Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[RyanTurner]

Peter, I just bought a new BMW...I think it's time for a little road trip up to your place! ;)

Tank's looking AMAZING as always.

[NVES]

Hi Peter,

WOW is all I can say!

It's been about 2 months since I last saw a picture and the difference is simpley amazing. I love the arch - that's my fav section.

It must be hard to pull yourself away from watching it.

Take care,
Aaron

[mr.wilson]

Hey Mr. Wilson! ....and Mr. Nineball! I have read every word so far and each time the tank looks more amazing than before!!!

I was wondering, I don't think there has ever been a mention of adding an algae turf scrubber to the system. From seeing your philosophy here, I would have thought you would have considered putting one on Peters tank. On second thought I'm sure you considered it but chose not to. It seems to me they make so much sense. I've read alot about them and even read Dr. Walter Addey's book (twenty years ago). Does the "cheeto" do exactly the same thing?

In all your spare time, could you share your thoughts on this? Even if you don't like the idea, you'll have to include turf scrubbers in your book anyway!

Thanks!!!!!

mark

Sorry for the late response. The ATS issue is a long discussion but I will keep it brief. ATS (algae turf scrubbers) have a bad reputation due to the wide definition and sometimes poor application of the method.

What we now call a refugium, is an algae turf scrubber of sorts and they do work well. In my opinion the limiting factor is the great depth at which the algae is allowed to "ball up". The lower levels don't get light and subsequently die off leaving the nutrients they have trapped. A shallow trough (4-6" deep) minimizes shadowing and optimizes growing conditions.

Another issue is algae selection. Most varieties of algae have around the same nutrient uptake. Some are faster growing than others, but this can come at the cost of stability. Caulerpa is faster growing than Cheatomorpha or gracileria, but it can die off with sexual reproduction if the photoperiod and water quality ranges, as these are cues of season changes in the wild. With a 12-16 hour steady photo period, it is unlikely that caulerpa will ever reproduce sexually. Turf, hair and cyanobacteria are pest algae and should not be used for an ATS. They can easily find there way into the display, they add yellow pigmented tannins to the water, and they "bleed" when you harvest (cut) them. Nutrients and algae tissue will leak out into your system and cause nuisance algae blooms. Also keep in mind that algae release (allelopathic) chemicals that may restrict the growth of invertebrates so algae selection is important. Chaetomorpha is slow growing in comparison to caulerpa but with high intensity lighting it is more than enough. We are also growing sargassum grass just because it cropped up in he tank one day. We harvest a large quantity of Chaeto every week and along with it quite a bit of phosphate, nitrate and heavy metals.

Another poor design is vertical panels as the cause the algae to tear and fall off. They also cause salt creep, noise, and odours. Often a light is placed close to the vertical panel with questionable wiring practices.

During the day, algae convert Co2 into oxygen during photosynthesis, and at night they convert o2 into Co2 during respiration. During the day they take nutrients out of the water, while at night they release a portion of them. A good ATS design would take the unit offline during the night/dark period. In our case, the refugium is fed by the protein skimmer throughput/feed. Once the system has matured, we will shut the skimmer down at night by putting the feed pump on the same outlet/timer as the refugium light. Shutting the skimmer off at night helps restore bacteria levels, allows plankton to do their nightly swim in peace (instead of pieces), and takes the refugium offline so the chaetomorpha doesn't leach nutrients or lower the PH (co2 = carbonic acid).

We are using plasma lighting for the refugium to "supercharge" it. We also have 40 gallons of refugium/ATS on the two walls where our mangroves are planted. Mangroves don't impact PH as their leaves are above water so we will run them 24/7.

[Spirofucci]

Thanks Mr. Wilson! Your wisdom and the way you explain these things is always informative and interesting!!!!

I hope you are in the least developing an outline for the book!!!!

thanks,

mark

[sltloser]

Mr. Wilson, I dont mean for this post to sound rude, but i'm questioning some of the things you're saying.

- There shouldn't be more than one defnition for an algae turf scrubber, it is a system that uses high water flow over a screen and with high light to grow attached filamentous algae as a means of water purification. It's used both commerically and in home aquaria.

-Hair algae is exactly what should be used on an ATS because it is a fast growing algae that readily takes up nutrients. And although some "bleeding" may occur when you are harvesting the algae, the same thing happens when you trim chaetomorpha, as you pull it out from the sump the water drains out, and detritus that has piled up falls into the tank, so i'm not sure that there is much of a difference there.

-You say that "algae release (alleopathic) chemicals into the water that may restrict the growth of invertebrates" although this may be true, chaetomorpha is also an algae so it would be do the same thing. As far as i know alleopathic chemicals are usually released by plants during chemical warfare to outcompete eachother, Having only one type of algae should limit the amount of competition therefor the release of these chemicals should be small.

- Simply using activated carbon in the tank will take out any "yellowing" of the water.

-You also state that vertical ATS are a poor design because the vertical pannels cause the algae to tear off and fall, by using turf algae and having a rough screen you should be able to prevent this from happening as turf algae grows in high flow areas. If the hair algae happens to fall off it shouldn't create a problem, it will just be pushed back into the tank and your herbivors will take care of it.

-The chetomorphia algae also goes through photosynthesis, and respiration so you'll have the same thing happening. Many people just run a reverse cycle on their refugium/ATS lighting so as to have a steady pH, so why not just do this?

-I'm not sure how the cheatomorpha leaches nutrients at night, it would still be using what it gained during the day for respiration; the same byproducts would be produced during this as in photosynthesis (with the addition of CO2).

[sltloser]

I forgot to add this link if you woud like to know how well different methods/algae are at exporting nutrients.(this isn't all methods, but i would say they are the mains ones used)

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/index.php

[Allmost]

very nice progress :) cant wait for more pics, and also pics of the new sumps to come :)


just a question, maybe it was covered and I missed it. but do you guys dip the new SPS corals ? if so can you give us more info on this topic Mr. Wilson ?

I got a piece from a LFS in the area, and well I did not dip it and now have red bug and also flatworm Issues ... not that visible as I run Zeovit and very low nutritions, but I have a new 180Gallon tank cycling, which all the corals will be transferred to, and rather not transfer the pests, can you advice me a dip before the transfer ? (sorry for going off topic a bit, )

Mr. Peter, Great post about enjoying the tank :) I have made a rule at my place, no maint. after 10 PM , 10-1 am is my time to enjoy the tank lol again, thank you for this great thread :)

[bluesox_68blues]

Well I just wanted to say thanks to Peter for having me over to look at his masterpeice! Pictures don't do it justice! Thanks again. I told Bella I met her cousin Molly by the way. lol

[kj52faith]

Put a youtube video up please :D

[tonyespinoza]

Mr. Wilson - What are the downsides to running a chaeto refugium 24/7?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge with all of us! And thanks to Peter for employing you in this awesome journey that we all get to learn from and build on together.

[Sanlynn]

Thanks autodave,

I have a special desk called 'the wing' that my wife hates. It was made by a sculptor who made four desks in solid wood. The tree, the cloud, the mushroom, and my desk, the wing. I'm planning to try the desk and perhaps solicit feedback that will help me in the battle plan. For those who are interested, it is sort of like a giant manta ray in solid white ash.

Other than that I haven't settled on anything else yet.

Peter

Hi, I'm new to this thread and haven't got through all the messages and am sorry if this very old post has been commented on, but when I read this I was reminded of the desk in a Bravo TV show "9 by Design" - is it anything like that - aptly called "The Shark Desk"? (Photo at link below, I hope.)

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/boston/furniture-design/something-to-talk-about-the-shark-desk-by-zaha-hadid-115660

In any case, thank you so much for this most amazing thread. The generousity you are displaying in sharing your time and experience is inspirational. I am hooked (and subscribed).

[l.MetalHead.l]

VISION

To create a suite of 4 coral islands in a shallow lagoon. Each island is to be named in recognition of four of the top aquarists generally acknowledged by members of the reef central community.


But what is the purpose?

[kharmaguru]

But what is the purpose?

Well most people's purpose doesn't go beyond - "I want one". Peter actually builds one with an artistic intention to honour his mentors and you still need some deeper meaning? 42, that's it! the answer is 42.

[mkbtank]

But what is the purpose?

Acknowledgement. Beauty. Enjoyment. Setting and a general raising of the bar of reefing best practices.

To name a few. :)

[nineball]

Well most people's purpose doesn't go beyond - "I want one". Peter actually builds one with an artistic intention to honour his mentors and you still need some deeper meaning? 42, that's it! the answer is 42.

Acknowledgement. Beauty. Enjoyment. Setting and a general raising of the bar of reefing best practices.

To name a few. :)

Thanks guys........

Peter

[nineball]

Hi, I'm new to this thread and haven't got through all the messages and am sorry if this very old post has been commented on, but when I read this I was reminded of the desk in a Bravo TV show "9 by Design" - is it anything like that - aptly called "The Shark Desk"? (Photo at link below, I hope.)

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/boston/furniture-design/something-to-talk-about-the-shark-desk-by-zaha-hadid-115660

In any case, thank you so much for this most amazing thread. The generousity you are displaying in sharing your time and experience is inspirational. I am hooked (and subscribed).

first of all, neat desk. Mine is a little more functional and is called the wing. I will take a pic and post later tonight if I get a chance. Thank you very much for being a part of this community.

Peter

[reefer ready]

This is my first post. I would like to say thank you to all of the members of reef central! Great site, wisdom, knowledge, totm,s speak for themselves. You guys have inspired me to do a reef tank! Ive been out of the hobby for 10 years. Im back and its so fun!

In our case, the refugium is fed by the protein skimmer throughput/feed. Once the system has matured, we will shut the skimmer down at night by putting the feed pump on the same outlet/timer as the refugium light.

It might be wise to let the light in the ref. come on before the circ. pump in the ref.
This way the plants have time to reabsorb the co2 lost in respiration. This will usually take 1-2 hours. depending on plant mass, size of ref., amount of light during the day.(more light =more respiration).

It would be an interesting experiment. And pretty simple. The difference between the amount of co2 in the ref. at lights off. and lights on. is the amount of co2 the plants respired at night. From there you could figure the amount of o added during the day. You could estimate the amount of photo synthesis, nutrient uptake, and discharge of the plants. This has prob. been done. If anyone has access to results that would be cool.

Thanks Again to all of you!

[ritter6788]

It is easy to forget that life in the wild and even in a captive environment isn't always predictable or perfect. While I am running around with a magnifying glass looking for problems life is passing us by. Learning to keep an emotional balance should be part of the instructional manual for this thing. It would be a huge qualitative boost to just accept a balance to things we can't or should not change.

Peter

I need to make a huge banner with this statement on it and hang it over my tank, (or maybe borrow it for my signature line). Seems like every time I look at my tank I only see the problems and how to solve it rather than enjoying it. Then again, I do sort of enjoy spotting the problems and finding the solutions to them.

[Ketchup]

first of all, neat desk. Mine is a little more functional and is called the wing. I will take a pic and post later tonight if I get a chance. Thank you very much for being a part of this community.

Peter
http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/wing-conference-table.jpeg

Like this? :)

[sfsuphysics]

Heh... I remember they had a show about a couple of "artists" who used scrape airplane parts to make functional items, and that desk was something they made.

[preef40]

There is not much I can say but Wow great work!!

[dainiusiva]

What? No update for 4 days??? There must be something wrong / or something awesome going on...

Which one is it?

[blkhwk]

Yeah things very quiet over there Peter,whats the news??

[Ibixable]

This is such a cool tank.

[nineball]

What? No update for 4 days??? There must be something wrong / or something awesome going on...

Which one is it?

Yeah things very quiet over there Peter,whats the news??

There is a ton going on here. Mr. Wilson and I have spent the last two weeks moving this project forward.....some of those days have been 14 hour days with four or five guys working on the tank or fish room installing and fixing stuff. Frankly we have been too busy to write about it much less post the pictures BUT we will I promise.

Our objective is to complete the tasks that will essentially complete the initial blueprint for the build phase of this project. Our goal is to produce a 'Mid Term Report' that will summarize our experience to date with the build and set the stage for the next part of this project which is going to try and identify the best practices in managing the continuing evolution of the tank and fish room. I believe that the upcoming chapters are the the most exciting and the most beneficial part of this whole project for all of us.

However before I get ahead of myself, we have the lighting to complete with the additional (18) customized LED modules, we have the 130 gal hospital tank with all the ICU assets to present to our thread community as well as further improvements to the three Wilson Bars. Mr. Wilson has been working to bring on the Profilux III ex controller to take on a significant portion of the monitoring and day to day management of this ecosystem. I will be discussing my take on the technology and giving a critical review as to the efficacy of the results.

Oh and we have been busy visiting all of the LFS in the greater Toronto area and buying a considerable amount of product which will be put on display in a relatively short time frame ......... so get lots of rest everyone because we are about to take off!!!!!

Peter and Mr. Wilson

[msr224]

<<<<======== is sitting on the edge of his seat!!!!!!!!!!

[mkbtank]

AWESOME! Cant wait to see :)

[dainiusiva]

Well Peter, i will know from now on, when you guys are silent, something AWESOME is brewing. Thanks again for your generosity in sharing information.

[mr.wilson]

Question: you have a lot of gorgonian corals in your tank, I have tried to keep one of those in my tank without any success? So, I though there were almost impossible to keep in our tank. Could you tell us which species you get and what their requirement to keep them alive? Because there are so gorgeous, I want to get some for my tank if they will ever drive in my tank.

I haven't been on the thread in a few weeks so I wasn't even sure where to start:idea:

The basic guideline for keeping gorgonians are...

1) Never take them out of the water and expose them to air. If they are, shake the bubbles off so the tissue isn't damaged.

2) Try to buy ones with grown polyps as they are photosynthetic. The white or brightly coloured polyp gorgonians are non-photosynthetic.

3) Feed them 50-150 micron food at least twice per day, especially if you are keeping non-photosynthetic varieties.

4) Gorgonians from the Caribbean are a little more hardy than their Indo Pacific cousins.

5) Try not to cover the base with glue or substrate as this stresses the gorgonian.

6) Give them moderate flow, not too strong, not too weak.

7) Orient them in a position where they can readily collect food. In other words, have the food travel through the wide "front" rather than the narrow "side" of it.

8) They are tall so they should be placed in the background.

9) They grow quickly so leave room at the top of the reef for growth.

10) Cut off dead branches to deter algae growth.

[mr.wilson]

Congratulations. So are sending out the cigars or do we have to pick them up?

Is he in the main tank or one of the backroom tanks? If you are keeping him in the main tank and you don't have a long spine urchine you may want to throw a fake one in. They will hide in the spines for protection when young. Or pull the babies and give them a rearing tank.

Believe it or not, I have made fake urchins before. A concrete ball base and some wood skewers is all you need.

[mr.wilson]

friend living in Medellin Colombia and just want to ask how do you sustain the mandarin. Thanks for the advice. By

Feeding the tank phytoplankton assures lots of live copepods and a full food chain. Some people use bloodworms or tubifex/blackworms, but they are too rich in protein and lacking EFAs and amino acids and all the other great stuff they get in live zooplankton.

[mr.wilson]

It is always a huge thrill for me to see my fish pairing and breading. I've never been able to raise the fry myself. It's great though because it's obviously fish behaving naturally! :D And it is a clear indication that your amazing efforts are working! :fish1: :fish2:

It has been over three weeks and the two baby cardinals are doing great. The are eating live baby brine shrimp and now frozen cyclops.

[blkhwk]

Great news guys,cant wait to see the results.
Keep up the hard work.
Rich

[bullitr]

Shawn and Peter
I thought you guys and heading down to LAX wholesaler
They have lot of nice corals there to choose from than LFS.

[mr.wilson]

Mr. Wilson, I dont mean for this post to sound rude, but i'm questioning some of the things you're saying.

By all means, question away. We are all here to learn, myself included.


