extend life.

"As for the higher carrier frequency I believe those VFDs have a built in fan that only runs when the temp rises. I've run mine severely overloaded 2x for scary time periods(20s) and not noticed the fan comming on. I say this because that could show you how much you are pushing the VFD. If you notice the fan coming on soon and always running then you are pushing it."

Actually what I noticed ( I'll check again ) was that the fan came on immediately when I put the motor in run.....

"I would plug it into a wattmeter(Watt's Up) and see what you're drawing. That will show if you are running at "reduced loads"."

If I had a kill-a-watt I would - forgot to put that on my xmas list.
Anyone want to trade a Dart wet head for a kill-a-watt ;-)

der_wille_zur_macht,

"I'd love to see what this rig pulls at a certain output compared to a similarly-powerful static pump. "

Nice to know that the wet end can handle 1.5 HP, that means I can push it to the max without damaging the pump, but can my flex PVC ( glued without primer ;-) handle it?

Not sure I want to find out with my ballasts sitting right next to this thing.

Lakee911 - Shut your F'in Peckerh.... Oh sorry I'm off to close my OWN peckerhead - LOL ( made me laugh the first time I read that ;-) Read my response to Bean.....

Stu

H20ENG

12/16/2009, 07:18 PM

Stu,
This is great! Congrats! I know Zachtos is selling these now for crazy money, but cant find the website. Same drive too, IIRC. Great job.

My biggest aversion to shelling out for the VFD setup is #1 failure from bearing currents (pitting), and #2 the dreadful VFD "crickets" you hear all the time. We have a lot of VFDs at work and the high freq noise will drive you up the wall, like KCress mentioned. Glad you were able to adjust that out.

Kcress, 13 years?! Awesome, no bearing currents for you?

I have had great luck and service with factorymation thus far and continue to use them.

TRYFIN,
Does Baldor recommend a type of shaft grounding system for bearing current on these smaller motors? We use Mercotac rotary contacts on our 50HP motors, I havent tried the Aegis brushes yet. Also what really constitutes an "Inverter Duty" motor?

Thanks for sharing Gentlemen!!

kcress

12/16/2009, 07:52 PM

kcress,

"There is a "Jog" speed, a SP1, & a SP2.

Dang. I think my Baldor drive did the binary thing which allowed about 10 digital speeds. (Though I always ran it with an analog signal)

Thanks for that clarification.

However I want this one to last for "13 years" like someone else I know so I'll do anything to extend life.

LOL Good luck. You have "modern stuff". :bigeyes:

Actually what I noticed ( I'll check again ) was that the fan came on immediately when I put the motor in run.....

You are correct. The fan is so quiet I misjudged.
I have a Teco FM50 sitting in my living room wired into my new aquarium stand(for raising and lowering it and 3ph conversion). I just powered it up and it does start with ANY motor drive.

If I had a kill-a-watt I would - forgot to put that on my xmas list.

I thought you were one of us with one! Sorry.

Anyone want to trade a Dart wet head for a kill-a-watt ;-)

Tempted.. But I still use my KaW often enough to regret losing it.

Kcress, 13 years?! Awesome, no bearing currents for you?

Nope! But I must confess my VFD just died. (A moment of silence...........) :sad2:
I'm not sure exactly what has died but the hand controller does nothing, not even lighting up. Since it's that old and is large, (think two large shoe boxes next to each other) , and this whole tank system is being replaced with a new build, I'm not motivated to trouble shoot it.

At the highest modulation frequency, which this has run at the entire time, the noise is still too much. My pump is under the house and you can hear it whining, especially out in the garden.

Furthermore it required 240V so has a separate line running to it. The power available via 240V is nonsensical for the amount of power we actually need at our tanks, so I'd replace it in a minute with a 1ph TECO if this setup was going to continue.

As for Bearing Currents I don't think typical fractional hp motors have any issue with them. There isn't enough capacitive coupling to the shaft from the rotor to cause arcing. That's to my present knowledge. Maybe TRYFIN can clarify this or correct it.

H20ENG

12/16/2009, 08:29 PM

Makes sense, thanks, RIP your old VFD:(

TYRYFIN

12/16/2009, 09:20 PM

On this size motor it is not financial effective to put shaft grounding rings on them. The commercial motors on the Barracuda would be almost impossible to add a shaft grounding system to them. Now the industrial motors are a little easier to add them to. Typically you do not add shaft grounding to motors until you get to 50 hp and larger. Shaft grounding rings either the external ones or the one that are put inside the endbells are not the best way to go if you want to eliminate shaft currents, this is because they require constant adjusting and monitoring. The best way is to use ceramic bearings on one or both bearings, but this is quite expensive.
In industry any motor less than 10 hp is usually considered to be disposable.

stugray

12/16/2009, 10:04 PM

H20ENG,

"My biggest aversion to shelling out for the VFD setup is #1 failure from bearing currents (pitting), and #2 the dreadful VFD "crickets" you hear all the time."

I can honestly say that the pump running at more flow than the Dart is quieter than my Canopy Fans. ( Dart used to be the loudest ).

I cannot even tell the difference between min & max speed by sound.
Spinning at 20 Hz I am getting as much flow as the Dart.

Stugray - "Anyone want to trade a Dart wet head for a kill-a-watt ;-)"

kcress - "Tempted.. But I still use my KaW often enough to regret losing it."

If only we could find a 1/2 Hp 3Ph motor that would drive the Dart wet head, this would seriously compete with the multiple powerhead systems out there.
Couple it with a OM-4 and I think the overalll cost would be low over many years.

Stu

H20ENG

12/16/2009, 10:12 PM

Thanks guys, looking better all the time:)

BeanAnimal

12/17/2009, 05:47 AM

I found a few motors a while back and there was a thread someplace regarding 3P dart conversion. The frame is somewhat oddball if I remember... I think it also meant custom machining of the motor shaft for the dart wet end. I already have a dart and would love to replace the motor on it with a 3P. I have a high end 3P Yaskawa drive (3P to 3P) that should work on 1P - 3P for such a small motor.

I suppose an adaptor plate could be fabricated rather easily if needed.

der_wille_zur_macht

12/17/2009, 07:40 AM

If I had a kill-a-watt I would - forgot to put that on my xmas list.
Anyone want to trade a Dart wet head for a kill-a-watt ;-)

Are you serious? They're like $20. I'll go buy another and trade it to you. :D I need a return pump!

I'm thinking about doing one or more tweet-a-watts (http://www.ladyada.net/make/tweetawatt/) for my 360g build so I can log the data wirelessly on a PC and compare it to data I'll capture on my DIY controller. And/or use it to trigger alarms (if power consumption on some branch of the tank's circuit suddenly falls to zero or climbs too high, it probably means something failed!)

Back on topic though.

If only we could find a 1/2 Hp 3Ph motor that would drive the Dart wet head, this would seriously compete with the multiple powerhead systems out there.
Couple it with a OM-4 and I think the overalll cost would be low over many years.

Why bother with the OM if you've got the VFD? (I'm honestly curious, not trying to argue!)

The quote I got for that "big" wet end at $119, which we know works with 56J motors, means people who wanted something less powerful than your rig could just use a smaller motor, or run at lower speed. It would be cheap to rig that $119 wet end up with a 1/3hp or 1/2hp motor (Baldor JM2450 or 3450), even paying retail. Then you wouldn't have to deal with the oddities of the Dart wet end.

A big thanks to stugray, kcress, TYRYFIN, Bean, and others for all the useful information in this thread. It strikes me as one of the most information-dense threads I've read on here in a long time.

der_wille_zur_macht

12/17/2009, 09:30 AM

So, what's the difference between a 56J frame and a 56C? Appears to be a threaded shaft (J) vs. keyed (C). I'm guessing there's no practical way to convert?

Asking because I found what appears to be a 56C version of Stu's motor on eBay for half the price. It's a Baldor VM3541:

http://www.baldor.com/products/specs.asp?1=1&catalog=VM3541&product=AC+Motors&family=General+Purpose|vw_ACMotors_GeneralPurpose&winding=34WG0255&rating=40CMB-CONT

Cuby2k

12/17/2009, 11:03 AM

stugray

12/17/2009, 12:19 PM

Cuby2k,

"For the small motor loads that we see in this hobby I think the cost of a VFD is really questionable. For the amount of energy you would save over the relatively short life of the pump I think the money would be better spent buying a spare replacement pump."

Did you read the entire thread?

I have been replacing Darts every 2 to 2-1/2 years at nearly $300 every time.
For what I have already spent, I could have had a Red Dragon.

For LESS than that, I now have a CL that should go for more like 10 years with only needing to replace the seal in the wet end (~$30) every couple of years.

This was even cheaper than 2 Korallia Nanos with controller.

Stu

Cuby2k

12/17/2009, 12:32 PM

Cuby2k,

Did you read the entire thread?