- There shouldn't be more than one defnition for an algae turf scrubber, it is a system that uses high water flow over a screen and with high light to grow attached filamentous algae as a means of water purification. It's used both commerically and in home aquaria.

I said a refugium is "an algae turf scrubber of sorts"; I should have said, an Algae Turf Scrubber is a form of refugium to be more concise. The refugiums I use are as shallow as an ATS, the water is just as rapid, and the lighting is more intense. The only difference is I use higher form of algae (Chaetomorpha & Gracileria), free-floating without a screen. Refugia are not a new idea, I have a Saltwater Aquarium magazine from 1967 showing a marine tank with a remote refugium full of algae in an adjacent sunroom.


-Hair algae is exactly what should be used on an ATS because it is a fast growing algae that readily takes up nutrients. And although some "bleeding" may occur when you are harvesting the algae, the same thing happens when you trim chaetomorpha, as you pull it out from the sump the water drains out, and detritus that has piled up falls into the tank, so i'm not sure that there is much of a difference there.

Harvesting Chaetomorpha does not require the breaking of the thallus or release of its contents. Conversely, hair algae must be torn to harvest the trays. A better ATS system would be to keep the trimmed algae turf trays in a "hospital tank" for a day or two to repair itself. This will not only limit nutrient leak, but also avoid hair algae from spreading to the display tank.

Macro algae will grow equally as fast as hair algae providing the conditions are right. Chaetomorpha will adequately remove Po4 and No3, so there is no need for other forms of algae.


-You say that "algae release (alleopathic) chemicals into the water that may restrict the growth of invertebrates" although this may be true, chaetomorpha is also an algae so it would be do the same thing. As far as i know alleopathic chemicals are usually released by plants during chemical warfare to outcompete eachother, Having only one type of algae should limit the amount of competition therefor the release of these chemicals should be small.

Walnut trees and many terrestrial plants produce these same competitive agents (secondary metabolites). The Walnut tree doesn't need to have neighbours to exude these chemicals and either does algae in any form. The stress of cutting/tearing hair algae will however cause it to react more competitively. Alternating trays with ones in a hospital tank will minimize this problem.


- Simply using activated carbon in the tank will take out any "yellowing" of the water.

Yes, as will protein skimming, UV, Ozone and water changes. Many ATS proponents recommend discontinuing these filtration methods however. Macro algae will also yellow the water to a certain degree, but as you have mentioned, carbon is more than enough to deal with tannins.


-You also state that vertical ATS are a poor design because the vertical pannels cause the algae to tear off and fall, by using turf algae and having a rough screen you should be able to prevent this from happening as turf algae grows in high flow areas. If the hair algae happens to fall off it shouldn't create a problem, it will just be pushed back into the tank and your herbivors will take care of it.

Importing damaged hair or turf (nuisance) algae into the display tank is never a good idea. Neither of these forms of algae grow above the water level so they have not adapted well to do so in aquaria. Vertical ATS cause salt creep, noise, electrical hazard (lighting), add microbubbles, increase evaporation, use too much vertical space, and require too much maintenance.


-The chetomorphia algae also goes through photosynthesis, and respiration so you'll have the same thing happening. Many people just run a reverse cycle on their refugium/ATS lighting so as to have a steady pH, so why not just do this?

Yes, from a photosynthetic standpoint they are the same.


-I'm not sure how the cheatomorpha leaches nutrients at night, it would still be using what it gained during the day for respiration; the same byproducts would be produced during this as in photosynthesis (with the addition of CO2).

It probably doesn't add up to much, but algae does release some of its trapped nutrients at night. They take up nutrients during the day, and cease this action during the night.

In my opinion, elaborate ATS systems are a reinvention of the refugium wheel. ATS gained moderate attention in the late 80's with Addey's book, but anyone who set one up discontinued after a few months or years. Addey had never kept a marine tank at the time he wrote his book on the subject. The tank he set up at the Smithsonian has never been a success story, despite millions of dollars in resources and over 20 years of hard work. There is a promotion company trying to revive the ATS idea to sell plastic screens, but they are banned from more aquarium forums than I can keep track of. The misinformation and junk science offered by these companies give a viable idea like ARS a bad reputation. Yes ATS can work, but they don't offer anything you can't get with a simple refugium.

[mr.wilson]

just a question, maybe it was covered and I missed it. but do you guys dip the new SPS corals ? if so can you give us more info on this topic Mr. Wilson ?

We use two 10-15 minute bath buckets. Both use saltwater, one with Lugol's Iodine (Tropic Marin brand), and one with Two Little Fishies Revive (pine oil & lemon oil). Take out acro crabs first as they will die in 5-10 minutes.

Peter's tank is still getting the initial stock, but once any tank is properly established (6 months old) all corals should be held in a quarantine system for at least a week to allow the eggs of any parasites to hatch. Use a magnifying glass to get a good look at the coral before adding to the display and exposing your corals. You cannot assume that the LFS has done anything to isolate monti nudibranchs, red bugs, mantis shrimp (we just found one on an acro in the bath bucket this week), and flat worms.

[mr.wilson]

Mr. Wilson - What are the downsides to running a chaeto refugium 24/7?


Algae, like any plant needs light for photosynthesis and must have a dark period for photorespiration. Algae is driven by hormones which can get messed up if there isn't a "day" and "night". The ideal is 16 hours day & 8 hours of darkness. A 24/7 photoperiod often results in slow or non-existent growth rates.

Some people have experimented with an excelerated photoperiod, whereby the refugium gets 10hrs day > 2hrs dark > 10hrs day > 2hrs dark. This squeezes two days into one, but at the cost of stressing the algae. In my opinion a slow and easy natural photoperiod is the way to go.

[mr.wilson]

This is my first post. I would like to say thank you to all of the members of reef central! Great site, wisdom, knowledge, totm,s speak for themselves. You guys have inspired me to do a reef tank! Ive been out of the hobby for 10 years. Im back and its so fun!

In our case, the refugium is fed by the protein skimmer throughput/feed. Once the system has matured, we will shut the skimmer down at night by putting the feed pump on the same outlet/timer as the refugium light.

It might be wise to let the light in the ref. come on before the circ. pump in the ref.
This way the plants have time to reabsorb the co2 lost in respiration. This will usually take 1-2 hours. depending on plant mass, size of ref., amount of light during the day.(more light =more respiration).

It would be an interesting experiment. And pretty simple. The difference between the amount of co2 in the ref. at lights off. and lights on. is the amount of co2 the plants respired at night. From there you could figure the amount of o added during the day. You could estimate the amount of photo synthesis, nutrient uptake, and discharge of the plants. This has prob. been done. If anyone has access to results that would be cool.

Thanks Again to all of you!

You are correct, the lights should be on for a few hours to reach the photosynthetic compensation point. The only argument to having the pump and light come on at the same time (and it is a weak one) is that you can do it with one timer.

I will do some monitoring to see how many nutrients really leak out and see where our resources are best invested. The gas production/consumption rates would also be interesting to know. We have a lot of coral, but it's impossible to tell how much impact (Co2 & O2 production) the corals have in comparison to our ball of Chaeto???

The fishroom makes it hard to put the refugium on a reverse photoperiod, so the nightly shut-off seems to be a good compromise.

[mr.wilson]

http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/wing-conference-table.jpeg

Like this? :)

It would be an honour to be fired at that conference table.

[mr.wilson]

The new larger sumps are in for the two Mars systems, as well as the sump & wet/dry for the new hospital tank.

The new LED lighting from Orphek is on its way. Here is a preview/teaser picture of a 450 gallon reef tank with one 250 watt Giesemann metal halide and one Orphek 120 watt PR 156 LED light with 90 degree lenses.

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/P1040289Large.jpg

[bigrock]

The orphek looks really bright. Is this a different model than they currently offer?
What are the dimensions of that 450 gallon tank?
Thanks

[d3hree]

That is the first picture I have seen of a tank comparing LED to MH ( and not just any MH, a good unit) that makes it look like LEDs might have something to them.

It looks like the fall off with the 90 degree optics is pretty good.

[Spirofucci]

Mr. Wilson, thanks for the more detailed info on the subject of ATS. So basically the Cheeto does the same thing based on the same principles. I have done a lot of reasearch but could never find a decent explanation on the misgivings on Dr. Addey's theory from over 20 years ago.

I attended a conference in Arizona over 20 years ago and the speakers were Addey, Sprung, Blackburn, Thiel and others I can't remember. It was facinating. The cutting edge topics were the same as today, but we have come such a long way!

Anyway, thanks to you and Peter for this thread as it is not just about a beautiful tank build, but as Peter says best practice in the hobby which we are all learning from.

I love the debate/discussion/arguing on all these cutting edge topics.

thanks

mark

[Allmost]

We use two 10-15 minute bath buckets. Both use saltwater, one with Lugol's Iodine (Tropic Marin brand), and one with Two Little Fishies Revive (pine oil & lemon oil). Take out acro crabs first as they will die in 5-10 minutes.

Peter's tank is still getting the initial stock, but once any tank is properly established (6 months old) all corals should be held in a quarantine system for at least a week to allow the eggs of any parasites to hatch. Use a magnifying glass to get a good look at the coral before adding to the display and exposing your corals. You cannot assume that the LFS has done anything to isolate monti nudibranchs, red bugs, mantis shrimp (we just found one on an acro in the bath bucket this week), and flat worms.

thank you :) I will try your method now on :)

great comparison pic from LED to MH!!! if LEDs follow the same growth computers and other technology took, I cant imagine what will be available in a year or so.


thanks again

[bioload]

The new larger sumps are in for the two Mars systems, as well as the sump & wet/dry for the new hospital tank.

The new LED lighting from Orphek is on its way. Here is a preview/teaser picture of a 450 gallon reef tank with one 250 watt Giesemann metal halide and one Orphek 120 watt PR 156 LED light with 90 degree lenses.

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/P1040289Large.jpg

Not familiar with this tank. Is there a writeup? It would appear that there is signicifcantly more growth with the MH?


Edit:

Here is the build thread for that tank with some very nice photos. The owner (Moshe) was skeptical about switching to LED, and you can't blame him with the success rate and select corals he has. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...1436135&page=4

sorry didn't see that one

[mr.wilson]

The orphek looks really bright. Is this a different model than they currently offer?
What are the dimensions of that 450 gallon tank?
Thanks

The dimensions are 84cm x 90cm at the surface, not sure about the depth. It's the same PR 156 we have over our little Mars tanks and the same as the 18 fixtures arriving any day now for the display.

Here is the build thread for that tank with some very nice photos. The owner (Moshe) was skeptical about switching to LED, and you can't blame him with the success rate and select corals he has. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1436135&page=4

[Floyd R Turbo]

This is a truly incredible build. I'm going to add this to my list of "threads with over 5000 posts" to read!!

Someone linked to this thread from an ATS thread, so I wanted to throw in my 2 cents, and ask a few questions...

Sorry for the late response. The ATS issue is a long discussion but I will keep it brief. ATS (algae turf scrubbers) have a bad reputation due to the wide definition and sometimes poor application of the method..

I will agree there are plenty of questionable builds out there. But those usually don't follow the guidelines. And I would have to say that the reputation of the ATS is building up a head of steam, and it will not be going away anytime soon.


What we now call a refugium, is an algae turf scrubber of sorts and they do work well. In my opinion the limiting factor is the great depth at which the algae is allowed to "ball up". The lower levels don't get light and subsequently die off leaving the nutrients they have trapped. A shallow trough (4-6" deep) minimizes shadowing and optimizes growing conditions..

The vertical ATS virtually eliminates the die off factor by lighting from both sides. Lower levels get all the light they need to hold on to the substrate. A shallow stationary trough with water 4-6" deep, even with fast moving water will encouter growth limitations due to the boundary effect, unless is it surged and emptied, as in the AI dump bucket scrubber. This boundary layer issue eliminated with vertical waterfall screen designs.


Turf, hair and cyanobacteria are pest algae and should not be used for an ATS. They can easily find there way into the display, they add yellow pigmented tannins to the water, and they "bleed" when you harvest (cut) them. Nutrients and algae tissue will leak out into your system and cause nuisance algae blooms.

I agree Cyano is not what you want to grow. However GHA and turf are only pest algae in the DT and are fine for use in nutrient export. Any of it that makes it's way to the DT will die off, as the ATS will out-compete it. One study that showed that turf was damaging to corals was based on placing the corals in direct contact or extremely close proximity with the turf. Without that proximity, there was not coral death. The study actually showed the opposite, corals thrived when turf was present nearby.

Cleaning the screen in the tank causes yellowing. This is not done (not recommended, I should say) in the modern ATS method. I have been running my ATS for 6 months and have zero yellowing, if anything, it's clearer. I scrape and rinse in the sink and very, very little finds it's way to the DT. Any nutrients that are exported back to the system due to this are very quickly re-absorbed by the continual growth of the ATS.


Another poor design is vertical panels as the cause the algae to tear and fall off. They also cause salt creep, noise, and odours. Often a light is placed close to the vertical panel with questionable wiring practices.

This all depends on the design. If you built one correctly, it would have none of the issues you list here. The DIYer typically does not care about that, they're willing to trade off.

Mine has almost zero salt creep, the lights are well protected, I have no microbubbles, my evap is about the same as before when I was running filter socks and a skimmer (plus I want more for cooling anyways), and the maintenance is 20 minutes a week.

Noise can be totally eliminated, but sometimes it's a design trade off. Designing a box to protect the lights means a drain which can be noisy, so you cover the box and deaden the noise but lose your evaporative cooling (if you wanted it)


I said a refugium is "an algae turf scrubber of sorts"; I should have said, an Algae Turf Scrubber is a form of refugium to be more concise. The refugiums I use are as shallow as an ATS, the water is just as rapid, and the lighting is more intense. The only difference is I use higher form of algae (Chaetomorpha & Gracileria), free-floating without a screen. Refugia are not a new idea, I have a Saltwater Aquarium magazine from 1967 showing a marine tank with a remote refugium full of algae in an adjacent sunroom.

I prefer to call an ATS a concentrated refugium. The lights are closer and there is no water to penetrate. Or at least, only a fraction of an inch, which maximizes light penetration.

Harvesting Chaetomorpha does not require the breaking of the thallus or release of its contents. Conversely, hair algae must be torn to harvest the trays. A better ATS system would be to keep the trimmed algae turf trays in a "hospital tank" for a day or two to repair itself. This will not only limit nutrient leak, but also avoid hair algae from spreading to the display tank.

Macro algae will grow equally as fast as hair algae providing the conditions are right. Chaetomorpha will adequately remove Po4 and No3, so there is no need for other forms of algae.

Walnut trees and many terrestrial plants produce these same competitive agents (secondary metabolites). The Walnut tree doesn't need to have neighbours to exude these chemicals and either does algae in any form. The stress of cutting/tearing hair algae will however cause it to react more competitively. Alternating trays with ones in a hospital tank will minimize this problem.

These are interesting points, I haven't come across any research indicating cutting/scraping of algae would cause it to react negatively. I haven't noticed any negative effects of repeated screen cleaning on my tank. My experience has been that the ATS screen out-competes any algae that makes it back into the DT, so it is never there.

As for the nutrient exporting capability, some experiments would have to be done to prove the capabilites of the ATS vs Refugium, for right now they're just based on real-world knowledge. The system that filters a 100 gallon tank can handle a massive bio-load, and several have reported no detrimental effect when feeding 7 or 8 cubes of food per day. Until I started reading about people running ATSs, I never heard of anyone feeding that much without having multiple pieces of equipment to export the excess, and still needing to do large PWCs.


Importing damaged hair or turf (nuisance) algae into the display tank is never a good idea. Neither of these forms of algae grow above the water level so they have not adapted well to do so in aquaria.

About the algae having not adapted, I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify this?


There is a promotion company trying to revive the ATS idea to sell plastic screens, but they are banned from more aquarium forums than I can keep track of. The misinformation and junk science offered by these companies give a viable idea like ARS a bad reputation. Yes ATS can work, but they don't offer anything you can't get with a simple refugium.