Stu

No sorry Stu, I didn't.

der_wille_zur_macht

12/17/2009, 12:36 PM

If throttling is what you desire I would suggest a gate valve on the pump discharge.

That's a totally static solution, unless you're using some sort of actuated valve. What we (or I, at least) want is something that can be programmed to vary speeds over time, to simulate waves or tidal motion. I'm guessing the VFD is cheaper than a reef-safe actuated 2" gate or ball valve ($300 - $400 from what I can find.)

kcress

12/17/2009, 02:59 PM

That's a totally static solution, unless you're using some sort of actuated valve. What we (or I, at least) want is something that can be programmed to vary speeds over time, to simulate waves or tidal motion. I'm guessing the VFD is cheaper than a reef-safe actuated 2" gate or ball valve ($300 - $400 from what I can find.)

That is exactly the monster I must slay. My tank will have a vertical column of water about 10 ft tall that I want to dump into the display. That way a small efficient pump could fill this 6" diameter vertical pipe over time and then I can drain it in a contrlled manner during each surge.

The major stumbling block is that any kind of controllable saltwater tolerant valve in the 4~6" range is insanely expensive. Far more costly than a monster pump and VFD. <sigh>

der_wille_zur_macht

12/17/2009, 03:53 PM

I went through the same thought process on my old 125. Wanted a surge device, but didn't want bubbles or tons of noise. Huge actuated valves looked promising but outrageously expensive.

BeanAnimal

12/17/2009, 04:31 PM

I guess all this talk of Watts is going to force me to reveal my latest project...

A 16 channel true RMS power logging meter :) Circuit design is done, half of the firmware is done and have been working on the PCB layout for a few weeks now.

BeanAnimal

12/17/2009, 04:41 PM

For the small motor loads that we see in this hobby I think the cost of a VFD is really questionable. For the amount of energy you would save over the relatively short life of the pump I think the money would be better spent buying a spare replacement pump. I think you may be missing the point of using the VFD.

You can ramp the drive up and down to create wave action, tidal action or low and high energy periods. You can idle it down during feeding and ramp it way up for post feeding skimming... etc. Some drives can be very easily computer controlled via binary or 0-10V inputs, allowing you to write software to manipulate the flow in the tank.

You can fine tune the interaction between the phases and the motor slip to provide more or less torque at a given RPM.

You can also tune the drive to the desired flow you want and do so with a better power factor and/or less noise than the smaller single phase motor. Example: DART pumps are not at all quiet, but Stu tuned the drive to provide the same flow as a DART but with NO noise.

bearing pitting used to be a huge deal but I have not seen it as an issue in the last 15 years or so but this is in the commercial sector. Not sure what others have experienced with this phenom? Bearing pitting is still the same issue it was 15 years ago. You see less of it becuase more manufacturers, vendors and end users are aware of the problem and are willing to install products to prevent it :)

kcress

12/17/2009, 05:23 PM

BA; 16ch logger. Sounds interesting but what's its purpose? I can't see anyone running 16 multi amp circuits across a PCB. Does it have external connections for the field sensors or am I missing the whole point.

BeanAnimal

12/17/2009, 05:45 PM

Each meter PCB will have (4) I and (1) V ADC, for a total of (4) metered receptacles. Each of the 4 channels will be capable of up to 16A (limitation of the current limiting resistor size) and 20A total combined for all (4). That is, each board will have a single plug and 4 receptacles tied to it. So at most 20A will can be divided between 4 receptacles.

Each PCB will have an Atmega8535 as its workhorse and an RS232 - RS485 tranceiver for I/O... ZIGBEE if I ever get around to it. The meter boards will report directly to a serial terminal and/or to a master AVR (atmega128).

The master controller will handle multiple slave meter boards and allow the real time data and a limited history to be viewed via HTTP and/or a local LCD.

With a 2oz. copper board, a trace with of 200 mil is sufficient to carry 20A. I will have 400 mil worth of cross section per high current trace to be safe.

The goal is not data logging, but rather a simple real-time view of device health. I like to build microcontroller based projects and this as been an interesting learning process. Why not make it modular so that it can be expanded :) Real world use would be on solar or other systems where the consumption of each individual power consuming device may need to be monitored :)

stugray

12/17/2009, 09:25 PM

Ok,

Who has PLC programming experience?

I am trying to do the simplest thing:

wait 60 seconds, turn on Output 1, turn off Output 2
wait 60 seconds, turn on Output 2, turn off Output 1

Seems simple, but the best I can figure it takes ~10 lines of ladder logic, 2 timers, 4 internal relays & 2 outputs ( No inputs though ).

There must be something simpler than that.

I have a SquareD Micro-1 ( IDEC ). It's the most basic PLC out there, someone must have a simpler way.

Bean,

Very interested in your project.
I assume you are using Shunt resistors for the current measurement.... or Hall effect?
If SRs, then you must have a big footprint on the board, or they are external?

AND for AC measurements, there must be some tricky isolation to avoid ground loops in the measurements?

All I do is DC stuff, so the nuances of measuring AC are out of my league.

Stu

stugray

12/17/2009, 11:38 PM

Temperature issues:

Not a show stopper, but after I run the 3Ph motor for 2-3 hours, the motor frame gets so hot that I can only hold my hand on it for 4-5 seconds.

Compared to my continuously running barracuda, the 3Ph is hotter.

I can put my hand on the Orca indefinitely.
Barracuda: 6-7 seconds
3 PH CL: 4-5 seconds

So it s definitely running hotter.

Like TYRYFIN was trying to say. If you run them away from the "sweet spot" expect more heat.

Stu

kcress

12/18/2009, 02:12 AM

BA thanks for that run down. It does sound like some useful fun there.

Stul; It's probably not a problem but you might as well add some more fan. It's not so much a sweet spot issue as a fan losing its usefulness with the square of the speed reduction. So your 1/2 nameplate speed is really only dishing up 1/4 the fan result. Then you're running below even that. On the plus side the pump hp requirement also is dumping off at probably even a greater rate. But you still have the magnetizing current which is real with respect to generating heat in motor.

I wonder if you can get a different fan with huge pitch. Might not fit in the housing though.

Re: PLC, your numbers seem right to me. Just run with it who cares if it takes 10 lines?

You could use one timer and have it feed an SR relay(flipflop) that generates the two states.

BeanAnimal

12/18/2009, 05:42 AM

BeanAnimal

12/18/2009, 05:44 AM

Or use a solid state approach with a 555 timer in bi-stable mode :)

der_wille_zur_macht

12/18/2009, 07:34 AM

Looking forward to that thread, Bean. I'm guessing your device will be cheaper than the ~$55/ea for the tweet-a-watt project I posted.

BeanAnimal

12/18/2009, 02:07 PM

Looking forward to that thread, Bean. I'm guessing your device will be cheaper than the ~$55/ea for the tweet-a-watt project I posted.

I dunno... I am almost scared to look at the per channel cost. I use a lot of decoupling caps, protection diodes, inductors, etc in most of my microcontroller designs... so things tend to add up quick on a non-production scale. What woud cost $20 in production quantity costs $40 in DIY quantity.

I would not be shocked if I spent $40 per channel when it is all said and done. But that is to get a fully modular, distributed design. If I were to lump it all into a single enclosure with 5 boards (4 meters and a master controller board0 with (2) supplies (1 hi-pot side, 1 digital) the cost would drop significantly per channel.

I need to get the prototype done and if it works then I can figure out if it is worth building more of them :)

If you JUST want to build a bunch of single channel devices, each with an RS232 driver.. and tie them all to a surpluss SERIAL port expander, let me know. That would be a bit cheaper than what I am trying to do (network these puppies together).

der_wille_zur_macht

12/18/2009, 02:34 PM

The $55 price per tweet-a-watt includes an xbee radio module, so they're networkable. Ladyada also has software on her site that can automate the devices to a tweeter account, which sounds obscure but has a lot of potential for creativity. If I do end up doing something like this, I'd probably want it on some common serial interface like I2C so I could string a bunch of them to an Arduino - less cost than xbee, at least.

Back on topic - stugray - have you run for longer than the 2 - 3 hours it took to get too warm yet? Hooked up a fan?

stugray

12/18/2009, 07:45 PM

Its ALIVE!!

I have it ramping up & down between two preset speeds in the VFD.
Ramp up & down are separate so I go up slowly to the max of what I think the tank can handle, then quickly down to the min speed.

The PLC ( same computer that controls the RO/DI tank) just tells it:

GO TO SPEED 1
WAIT 60 seconds
GO TO SPEED 2
WAIT 60 seconds
REPEAT

If I feel like injecting air so we can see, I might do a video, but for now there's not much to see except my Torch having his head blown off ;-)

kcress, you were right, even a kludge works sometimes in ladder logic....
( took more like 20 lines with my funkiness )

Stu

Plan>B

12/18/2009, 08:32 PM

Great to hear you have it working... and would love the see a vid on this. I will be watching this closely. Nice work Stu.Its ALIVE!!