If you're talking about Santa Monica, yeah he's banned from many sites. But that doesn't mean the information he finds and posts is not credible. If you really take the time to read everything that he references, you'll find that it is not junk science at all. In fact, most of the information he references is from credible sources, and actually disproves most of what is accepted in the aquarium industry today as fact. And that is a very hard pill for many to swallow. He isn't afraid to confront issues that are wholly accepted as fact and disprove them, and people get all riled up and then the attitudes start flying around. So he gets banned. I still have yet to see someone truly prove any of his points to be blatantly wrong.

[mr.wilson]

This is a truly incredible build. I'm going to add this to my list of "threads with over 5000 posts" to read!!

Someone linked to this thread from an ATS thread, so I wanted to throw in my 2 cents, and ask a few questions...



I will agree there are plenty of questionable builds out there. But those usually don't follow the guidelines. And I would have to say that the reputation of the ATS is building up a head of steam, and it will not be going away anytime soon.




The vertical ATS virtually eliminates the die off factor by lighting from both sides. Lower levels get all the light they need to hold on to the substrate. A shallow stationary trough with water 4-6" deep, even with fast moving water will encouter growth limitations due to the boundary effect, unless is it surged and emptied, as in the AI dump bucket scrubber. This boundary layer issue eliminated with vertical waterfall screen designs.




I agree Cyano is not what you want to grow. However GHA and turf are only pest algae in the DT and are fine for use in nutrient export. Any of it that makes it's way to the DT will die off, as the ATS will out-compete it. One study that showed that turf was damaging to corals was based on placing the corals in direct contact or extremely close proximity with the turf. Without that proximity, there was not coral death. The study actually showed the opposite, corals thrived when turf was present nearby.

Cleaning the screen in the tank causes yellowing. This is not done (not recommended, I should say) in the modern ATS method. I have been running my ATS for 6 months and have zero yellowing, if anything, it's clearer. I scrape and rinse in the sink and very, very little finds it's way to the DT. Any nutrients that are exported back to the system due to this are very quickly re-absorbed by the continual growth of the ATS.




This all depends on the design. If you built one correctly, it would have none of the issues you list here. The DIYer typically does not care about that, they're willing to trade off.

Mine has almost zero salt creep, the lights are well protected, I have no microbubbles, my evap is about the same as before when I was running filter socks and a skimmer (plus I want more for cooling anyways), and the maintenance is 20 minutes a week.

Noise can be totally eliminated, but sometimes it's a design trade off. Designing a box to protect the lights means a drain which can be noisy, so you cover the box and deaden the noise but lose your evaporative cooling (if you wanted it)




I prefer to call an ATS a concentrated refugium. The lights are closer and there is no water to penetrate. Or at least, only a fraction of an inch, which maximizes light penetration.





These are interesting points, I haven't come across any research indicating cutting/scraping of algae would cause it to react negatively. I haven't noticed any negative effects of repeated screen cleaning on my tank. My experience has been that the ATS screen out-competes any algae that makes it back into the DT, so it is never there.

As for the nutrient exporting capability, some experiments would have to be done to prove the capabilites of the ATS vs Refugium, for right now they're just based on real-world knowledge. The system that filters a 100 gallon tank can handle a massive bio-load, and several have reported no detrimental effect when feeding 7 or 8 cubes of food per day. Until I started reading about people running ATSs, I never heard of anyone feeding that much without having multiple pieces of equipment to export the excess, and still needing to do large PWCs.




About the algae having not adapted, I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify this?




If you're talking about Santa Monica, yeah he's banned from many sites. But that doesn't mean the information he finds and posts is not credible. If you really take the time to read everything that he references, you'll find that it is not junk science at all. In fact, most of the information he references is from credible sources, and actually disproves most of what is accepted in the aquarium industry today as fact. And that is a very hard pill for many to swallow. He isn't afraid to confront issues that are wholly accepted as fact and disprove them, and people get all riled up and then the attitudes start flying around. So he gets banned. I still have yet to see someone truly prove any of his points to be blatantly wrong.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said, with exception to Santa Monica:hammer: I'm not adamantly against ATS, I just don't see what it offers that a refugium doesn't.

I would like to read more on the subject if you have a credible source. Unfortunately, 99% of the success stories are from inexperienced aquarists based on short term trials, and in some cases the reports are entirely fabricated marketing. I don't think we are going off topic if you post a summary of the ideal ATS system and I would be happy to discuss it without overtly picking it apart. You never know, I may try one. In all fairness, I haven't tried the method in over 15 years, and I agree a lot has changed.

There are all kinds of ways to successfully run a reef tank. There are people who swear by just water changes, live rock and good flow, and others who love their under gravel filter. I certainly can't discount their success or happiness with their methods.

[mr.wilson]

Not familiar with this tank. Is there a writeup? It would appear that there is signicifcantly more growth with the MH?

The LED was put over the tank for comparison purposes only. The manufacturer recommended 5 fixtures, but Moshe was thinking 6 to get full coverage. He wanted the fixtures 12" above the tank for aesthetics, but LED needs some height to get coverage. That is one of our problems, we only have about 18" max height above the tank due to a low ceiling and ventilation duct.

[mr.wilson]

That is the first picture I have seen of a tank comparing LED to MH ( and not just any MH, a good unit) that makes it look like LEDs might have something to them.

It looks like the fall off with the 90 degree optics is pretty good.

Yes, I really like the Giesemann bulbs and fixtures, but you get a lot more bang for the buck with Aqua-Medic MHL.

One of the obvious limiting factors with LED is coverage/spread. Most fixtures use Cree emitters which need a concentrated lens (40-70˚) to get the PAR numbers we need.

I don't want to sound like a commercial, but the Orphek light is the only LED that has its own proprietary emitter designed for reef aquariums rather than task lighting. At just 2 watts it runs a little cooler than traditional 3 watt chips. The colour temperature is 16,000K for the white LED so it isn't a yellowish 6,000K white, drowned out with blue. They use 60% white and 40% blue (450-460nm) LEDs, rather than a one white, one blue, one royal blue mix which gives you the dim look we are used to seeing with LED.

I tried some 120˚ optics but they seemed to lose too much intensity for the coverage gained. It might be worth mixing some 120˚ optics in, perhaps around the edges?

The best evaluation of reef lighting is the PUR value as this represents the full spectrum available. The Orphek cuts back on the (520-630?) green light that the human eye recognizes as "bright" and nuisance algae recognizes as "home". LED lights engineered for task lighting (human use) have a lot of green light. Drowning the green/yellow out with blue is an inefficient way to go about lighting a reef tank. Plasma lighting is a prime example of this.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I agree with pretty much everything you have said, with exception to Santa Monica:hammer: I'm not adamantly against ATS, I just don't see what it offers that a refugium doesn't.

I would like to read more on the subject if you have a credible source. Unfortunately, 99% of the success stories are from inexperienced aquarists based on short term trials, and in some cases the reports are entirely fabricated marketing. I don't think we are going off topic if you post a summary of the ideal ATS system and I would be happy to discuss it without overtly picking it apart. You never know, I may try one. In all fairness, I haven't tried the method in over 15 years, and I agree a lot has changed.

There are all kinds of ways to successfully run a reef tank. There are people who swear by just water changes, live rock and good flow, and others who love their under gravel filter. I certainly can't discount their success or happiness with their methods.

I would be happy to do that. I was a little worried about being viewed as a threadjacker when posting, especially since I am only to about page 10/post 500 in this thread, mainly just skimming for the pics that make your jaw drop!!

It might be a while, I have a busy weekend and the next few weeks are rough, but I would certainly like to hear your opinions and views.

I look forward to reading through the rest of this thread also.

[bmco]

The new larger sumps are in for the two Mars systems, as well as the sump & wet/dry for the new hospital tank.

The new LED lighting from Orphek is on its way. Here is a preview/teaser picture of a 450 gallon reef tank with one 250 watt Giesemann metal halide and one Orphek 120 watt PR 156 LED light with 90 degree lenses.

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/P1040289Large.jpg


I have to correct you Mr Wilson. This is just a test I made to compare with a 400 Watts metal halide(Giessman), not 250 watts !!

I must say I was very surprised and impressed!

I can show you 3 Orphek fixtures on the left side (370 watts) compared to 6X54W t5 + 400w metal halide (Total of 770 Watts) on the right side.
Sorry for the bad picture but the light intensity is very high and I couldn't balance good enough the exposure to it.


http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh295/bmco/0311/P1040296Medium.jpg

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh295/bmco/0311/P1040300Medium.jpg

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh295/bmco/0311/P1040303Medium.jpg

[biecacka]

those led lights look amazing! did you end up going w 3 fixtures over each 1/2 of the tank for a total of 6 fixtures?
corey

[menta]

I really wonder how these LEDs are going to be look like after ~3 years.

[firechild]

Originally posted by mr.wilson
The best evaluation of reef lighting is the PUR value as this represents the full spectrum available. The Orphek cuts back on the (520-630?) green light that the human eye recognizes as "bright" and nuisance algae recognizes as "home".

Basic science would very much disagree with you. Green algae (which includes most nuisance algae) reflects green light and is therefore green light is the LEAST likely to promote growth of green algae.

[chingchai]

Peter. Where are you?
How is your baby Cardinals?

[mr.wilson]

I would be happy to do that. I was a little worried about being viewed as a threadjacker when posting, especially since I am only to about page 10/post 500 in this thread, mainly just skimming for the pics that make your jaw drop!!

It might be a while, I have a busy weekend and the next few weeks are rough, but I would certainly like to hear your opinions and views.

I look forward to reading through the rest of this thread also.

Information is always welcome and seldom off-topic in this thread. As long as it isn't a Santa Monica copy & paste it will be more than welcome.

[mr.wilson]

Peter. Where are you?
How is your baby Cardinals?

He's probably in his vault counting gold bars again.

The two cardinals are growing nicely. They have been swimming in live baby brine shrimp and are now eating frozen cyclops. We will post some updated teenage pics. We need to keep breeding fish to justify the ones we lost to our giant crab we found in the display. Jamie set up a glass to trap him. Stay tuned for pics.

[mr.wilson]

Basic science would very much disagree with you. Green algae (which includes most nuisance algae) reflects green light and is therefore green light is the LEAST likely to promote growth of green algae.

We are only concerned about blue-green algae on the glass, now known as cyanobacteria. I'll look up some references for it growing faster in higher nanometer (520-630nm) light.

[mr.wilson]

I really wonder how these LEDs are going to be look like after ~3 years.

With the rate at which technology is advancing, Peter's new LED lights will be sitting on a shelf in the garage in three years:lol2: The new generation will run on wind power and follow the path of the sun.

[mr.wilson]

those led lights look amazing! did you end up going w 3 fixtures over each 1/2 of the tank for a total of 6 fixtures?
corey

Yes, I hear he went with six LED fixtures but he is switching them slowly to acclimate the corals and help him sleep at night.

[mr.wilson]

I stand corrected, 400 watt MHl not 250 watt. I should have noticed the large fixture size.

We tried a 400 watt Aqua-Medic MHL with 13,000K AM mogul bulb. The light was bright and coverage was good, but it was very white. Personally, I like white light. We could have gone with 400 watt 13,000K and supplemented with LED on the outer sides, but I'm happy with what we have... until an LED comes out that can replace our centre MHL fixtures.

Once the LED lights are up, we will limit the hours of MHL lighting to maybe 5-6 hours per day. This will cut back our energy consumption and give a more realistic intensity shift throughout the day.

[nineball]

Peter. Where are you?
How is your baby Cardinals?

Hi Chingchai, the baby cardinals are doing great!!!! I will post a pic later today. Yesterday we found a very large crab almost the size of my fist which we believe explains the mystery of the missing fish. I am trying to trap it with two tall glasses angled towards his cave. each glass has a bundle of large shrimp. So far no luck but sooner or later we will get him. When we get him we are going to give him his very own tank in one of the wilson bars in the fish room next to the scorpion fish on one side and the lion fish on the other. That should make an honest crab out of him!!!

I'm curious Chingchai, did you feel the earthquake and were you anywhere near your tank when it happened?

Peter

[mr.wilson]

Basic science would very much disagree with you. Green algae (which includes most nuisance algae) reflects green light and is therefore green light is the LEAST likely to promote growth of green algae.

There is an overly complex description here...
http://books.google.ca/books?id=olCJ3KmhWGwC&pg=PA417&lpg=PA417&dq=what+spectrum+of+light+causes+blue+green+algae&source=bl&ots=QwLr_LKuqL&sig=D3jEfIireEhkuWwKY4Q_jpY75Vc&hl=en&ei=AgCOTfvuC8GgtweArOi0DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB0Q6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=what%20spectrum%20of%20light%20causes%20blue%20green%20algae&f=false

... and an overly simplified explanation here...
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diatomandslimemicroalgae/a/redslimealgae.htm

[dahenley]

Basic science would very much disagree with you. Green algae (which includes most nuisance algae) reflects green light and is therefore green light is the LEAST likely to promote growth of green algae.

i could have swore that science says that white reflects all light, black absorbs all light, and the colors you see are ones that are only absorbed by the object and the rest of the colors are reflected.

but its been a few years since science class.

[nineball]

There is an overly complex description here...
http://books.google.ca/books?id=olCJ3KmhWGwC&pg=PA417&lpg=PA417&dq=what+spectrum+of+light+causes+blue+green+algae&source=bl&ots=QwLr_LKuqL&sig=D3jEfIireEhkuWwKY4Q_jpY75Vc&hl=en&ei=AgCOTfvuC8GgtweArOi0DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB0Q6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=what%20spectrum%20of%20light%20causes%20blue%20green%20algae&f=false

... and an overly simplified explanation here...
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diatomandslimemicroalgae/a/redslimealgae.htm

Mr. Wilson, I am not sure which area of advanced science I would require a post doctoral understanding to properly interpret your overly complex reference but I am no closer to understanding the issue now I'm afraid than when the subject was raised in the first place.

all that to say I am lost...........which as you know is an incredibly common feature in my perceptual landscape!!!!!!

Peter

[d3hree]

i could have swore that science says that white reflects all light, black absorbs all light, and the colors you see are ones that are only absorbed by the object and the rest of the colors are reflected.

but its been a few years since science class.

I believe that the colours we see are the ones reflected by the objects. This is why if you wear a red jumper the underside of your chin is tinted red as the red light is bounced off of the jumper.

[mr.wilson]

I believe that the colours we see are the ones reflected by the objects. This is why if you wear a red jumper the underside of your chin is tinted red as the red light is bounced off of the jumper.

Oh good, I thought it was the whiskey that was giving me the red nose:beer:

[bboudreaux]

I want to take a moment for an apology to the folks who may have PM'd me and I may have been late in responding or failed to respond. I'm not used to the multi channels of communication on the forum and my time in front of the keyboard is sporadic at best for the moment. The best place for continuity is the thread itself for sure and the PM may be not as certain for a quick turnaround. remind me in the forum you have PM'd me and I'll be guaranteed to check it out.

Also I want to make an observation regarding the 'climate' in this thread from the beginning. You guy's and gal's have been incredible...........stand up and take a bow! I can't believe how positive and constructive this experience has been for me and my team. As most of you know, the tendency in this place is sometimes driven by individuals ( I forget the correct term ) who scoot through just stirring up unnecessary debate for the sake of argument. This hasn't happened here and I can honestly say I haven't encountered anyone I wouldn't gladly invite into my home for a tank tour from the beginning.

To a fault I want to protect this environment and this community from any deviant behaviour. I am asking waaaaaay before it happens that if the activity becomes uncomfortable let the Mods look after it......don't bite or play with them. This thread is important to me as I am hoping that 'our tank' we produce is something RC and the members of this thread can be very proud of. Make no mistake, this is our tank, I may be paying for it but you guys are living and caring for it for sure. I have HUGE blind spots that can only be helped and corrected by the capable folks I have met in this forum environment. Lets make this thread a center of excellence and best practices when it comes to large tank dialogs.

For the folks who have been hiding behind the curtains just watching please feel free to step out and say hi. Its the best way to truly feel like a card carrying member of this thread. At some point in the future membership in this thread will have its privileges. AND the value of those privileges???? PRICELESS!!!!

Thanks everyone.

Peter
i would just like to say that i'm officially addicted to this thread and i'm only on page 17 i think. at this point i'm not really sure where this thread ends up, which i'm sure most of yall do by now(sorry louisiana boy here), but i'm quite sure it will be amazing. in life i have always believed that no one thing or person can be truly the greatest. there always has to be something better. will peter sir you have me convinced that there could only be an equal to your tank never better, and remember i'm only on page 17. please don't feel the need to respond to this post i just wanted to let you know that you have once again affected someones life for the good. i would also like to say that i am in awe how a man of your obvious stature in life can be so down to earth as to try and get back to every person this thread. i'm sure you are an exceptional human being. thanks again for giving me something to read again.

Brent

[dave.m]

i could have swore that science says that white reflects all light, black absorbs all light, and the colors you see are ones that are only absorbed by the object and the rest of the colors are reflected.
but its been a few years since science class.
If I may, I would like to point out a distinction that seems to be getting lost.

From Susan E. Douglas, A. W. D. Larkum, John A. Raven in Photosynthesis in algae
Green light causes the highest photosynthetic rates in these organisms because it is absorbed mainly by the phycobilins of the antenna of Photosystem II and transferred efficiently to both photosynthetic reaction centers.

Yes, the colours we see are those that are reflected by an object, but that was not, I think, mr.wilson's point. What he tried to show in his references is that various algae and cyanobacteria are known to grow more rapidly within certain ranges of colour of light.

Dave.M

[chingchai]

Hi Chingchai, the baby cardinals are doing great!!!! I will post a pic later today. Yesterday we found a very large crab almost the size of my fist which we believe explains the mystery of the missing fish. I am trying to trap it with two tall glasses angled towards his cave. each glass has a bundle of large shrimp. So far no luck but sooner or later we will get him. When we get him we are going to give him his very own tank in one of the wilson bars in the fish room next to the scorpion fish on one side and the lion fish on the other. That should make an honest crab out of him!!!

I'm curious Chingchai, did you feel the earthquake and were you anywhere near your tank when it happened?

Peter

I also have big crab in my tank as well.
But I can't trap them out.
If you have a trick, please post some pictures for us.

The earthquake:
No, I didn't feel it because it is quite far away from Bangkok.

[mr.wilson]

If I may, I would like to point out a distinction that seems to be getting lost.

From Susan E. Douglas, A. W. D. Larkum, John A. Raven in Photosynthesis in algae
Green light causes the highest photosynthetic rates in these organisms because it is absorbed mainly by the phycobilins of the antenna of Photosystem II and transferred efficiently to both photosynthetic reaction centers.

Yes, the colours we see are those that are reflected by an object, but that was not, I think, mr.wilson's point. What he tried to show in his references is that various algae and cyanobacteria are known to grow more rapidly within certain ranges of colour of light.

Dave.M

What he said.

[z@pp]

Hi all,
I think it is time that I also come out of the closet. I have been amazed with this thread all since the beginning and it is one big learning journey for me. Like most of you I have almost no experience and I only have a 80liter nano since 1 year, but I can assure you that I will not go to bed without my daily dose of the thread!
Keep up the good work and I´ll be lurking like I have been in the background!
Regards,
René

[nineball]

i would just like to say that i'm officially addicted to this thread and i'm only on page 17 i think. at this point i'm not really sure where this thread ends up, which i'm sure most of yall do by now(sorry louisiana boy here), but i'm quite sure it will be amazing. in life i have always believed that no one thing or person can be truly the greatest. there always has to be something better. will peter sir you have me convinced that there could only be an equal to your tank never better, and remember i'm only on page 17. please don't feel the need to respond to this post i just wanted to let you know that you have once again affected someones life for the good. i would also like to say that i am in awe how a man of your obvious stature in life can be so down to earth as to try and get back to every person this thread. i'm sure you are an exceptional human being. thanks again for giving me something to read again.

Brent

With this post I think I am going to have to start up a group home for those addicted to this thread. Just to be clear, each person will have their own room with their own tank! I wonder how many rooms I'm going to need.

Thank you for commenting Brent, and welcome to our addiction. Life will never be the same again or will it..............stay tuned theres a lot more in the wind coming your way.

Peter

[nineball]

Hi all,
I think it is time that I also come out of the closet. I have been amazed with this thread all since the beginning and it is one big learning journey for me. Like most of you I have almost no experience and I only have a 80liter nano since 1 year, but I can assure you that I will not go to bed without my daily dose of the thread!
Keep up the good work and I´ll be lurking like I have been in the background!
Regards,
René

Thank you René, if you had come out of the closet sooner you would have probably qualified for a founders room in our new group home. Thanks for your support and a public welcome to our community.

Peter

[nineball]

I also have big crab in my tank as well.
But I can't trap them out.
If you have a trick, please post some pictures for us.

The earthquake:
No, I didn't feel it because it is quite far away from Bangkok.

My research on this forum and on the web suggests the best method is to put some shrimp meat in the bottom of a tall glass. Put the glass near the location of the crab leaning on a rock. Make sure the glass is at 45 degrees. This will allow him to crawl in but unable to crawl out because the glass is too smooth for him to get a grip to get out. But as has been said a number of times, you need patience. I have tried for two nights so far and still no joy but I am determined. When I do catch him I will be happy to post pictures.

Peter

[blkhwk]

Happy hunting Peter and good luck!!

[cloakerpoked]

Peter, I remember when this adventure started months/years ago, and remember subscribing to it. I remember the excitement of the rock finally arriving, and everything that's happened. I stopped reading for a while and stopped in to see what's been going on, and just have to say that the pictures that were posted by Mr. Wilson a few days ago were absolutely stunning! I'm so happy to see your dream become a reality, and your tank is truly an inspiration. Well done my friend!

[Eric the half-bee]

My research on this forum and on the web suggests the best method is to put some shrimp meat in the bottom of a tall glass. Put the glass near the location of the crab leaning on a rock. Make sure the glass is at 45 degrees. This will allow him to crawl in but unable to crawl out because the glass is too smooth for him to get a grip to get out. But as has been said a number of times, you need patience. I have tried for two nights so far and still no joy but I am determined. When I do catch him I will be happy to post pictures.

Peter

Peter, may I suggest a radical technique? I had a stone crab present and introduced a zebra moray. Needless to report, no more crabs. He has never bothered any of his tankmates either.

[nineball]

Peter, I remember when this adventure started months/years ago, and remember subscribing to it. I remember the excitement of the rock finally arriving, and everything that's happened. I stopped reading for a while and stopped in to see what's been going on, and just have to say that the pictures that were posted by Mr. Wilson a few days ago were absolutely stunning! I'm so happy to see your dream become a reality, and your tank is truly an inspiration. Well done my friend!

"adventure" it has been and continues...........thanks very much for the support. This community feels like a true family that continues to bond for all the right reasons.

Thank you, Mr.Wilson and I are proud of the results so far and they are about to get better..........

Peter

[Scej12]

My research on this forum and on the web suggests the best method is to put some shrimp meat in the bottom of a tall glass. Put the glass near the location of the crab leaning on a rock. Make sure the glass is at 45 degrees. This will allow him to crawl in but unable to crawl out because the glass is too smooth for him to get a grip to get out. But as has been said a number of times, you need patience. I have tried for two nights so far and still no joy but I am determined. When I do catch him I will be happy to post pictures.

Peter

HeHe... Good luck fellas... patience is right! I spent the better part of a year trying to figure out what was eating leather corals in one of my accounts... Something was snipping chunks of leathers off and devouring entire pieces bit by bit over the course of a week or two... then moving on the the next.

I finally spotted the culprit hauling an entire stalk of spaghetti leather up into a rocky den at the bottom of about 4 ft of liverock. It was a teddy-bear crab, about the size of a $1 Canadian coin. After trying a couple of off-the-shelf traps that the crab just played with (in and out at will); I resorted to the time honoured technique successfully used in the past to catch a mantis shrimp out of a 450g tank. An inverted top bottle trap... I got a 3.4L fruit juice bottle; cut off the top at the base of the funnel; inverted it; and sewed it back together with some fishing line/silicone etc. It just so happened that the crab took a 2 month hiatus to moult, but it eventually went for the free-bee [bait] leather in the trap, and I found him sitting there with a guilty look on his face the morning I went in to service the tank...!

But just so you know, they don't always go for the bait in a matter of days... sometimes they take weeks to months.... Enjoy the process, as I'm sure you'll experience the same adrenaline rush [I did] when you finally see the bugger in the trap!

[nineball]

HeHe... Good luck fellas... patience is right! I spent the better part of a year trying to figure out what was eating leather corals in one of my accounts... Something was snipping chunks of leathers off and devouring entire pieces bit by bit over the course of a week or two... then moving on the the next.

I finally spotted the culprit hauling an entire stalk of spaghetti leather up into a rocky den at the bottom of about 4 ft of liverock. It was a teddy-bear crab, about the size of a $1 Canadian coin. After trying a couple of off-the-shelf traps that the crab just played with (in and out at will); I resorted to the time honoured technique successfully used in the past to catch a mantis shrimp out of a 450g tank. An inverted top bottle trap... I got a 3.4L fruit juice bottle; cut off the top at the base of the funnel; inverted it; and sewed it back together with some fishing line/silicone etc. It just so happened that the crab took a 2 month hiatus to moult, but it eventually went for the free-bee [bait] leather in the trap, and I found him sitting there with a guilty look on his face the morning I went in to service the tank...!

But just so you know, they don't always go for the bait in a matter of days... sometimes they take weeks to months.... Enjoy the process, as I'm sure you'll experience the same adrenaline rush [I did] when you finally see the bugger in the trap!

Thank you for that. I think I have found just one more practical use for our EPO Epoxy!!!!!

Peter

[Elliott]

Peter: do you have a source for EPO Epoxy? many thanks

[nineball]

Peter: do you have a source for EPO Epoxy? many thanks

PM Mr. Wilson......I believe he has the info you want.

Peter

[Scej12]

Thank you for that. I think I have found just one more practical use for our EPO Epoxy!!!!!

Peter

LOL. Believe me when I say that when I was going through my dilemma, more than a couple of people suggested that I glue the bugger into his den... however I really wanted to pull the little guy out alive...:spin1:

[mr.wilson]

HeHe... Good luck fellas... patience is right! I spent the better part of a year trying to figure out what was eating leather corals in one of my accounts... Something was snipping chunks of leathers off and devouring entire pieces bit by bit over the course of a week or two... then moving on the the next.

I finally spotted the culprit hauling an entire stalk of spaghetti leather up into a rocky den at the bottom of about 4 ft of liverock. It was a teddy-bear crab, about the size of a $1 Canadian coin. After trying a couple of off-the-shelf traps that the crab just played with (in and out at will); I resorted to the time honoured technique successfully used in the past to catch a mantis shrimp out of a 450g tank. An inverted top bottle trap... I got a 3.4L fruit juice bottle; cut off the top at the base of the funnel; inverted it; and sewed it back together with some fishing line/silicone etc. It just so happened that the crab took a 2 month hiatus to moult, but it eventually went for the free-bee [bait] leather in the trap, and I found him sitting there with a guilty look on his face the morning I went in to service the tank...!

But just so you know, they don't always go for the bait in a matter of days... sometimes they take weeks to months.... Enjoy the process, as I'm sure you'll experience the same adrenaline rush [I did] when you finally see the bugger in the trap!

I went ahead and built a trap as per your instructions. If it works we will have him bronzed and send him to you:)

edit* Okay, after reading your last post, we will have him humanely gilded instead of bronzed.

[Scej12]

I went ahead and built a trap as per your instructions. If it works we will have him bronzed and send him to you:)

edit* Okay, after reading your last post, we will have him humanely gilded instead of bronzed.

Okay now that you've jerked my conscience, here's the rest of the story... After I caught teddy, I gave him to one of my friends who continued to feed it leather pcs for a while; but that only lasted a couple of months before he decided to throw the little bugger into some alcohol... who knows perhaps he's already gone for bronzing...!!

Good luck, hopefully yours doesn't stretch it out for the 8 weeks that mine did.

SJ

[bpoore89]

I just spent the entire morning reading this thread from start to finish. I have to say this is an incredible project. You have a beautiful home and an amazing tank. Congratulations and I know a lot of us aspire to be where you are some day

[Bayliner]

Well I think I almost got to meet Mr. Nineball in person.

I was at SeaUMarine on Friday and I saw this person talking to the owner that looked familiar, but I couldn't place it... Then it hit me, I remembered from the pictures way back in this post at the pool table... Its Peter....

I didn't want to interrupt the conversation so I thought I would wait to go over and introduce myself and say Hi. Minutes later I turned around and he was gone.....

Maybe next time, I'll keep an eye out for the Bentley in the parking lots of our LFS... :rollface:

Cam

It was a teddy-bear crab, about the size of a $1 Canadian coin.

By the way if you do end up with a teddy bear crab, you know the wife is going to want to keep it... :fun4:

:

[kharmaguru]

SeaUMarine has pretty much become the goto in the East End. Pristine tanks ( it's skimmer central in there!), and a "real" selection. Long way to travel from Oakville, hope Peter came away with something...

[mr.wilson]

Anyone in the Toronto area should be going to the Charles Delbeek presentation this Saturday (2-4). He will be talking about the new 200,000 gallon reef at the Steinhart Aquarium where he is a senior curator. You can find the details for this must see event at mastcanada.org

Charles is a very knowledgeable, entertaining and charismatic speaker. His friend and former coworker (Waikiki Aquarium) Bruce Carlson presented an excellent talk about his 165,000 gallon reef exhibit at the Atlanta Aquarium a couple years ago for the MAST club. There is also a dinner after. You will find Peter & I at the bar:) Stop by and say hey.

[nineball]

Mr. Wilson.....

Mars one.........check email.

Peter

[Reefski's]

charles is a great speaker and all around nice guy. he was gracious enough when he was still at the Waikiki Aquarium to give us a behind the scenes tour which was incredible. the Waikiki aquarium has a magnificent 5000 gallon reef tank which has the oldest clams in captivity. they are massive. the tank has a large skylight in addition to several thousands watts of lighting.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/waikiki-tank-clams-anemones-1.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/waikiki-anemones-clams-most-1.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/waikiki-beam-skylight-1.jpg

in this one he is telling us about the trouble they had with the tank and the giant beam.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/reefski/waikiki-reef-tank-top-view-1.jpg

along with Julian Sprung he wrote the must have books, The Reef Aquarium, there are three in the series.

[7duster3]

I just spent the better part of my morning reading through this thread. All i can say is WOW! This is truly an inspiration to me and I'm sure to everyone. What a great build and a beautiful home.

[gts69]

mate there aint much i can say that hasn't already been said but congrats on the setup looks amazing that and your house haha hope i could have something even half as good as this one day

[nineball]

Well I think I almost got to meet Mr. Nineball in person.

I was at SeaUMarine on Friday and I saw this person talking to the owner that looked familiar, but I couldn't place it... Then it hit me, I remembered from the pictures way back in this post at the pool table... Its Peter....

I didn't want to interrupt the conversation so I thought I would wait to go over and introduce myself and say Hi. Minutes later I turned around and he was gone.....

Maybe next time, I'll keep an eye out for the Bentley in the parking lots of our LFS... :rollface:

Cam





By the way if you do end up with a teddy bear crab, you know the wife is going to want to keep it... :fun4:

:
Next time Cam don't hesitate to say Hi. I always enjoy meeting members of this community. If your timing is good you might even get to sit in the Bentley.

Peter

[nineball]

I just spent the better part of my morning reading through this thread. All i can say is WOW! This is truly an inspiration to me and I'm sure to everyone. What a great build and a beautiful home.

mate there aint much i can say that hasn't already been said but congrats on the setup looks amazing that and your house haha hope i could have something even half as good as this one day

Thank you both and welcome to the community.