I have it ramping up & down between two preset speeds in the VFD.
Ramp up & down are separate so I go up slowly to the max of what I think the tank can handle, then quickly down to the min speed.

The PLC ( same computer that controls the RO/DI tank) just tells it:

GO TO SPEED 1
WAIT 60 seconds
GO TO SPEED 2
WAIT 60 seconds
REPEAT

If I feel like injecting air so we can see, I might do a video, but for now there's not much to see except my Torch having his head blown off ;-)

kcress, you were right, even a kludge works sometimes in ladder logic....
( took more like 20 lines with my funkiness )

Stu

kcress

12/19/2009, 02:35 AM

Sounds like fun stu!

Yeah I often say hang the size do it simple! Often it pays dividends because then you decide you want a different time one part of the cycle. If you've "wasted" a timer on it it's easy to change that timer's value. If you'd compressed everything now it's a re-write or a mind screw while you try to hack or even understand what you did 5 months ago.

If I have code space I use it freely.

Do you turn it down and run it slow at night? How are you doing that?

Can you hear it at night? Have you noticed any EMI problems? AM radios blitzed out? Bars across the idiot tube?

golf nut

12/21/2009, 12:38 AM

The major stumbling block is that any kind of controllable saltwater tolerant valve in the 4~6" range is insanely expensive. Far more costly than a monster pump and VFD. <sigh>

There are other solutions to this issue, what area of water would you like to control something around a 4"dia pipe?

kcress

12/21/2009, 04:22 AM

Hey Golf.

Four or even three inch would do the trick.

It has to be saltwater safe of course.

BeanAnimal

12/21/2009, 04:26 AM

I am sure Paul has a nifty solution :)

FWIW Hayward 2-way and 3-way (etc) valves are on eBay all the time, as are the bolt on controllers ($100 or so if you are patient).

stugray

12/22/2009, 10:28 PM

kcress,

"Can you hear it at night? Have you noticed any EMI problems? AM radios blitzed out? Bars across the idiot tube?"

I cannot hear the pump at all running at the lower speed ( but still visible flow ).
When I ramp it up to full speed, you can hear it, but only a hum.

The barracuda in my basement I can hear from the top of the stairs, but it's pushing against >20 feet of head - hard to compare.

I dont notice any EMI issues & my home entertainment system & wireless router sit less than 8 feet from the VFD.

"Do you turn it down and run it slow at night? How are you doing that?"

I just got that figured out tonight.
I modified a HD AC wall timer.

Now instead of turning AC on & Off, it just creates a "contact closure".

I opened it up & desoldered the contacts to the relay from the AC lines & ran it to an external connector.

Here's a pic of the timer opened up with the guts out:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/Timer_new_open-2000.jpg

Here's a pic of the part where I have to desolder the AC from the relay contacts:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/Timer_circuit_before_unsolder-2000.jpg

I desoldered, removed wires & then cut a trace or two before putting it back together.

Here is the rework:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/timer_circuit_after_soldering-2000.jpg

And the final product:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/timer_circuit_done-2000.jpg

Now the connector is just the contacts of the relay & I can do all sorts of things ;-)

For now it will just tell the PLC when nighttime is & I'll modify the ladder logic to go to the lower speed whenever this input is On ( Closed ).

Stu

kcress

12/22/2009, 11:59 PM

Nice hack. I have a timer modded that way around here somewhere.

I'm kinda shocked your microPLC doesn't have a realtime clock.

stugray

12/23/2009, 12:14 PM

kcress,

I looked in the PLC manual again & could not find any reference to a RTC.

One thing I did notice is that at night, the loudest part is the fan on the VFD.

So I'm thinking of either moving the PLC to the laundry room ( right behind the tank ) as I already have holes through the wall for my pipes, or replacing the fan with a quieter one.

I know I'd be violating Elec code by running the 4X14 Ga. extension cord grade wire right thru the wall with no protection.
Is there a way to do that legally or would I just need some flex conduit from the VFD to the motor peckerhead then pull the cable through?

Stu

BeanAnimal

12/23/2009, 02:41 PM

Stu... use PVC liquidtight conduit. You can't legally pull the extension cord through it... but yoiu can buy THHN by the foot at HD or LOWES. You don't need an entire spool.

kcress

12/23/2009, 02:52 PM

Seems a shame to have to move it just for that fan. The longer the leads between the motor and the VFD the worse all the negative effects get.

You aren't running that VFD at its rated load in a hot ambient. I doubt you're even taxing that VFD. If you want to experiment I bet it would work just fine without the fan as long as it's mounted so you can get free convection.

Alternatively disconnect the fan and affix an external one that isn't as powerful,(read that loud). Or replace the fan with a quieter one.

der_wille_zur_macht

12/23/2009, 02:59 PM

Find a 3-phase fan and use another VFD to turn it down to a lower speed. :lol: (I keed, I keed).

On a related note, I see the FM50 is in an IP20 enclosure. If I'm reading that correctly, it will provide physical protection for the equipment but not moisture protection. Since we're running these near fish tanks, do we need to provide any other protection?

stugray

12/23/2009, 03:13 PM

Bean,

Why dont they want you pulling a sheathed cord thru flex metal conduit?
Is it just a temperature issue - no free convection?

kcress,

"The longer the leads between the motor and the VFD the worse all the negative effects get. "

I already have 10 feet of cord on it - more than enough to reach the other side of the wall.

"I doubt you're even taxing that VFD."
Yeah, that's what I was thinking, I dont think I even NEED the fan.
Maybe I can find a way to kill the fan at night when I am running at the lowest speed & turn it back on during the day.
Too bad the relay in the timer I modded didnt have DPDT ;-)

der_wille_zur_macht,

"Since we're running these near fish tanks, do we need to provide any other protection?"

Funny you mention that - when I was experimenting, it was just laying on the floor.
Someone came over to get some frags & spilled about 2 cups of water from a bag.

It missed the VFD by about 4 inches :-0

So it probably DOEs need an enclosure.
Right now its just mounted to the wall to the side of the tank with a splash guard.
It would be safer in the laundry room with or without an enclosure.

Stu

der_wille_zur_macht

12/23/2009, 03:40 PM

So it probably DOEs need an enclosure.

I'm worried about this on a larger scale given all the DIY electronics planned for my 360g. I'm thinking about doing a large "dry closet" right next to the tank with NO water in it - just electronics. Then use some sort of gasketed hole to pass cables through to the "wet closet" (i.e. compartment housing the sump, topoff, etc.) and the tank itself.

H20ENG

12/23/2009, 04:46 PM

"You can fine tune the interaction between the phases and the motor slip to provide more or less torque at a given RPM."

Bean, et al,
I have heard this multiple times, but have never done it. How would I go about this, and where the heck would I start?? How do I know what the motor "wants" to run at?

Kcress, I was going to mention a conversation Paul and I just had, but he beat me to it :)

Stu,
Most motor fans are just sheet metal, can you just bend the pitch a little higher to get more cooling? (Standard procedure on Reeflo pumps to bend the fan fins away from the shroud upon startup:rolleyes: )

kcress

12/23/2009, 08:05 PM

Hi H2OENG. That fan is your basic computer type plastic fan blade job. No bendy.

Stu I have it. Just drop a resistor in the lead to that fan. Make the value just small enough to always have the fan start spinning. (That's the limiting issue with this trick.)

Most of the fan noise comes in the last ~ 10% of the speed. If you can shave off that last 10 or 20% that fan will be too quiet to hear, yet air will be forced past the heat sinking and the VFD will never over heat in your application.

BeanAnimal

12/23/2009, 09:32 PM

Before we go tossing resistors in series with fans... we may want to do a little Ohm's law calc to make sure we don't create a hairdryer...

kcress

12/24/2009, 01:20 AM

Ahhhh, Stu's good for that. :D

Hookup

01/13/2010, 02:44 PM

Fella's. I'm not very knowledgeable about anything you are talking about here, even though I tried... really i did.

What I have assertained is that to create a variable speed pump, in this case, and mine, to use for a closed loop system, you need to have a 3phase pump and a VFD. The VFD will output variableness ( I think hertz - F=Frequency in VFD ) and cause the 3phased pump to run at different RPM.

Is that correct?

Could a similar effect be created by varying the voltage to the pump? I have a GHL controller with a power-bar where in I can control the voltage (dimmable) to the plugs and would like to use that to achieve the same/similar effect.

I'm really sorry for the questions. I just do not understand this stuff that you guys are talking about, but I want to learn.

TYRYFIN

01/13/2010, 04:07 PM

If you are talking about a Rheostat like what you dim a fan or light, it will not work with motors that have a capacitor on it. Only shaded pole motors can be varied like that.