Peter

[willandmelsreef]

who did you get your tank from...i have a $50.000 budget and want to get a good tank..thought about glass cages, but don't know

[Robb in Austin]

ATM

http://www.acrylicaquariums.com/

[nineball]

ATM

http://www.acrylicaquariums.com/

who did you get your tank from...i have a $50.000 budget and want to get a good tank..thought about glass cages, but don't know

Thanks for the link.....I can't say enough about ATM but just make sure you really feel good about whoever you go through to get it. You absolutely want to protect your investment with a relationship with someone of Mr. Wilson's caliber to assist in vetting the design elements and assuring you that every detail, no matter how subtle, is correct. Good Luck and make sure that you post the announcement for your build here when you are ready......

Peter

[swissgaurd]

Anyone in the Toronto area should be going to the Charles Delbeek presentation this Saturday (2-4). He will be talking about the new 200,000 gallon reef at the Steinhart Aquarium where he is a senior curator. You can find the details for this must see event at mastcanada.org

Charles is a very knowledgeable, entertaining and charismatic speaker. His friend and former coworker (Waikiki Aquarium) Bruce Carlson presented an excellent talk about his 165,000 gallon reef exhibit at the Atlanta Aquarium a couple years ago for the MAST club. There is also a dinner after. You will find Peter & I at the bar:) Stop by and say hey.

thanks for the reminder shawn
ill be there

vic

[Scej12]

Anyone in the Toronto area should be going to the Charles Delbeek presentation this Saturday (2-4). He will be talking about the new 200,000 gallon reef at the Steinhart Aquarium where he is a senior curator. You can find the details for this must see event at mastcanada.org

Charles is a very knowledgeable, entertaining and charismatic speaker. His friend and former coworker (Waikiki Aquarium) Bruce Carlson presented an excellent talk about his 165,000 gallon reef exhibit at the Atlanta Aquarium a couple years ago for the MAST club. There is also a dinner after. You will find Peter & I at the bar:) Stop by and say hey.

Thanks for that Shawn!! I had no idea this was happening. I noticed that dinner bookings are now closed on the MAST site. Must have sold out fast!! I'll still try to attend the presentation. Perhaps I can finally get the chance to meet you good folks in person (although I think we might have crossed paths at a Construct Show a number of years back; not sure; terrible memory as well!) Anyway - hopefully I'll see you guys this weekend.

Regards,

Sheldon

[dave.m]

I was able to book both dinner & show this afternoon, so maybe you can give somebody at MAST a call to see if they can squeeze you in.

Dave.M

[Scej12]

I was able to book both dinner & show this afternoon, so maybe you can give somebody at MAST a call to see if they can squeeze you in.

Dave.M

Thanks Dave!

I just used the contact info on the MAST website; waiting for a response/call back...

One way or the other, I look forward to meeting all of you tomorrow! I've been quietly lurking around the Toronto aquarium industry for a few years now.... It's finally time for me to come out of the closet and meet all of the folks I've been trading posts with lately.

See you tomorrow!

Sheldon

[ti-christ]

Hi Peter,

Last night, I had a nightmare. I have dreamed that all your corals were dying one after the other within 24H!!! And you end up with a small 90gallons tank with the remaining corals that they were still alive...:( (This has happened to me 2 years ago in my 180g). When I woke up, I was looking like that : :hmm4:.

So, please put some pictures for my peace of mind!!!!:lolspin:

[nuccadoc]

How's the crab-hunting going? Catch that bugger yet?

[Allmost]

I was able to book both dinner & show this afternoon, so maybe you can give somebody at MAST a call to see if they can squeeze you in.

Dave.M

is it formal ? :P (asks my GF)

after party at Peters Reef ? :P hahaha jokes.

cant wait for more pics :)

[dave.m]

is it formal ?
Well, I promise not to go commando this time.

Dave.M

[Bax]

Well, I promise not to go commando this time.

Dave.M

OK Dave, that's just scary! :hmm3: :spin2:

[azreefgeek]

makes my 100 gallon in wall look like a nano...

[vaporize]

Hello Peter & Shawn,

Sorry to dig up old post but it doesn't seem like many has commented on this design. Sorry to say that it is totally not-doable.

You will have cross contamination so fast that it will deplete the "previous food source" fast. If you wanted to use such a system, they cannot be "overflowing" but need to have physical separation (distance) and move the 'food' tank-to-tank by dosing pumps. Also the previous food system has to be 3-5X larger in volume than the organisms they are feeding (maybe except the last two stage). On average 1L of rotifer can eat 5L of phyto (or more depending on density, so makes it tough to just culture to feed the reef, let alone a reef that size.


http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/CultureSystem.jpg

[Scej12]

Hey Peter; Shawn; Dave and the rest of the MAST members I met today - it was a great pleasure to finally meet all of you. Quite a community of reef enthusiasts we have here in Toronto, and beyond! Charles Delbeek was a great presenter, and I for one thoroughly enjoyed the info he provided.

Thanks again Mr. Wilson for posting the note - if not for that I would have certainly missed another great event organized by MAST!

and Peter/Shawn - don't forget to let me know when would be a convenient time to see youz-guyz creation first hand...!! :D

Regards,

Sheldon

[Padrino]

Peter/Shawn,
Things are really looking awesome. Keep up the good work.

I was trying to look back in the pages for pictures of your fishroom and all its components. I am trying to compile a thread full of fishrooms for people to reference. I definately think yours should be in there.

The link is:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1846238
Hope you can share lots of pictures on that thread,
Rob

[dave.m]

A rather long day with lots of driving. What a surprise to find out the handsome young fellow sitting beside me at dinner was Sheldon. Pleased to meet you. A pleasant time was had by all.

Padrino, more info on the fish room coming up soon.

Dave.M

[nineball]

Peter/Shawn,
Things are really looking awesome. Keep up the good work.

I was trying to look back in the pages for pictures of your fishroom and all its components. I am trying to compile a thread full of fishrooms for people to reference. I definately think yours should be in there.

The link is:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1846238
Hope you can share lots of pictures on that thread,
Rob

Thanks Rob. There will be an update shortly. Most of the fish room equipment has been changed/upgraded, added since the beginning foundation. There has been so much going on of late that I haven't really had the time to communicate all the positive changes Mr. Wilson has introduced. With DaveM's help we hope to bring a lot of that stuff forward. Stay tuned.

Peter

[nineball]

A rather long day with lots of driving. What a surprise to find out the handsome young fellow sitting beside me at dinner was Sheldon. Pleased to meet you. A pleasant time was had by all.

Padrino, more info on the fish room coming up soon.

Dave.M

Good to see you and hear you participate in the seminar yesterday. I am looking forward to getting together with you next week with Mr. Wilson.

Peter

[nineball]

Hey Peter; Shawn; Dave and the rest of the MAST members I met today - it was a great pleasure to finally meet all of you. Quite a community of reef enthusiasts we have here in Toronto, and beyond! Charles Delbeek was a great presenter, and I for one thoroughly enjoyed the info he provided.

Thanks again Mr. Wilson for posting the note - if not for that I would have certainly missed another great event organized by MAST!

and Peter/Shawn - don't forget to let me know when would be a convenient time to see youz-guyz creation first hand...!! :D

Regards,

Sheldon

Sheldon, it was very nice to finally meet you as well. I'm not sure exactly what I expected to meet but it definitely was not you......The Sheldon I met was a very nice fellow and very personable.

In any event, you are welcome to a tour anytime, just pm Mr. Wilson or myself whenever its convenient.

Peter

[Scej12]

A rather long day with lots of driving. What a surprise to find out the handsome young fellow sitting beside me at dinner was Sheldon. Pleased to meet you. A pleasant time was had by all.

Padrino, more info on the fish room coming up soon.

Dave.M

Hey you were the handsome guy at our table!!.. The pleasure was all mine...til now I've been writing to all of you guys in the dark... not knowing who's who....

Sheldon, it was very nice to finally meet you as well. I'm not sure exactly what I expected to meet but it definitely was not you......The Sheldon I met was a very nice fellow and very personable.

In any event, you are welcome to a tour anytime, just pm Mr. Wilson or myself whenever its convenient.

Peter

Peter - I'll certainly follow up when I have some space in the next couple of weeks... I have a pretty dense schedule over the next couple of days.. Nice to finally meet the team.

SJ

[cableguy69846]

Holy crap. This is an amazing build. I love the detail that you go into with all your updates and how you reply to every post on here. I am in awe of the experience that has gotten together on this one. I am a new hobbyist on the salt side. I am getting ready to start a 20 gallon long tank, but am very certain that I will be upgrading more than once in the course of my life. I have skipped around a lot and mostly was looking for pictures, but you can be sure that I will be going back and reading every post and taking plenty of notes. The display is something most of us only dream of and your fish room is better looking then any LFS I have been in. Just wanted to gush about your amazing system, and wanted to thank you for all the knowledge you have now placed at my, and others, fingertips. Keep up the good work, and don't skimp on the details. Let's see if you can make this a 1000 pages jam packed with info. Thank you guys and I look forward to seeing more progress and starting this thread over and reading every letter of it even if it is over my head at the moment.:beer:

Cable

[Chago09]

Hello, sorry for being away so long. Too busy trying to keep the lights on.

Plus I don't need to see pictures of the thread because I just walk in to Peter's house whenever in the area :thumbsup: don't be jelious LOL :lol2:

Tank is looking awesome, any updates on the mangrove wall? I'm curious to see how those parts turned out? I need to go back about 15 pages and start reading to catch up.

[nineball]

Hello, sorry for being away so long. Too busy trying to keep the lights on.

Plus I don't need to see pictures of the thread because I just walk in to Peter's house whenever in the area :thumbsup: don't be jelious LOL :lol2:

Tank is looking awesome, any updates on the mangrove wall? I'm curious to see how those parts turned out? I need to go back about 15 pages and start reading to catch up.

I'll let Mr. Wilson describe the progress with the Mangrove hydroponic wall units but it appears to be working well. There is an update coming. See you soon.

Peter

[Padrino]

I'll let Mr. Wilson describe the progress with the Mangrove hydroponic wall units but it appears to be working well. There is an update coming. See you soon.

Peter

looking forward to this!

[HandOfGod]

We have been following this thread since inception and think it is simply incredible! We have picked up so many innovative ideas here that can be applied to tanks of all sizes. Thank you to Nineball, Mr Wilson, and all of the participants for the wealth of knowledge! :bounce1:

[mr.wilson]

Here are some fishroom shots including our new 130 gallon hospital tank.

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/02eb8264.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/ed6ed6c2.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/205dc779.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/77e9d602.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/b2273cbe.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/f6883084.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/1f0c4abc.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/fe3e583e.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/a51e21ce.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/9a012290.jpg

[canesfan44]

Wow!!! You're fishroom is incredible!

[mr.wilson]

Here are some pics of the new Orphek LEDs. We are getting PAR values of 600 a few inches below the surface, 300 on the substrate at the centre and 250 on the substrate near the glass. We are still running the MHL & T5 but only for part of the day.

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/4ad13b00.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/79e18ff7.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/ecd84a03.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/69d7061d.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/95719e0a.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/51944c85.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/9af8a153.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/c9ac87b2.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/b68a5f79.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/435ce0ef.jpg

[mr.wilson]

Our two Bangai cardinals are a month old and almost ready for the display tank. We have two newly captured fry about the size of a grain of rice and the parents are still breeding. We had a few hundred Reidi sea horses last week but we didn't have rotifers ready to feed them. We will be prepared next time.

Papa bear with mouth full of fry
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/bf73195f.jpg
Little bear at one month old
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/4011c535.jpg
Baby bear a few days old
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/17a1bf67.jpg

[mr.wilson]

Misc. pics...

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/b68896ae.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/27e0d865.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/dbc4d017.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/8b993acf.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/c4ad2590.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/aaece077.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/401f8401.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/1d4bf132.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/29d56249.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/e904860a.jpg

[mr.wilson]

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/837ed853.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/30dc8a5c.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/0f0ac038.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/cf49f818.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/626bd81f.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/31b4dc5b.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/138cfa74.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/618e3736.jpg

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[mr.wilson]

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[nineball]

Well done Mr. Wilson.......

Peter

[mr.wilson]

Well done Mr. Wilson.......

Peter

My pleasure, I will take some close-ups and moonlight shots on thursday, now go to bed!

[syedjilani]

Amazing...... Love your tank..... Very beautiful... :)

[jmurr8484]

:thumbsup:You have the system of the century; hands down.

[killerbee181]

Absolutely amazing. You guys have done a fantastic job. I can't believe how great your tank looks in such a short amount of time! Can't imagine what this tank will look like in a year or 5 years! Good job.
Terry

[CalmSeasQuest]

Spectacular. Congratulations Peter, Shawn et al.

45,000 Lumens of Stray Light Plasma to grow Chaeto and Mangroves :D

[maroun.c]

Love the pics Thanks fos sharing.
I'm interested in the comparison of the LED and MH lighting? Do yo usee any clear difference in the areas lit by MH and those lit by LEDs?
Any comparative PAR values would be appreciated as well as a reminder on which bulbs and ballasts reflectors you're using?
Thanks

[Spirofucci]

The world has been waiting for this.


Thanks from my little part of it.

mark

[Scej12]

Wow! what an update! you boys have been busy - just like we all expected. Beautiful shots Mr. Wilson. The tank has really begun to take shape. Looking great so far!!

SJ

[gypsyboy38]

My pleasure, I will take some close-ups and moonlight shots on thursday, now go to bed!

Mind taking a video of the fish during feeding as well? I'm sure I'm not the only one that would enjoy watching that!

[zaheda]

The tank is looking simply beautifull. I love those engine room pics, some hectic equipment you have playing with.The led lighting on the display tank brings out the colours.

[kharmaguru]

THAT is a coral reef..

[dave.m]

Tremendous transformation! It will be a pleasure documenting all of this.

Dave.M

[mr.wilson]

Spectacular. Congratulations Peter, Shawn et al.

45,000 Lumens of Stray Light Plasma to grow Chaeto and Mangroves :D

The Straylight plasma fixtures don't look sexy even after a 12 pack, but the yellow light is a warm break from all the high Kelvin blue light. The mangroves and chaeto are growing rapidly which makes up for our space limitation (quality rather than quantity). One issue we are having with the refugium is a floating green Cyanobacteria. There is no surface skimmer or movement so we are manually skimming with cups and nets. Part of the problem is the stray bubbles from the RK2, the bigger part is the 510- nm Straylight. I will do some dimming tests and try a 100 watt high bay LED spotlight instead.

The good news is the quality and angle of our new LED lighting on the display has not caused any extra nuisance algae on the walls, rock or substrate. We havent experienced any additional bleaching of newly added corals and the older ones are noticeably coloring up. This is partly to the credit of the quality of light, but largely due to the quantity and new coverage of previously shadowed areas (namely near the glass).

We have added a bit of heat, but no more than we had expected from 1900 watts of LEDs. The Mhl photoperiod has been cut in half so it averages out over the day.

The other lighting issue we are really happy about is being able to angle the lights inward a few degrees to illuminate the sides of corals & rock as well as mounting them up and out of the way for easy access to the tank.

We

[msr224]

Just.................. WOW!!!!!

Nice results. How long have you had the Orpheks installed and what have you seen as a result of installing them?

[mr.wilson]

Love the pics Thanks fos sharing.
I'm interested in the comparison of the LED and MH lighting? Do yo usee any clear difference in the areas lit by MH and those lit by LEDs?
Any comparative PAR values would be appreciated as well as a reminder on which bulbs and ballasts reflectors you're using?
Thanks

We are using Aqua-Medic magnetic ballasts with their small reflector. We don't have room for anything bigger. While large reflectors are great for tanks 3' or wider, I find they cause algae growth on glass, substrate and overflows. They also tend to project too much light into the room for a less dramatic display. Our compact reflectors were giving us 160PAR at the substrate near the glass and 200 at the substrate near the centre. This is pretty uniform coverage for a 30" tall tank with the fixture only 10" above the water. If there was no rock in the tank the coverage would be even more uniform.