H20ENG

01/13/2010, 07:42 PM

Hookup,
You could definitely send the 0-10v output of the Profilux to the analog input of the VFD (Variable Frequency Drive), as long as it has that function. Then you program the VFD to minimum output at 0V, max output at 10V.

stugray

01/13/2010, 08:27 PM

"as long as it has that function"

The VFD drive I chose definitely has this option, I am just not using it YET.

Stu

kcress

01/14/2010, 02:06 AM

Fella's.Is that correct?

Yes!

Could a similar effect be created by varying the voltage to the pump?

No. Not with any pump you are likely to have associated with your aquarium.

BeanAnimal

01/14/2010, 07:39 AM

"as long as it has that function"

The VFD drive I chose definitely has this option, I am just not using it YET.

Stu

It may be time to give up the ReeFlo Snapper and put that Yaskawa drive to use. While the Snapper is not noisy, it is far to loud for my tastes. I do love my velocty T4 pumps, but hate cleaning them.

Hookup

01/14/2010, 09:14 AM

How do I know if my pumps are 3Phase or not?

I have on-order 2x Gold Series Darts, but that can easily be changed to Hammerheads or Barracudas... (BTW, what is 3 phase? can some one send me to a link to read?)

der_wille_zur_macht

01/14/2010, 09:17 AM

How do I know if my pumps are 3Phase or not?

If they're plugged into a plain old 120v AC wall outlet, they're single phase.

A grand total of ZERO 3-phase pumps are currently sold for the reef aquarium hobby. It's generally only something you see in an industrial setting.

Hookup

01/14/2010, 09:31 AM

TYVM... bad news.. but damn...

So a person would have to source a 3phase pump and fit-it up... which is what Sturay has done, however I thought it was because he had the pump around, not because it had to be done that way...

This just got significantly more expensive.

der_wille_zur_macht

01/14/2010, 09:40 AM

This just got significantly more expensive.

Not really. Think of it this way. You need the following to have a "normal" static pump in this performance range:

1) A 1-phase motor
2) A wet end

99% of people buy these two components as a preassembled unit. Cost for something like this (a Hammerhead, etc.) is in the $300 range.

To do a variable speed pump, you need:

1) A 3-phase motor: $150 on eBay
2) A wet end: $120 from Reeflo
3) A VFD: $150

So the total cost isn't THAT much different, since you can effectively build the 3-phase version of the pump for about the same or less cost than a pre-assembled pump would cost.

stugray

01/14/2010, 09:44 AM

"This just got significantly more expensive. "

&

"I have on-order 2x Gold Series Darts"

Two Dart golds will run you about $900!!

When did ~$450 become more than $900?

I guarantee that my 3/4 HP barracuda can put out more than TWO dart golds.
I just can never tell because if I run the Barracuda at nominal speed, I will blow all the sand out of my tank.

Stu

Hookup

01/14/2010, 09:47 AM

Great point... I'm not thinking with my head on straight...

However, I am concerned about noise... I am always concerned about noise... it buggs me... ;)

When I buy from reeflow (Gold-series) i know the noise levels are minimal/very low...

To me, buying from ebay would be a crap-shoot for noise levels...

I'm not trying to kill the idea... i want this to work... but if the noise was bad, I'd rip it out and go back to gold-series darts or gold-series hammerheads... and that's just a waste of money...

BTW, der_wille, back in the thread you asked why would anyone chose this over the echotech or tunze in-tank pumps, and I know you got some answers... my reasoning is that all of my plumbing is going thru DIY rock... nothing is visible in the tank (well as close to that as I can get) because you can view the tank from all 4 sides. To ahcieve this a CL was the way to go... Adding in this kind of capability and my profilux controller and i'm looking at potentially having a pretty sweet setup for flow... ( I have 2 Closed Loops on the system, so the possiblities are wild with variable flow! )

Swear to god, I have a half a pack of rolaids in my pants when I think about having this kind of setup... ;)

Hookup

01/14/2010, 09:52 AM

Hey Sturay, I have 2x closed loops to worry about in my system.. sorry for mixing numbers... for each CL there is a single pump... currently planned to be a Gold-Series Dart... however....

Now that I've sumbled onto this thread/concept, i'm rapidly changing my build/design... I am obsessed with this idea!

stugray

01/14/2010, 09:53 AM

IMO - my Dart CL was FAR noisier than my VFD barracuda.

I could hear the Dart CL from my bedroom upstairs at night.

Now I have to stick my head under the tank to even tell if the CL is running.

The fan on the VFD is noisier than the pump is.

Since you already have two CLs in your system, get the VFD barracuda & an OM 2 way to divert the flow back & forth between your two CLs.

Stu

Hookup

01/14/2010, 10:04 AM

IMO - my Dart CL was FAR noisier than my VFD barracuda.

I could hear the Dart CL from my bedroom upstairs at night.

Now I have to stick my head under the tank to even tell if the CL is running.

The fan on the VFD is noisier than the pump is.

Nice to hear... You say VFD barracuda, but your pump is not the barracuda pump.. it's the barracuda wet-end and your 3/4 chiller pump... correct? It's the chiller pump that is dead-quite on your system... ?

Since you already have two CLs in your system, get the VFD barracuda & an OM 2 way to divert the flow back & forth between your two CLs.

haha One problem at a time... but nice idea.

stugray

01/14/2010, 10:26 AM

I dont know why you say chiller pump.

My closed loop pump is a barracuda wet end with a 3/4 HP 3 phase motor.

So as far as the water can tell it IS a barracuda, just running slower than a normal single phase motor.

I DO have a chiller in the garage and it is 1/3 HP.

Stu

Hookup

01/14/2010, 10:48 AM

I thought the 3/4 hp 3phase pump came out of a chiller you had laying around... either way i now realize that it is not the stock pump, it is a different pump with the barracuda wet-end.

But yes, I read where you are driving it as a barracuda (at your peak RPM setting), and the power consumption is the same, again at that setting.

Thanks for the help and input. Luckly wiring this up will be no issue, finding the parts seems farily straight foward as well... reluctant as I am to use ebay... I think it's worth a try.

DeathWish302

01/14/2010, 11:44 AM

It may be time to give up the ReeFlo Snapper and put that Yaskawa drive to use. While the Snapper is not noisy, it is far to loud for my tastes. I do love my velocty T4 pumps, but hate cleaning them.

Agreed! Complete pain to clean Velocity pumps. A hour and several dozen q-tips later and we're ready to reinstall.....

der_wille_zur_macht

01/14/2010, 01:16 PM

reluctant as I am to use ebay... I think it's worth a try.

A model XYZ Baldor motor is a model XYZ Baldor motor. If you're really nervous about eBay, Reeflo offered to put their wet end on a 3-phase motor for me and sell the complete product rather than just the wet end. It was only marginally more expensive than buying the two parts separately.

kcress

01/14/2010, 02:06 PM

I love my T4 (equivalent). I have never needed to cleaned it. But man I hate the 2 degrees F it automatically imparts on my large tank.

Hookup; You need to go back and read thru this thread s l o w l y. :reading: Take your time it's OK if your lips move. :D We'll wait.

You're clearly missing many of the finer points that are all clearly laid out here - including eight by ten color glossies.:)

Hookup

01/14/2010, 03:01 PM

Hookup; You need to go back and read thru this thread s l o w l y. :reading: Take your time it's OK if your lips move. :D We'll wait.

You're clearly missing many of the finer points that are all clearly laid out here - including eight by ten color glossies.:)

I would totally take offence to that comment.... If it wasnt true... Sadly it is true.. I missed many things on the first read...

In fact I did re-read the thread... It makes much more sense now... My lips did move... a lot... had to take a few breaks, get some ice for my headaches, etc.. but I got there...

I then went to baldor's site to try to source a pump... then i got confused, went back to page 1, started reading over... (3rd time) :) Figured out the importance of 56J and where the 230v came from, and how it got there...

It's all good now... if you stay apples-to-apples... changing pumps doesn't even look that problematic so long as is a 56J (housing? connection? standard? - not sure the right word, but it's what ensures the housing and impleller connect to the pump without DIY'ing)

BeanAnimal

01/14/2010, 04:53 PM

When I buy from reeflow (Gold-series) i know the noise levels are minimal/very low...

While ReeFlo pumps are quiet... I still consider them to be rather noisy.

Hookup

01/14/2010, 05:26 PM

what do you like as an alternate pump?

kcress

01/14/2010, 08:18 PM

Thanks Hookup for not taking offense. I was a bit worried but hoped and estimated you'd not. Really a great thread with everything in it.

Sounds like we have a winner! Sign him up. :thumbsup:

If you use two pumps and control their speeds independently you could have some pretty crazy motion in a tank.. (drool)

Hookup

01/14/2010, 08:38 PM

der_wille_zur_macht

01/14/2010, 10:37 PM

Or how about one pump and a modified oceans motions or other valve. Program the VFD to ramp up and down on a several-seconds freqency, and have the valve switch a few times a day.

Then, you get wave-to-wave differences in flow thanks to the VFD, and tidal (directional) differences thanks to the valve.

BeanAnimal

01/15/2010, 08:48 AM

it took some extensive counseling and a strong support network i was able to see the brighter side of your comment... seriously, it takes a lot more than that to offend me.... ;) espically what you nailed the comment...

It's a great thread for sure... and once you've read it a few times (LOL) it's actually really simple.. I'm 100% confident I can purchase the parts new, or on e-bay and get this running..

Connecting it to my 0-10v GHL (both of them) will be a challenge.. but will make this very cool for sure... getting pumps and VFD that can reverse the flow... now that's an option.

Just make sure you purchase a drive that accepts a 0-10V signal.

The "hard" part is getting your lower and upper limits set.

You either set them in the GHL by limiting the voltage range that you utlize... or better, "map" the 0-10V to a range of RPMS in the controller.

In other words, if the pump does not run well below abc RPM, then you map 0V to that RPM and 10V to the MAX rpm that you will ever run the pump at. That means that you can then use the GHL's 0-10V signal to ramp the pump from your chosen min to your chosen max.

Hookup

01/15/2010, 04:16 PM

I really am jazzed about having two independently controlled closed loops... I believe that the VFD STU used has this capability, but when it comes time to order, which should be next week, i'll double check.

stugray

01/15/2010, 04:31 PM

"I believe that the VFD STU used has this capability, but when it comes time to order, which should be next week, i'll double check."

The drive I have can only drive one 3 phase motor.

So if you want true "independence" you would need two 3 phase pumps & two controllers.

I you use the setup as Bean & I have suggested above, then you get the same effect by adding the OM 4-way:

http://www.oceansmotions.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=32&osCsid=50294c8275d1f266f9851f042a7e2093

Stu

Hookup

01/15/2010, 04:47 PM

So if you want true "independence" you would need two 3 phase pumps & two controllers.

Yes, this is what I think provides the most flexibility. The cost is obviously expensive, but in for a penny and in for a pound.

golf nut

01/17/2010, 12:37 AM

You may as well get a full blown PLC to control the pumps VFD and OM units, not likely there will be enough timers or inputs with any off the shelf Aqua controller.

Hookup

01/24/2010, 10:41 AM

One last post before monday when I order up the following. I'm order for 2 closed loops.

The goal:
Have 2 closed loops, independently controlled via my GHL controller using the 0-10v outputs (2 of them on my GHL). Each 3phase pump + VFD will have 10 different RPM's (flows) operating independatly of each other.

The system will run off of existing 120v wireing, though I might need to run a new 15am circuit to drive the VFD's and Baldor pumps. (Pls confirm/comment)

Parts;
2x Hammerhead Housing from REEFLO
2x JM2450 Baldor Pumps (http://www.baldor.com/products/detail.asp?1=1&catalog=JM2450&product=AC+Motors&family=Pump|vw_ACMotors_Pump)
2x TECO FM50 AC Drive, 0.5 HP (http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/it.A/id.192/.f)

The GHL I already have. Though I have no idea how to actually connect it, that's a problem for later. ;)

I've decided not to wait for EBAY price reductions and order direct. I have the budget for this, but want to ensure that I am getting the right parts for the job. I want the system to be QUITE as well.

Stu, any updates? I assume things are still working fantastically?

stugray

01/24/2010, 11:20 AM

Those motors & drives look like the perfect match & have the right frame size.

A couple of things:

1 - when you order the motors, ask about mounting options. Itwould be nice to have an adjustable base so you can turn the motor to any orientation. I assume they have some sort of strap-on mounting base. I made sort of a cradle from plywood and lined it with neoprene foam. I then set that on top of four layers of foam. I get almost zero vibration noise that way.

2 - When you order the wet ends from reeflo, you might as well order an extra set or two of the seals for the impeller. They run about $35 ea. and should last more than 2 years.

The CL is working beautifully. I now have ramping up & down all day and running at the lower speed all night. You should have no trouble doing this with the controller.

The only thing left that I want to do is install a button that I just hold down to make the pump go to "Hurricane force" speed for short bursts when I want to kick up detritus.

Good luck. I'd be interested in hearing what kind of plumbing you intend to put on it ( number of lines, diameters, & nozzles. ).

Stu

Hookup

01/24/2010, 12:23 PM

My tank is pre-drilled... so i'm somewhat limited...

Each CL is fed from a 1.5" pipe, not 2, or a single 2", just 1.5" of flow.

One CL has 3 outputs, the other has 4. I have ordered 2 of the 1.5" in by 4 1" out distributors (See this link, bottom of the page (http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=9288608.9129*ZA2RB1&product=PVC-Distributors))

I am sourcing some low-restriction ball valves to control/adjust each CL return-line. The ones I have access to in town are almost not worth the money... they take a 1" line down to 5/8ths or so... horrible restriction...

I will contact Blador about those mounting options for sure. Thanks for the tip. I will also order a few sets of those replacement seals.

I have to source some nozzles still as well. I'm looking for low-profile, hardly visible and if possible slightly adjustable....

kcress

01/24/2010, 02:14 PM

der_wille_zur_macht

01/24/2010, 03:52 PM

I am sourcing some low-restriction ball valves to control/adjust each CL return-line. The ones I have access to in town are almost not worth the money... they take a 1" line down to 5/8ths or so... horrible restriction...

Did you mean "control" in the sense of turning the flow down? Because, why not just use the VFD to do that?

Hookup

01/24/2010, 09:24 PM

Hookup; You should not have a problem with two of those on a single 15A circuit. You would have monetary problems if you taxed a 15A circuit anyway. LOL

You will not want those pumps running more than maybe 60% normally anyway. 60% x 0.33hp x 746W/hp x 2 = 295W or 3 amps.

Do not worry unduly about having smaller bulkheads by a single size this does not actually cause that much restriction as long as all the other piping is still large. So jump back up to 2" immediately and use a two inch ball valve and you won't notice any difference. In the industry they call this "flow recovery". The water has to accelerate briefly to get the same flow thru the slightly smaller orifice but if it's a very short distance it doesn't amount to much.

A real issue would be having any kind of bend in the suction lines within 5 diameters of the pumps.

This is great! Love to see this pan out.

Are you suggesting that once I go from under the tank, immediately jump-up to 2" diameter plumbing to the input of the pump? "flow recovery"

I can easily do that, which would have, at most 8" of 1.5" flow from the input strainer/grill to the 2" to 1.5" reducer... I like that idea a lot.

I plan to use most 45deg turns, or even flex PVC to smooth-out the flow on both the input to the CL and the output of the CL. The down-side is that it looks more like some one puked out a pile of PVC under the tank as opposed to nice clean plumbing... but I'll work on that.

Great tip!

If I understand the math correctly, you are using 60% as the blended average run-rate given peaks at ~90% and lows down to ~30% output of flow and therefore both pumps would consume, approximately, 300w of power or 3 amps?

Hookup

01/24/2010, 09:27 PM

Did you mean "control" in the sense of turning the flow down? Because, why not just use the VFD to do that?

I suppose I could, though from what I understand the interface is ugly, and I do have a GHL in the basement just askign to be used. The programming interface on it is pretty straight forward... I could have different patterns every day of the week... and with a bit of programming, I'm pretty sure I can even get truly random flow using a left-over PC and a random generator... Not a cheap solution, but I do have the parts already...

I've no doubt, that I could get the CL to create waves, if I adjust the outputs correctly.. right now they are facing all over the place...

kcress

01/25/2010, 02:58 AM

Hookup; Yes to all your questions. Now hurry up about it.. I want to seeeeee it!!!

Hookup

01/25/2010, 10:51 AM

haha... thanks...

Pumps getting ordered tomorrow... sorry for the delay, got a faimly birthday party tonight to get to, and a crazy busy day at work...

I figure 2 weeks to get all the parts in (i'm hoping only 1) and then photos of assembly...

I've now got two local reefers to the point where they are doing the same with their CL's.

der_wille_zur_macht

01/25/2010, 11:04 AM

I suppose I could, though from what I understand the interface is ugly, and I do have a GHL in the basement just askign to be used. The programming interface on it is pretty straight forward... I could have different patterns every day of the week... and with a bit of programming, I'm pretty sure I can even get truly random flow using a left-over PC and a random generator... Not a cheap solution, but I do have the parts already...

I've no doubt, that I could get the CL to create waves, if I adjust the outputs correctly.. right now they are facing all over the place...

Sorry, I had thought you meant you were going to use the ball valves to control flow - maybe just confusion on my part.

Hookup

01/25/2010, 12:12 PM

Sorry, I had thought you meant you were going to use the ball valves to control flow - maybe just confusion on my part.