We tried the old style Aqua-Medic electronic ballasts, but PAR and lumens were almost 50% lower!!! We havent been able to get our hands on their new improved electronic ballast.

I will do some more lux and PAR testing and post the numbers on a picture of the tank to map it out. I will also post the photoperiod ofeach light. The Mhl look more like natural light with a nice calm shimmer. The LED shimmer is a little faster due to the multiple points of light. When all of the lights are on, it blends nicely with a subtle mix. This was our goal since natural reefs never look homogenous. The 250 watt Mhl alternate between 13,000k Aqua-Medic and 14,000k Phoenix. Most of the usable and visible light from the Mhl is coming from the 13,000k bulbs. We ordered a more blue mix in our LEDs to cancel out some of the white look, but I still find white light to be more natural.

We had a 13,000k 250w mogul fixture on the tank during our testing; I think we could have used this fixture with a heavy blue mix of LED to drown it out, but overall the 250s were still the smart choice.

[mr.wilson]

Just.................. WOW!!!!!

Nice results. How long have you had the Orpheks installed and what have you seen as a result of installing them?

We had a browned out acro in the display that took a bit of a beating from too much flow and a few subsequent falls. We moved it to the Mars system and were shocked to see it turn a beautiful white with bright purple tips. After a month I moved the coral back to the display and positioned it between the LED and the Mhl. After a week it still has the nice tips but the white is browning up with zooxanthellae now. It still looks good.

The overall appearance of the tank, rock, corals and fish is a night and day difference. Peter had no idea how corals fluoresce under blue light. You just don't get the same effect with T5, and it only takes 4 x 2 watt blue LEDs in each fixture to do it. Over a 6' span, that's 20 watts LED vs. 78 watts T5 and again, a world of difference.

[fote03]

Wow! Everything looks great.

[D5HP]

I'm not sure if this was covered or if this is information you'd like to provide but is there a rough estimation of electrical power consumption for the reef or a related cost?

This is just such a remarkable system...the progress in just the past two months is astounding!

How many times a day are you feeding the DT tank fish?

Again, can't say enough about this tank and all your hard work. Also -> great photographs

[mkbtank]

Just Stunning!!!

[Elliott]

:thumbsup: very nice update, thank you, tank is looking spectacular! Do you plan to eventually replace the MH's with LED's?

also, what is your current plan for QT and treatment of coral/fish? what pests have you discovered thus far in the display?

[maroun.c]

Thanks for the Detailed reply.
Looking forward for some comparative PAR readings of MH only, LED only as well as combined...

[auem]

finally it is becoming eye candy...purple algae growth on the rock is amazing...now is the time for some rarest fishes to go to that tank...:beer:

[mr.wilson]

I'm not sure if this was covered or if this is information you'd like to provide but is there a rough estimation of electrical power consumption for the reef or a related cost?

This is just such a remarkable system...the progress in just the past two months is astounding!

How many times a day are you feeding the DT tank fish?

Again, can't say enough about this tank and all your hard work. Also -> great photographs

We haven't done any calculations. A lot of the power is accumulative with all the holding systems and climate control. I will do a breakdown of the display tank only.

[mr.wilson]

finally it is becoming eye candy...purple algae growth on the rock is amazing...now is the time for some rarest fishes to go to that tank...:beer:

The rock was bone white when it went in 7 months ago. The corals have been steadily added over the past three months and have attached and grown well.

[lotusstar]

WOW. So I've been following along with this thread since I saw the picture of the tank hanging from the crane. I was stuck to this thread then. Haven't added much since I haven't had much luck with my own tank over the last 2 years, so don't have much expertise. However I have learned a great deal from this thread, and just wanted to say thanks for all the knowledge passed on to the rest of us. Shared amongst you guys, but those of us without success I say passed on to. The pictures look awesome, it's a beautiful tank. Think I will show my wife the pics of your tank room so I can get her to realize that my minimal tank space could be far greater! hehe. Keep up the amazing work guys. I really love this tank and thread.

[mr.wilson]

Hello Peter & Shawn,

Sorry to dig up old post but it doesn't seem like many has commented on this design. Sorry to say that it is totally not-doable.

You will have cross contamination so fast that it will deplete the "previous food source" fast. If you wanted to use such a system, they cannot be "overflowing" but need to have physical separation (distance) and move the 'food' tank-to-tank by dosing pumps. Also the previous food system has to be 3-5X larger in volume than the organisms they are feeding (maybe except the last two stage). On average 1L of rotifer can eat 5L of phyto (or more depending on density, so makes it tough to just culture to feed the reef, let alone a reef that size.

Thanks for the feedback. This is why I asked the question and posted the drawing. I knew there would be scaling issues. but hoped the cross contamination would be manageable. I need to do some more engineering and experimenting before I build a prototype. What I don't like about dosing pumps is cost, control, and stagnant water in the lines. Perhaps I can build a flush-out line.

[MabuyaQ]

Thanks for the feedback. This is why I asked the question and posted the drawing. I knew there would be scaling issues. but hoped the cross contamination would be manageable. I need to do some more engineering and experimenting before I build a prototype. What I don't like about dosing pumps is cost, control, and stagnant water in the lines. Perhaps I can build a flush-out line.

You could also use airlifts between the different food compartments. Cross contamination is mainly due to human error. With the right protocols and discipline that should not be a problem.
The largest issue would be rotifer contamination in the phyto. A real pain to filter out and still hard to not have the phyto crash afterwards. The rest is not a real big deal and easily filtered out due to size differences if checking these cultures for cross-contamination is a daily routine.

[mr.wilson]

Thanks for all the kind remarks everyone. I'm glad we have been able to share our experience and knowledge. I have kept the thread positive, focusing on the equipment we have been happy with, rather than dwelling on the brands that have been disappointing. One thing I would not like to see come out of this thread is a positive endorsement for these products.

A few people have asked about the acrylic tank manufacturer (ATM). I would like to go on record that I am not satisfied with the build quality and materials of the tank, refugium and original sump/wet-dry. To be fair, this is the only ATM tank, sump and refugium I have seen in person, but I'm, not impressed with any of them. The sump design was very poor with no top frame. It broke before I started on the project. The refugium design is poor and there was no top frame so I had to add an expensive aluminum frame and redesign the drain. The overflow teeth are much too big on the tank, the seams have a lot of void spaces and bubbles, the top and bottom edges aren't polished, and the top frame was built out of a bad pour sheet (1/2" variance in thickness). These seconds are common and usually get melted down into a new sheet.

[DCG1286]

OMG! I think I just destroyed my keyboard after drooling all over it from staring at these pictures ... this is one intense reef tank. I love the collection of fish I see as well!

I'll take a frag of everything :D hahaha

[nebelk]

Amazing build. I only found it about a month ago but decided I must start from the beginning, and now getting caught up it was very much worth the time.

Can you provide any info on the stand for the hospital tank?

[mr.wilson]

:thumbsup: very nice update, thank you, tank is looking spectacular! Do you plan to eventually replace the MH's with LED's?

also, what is your current plan for QT and treatment of coral/fish? what pests have you discovered thus far in the display?

We would like to replace the mhl as soon as we can find similar LEDs. Orphek sent me some samples of their new 100 watt single source (high bay) light yesterday. They should be here this week. I'm just not sure if we can fit them over the tank with our low clearance.

We give all new corals a 15 minute bath in Lugol's iodine then a 15 minute bath in Two Little Fishies Revive. It's hard to identify all the "stuff" at the bottom of the buckets, but I have fount two mantis shrimp so far. If I miss an acro crab, it dies or at least staggers out of the coral within minutes. Now I wish we had bathed the live rock, as we are dealing with a 4" nuisance crab now. We had montipora nudibranchs (flatworms) on one of our smaller monitipora, but we managed to remove them with the coral. As soon as we see a significant problem, we remove the coral to the Mars quarantine system for concentrated feeding and observation.

[[WDT]TardFarmer]

Wow!! Your tank is amazing! I found this thread when I was researching the 24 Inch Orphek Power Reef PR156 LED Light Fixture. I am currently beginning a new build with a 68*30*30 tank. I want to migrate to LED to reduce heat and power usage but of course I want to get enough light to my clams at the bottom of the tank. I am currently thinking of two ortek fixtures, one at each end of the tank and a 400 watt 20k radium in a lumenarc reflector in the middle. It looks like the color and light penetration of the Ortek would be nice, I like a little more blue/purple in my tanks, closer to 20k rather than 14k. Once I had a bit more $$$ I would like to replace the halide with another Ortek. In your opinion is my plan a viable lighting solution? Thanks in advance for any input and again your system is simply amazing!

[mr.wilson]

Amazing build. I only found it about a month ago but decided I must start from the beginning, and now getting caught up it was very much worth the time.

Can you provide any info on the stand for the hospital tank?

You can see it at 8020.net

It's corrosive resistant, versatile, has leveling feet, easy to engineer (deflection calculator), and you don't have to wait six weeks for a welder to make it. If you need to make any changes, it's all modular.

[ti-christ]

:spin3::spin1::fun5::rollface::hmm3::fun4::lolspin::wildone::crazy1::spin2:

Just awesome!

[auem]

The rock was bone white when it went in 7 months ago. The corals have been steadily added over the past three months and have attached and grown well.

two things i want point out...
one is the 'valley' is already started to lose depth due to the growth,though only one picture shows it,need more clear one....
another is, if my memory serves right,you guys were against putting cynarina,tachyphilas in bed as just ornamental...but still you went to the conventional way...

[killerbee181]

Mr. Wilson,
I am in the process of setting up 2 RK2 systems one is the 75 and the other is a 50. What mods have you done to your rk2 skimmer that you would recommend to others with the same style skimmer? Also did you find a fix for the valves for the auto wash systems. Mine leak as well. Also have you been able to eliminate the micro bubbles coming from the skimmer?
Thank you,
Terry

[nineball]

Thanks for all the kind remarks everyone. I'm glad we have been able to share our experience and knowledge. I have kept the thread positive, focusing on the equipment we have been happy with, rather than dwelling on the brands that have been disappointing. One thing I would not like to see come out of this thread is a positive endorsement for these products.

A few people have asked about the acrylic tank manufacturer (ATM). I would like to go on record that I am not satisfied with the build quality and materials of the tank, refugium and original sump/wet-dry. To be fair, this is the only ATM tank, sump and refugium I have seen in person, but I'm, not impressed with any of them. The sump design was very poor with no top frame. It broke before I started on the project. The refugium design is poor and there was no top frame so I had to add an expensive aluminum frame and redesign the drain. The overflow teeth are much too big on the tank, the seams have a lot of void spaces and bubbles, the top and bottom edges aren't polished, and the top frame was built out of a bad pour sheet (1/2" variance in thickness). These seconds are common and usually get melted down into a new sheet.

Each and every day with this project there is a ton of learning and readjustment to standards and quality assessments commensurate with my growing exposure to this hobby. The tank has really met my needs to date in that it hasn't leaked and the optics are good. Having said that I have to admit that Mr. Wilson's comments are correct. The original design, delivery and install was before Mr. Wilson's time on this project but he has been slowly educating me on what the tank should have looked like if it had in effect been manufactured with best practices in mind. It is clearly not a best practice but to be honest this fact would only be in evidence by a trained professional. I do admit that the overall aesthetic would be improved if the edges had been polished. I suspect no one from ATM monitors these threads so these comments will probably go unheeded.
Having said all of that I do NOT want to dwell on the subject now as I will be commenting on this issue as well as others in the Mid Term Review.

Peter

[Elliott]

We would like to replace the mhl as soon as we can find similar LEDs. Orphek sent me some samples of their new 100 watt single source (high bay) light yesterday. They should be here this week. I'm just not sure if we can fit them over the tank with our low clearance.

We give all new corals a 15 minute bath in Lugol's iodine then a 15 minute bath in Two Little Fishies Revive. It's hard to identify all the "stuff" at the bottom of the buckets, but I have fount two mantis shrimp so far. If I miss an acro crab, it dies or at least staggers out of the coral within minutes. Now I wish we had bathed the live rock, as we are dealing with a 4" nuisance crab now. We had montipora nudibranchs (flatworms) on one of our smaller monitipora, but we managed to remove them with the coral. As soon as we see a significant problem, we remove the coral to the Mars quarantine system for concentrated feeding and observation.

what is your QT protocol for fish? Do you prophylactically treat for anything?

[nineball]

Mr. Wilson,
Do we skip the Wison Bar water change today??

Peter

ps. We now have a total of three new baby cardinals two days old and two one month old. Not bad for a beginner!!!! Just in case you are confused, the beginners would be me and the fish of course.

[mkapraun10]

OMG... best reef tank in the universe.

[mr.wilson]

Mr. Wilson,
Do we skip the Wison Bar water change today??

Peter

ps. We now have a total of three new baby cardinals two days old and two one month old. Not bad for a beginner!!!! Just in case you are confused, the beginners would be me and the fish of course.

skip it. They can get caught up with the other stuff.

[mr.wilson]

what is your QT protocol for fish? Do you prophylactically treat for anything?

We hold all fish in QT Mars system for 3 weeks minimum. We have one system for copper tolerant and another for copper sensitive fish like wrasse gobies, wrasse, blennies and some laterally compressed (flat) fish. We use copper, praziquantel, and neomycin in one system. The other system has metronidazole, praziquantel, neomycin, and quinine as needed. I also use malachite green in baths when the need arises. Fresh water dips from time to time as well.

We keep the copper system salinity at 1.014, and slowly raise it over three weeks. The other system is kept at 1.024 and raised to 1.026 to match the display in the last week of QT.

The new HT was added to hold larger fish. We will be adding some moorish idols soon so we need a place to put them. The Mars system is too small for some corals as well, so it's good to have the space when you need it. Six months from now, the 130 gallon HT will likely be a predator tank with azoox (non-photosynthetic) corals.

[canesfan44]

Incredible pics of an incredible tank. I love the pic of the baby cardinal in the spines of the longspine urchin.:thumbsup:

[nineball]

skip it. They can get caught up with the other stuff.

Thanks, we'll do a thorough floor cleanup around the fish room tanks......

[Haksar]

Incredible pics.Keep up the good work.

[pscott99]

A very enjoyable read. And you are having fun too !

Did the aiptasia pasting work. Any more show up.

I noticed some green bubble algae in a coral pic. Warmed my heart as I stare at it nightly in my tank and muse. Do you expect it to clear up or do you plan on attacking it also.

:beer:

[Kipps]

The most amazing tank ever - thanks for sharing...

[mr.wilson]

A very enjoyable read. And you are having fun too !

Did the aiptasia pasting work. Any more show up.

I noticed some green bubble algae in a coral pic. Warmed my heart as I stare at it nightly in my tank and muse. Do you expect it to clear up or do you plan on attacking it also.

:beer:

The enjoyment lies in the ability to live with a small handful of potential pests like aiptasia and bubble algae. As long as they are kept in check, they are beneficial organisms. The crab on the other hand crossed the line:hammer:

The calcium hydroxide paste in the syringe killed the aiptasia back enough for my satisfaction after about 5 treatments. The kalkwasser in the marine epoxy wasn't successful. We pull out a few bubble algae here and there as we see fit, but there isn't much of it. We also have a similar turf algae that stays in check.

[d3hree]

I dont know which i have enjoyed the most, watching the tank "come alive" or following the excellent discussions found in the thread. I must admit that as a result of the excellent documentation found within these pages i am a little sad that the tank is up and running. I almost would like you to start again so we could enjoy more lengthy disscussions on the "best practices" of filtration, RO water etc etc.
Whilst I have very much enjoyed reading these discussions, and i now miss them somewhat, i do look forward to what is around the corner as we all follow this tank avidly.