No not at all! I see the problem.. .and I'm not being clear. My fault.

The ball valves on each of the CL returns are used to create balanced output in a static flow state. I do not trust my plumbing, or knowledge thereof to ensure that all of the outputs within the system have approximately euqal flow. Once that balanced state is achieved, then the VFD's do their magic and all outputs scale proportionately and relatively equally.

My worry was that the first output on the CL would have 50% of the flow, and the second 30% and so on and so on... Path of least resistance kind of issue... So I wanted "paths" that I could manage and control the resistance.

golf nut

01/25/2010, 07:42 PM

Be careful, you only have 4 ports on one loop and 3 on the other, the Reeflo vfd combo has a lot of potential that you might not be able to handle especially if you start turning down ball valves to attain balance.

TYRYFIN

01/26/2010, 01:15 PM

Here is a thought, why dont you up size the drive(VFD) so that its total amps will handle the current draw of both motors. This would save the cost of a second drive. Waste water plants do this all the time. Both motors would ramp up and down at the same time and frequency.

kcress

01/27/2010, 05:32 AM

der_wille_zur_macht

01/27/2010, 07:35 AM

TYRYFIN is correct as usual.. If you want both sides matching in flow.

Personally I think it's a poor idea to match them at all! Why bother with two pumps? The most interesting results are going to happen with NO matchings. Like run them both on unsynchronized different length ramps. They will beat with each other and constantly change the flow patterns in the tank - be really interesting.

Either that, or have them do short pulses, but control the max amplitude such that the strongest pulses come from opposite ends of the tank on a ~12 hour frequency. Then, you'd get the short bursts to imitate wave movement, and an alternating direction of "overall flow" to imitate tidal currents.

Hookup

01/27/2010, 09:55 AM

A single "up-sized" VFD on the two pumps would work well if we also threw OM units in-play... Now there's some chaotic flow... Or go all out and have each CL have an independent VFD, and an OM... At that point the variables are so high I do think you might actually have truly random flow.

Ordering parts today..... yippie!

BeanAnimal

01/27/2010, 06:43 PM

Hookup... please give Paul at Oceans Motions a call... I think he may have a trick or two up his sleeve that may make you smile.

gajopo

01/29/2010, 10:34 PM

stugray

01/30/2010, 11:08 AM

gajopo,

Thanks for the link.
I looked into converting my Dart first but finding the right motor proved essentially impossible without machining.

It's nice to have friends that can do the machining for you for free ;-)

Stu

golf nut

01/30/2010, 01:50 PM

Great thread,

JIMMYJ7090 from BRS turned me to this link, I just finished a VFD conversion of a Dart. Follow this link for more info if you'd like.

http://bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=92520

Are you able to overdrive the motor using this system? how far can you go before cavitation?

kcress

01/30/2010, 08:11 PM

You can only overdrive to the extent that the V/Hz holds up. Once you exceed the motor's base rate the entire setup becomes constant horsepower. That means as the speed goes up the torque drops by whatever it takes to keep the HP constant. Since the pump is likely going to require the torque to increase with the square of the speed increase.. You can see this isn't going to get you very far.

golf nut

01/30/2010, 08:42 PM

I overlooked the fact that the new motor wasn't much bigger than the original. to rephrase, if you used a Dart volute and impeller and coupled to a 1/4hp via VFD at what rpm would you likely get cavitation?

kcress

01/31/2010, 01:30 AM

No way to guess about that. You'd have to talk to the pump maker. They should have pump curves that either show that or will predict it.

afgun

02/24/2010, 04:29 PM

This is really cool; I think I'm going to do it as well. My Hammerhead has some interesting HP data on it... .33 - .25 - .17 - .12 ; not sure what that really means...

I found this motor on ebay BALDOR MOTOR JM3463 0.75HP 1725 RPM 3PH 60HZ 56J NIB

This is the same RPM as my pump motor. Would this be a good choice to replicate what you've done here?

Thanks!

kcress

02/24/2010, 05:06 PM

Yes. As long as it's 3phase and mechanically mates correctly.

afgun

02/24/2010, 05:26 PM

Same speed as stock, 3/4 HP 3 phase, same frame as stock. Sounds like a plan. This is interesting!

afgun

02/25/2010, 10:01 AM

Got a cheaper .5HP motor same speed as stock. Will order VFD too. Lots of parts, no water in tank yet... argh!

guy reef

03/12/2010, 12:48 PM

Hi im upgradeing to a 180gal mix reef and my aquarium has 1 hole in ether side and of the aquarium now what i would like to do is make a wave action with my reeflo dart this sounds like a good idea so all i need is a blader motor 3 phase and a vfd is this right

stugray

03/12/2010, 12:59 PM

guy reef,

You will have a really hard time finding a motor that will connect to the wetend from a Dart.

That is why I upgraded from the Dart to the barracuda wetend.

You will spend less money buying the wetend from reeflow than paying a machinist to make the dart work ( ~$125 ).

Stu

das75

03/12/2010, 01:34 PM

guy reef

03/12/2010, 02:13 PM

ya but i only have 2 holes in my aquarium one in and one out . Last night i seen a video on utube called Tsunami Wave Maker if u wacth that video you will see what i want to do

kcress

03/12/2010, 02:38 PM

ya but i only have 2 holes in my aquarium one in and one out . Last night i seen a video on utube called Tsunami Wave Maker if u wacth that video you will see what i want to do

Link?

guy reef

03/12/2010, 03:01 PM

just go to youtube and copy and paste this in (Tsunami Wave Maker )

guy reef

03/12/2010, 03:19 PM

Could i not just use the reefflo dart on a off / on motion or will that ruin the pump

das75

03/12/2010, 05:04 PM

If this is the link (TWM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCgLY0baPOk)) believe I've seen on the OM site. Device is a valve with the motor at a constant speed.

The VFD will just vary the flow from the pump equally to the outlets.

For that type of wave effect have you looked into wave boxes? There's factory made but here a DIY youtube link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1duSSdjRb4&feature=fvw) that shows clearly how they work.

kcress

03/12/2010, 07:55 PM

Could i not just use the reefflo dart on a off / on motion or will that ruin the pump

You would not want to cycle a motor on and off very frequently unless you have a three phase motor and you do it with a VFD.

golf nut

03/12/2010, 08:03 PM

The Tsunami device uses a valve that reverses both the inlet and outlet of the pump with a mechanical valve.

guy reef

03/12/2010, 09:02 PM

what if i put a ball valve on a motor like a sea swerl has just a thought but it might be to hard on the pump

kcress

03/13/2010, 12:27 AM

No. Restrictions on aquarium pumps are not harmful in any way if they aren't restricted to less than about 10% of full flow.

TYRYFIN

03/13/2010, 01:35 PM

For those of you that are experiencing noise issues (electrical), a simple fix is either put a line or load reactor in the circuit. IMO i would put it between the drive and motor. We use these in areas that have problem with noise or have alot of electronics.

stugray

03/14/2010, 05:05 PM

So I finally did the experiment where I just stick an airline tube inside the CL intake.... no air pump required.

Here is a video of at least two up/down cycles from 15 Hz to 20 Hz & back down again (with bubbles):

http://s366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/stuartjgray/Tank_details/?action=view&current=bubble_flow_experiment_lights_on.flv

Sorry about the poor quality. It was recorded using a HD cam to quicktime & the conversion or the upload ruins it.

Before you could clearly see the mandarin begging at the front & even read the Hz on the VFD to the left.

Stu

golf nut

03/14/2010, 05:20 PM

Sweet

It is actually better than it appears, bubbles rise and do not show true results, I use injection molding pellets to get a better idea of what is really happening. (there again I don't do it in a tank full of coral)

kcress

03/14/2010, 11:42 PM

The point stu?

It certainly shows your flow nicely.

Confess that you have the motor buried under a cubic yard of sponge rubber.. Go ahead say it. Nothing to be ashamed of..

stugray

03/17/2010, 10:38 PM

"Confess that you have the motor buried under a cubic yard of sponge rubber.. Go ahead say it. Nothing to be ashamed of.."

No the pump is still the quietest thing in my system. The hood fans & the fan on the VFD are still louder.

NOW.... If you are vewy, vewy quiet and sit stil on the couch, with the TV off.... you can feel the pump spin up & down.
Since this is the noisiest room in the house for the usual reasons, I honestly cant tell that the CL is running except looking at the VFD display or watching the corals blow around.

BTW - that video has sound. I should just do it again & turn off the fans.

Stu

kcress

03/17/2010, 11:24 PM

That video was amazing - as is. You know how the auto volume always maxes out when no one talks? So even something like a cricket's heartbeat becomes nauseously loud? I was really impressed with the the sound level. I could just barely hear something running and it was at a fixed level unrelated to the VFD ramping.

You've sold me on doing the same thing.

stugray

03/17/2010, 11:40 PM

Oh, and BTW, my max speed I run at is 20 Hz, so I am at 1/3 motor nameplate speed or ( 0.33 * 3450 ) ~1150 RPM.
Since a barracuda runs normally at 1725, then I am essentially at 2/3 the flow of the stock barracuda at my max.

I have only pushed it higher than that once and I think 30Hz would be disastrous for more than a second or two.

Stu

stugray

04/18/2010, 12:28 PM

We never heard back from Hookup.

He said he was buying parts for two of these.

I hope he didnt electrocute himself ;-)

Stu

kcress

04/18/2010, 12:56 PM

That's right!
I wonder how that went?

BeanAnimal

04/18/2010, 01:11 PM

Just made me think Stu...

CSI had an "electrocution" episode where Rascal Fats (flats?) was "electrocuted" by his guitar, and went to the hospital and was treated for "electrocution". The CSI team investigated his "electrocution".

No wonder we are breeding a generation of nitwits! A popular science based prime time TV show is incapable of correctly using common language. If I had a buck for every kid I heard say "I got electrocuted..."

Doesn't anybody learmn the meaning of words anymore?

golf nut

04/18/2010, 03:28 PM

Doesn't anybody learmn the meaning of words anymore?

It's just shocking, spelling too :)

BeanAnimal

04/18/2010, 03:31 PM

I have an excuse... it is Sunday well after beer:thirty and the NHL playoffs are on!

sober_pollock

04/18/2010, 05:36 PM

A Special Kind Of Electrocution For Women?????:confused::confused::confused::confused:

The definition doesn't say anything about "Nucular" power though :sad2::sad2::sad2::sad2:

Electrocution
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Electrocution is the stopping of life (determined by a stopped heart) by any type of electric shock. In the vernacular, the term electrocution is used to mean:

* accidental injury, death, murder or suicide by electric shock
* deliberate execution by electric shock, usually involving an electric chair; the word "electrocution" is a portmanteau for "electrical execution"

Electrocution is also frequently used to refer to any electric shock received but is technically incorrect. This choice in definition varies from dictionary to dictionary.[1] [2]

Death can occur from any shock that carries enough current. Small currents (40 mA - 700 mA) usually trigger fibrillation in the heart which is reversible via defibrillator, but large currents (> 1 A) cause permanent damage via burns, and cellular damage. The heart is most devastated by foreign electricity, next is the brain.[citation needed] Women are more susceptible to macroshock electrocution than men, but men are equally susceptible to microshock electrocution.[citation needed]

pollock
:)

spieg

04/19/2010, 07:25 AM

We never heard back from Hookup.

He said he was buying parts for two of these.

I hope he didnt electrocute himself ;-)

Stu
Last I heard from him he decided to go a different direction. So since he didnt bite the bullet, I guess im going to have to. Im a little ways off yet, and I already blew the money on a barracuda gold, but once Ive got everything up and running (hopefully by June), my first upgrade is going to be changing out the single phase barracuda motor to the JM2450 he linked earlier in the thread. Ultimately I want to control mine with an apex as well, so I might need some help from you guys at that point.

Is it bad when you plan an upgrade to something before you ever power it on in stock form?

afgun

04/19/2010, 08:16 AM

Is it bad when you plan an upgrade to something before you ever power it on in stock form?

I hope not, otherwise I'm in deep dip... I have a brand new dart that will be running my tank, but already acquired a 3ph motor and am going to order a VFD after I get water in the tank. :)

der_wille_zur_macht

04/19/2010, 08:24 AM

A question for stu, kcress, or others who have done this with this particular VFD. (It's the one I'm planning on using). Stu, it looks like you're using the digital input pins on the device to ramp between preset frequencies. I don't want to "lock" myself into a program quite that much. Instead, I was planning on using the analog input (MVI), controlled via PWM pin (from a uc) through a transistor and low pass filter. Looks like there's a 10v source and gnd right there next to MVI so it should be pretty straightforward.

But, am I missing anything? If I go this route, I'm guessing I'm going to have to do the "sloping" myself, i.e. I won't be able to give it a 20% signal and then switch instantly to 50% - I'll have to "ramp" from 20% to 50% slowly. Is this correct? If so, how do I determine the slope? i.e. can I go from 5% to 100% in 1 second? Or is there some maximum slope I can't exceed (and if there is, is it dictated by the VFD or the motor/pump?)

At this point I'm trying to feel out my options for what degree of control I'd have available. Any help clarifying would be much appreciated.

ahmedess

04/19/2010, 02:02 PM

I m setting up a 75g and i m planning on having a CL for water movement. I d like to know if its possible to use a VFD to control an eheim 1262 pump for example.

where i live i dont have many options to chose from regarding marine aquarium equipment, so most of the stuff i have to DIY or order online and pay a lot of shipping cost and customs. thats why i m thinking of using a VFD because it is readily available where i live.

kcress

04/19/2010, 02:05 PM

You should have no problem with your plan. There are typically settings in the VFD to control the ramp rates. So you can send in 0V then 10V and the drive will just ramp there as fast as it is allowed by the ramp settings.

If there isn't a ramp setting it still doesn't matter as it will just ramp as fast as it can. Nothing will be harmed.

If I recall, on these drives it's the acceleration parameter. There may be a separate deceleration setting too.

I can't think of a drive that doesn't have some sort of setting like this because it is a requirement for the jog function. If you don't have an accel setting, jog could only go to full blast instantly which is almost always bad..

afgun

04/19/2010, 02:39 PM

der_wille_zur_macht

04/19/2010, 02:41 PM

ahmedess

04/19/2010, 03:31 PM

Ahmed you will need a motor that can be controlled via a VFD. Here we are using 3-phase motors with an inexpensive VFD. I do not know if the type of motor in an Eheim pump can be controlled with a single phase VFD... you'll probably want to contact the manufacturer.

What qualities make an AC motor controllable by a VFD? I know that VFDs decrease voltage as frequency decreases to limit current through the motor and since i m not planning to run the motor above its rated frequency then i think i should be safe if i provide a method of cooling to the motor like using a fan, is that correct?

golf nut

04/19/2010, 05:04 PM

What qualities make an AC motor controllable by a VFD?

It needs to be a 3 phase motor

golf nut

04/19/2010, 05:06 PM

I picked up a VFD and motor a while ago to play with, I have one of the newer Iwaki wet ends to attach to it, I may as well get away from seals immediately rather than later.

Running it on it's own it seems fine but does have noisy areas that need to be avoided, the plan is to drive the VFD with a PLC to get the results I want but time isn't on my side and its sitting there just turning away being poked to get different speeds now and again.

kcress

04/19/2010, 06:04 PM

Yep, you need a three phase motor. Don't even go near single phase motors or speed controls for them.

ahmedess; If you want full torque out of a VFD slowed motor you need to add auxiliary cooling air flow. BUT! A motor feeding a centrifugal pump has the torque requirement plunge with speed. So at the slower speeds the motor is doing very little work and has little load.

Best bet is set it up and run it. Keep checking your motor's temperature. If you can put your hand on the motor it is FAR cooler than needed. So if you can't keep your hand on it, supplement the cooling.

DWZM; Yeah, have a blast.

Hookup

04/19/2010, 06:11 PM

I ended up budget poor... as most, well some of us do.... I had to go with used hammerheads for version 1... v2 will be the 3phase system...

I was ready to pull the trigger... infact the LFS I deal with was ordering the parts as well..... but it seemed to drag out and never get done.... then my wife found out how much I had spent so far...

And now we have something to look forward to by way of upgrades... ;)

ahmedess

04/20/2010, 03:29 AM

Yep, you need a three phase motor. Don't even go near single phase motors or speed controls for them.

There are drives for single phase motors why would that be a problem controlling a single phase motor?

kcress

04/20/2010, 04:43 AM

Because single phase motors function on a completely different method, than three phase motors, that doesn't lend itself to variable speed. Many single phase motors have start windings that cannot be addressed by a variable speed controller. And, most single phase speed controllers cost more than a three phase controller AND a motor while delivering pitiful performance. The only place they even vaguely make sense is stuff like retrofitting existing fan applications that require small sub 1/4hp motors that are a specific type.

ahmedess

04/20/2010, 11:32 AM

What about koralias controllers are they single phase VFDs?

stugray

04/20/2010, 12:06 PM

"What about koralias controllers are they single phase VFDs? "

Yes they are, but at 24-28 VAC.

Stu

der_wille_zur_macht

04/20/2010, 12:24 PM

And a teeeeeeeeeeeeny tiny fractional HP motor - efficiency, cost, and other concerns don't transfer well from that size to the motors being discussed in this thread.

ahmedess

04/20/2010, 01:39 PM

whats like the smallest 3 phase motor available? I couldnt find anything smaller than 1/3 hp.

kcress

04/20/2010, 03:19 PM

1/4hp is about the smallest you will ever stumble across (and rarely!)
1/3 hp is fairly common.