I have a couple of questions if you wouldnt mind.
I have read that some species of fish should be quarenteened for longer than others, infections that they may carry could lay dorment in some species for long periods. Is this something you are familiar with Mr Wilson? Do you consider it? Tbh I am bouyed by your 3 week policy. I have read elsewhere that 3 months is reasonable. I consider myself a patient man but 3 months is a looong time.
Also I am pressuming that you add or have added fish to the QT tanks in bulk, ie you know what you want and order in one fell swoop, QT en mass and then add to the display after 3 weeks at which time you then consider the next batch of lucky tank mates. Has there ever been any cross over?....how was that handled?

Peter I have been a fan of this thread since the first sighting of the crane. I think we have all been humbled by your openess, your elegance and your ability to bring together what has to be one of the most inspiring threads the world over. I can only assume that in person you are a remarkable man and one that leaves a lasting impression on those around you.

[mr.wilson]

I dont know which i have enjoyed the most, watching the tank "come alive" or following the excellent discussions found in the thread. I must admit that as a result of the excellent documentation found within these pages i am a little sad that the tank is up and running. I almost would like you to start again so we could enjoy more lengthy disscussions on the "best practices" of filtration, RO water etc etc.
Whilst I have very much enjoyed reading these discussions, and i now miss them somewhat, i do look forward to what is around the corner as we all follow this tank avidly.

I have a couple of questions if you wouldnt mind.
I have read that some species of fish should be quarenteened for longer than others, infections that they may carry could lay dorment in some species for long periods. Is this something you are familiar with Mr Wilson? Do you consider it? Tbh I am bouyed by your 3 week policy. I have read elsewhere that 3 months is reasonable. I consider myself a patient man but 3 months is a looong time.
Also I am pressuming that you add or have added fish to the QT tanks in bulk, ie you know what you want and order in one fell swoop, QT en mass and then add to the display after 3 weeks at which time you then consider the next batch of lucky tank mates. Has there ever been any cross over?....how was that handled?

Peter I have been a fan of this thread since the first sighting of the crane. I think we have all been humbled by your openess, your elegance and your ability to bring together what has to be one of the most inspiring threads the world over. I can only assume that in person you are a remarkable man and one that leaves a lasting impression on those around you.

The slow creep of bureaucracy that goes along with public aquarium projects conditions curators to have patience to wait three months to add new livestock, but these are multi-million dollar installations that have been up an running for years, rather than months. Even public aquariums do not have the space and resources to hold all livestock for three months when first stocking the tank. A year or two down the road it becomes a possibility, but still dubious in value.

Most parasites have a 10-14 day life cycle. Adding an extra week of QT and subsequent prophylactic medication assures that there is a very low chance of transmission to the display tank. We are actually more likely to spread disease via careless feeding and cleaning practices (cross contamination from hoses, nets, towels etc.). Parasites can go dormant or find a secondary host such as coral. This brings us to our more likely security breach, pathogens on new coral additions. We can't medicate new corals and bacteria can linger in them for months without a primary fish host. We don't use fresh foods, just frozen or cooked, so disease transmission is limited in that respect. I'm comfortable with three weeks QT and if there are any health issues we extend the QT.

The best way to approach livestock addition is to assume the worst and hope for the best. Buy the healthiest looking fish and corals from a reputable dealer, then treat them as if you acquired them from the least reputable. I don't see a gain in waiting three months, especially if the new arrivals will be overcrowded and in less than optimum conditions. Adding fish to an established reef tank without the three week QT is a death wish. The poor survival rate most hobbyists encounter is from a lack of patience and dedication to adequately screen and QT livestock. A little extra effort goes a long way, and by the same token, too much is too much. Over medicating can deplete the fishes immune system, overcrowding encourages fish to fish disease transmission, poor water quality and diet causes stress, which leads to sick fish. On one hand, it is easy to target feed fish in small holding tanks with little or no hiding spots, but on the other hand, fish in small tanks tend to be shy and skittish. Some fish such as anthias need a large swimming area and to be kept in groups in order to feed properly. Other fish like angels and tangs need to graze on algae constantly. Once we move the fish to the main display it is as if they have been returned to the sea.

One approach to adding livestock is to add them in large numbers so territorial battles and singling out of the new "fish" is minimized. I prefer this method because it limits the number of times disease can enter the tank. If you slowly add one fish at a time over a much longer period, you continue to toss the dice and expose your livestock to new pathogens. like anything in this hobby, it's about striking a balance and maintaining it.

[Elliott]

We hold all fish in QT Mars system for 3 weeks minimum. We have one system for copper tolerant and another for copper sensitive fish like wrasse gobies, wrasse, blennies and some laterally compressed (flat) fish. We use copper, praziquantel, and neomycin in one system. The other system has metronidazole, praziquantel, neomycin, and quinine as needed. I also use malachite green in baths when the need arises. Fresh water dips from time to time as well.

We keep the copper system salinity at 1.014, and slowly raise it over three weeks. The other system is kept at 1.024 and raised to 1.026 to match the display in the last week of QT.

The new HT was added to hold larger fish. We will be adding some moorish idols soon so we need a place to put them. The Mars system is too small for some corals as well, so it's good to have the space when you need it. Six months from now, the 130 gallon HT will likely be a predator tank with azoox (non-photosynthetic) corals.

so you are not just observing but actually treating all new livestock?

[mr.wilson]

so you are not just observing but actually treating all new livestock?

You have to be proactive. All newly collected and shipped fish have pathogens that need to be controlled or eradicated with medications. Prayer and faith may work for some, but that has not been my experience.

[pscott99]

The enjoyment lies in the ability to live with a small handful of potential pests like aiptasia and bubble algae. As long as they are kept in check, they are beneficial organisms..

How refreshing, a true living reef. I like my one aiptasia ( so far )


We pull out a few bubble algae here and there as we see fit, but there isn't much of it.

When you say pull out can you elaborate. I have read that you shouldn't burst the bubbles. I have one batch that needs to go. Can I just suction it out with a baster ?

[mr.wilson]

I have read that you shouldn't burst the bubbles. I have one batch that needs to go. Can I just suction it out with a baster ?

You can wiggle them loose without popping them, but I think the reports that you should leave them alone or they will multiply are exaggerated. The same people will tell you to use emerald crabs or naso tangs to eradicate them. Crabs and tangs will certainly pop them.

Aiptasia can grow back from a small piece of basal tissue, but that doesn't mean killing them back encourages growth. Like a spiders web, if you keep destroying it, it's energy will be expended and it will not proliferate. That's what keeps organisms from becoming pests/parasites in nature, constant predation.

[Elliott]

You have to be proactive. All newly collected and shipped fish have pathogens that need to be controlled or eradicated with medications. Prayer and faith may work for some, but that has not been my experience.

oh I agree, just wanted to understand your protocol, I will be treating livestock before transferring to new tank :)

thanks :D

[mr.wilson]

oh I agree, just wanted to understand your protocol, I will be treating livestock before transferring to new tank :)

thanks :D

The treating regimen depends on the fish and overall health. I don't overdue it, as much as it may sound that way with the med list. I use antibiotics toward the end of the treatment to address secondary bacterial infections of fish parasite damage. It also helps with the depleted immune system that can occur with copper treatments. I find a lot of people are afraid of using copper, but used carefully it is a necessary poison. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but the "wait and see" method always has a poor outcome.

When I can, I use strong concentrations of antibiotics and certain chemicals like malachite green or formalin. Netting fish is stressful and damages slime coat fins and scales, so I dose the meds for the whole 125 gallon system into a few tanks where infected target fish are. Sometimes I shut down flow for 20 minutes to get good penetration and concentration, then open it up to dilute and improve water quality for the targeted fish.

The new HT has no substrate, which makes it easier to wipe the bottom of parasites and there is no copper absorbing aragonite or coral rock in the tank. I have one piece in their now to help the tank cycle, but it will be removed soon. We didn't use a UV sterilizer, ozone or a protein skimmer on the HT tank because they all reduce medications. We will throw a bag of carbon in the sump and do a big water change to remove residual meds. Oxidizers like potassium permanganate or sodium hypochlorite (dechlorinator). Keep in mind dechlorinator makes certain types of copper go back into solution when mixed with cupramine due to the amines.

[Robb in Austin]

I'm a bit curious about the size of the HT, specifically the height.

I would think you'd want longer vs taller. Not counting space requirements that is.

[mr.wilson]

I'm a bit curious about the size of the HT, specifically the height.

I would think you'd want longer vs taller. Not counting space requirements that is.

A series of small boxes like our Mars system is ideal. Fish are comfortable in their hiding places, water changes and meds are more efficient, fish to fish disease transmission is limited, and you can shut down tanks to medicate or clean/sterilize.

The new HT tank does not replace our two Mars systems. We got it for utilitarian purposes and picked the size based on the space we had available and ended up with a deal on an in-stock tank from Midwest Custom Aquarium. Gas exchange is better with a short tank with more surface area. The long term use for this tank is likely to be a non-photosynthetic (azoox) coral tank.

[Elliott]

The treating regimen depends on the fish and overall health. I don't overdue it, as much as it may sound that way with the med list. I use antibiotics toward the end of the treatment to address secondary bacterial infections of fish parasite damage. It also helps with the depleted immune system that can occur with copper treatments. I find a lot of people are afraid of using copper, but used carefully it is a necessary poison. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but the "wait and see" method always has a poor outcome.

When I can, I use strong concentrations of antibiotics and certain chemicals like malachite green or formalin. Netting fish is stressful and damages slime coat fins and scales, so I dose the meds for the whole 125 gallon system into a few tanks where infected target fish are. Sometimes I shut down flow for 20 minutes to get good penetration and concentration, then open it up to dilute and improve water quality for the targeted fish.

The new HT has no substrate, which makes it easier to wipe the bottom of parasites and there is no copper absorbing aragonite or coral rock in the tank. I have one piece in their now to help the tank cycle, but it will be removed soon. We didn't use a UV sterilizer, ozone or a protein skimmer on the HT tank because they all reduce medications. We will throw a bag of carbon in the sump and do a big water change to remove residual meds. Oxidizers like potassium permanganate or sodium hypochlorite (dechlorinator). Keep in mind dechlorinator makes certain types of copper go back into solution when mixed with cupramine due to the amines.

without a skimmer on the HT are you exporting nutrients using only water changes? if so, is it fresh seawater or DT water, what percent and how often?

[mr.wilson]

without a skimmer on the HT are you exporting nutrients using only water changes? if so, is it fresh seawater or DT water, what percent and how often?

Nitrate and phosphate is not an area of focus for fish only tanks. You will get a little more algae, but our HT has a short photoperiod (shorter parasite life cycle) and relatively low lighting. Fish can easily tolerate 200ppm nitrate and elevated trace elements. The primary focus is on nitrification which is often taxed in medicated systems. We have a wet/dry filter with bio balls which will also aid in gas exchange.

The rest of water quality concerns can be addressed with water changes. We are set up to do partially automated water changes with fresh saltwater or display tank water. Toward the end of the QT they will get display tank water.

The when and how much question depends on bioload, medications, feeding and overall condition.

[aquainas]

Excellent progress gentlemen, the LED's are definitely bringing out the fluorescence in the corals and growth over the past three months seems to be steady as well.

Mr Wilson, what test kit are you using to measure CU levels using Cupramine? I've heard conflicting opinions regarding API and Seachem, though I've employed the API from day one.

[Elliott]

Nitrate and phosphate is not an area of focus for fish only tanks. You will get a little more algae, but our HT has a short photoperiod (shorter parasite life cycle) and relatively low lighting. Fish can easily tolerate 200ppm nitrate and elevated trace elements. The primary focus is on nitrification which is often taxed in medicated systems. We have a wet/dry filter with bio balls which will also aid in gas exchange.

The rest of water quality concerns can be addressed with water changes. We are set up to do partially automated water changes with fresh saltwater or display tank water. Toward the end of the QT they will get display tank water.

The when and how much question depends on bioload, medications, feeding and overall condition.

regarding your copper treated tanks, do you reuse these for general use after a vinegar bath or are they dedicated for copper?

you mentioned cross contamination of disease, is there also a concern for cross contaminating of copper into the DT?

[mr.wilson]

regarding your copper treated tanks, do you reuse these for general use after a vinegar bath or are they dedicated for copper?

you mentioned cross contamination of disease, is there also a concern for cross contaminating of copper into the DT?

The HT and QT tanks are dedicated tanks. The only thing that absorbs a significant amount of copper is calcareous substrate. It's difficult to keep copper in solution, that is why we use ionic forms of copper.

[mr.wilson]

Excellent progress gentlemen, the LED's are definitely bringing out the fluorescence in the corals and growth over the past three months seems to be steady as well.

Mr Wilson, what test kit are you using to measure CU levels using Cupramine? I've heard conflicting opinions regarding API and Seachem, though I've employed the API from day one.

I usually use Mardel Copper Safe, but I do use SeaChem Cupramine due to availability. I use the Salifert Cu kit, but don't find it to be accurate. If you don't have calcareous substrate then you can rely mostly on careful dosing, water change and top-up. I usually let it drop below therapeutic levels rather than risk overdose.

[Elliott]

The HT and QT tanks are dedicated tanks. The only thing that absorbs a significant amount of copper is calcareous substrate. It's difficult to keep copper in solution, that is why we use ionic forms of copper.

so you are running 3 separate systems? DT, HT and QT?

[mr.wilson]

so you are running 3 separate systems? DT, HT and QT?

Yes, four systems if you count the mars invert QT. Eventually, all of these systems will become holding tanks for misc. "pets".

[Elliott]

BTW, I want to post a message regarding the use of Copper. It is a known catalyst of angioneogenesis in humans, which means it promotes the generation of new blood vessels. Since most Cancers spread by a process of angioneogenesis it's best to avoid exposure to Copper. If for example you are using an airstone in a copper treated tank it would be wise not to breath the mist by wearing a mask, avoid skin contact by wearing latex gloves and generally minimize exposure.

[nuccadoc]

If I may, Aquainas I have used both Seachem's and API's kit to test copper and have found them both to be accurate. I was using both kits at the same time to verify my findings.

[mr.wilson]

Yes, use the Seachem test kit with the Seachem copper.

[kharmaguru]

BTW, I want to post a message regarding the use of Copper. It is a known catalyst of angioneogenesis in humans, which means it promotes the generation of new blood vessels. Since most Cancers spread by a process of angioneogenesis it's best to avoid exposure to Copper. If for example you are using an airstone in a copper treated tank it would be wise not to breath the mist by wearing a mask, avoid skin contact by wearing latex gloves and generally minimize exposure.

OT. Perhaps there is a coralation between the rise of cancer in the western world and the use of copper pipes in home water supply systems. Class action suit! :P I'm sure the previous lead pipes weren't the greatest idea either.

[mr.wilson]

Actually, if cancer is your concern then "modern" PVC pipes are the most dangerous. If your house burns down, the dioxin released by the PVC are among the most toxic chemicals known to man. Copper is fine once it oxidizes on the surface.

[aquainas]

I usually use Mardel Copper Safe, but I do use SeaChem Cupramine due to availability. I use the Salifert Cu kit, but don't find it to be accurate. If you don't have calcareous substrate then you can rely mostly on careful dosing, water change and top-up. I usually let it drop below therapeutic levels rather than risk overdose.

Thank you Mr. Wilson:)

BTW, I want to post a message regarding the use of Copper. It is a known catalyst of angioneogenesis in humans, which means it promotes the generation of new blood vessels. Since most Cancers spread by a process of angioneogenesis it's best to avoid exposure to Copper. If for example you are using an airstone in a copper treated tank it would be wise not to breath the mist by wearing a mask, avoid skin contact by wearing latex gloves and generally minimize exposure.

Elliott would the concentration of say 0.5ppm in a QT be enough to be concerned or mainly the concentrate itself? I ask because I scrub the walls of my QT by hand when doing 50% water changes, in addition to having to pick up the feeding clip off the bottom of the tank every now and then. Should I be wearing gloves?