What IS the smallest? You can get anything you want. 1/100hp if you want to pay for it. :)

ahmedess

04/20/2010, 05:20 PM

I just want a pump that wouldnt be an overkill for a 75g CL and at the same time controllable and quiet. I know single phase motors are more common in small sizes than 3 phase ones.

spieg

04/20/2010, 07:01 PM

Thats part of the beauty of the VFD. Go with the JM2450 and just run it at 50%. Saves on power but you always have the ability to crank it up later.

BeanAnimal

04/20/2010, 08:50 PM

I just want a pump that wouldnt be an overkill for a 75g CL and at the same time controllable and quiet. I know single phase motors are more common in small sizes than 3 phase ones.

3-phase is your only option. You are not going to find a single phase solution.

4adam12

04/26/2010, 08:53 PM

These ideas and questions always make more sense swimming around in my head before I ask them but here goes. I have two tanks right next to each other with a common sump, if I put a 2" drain in each tank to the closed loop pump and put a 2" pipe between the tanks would I be able to run one pump to do both tanks without having to worry about flooding one or both tanks? It seems that most folks doing this run their pumps way below 100% so I figured that a single pump should be sufficient flow wise.
Thanks for the help.

kcress

04/27/2010, 12:22 AM

That would work. Safest is if either overflow could handle the full pump output.

4adam12

04/28/2010, 08:16 PM

Thanks for the reply, what would be the best way to ensure that? They are both reef ready tanks so I figured I was stuck with the stock overflows. I have my barracuda wet end and I have two Allen-Bradley 160-AA08NSF1 VFDs that I got when I first read Luke's thread, I just haven't gotten a motor yet. Do you think that these are ok or would I be better off getting the ones used in this thread?

kcress

04/29/2010, 12:11 AM

Thanks for the reply, what would be the best way to ensure that? They are both reef ready tanks so I figured I was stuck with the stock overflows.

Thinking about this some more I realize what you wrote could describe several radically different setups... A sketch or diagram would be very helpful.

I have my barracuda wet end and I have two Allen-Bradley 160-AA08NSF1 VFDs that I got when I first read Luke's thread, I just haven't gotten a motor yet. Do you think that these are ok or would I be better off getting the ones used in this thread?

No, those are horrible and you should immediately send them to me so I can properly dispose of them.

:lolspin:

Those are kickass drives about 4 cuts above the Tecos we've been discussing in here. The model you have is about 3 times bigger than you'd actually need, but that usually just means they run cooler. You may need to alter some of the default settings for optimum use and protection, but we can help you that.

Back to your multi-tank one pump configuration. I have been running three tanks from one VFD 3/4hp pump for 13 years and would seriously recommend you put water level sensors in that trip off the drive if a level imbalance starts to occur.

My pump moves about 150g/minute. That's right 3 gallons a second. In the blink of an eye you could have 20 more gallons in a tank than it can hold. I made some very brief errors that had the water 5 inches over the top of one of my tanks with the control in my hand. Because I just happened to have siliconed a 6 inch high surround into that tank for light shading not a drop hit the floor.

Anyway, water level detectors relieve all these concerns and let you sleep without a flood hitting. I use optical sensors that have no moving parts and trigger the instant water touches a plastic rod. If one of your tanks experiences a clog on its suction port that tank will not be getting rid of the water that is being brought by the pump. That means an overflow as the other tank is completely transferred into it.

Since you state your tanks are next to each other you should consider a jump between tanks. The fish groove on them, people go crazy over them.

4adam12

04/29/2010, 09:49 PM

Here is a general idea of what I am trying to do. New to SketchUp so you will have to forgive it being incomplete but hopefully you get the jist of it. One tank is 60x18x26 (120) and the other is 48x18x25 (90). I am going to raise the 90 up an inch on the stand and hide the difference with a trim piece. The black sections are the overflows just in case the pictures don't make sense.
I planned on using 2" for the drains and a 2" piece between them but I wonder if that is enough. It seems pump numbers are sometimes used casually and you don't think about it much until it is put into perspective on just how much water is going through the pipes!
Do you have a preferred brand or type of sensor that you use or are they all pretty much the same? Also, where would you put them?
I have the little programing keypads with those VFDs, I will put them in the envelope too!:lolspin: Now if I could just get a deal on a good motor like the VFDs I would be happy. Thanks again for the help.

kcress

04/29/2010, 10:53 PM

Thanks for the pics. That clears up a lot. That should work just fine. I presume you have a TEE in that middle section that is the supply for the pump.

I think you're missing a jump opportunity which you could add with no change to what you've shown, or would replace the middle loop entirely. (You would still need to tap one of the tanks for the pump suction.)

Sensors: I use some like these,
http://www.fluidswitch.com/pages/OpticalLiquidLevelSensorOS-900.htm

But any type that gets it done is fine. They mount on the top above the water. The key is that whatever sensor you use never ever touches the water unless there is a problem. This avoids things growing on it or building up on it, or snails walking on it. This also means you can't see it thru the front of the tank so it's not an eyesore. You would need to get the type of sensor that would operate in the manner needed to correctly cancel your drive's running point closing on water rise or open on rise.. Depends on how you hook up the drive control signals.

How did you plan to control the drive?

BTW: About how much did one of those put you out for? And did you get it direct from AB?

4adam12

04/29/2010, 11:33 PM

I had planned to combine the two drains before the pump with a sanitary "T" (I think that is what it's called). I was thinking maybe 4 returns in the 90 and maybe 6 in the 120.

You are going to have to explain the jump concept to me, to be honest, all I can think of, is a ramp between the tanks that the fish jump over but I don't think that's what you mean.

As far as the drive I was kind of hoping for a set and forget for now. I would really like to get a controller like the Apex because it has networking built in and also takes external inputs that I would like to use for my generator for run, fail and low fuel but that takes up 3 of the 6 and I don't know if you can add more. I paid $50 for the 2 drives with the keypads. I bought them from a guy that got a pallet of goods from a company going out of business. I also got a bunch of Allen-Bradley stuff, soft starts and such along with about 12 F and K frame square d 3 pole breakers but that was a separate deal. One of these days I will get the stuff up on e-bay.

golf nut

04/30/2010, 01:46 AM

Fish bridge:)

http://www.bio-elite.com/waterbridge.htm

kcress

04/30/2010, 04:08 AM

Thanks Nut! That's what I meant.. Except, I just make them out of acrylic in square or rectangular profiles.

WOW Adam nice deal u made!

4adam12

05/01/2010, 08:14 PM

That's pretty neat! I know it's getting a little off topic of vfd closed loops but I would love to see a picture or two of some you have made kcress. Anybody have any experience with these?

http://www.electricmotors.com/jetpumpmotor2.html

lower part of the page. Curious if they are junk or half decent.

kcress

05/02/2010, 12:27 AM

I have no experience with that motor brand but I suspect they'd be fine. Thanks for the link. I'll probably get one myself.

Here's kind of a close up of my tang doing his vulture imitation:
http://www.box.net/shared/static/vt29lxmj5e.jpg

der_wille_zur_macht

05/02/2010, 05:18 AM

Motors on that site are cheaper than used ebay bargain Baldor motors seem to go for. If anyone gets one, please report back!

kcress

05/02/2010, 01:19 PM

My thought too. Those are really inexpensive.

4adam12

05/02/2010, 04:56 PM

It looks like they carry a two year warranty, no questions asked. I saw the same motor on another site for somewhere around 75 bucks but not sure of the warranty though. As far as that motor goes, with a service factor of 1.6, does that mean anything as far as quality? I looked for an efficiency rating but didn't see one.

der_wille_zur_macht

05/02/2010, 06:20 PM

1.6 is more or less the same or better than the SF for the Baldor motors people have used to date.

Unless someone turns up something objectionable about these I'm going to buy one when I'm at that point in my build (maybe a month).

kcress

05/03/2010, 12:48 AM

I am rather annoyed they don't show data sheets. Nothing - nada. Not even a make. You can't see curves. You can't see efficiencies. About what you'd get dealing with a drug dealer. :)

Likely Chinese...

der_wille_zur_macht

05/03/2010, 07:50 AM

Emailed the vendor asking about more complete specs. I'll report back if they respond.

4adam12

05/03/2010, 08:43 AM

Thanks for posting that, I was just going to do the same thing.

BeanAnimal

05/03/2010, 09:25 AM

You mean you emailed the vendor and asked them to send you the specs that they copied from the baldor, or A.O. smith nameplate... even though the motor was never tested against those specs.

I bet if you asked them if that motor was TGIF listed, they would say "yes". :D

Don't get me wrong, I bet the motors are just fine for our purposes... I just wouldn't try to bid them into a SPEC job, no matter what their datasheet says! They list a 1.6 SF... I would love to see that motor pushed to 1.6x its rated load!