If I may, Aquainas I have used both Seachem's and API's kit to test copper and have found them both to be accurate. I was using both kits at the same time to verify my findings.

Good to know, I appreciate your comment on this. On a quick note, when using the API kit is it safe to say the proper reading is had from standing the vial on the card looking down or holding a few centimeters off the card looking down?

[Elliott]

OT. Perhaps there is a coralation between the rise of cancer in the western world and the use of copper pipes in home water supply systems. Class action suit! :P I'm sure the previous lead pipes weren't the greatest idea either.

the copper pipes commonly used do release copper in the drinking water, this is "governed" and limited and supposedly minuscule amounts get released, nevertheless it's a concern

working directly with copper such as we do when treating fish is definitely a possible direct source of poisonlng

[Elliott]

Actually, if cancer is your concern then "modern" PVC pipes are the most dangerous. If your house burns down, the dioxin released by the PVC are among the most toxic chemicals known to man. Copper is fine once it oxidizes on the surface.

yes, the fumes from pvc are very toxic, I remember someone on here was bending pvc by heating it up and another person was making Eductors himself out of pvc, I posted a similar message to avoid those fumes

[Elliott]

Thank you Mr. Wilson:)



Elliott would the concentration of say 0.5ppm in a QT be enough to be concerned or mainly the concentrate itself? I ask because I scrub the walls of my QT by hand when doing 50% water changes, in addition to having to pick up the feeding clip off the bottom of the tank every now and then. Should I be wearing gloves?


yes, where gloves and don't breath any fumes, avoid any and all exposure if possible

to be honest, I don't use copper for this reason, it's not worth the health risk to me

[mr.wilson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson's_disease

[aquainas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson's_disease

Better add more Zinc to my diet:reading:

[Elliott]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson's_disease

yes, not very common but I've seen a patient with Wilson's disease, treated with tetrathiomolybdate (TM), same thing we give to cancer patients with high copper levels

[Elliott]

Better add more Zinc to my diet:reading:

yes, Zink, Magnesium and Vit D
all good for our health :)
are we getting a little off track here? :worried:
sorry

[nuccadoc]

Thank you Mr. Wilson:)



Elliott would the concentration of say 0.5ppm in a QT be enough to be concerned or mainly the concentrate itself? I ask because I scrub the walls of my QT by hand when doing 50% water changes, in addition to having to pick up the feeding clip off the bottom of the tank every now and then. Should I be wearing gloves?



Good to know, I appreciate your comment on this. On a quick note, when using the API kit is it safe to say the proper reading is had from standing the vial on the card looking down or holding a few centimeters off the card looking down?


You place the vial directly on the card to get the proper reading.

The nice thing about the seachem test is it comes with a reference sampleso you can compare your readings for accuracy.

[aquainas]

You place the vial directly on the card to get the proper reading.

The nice thing about the seachem test is it comes with a reference sampleso you can compare your readings for accuracy.

Exactly what I thought, thanks Scott!

Mr.Wilson have you had to ramp up the DC pumps now that there's more livestock in the tank? I can't get over how "filled in" it looks already:)

[mr.wilson]

Exactly what I thought, thanks Scott!

Mr.Wilson have you had to ramp up the DC pumps now that there's more livestock in the tank? I can't get over how "filled in" it looks already:)

We started off at 100% then lowered it to 65-95% when the eductors were added. After more corals were added we went down to 50-75% to allow us to use the high flow areas. Now that it has filled in and everything is safely attached, I will be turning them back up to 45-65% then 45-90%, as there are four phases in sequence. The pumps have a photosensor and four more night phases which are around 25-45% then 25-65%. The wave timer is in seconds so we have a lot of flexibility. A common cycle is 45% for 2 minutes, 65% for 10 seconds, 55% for 1 minute, and 90% for 5 seconds - repeat. Each of the five pumps works on an independent timer cycle.

[nineball]

I'm not sure who is doing it but I would like to thank the folks who have rated this thread so high. It really is a huge compliment to all the members of this community and a testament to the continuing quality of dialog in this build.

Peter

[Elliott]

I'm not sure who is doing it but I would like to thank the folks who have rated this thread so high. It really is a huge compliment to all the members of this community and a testament to the continuing quality of dialog in this build.

Peter

honestly Peter you are the one the thank, you have gone above and beyond what anyone would even dream of, and much more than your build, its your dedication to this thread, incredible

[nineball]

honestly Peter you are the one the thank, you have gone above and beyond what anyone would even dream of, and much more than your build, its your dedication to this thread, incredible

Thanks Elliott but I sincerely believe its this total community. Its not a case of false modesty on my part but simply a recognition of the positive impact this technology can have when the culture supports it the way this thread has evolved. The best part I believe is yet to come which hopefully will distinguish those who have stuck this out from the beginning.......much like yourself. So thank you again...............for me, i'm off to bed.

Peter

[shannonpayne86]

What an astonishing build mate. Well done Peter, Mr Wilson and team. Looks like a proper reef and a great fish choice as well many underrated inhabitants in there. :eek1:

[ti-christ]

Your thread is much more interesting that our current federal election:o

[mr.wilson]

Your thread is much more interesting that our current federal election:o

Canadians have a hard time living in the shadow of American politics. On the surface, our election is extremely uneventful, but I'm sure it's fascinating stuff for political scientists with our own flavour of corruption, votes of non-confidence and moderate right wing minority government. I haven't been watching tv lately so I often forget the election is even on. There's a certain comfort in stability and moderation, but it's a hell of a lot more fun watching the US elections from a safe distance:beer:

Peter & I had a private tutor show us how to take better pictures on friday. We are hoping to apply these new skills to improve your viewing pleasure.

We were fortunate enough to have Charles Delbeek come by for a visit while he was in town. He suggested a better quality flow meter with a magnetic measuring device to replace our clamp-on flow meter. He also made some comments with regard to the poor job the acrylic tank manufacturer did on the seams. He liked the mangrove walls and suggested they would be nice to have in Peter's desk area beside the tank. Apparently Julian Sprung has done a few ornamental mangrove systems for clients. Apparently, the scorpion fish at the Steinhart Aquarium have been doing well for six months, then die mysteriously. We are at about six months with ours, so I will be keeping a close eye on him.

We spotted some eggs on the side of our pipefish and the Atlantic blue chromis have been spawning. The male Bangai cardinal has two females constantly feeding him eggs and a few other fish (mandarin gobies, Bartlets anthias) seem to be going through breeding rituals.

We haven't caught our pest crab yet, and I'll admit I haven't been focusing much on the task. I moved 15 (yes fifteen) elegant corals into the mars system from the display due to what looks like large bite marks. The only other coral affected was two plate corals with a "pie slice" taken out of each of them. They all seem to be doing better in the Mars system. We need a few more days to confirm that the cure is sanctuary from the crab.

[dave.m]

Mr.Wilson, when would you like to meet?

Dave.M

[muttley000]

Things sure are progressing, the tank is looking great. Hard to believe how much time has passed already since this thread was started, more than a year already. I wish I had more to add, but must be satisfied with sitting back and learning, please keep it up!

The discussion of the potential health hazards of the copper is new to me, has this been formally documented somewhere? Would the same problem occur with the copper products we use to control algae in ponds? My grandkids swim ponds that were treated in the past with copper sulfate:worried2:

Any more thoughts on Mr. Wilson's book, or a timeframe?

And lastly, we have been hearing for years that the LED pricing would get to a place where it was within reach of the average hobbiest. I know you don't like to talk dollars in the thread, but do you see a shift yet, or have any feeling on how far in the future that is?

Thanks in advance!
Matt

[msr224]

Peter and Shawn,

Is there any chance of some PAR numbers and comparison of all the new lighting? I know there is a difference with the PAR/PUR issue and I am sure you'll explain that for us in a manner we can understand....... :)

I think this would help to educate us in regards to lighting and coral propagation. It would also give us some insight into your ideas of best practices.

[Reefski's]

is the lighting even throughout the tank? or are there some areas that you want lower light corals or is that achieved by the distance to the lighting only?

i too would like to know what PAR values are.

[klviper]

Any update on the clearwater tech ozone system... Is it up and running?

[nuccadoc]

Mr Wilson I would like to get your view on filter socks. Do you think they do more harm than good by removing necessary food that the corals would otherwise consume. I remember reading something from Dr Shimek about this very thing. Proponents of the socks say it helps prevent detritus for building up in their sump whereas I'm thinking that if you set up a duplex sump that you mentioned in the advanced section this detritus would be beneficial.

Thanks

[aquainas]

Mr Wilson I am interested in your viewpoint on this subject matter as well. I was running 200 micron filter socks on a 2 day replacement schedule so as to avoid breakdown of the organics as I too was concerned with detritus build up in the sump due to it's slower turnover. Additionally I've maintained the use of a K4 in the sump to suspend detritus in the skimmer chamber which then seems to mostly settle in the middle sandbed chamber or return where it's very easy to siphon or sponge out.
Needless to say I got tired of the swapping and stopped using the socks and have not noticed much difference other than slightly less film build up on the glass and better polyp extension on some of my SPS.

[Padrino]

Mr. Wilson,
You may have mentioned this already a couple hundred pages back and for that i apologize.
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/fe3e583e.jpg

These pumps in the above picture? They control the closed loop? Which pumps are they? DC brushless? Controllable? Where did you get them?

Thanks
Rob

[pawek]

Next time I am in Canada I have to stop by and cgeck it out.

[mr.wilson]

Mr. Wilson,
You may have mentioned this already a couple hundred pages back and for that i apologize.
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af109/reefandrainforest/fe3e583e.jpg

These pumps in the above picture? They control the closed loop? Which pumps are they? DC brushless? Controllable? Where did you get them?

Thanks
Rob

Four of them are for the closed loop and there is another one attached to the sump as a return pump.

They are made by Venotech in Germany. The model is Abyzz 420.

They are DC brushless with a controller that does up to 8 pumps individually. It monitors/controls rpm, pump temp, water at pump, power consumption, 4 day speed cycles from 0-100% in one second or one minute intervals, 4 night cycles, audible alarm, thermal and run dry on/off. Absolutely silent, 6,500 GPH, 9m head pressure, titanium shaft and stater. The wet end of the pump runs at about 85˚ F, compared to most at 130˚F.

You can order from several distributors in germany. They do not make a North American version or have a distributor.

[mr.wilson]

Things sure are progressing, the tank is looking great. Hard to believe how much time has passed already since this thread was started, more than a year already. I wish I had more to add, but must be satisfied with sitting back and learning, please keep it up!

The discussion of the potential health hazards of the copper is new to me, has this been formally documented somewhere? Would the same problem occur with the copper products we use to control algae in ponds? My grandkids swim ponds that were treated in the past with copper sulfate:worried2:

Any more thoughts on Mr. Wilson's book, or a timeframe?

And lastly, we have been hearing for years that the LED pricing would get to a place where it was within reach of the average hobbiest. I know you don't like to talk dollars in the thread, but do you see a shift yet, or have any feeling on how far in the future that is?

Thanks in advance!
Matt

I don't know anything about the human dangers of copper exposure, other than the dangers of ingesting it.

Symazine is a common algaecide, and it is a known carcinogen. there is heavy regulation on products sold as algaecides, that's why some companies sell algaecides as water clarifiers or under other names.

No time for books or writing now, maybe next year.

LED pricing has gone down, but quality and intensity has gone up so it's hard to notice. The 120 watt Orphek LEDs we are using retail for $850. Some manufacturers have invested in controller R&D while Orphek has invested in the emitter technology. As soon as the Chinese manufacturers catch up with current technology, prices will drop. We still have a few years before advances plateau. The next big thing in LED is high bay lighting with 100 or 300 watt single light sources. These lights run about $750 and won't drop in price for a few years.

[mr.wilson]

Peter and Shawn,

Is there any chance of some PAR numbers and comparison of all the new lighting? I know there is a difference with the PAR/PUR issue and I am sure you'll explain that for us in a manner we can understand....... :)

I think this would help to educate us in regards to lighting and coral propagation. It would also give us some insight into your ideas of best practices.

I posted the general PAR numbers recently. I will take some pics and post the par for a few areas soon.

[mr.wilson]

is the lighting even throughout the tank? or are there some areas that you want lower light corals or is that achieved by the distance to the lighting only?

i too would like to know what PAR values are.

PAR values range from 650 near the surface to 450 in the middle and 300 on the bottom near the viewing panels. Height, angle, and shadows provide an area for low light corals. We have some caves and overhangs for sponges and dendronephthya.

[mr.wilson]

Any update on the clearwater tech ozone system... Is it up and running?

I'll admit I've been lazy in wiring the relay. I've turned it on a few times, and it works, but it will have to wait until the relay can turn it on and off via Profilux. For now, we are using the Del Zone T3 ozonizer.

[mr.wilson]

Mr Wilson I would like to get your view on filter socks. Do you think they do more harm than good by removing necessary food that the corals would otherwise consume. I remember reading something from Dr Shimek about this very thing. Proponents of the socks say it helps prevent detritus for building up in their sump whereas I'm thinking that if you set up a duplex sump that you mentioned in the advanced section this detritus would be beneficial.

Thanks

Our tank is a snow globe of detritus even with four 100 micron filter socks. There is no shortage of free-floating food. If you are concerned, you can turn your return pump off (feed mode) during feeding time or at night.

If you don't feed 50-150 micron coral food to your tank, then yes, you should lose the filter socks to keep detritus suspended. If your flow is poorly engineered then you don't need a filter sock because it will settle in the substrate and rock work, but you will have nuisance algae problems and elevated nutrient levels.

The idea is to feed heavily, then remove uneaten food with various forms of mechanical filtration. A cryptic zone in the sump will help process detritus biologically. I use starfish and urchins in the sump to vacuum up whatever settles. A surge system in the sump or anywhere that detritus can settle is a good idea.

[mr.wilson]

Mr Wilson I am interested in your viewpoint on this subject matter as well. I was running 200 micron filter socks on a 2 day replacement schedule so as to avoid breakdown of the organics as I too was concerned with detritus build up in the sump due to it's slower turnover. Additionally I've maintained the use of a K4 in the sump to suspend detritus in the skimmer chamber which then seems to mostly settle in the middle sandbed chamber or return where it's very easy to siphon or sponge out.
Needless to say I got tired of the swapping and stopped using the socks and have not noticed much difference other than slightly less film build up on the glass and better polyp extension on some of my SPS.

I agree filter socks are a PITA. If the burden of cleaning them exceeds the rewards, then they simply aren't worth it. Protein skimmers collect some detritus. If you keep detritus suspended long enough, it will eventually reach the open mouth of a coral. Settling containers allow detritus to be siphoned out easily.

In summary, I use filter socks but don't consider them to be necessary. The main reason why I value them is to keep the snow globe from getting too turbid for visibility.

[Padrino]

Four of them are for the closed loop and there is another one attached to the sump as a return pump.

They are made by Venotech in Germany. The model is Abyzz 420.

They are DC brushless with a controller that does up to 8 pumps individually. It monitors/controls rpm, pump temp, water at pump, power consumption, 4 day speed cycles from 0-100% in one second or one minute intervals, 4 night cycles, audible alarm, thermal and run dry on/off. Absolutely silent, 6,500 GPH, 9m head pressure, titanium shaft and stater. The wet end of the pump runs at about 85˚ F, compared to most at 130˚F.

You can order from several distributors in germany. They do not make a North American version or have a distributor.


Wow that is some serious pocket change. How do you like them thus far? If i remember correctly when you came to visit me in Barrie, that they were really late on delivery? Definately has some awesome features that I cannot afford. Perhaps you know of a similar pump that would be good for a closed loop setup on a 220 that has variable flow and is more affordable.

Thanks Shawn!
Rob

[mr.wilson]

Wow that is some serious pocket change. How do you like them thus far? If i remember correctly when you came to visit me in Barrie, that they were really late on delivery? Definately has some awesome features that I cannot afford. Perhaps you know of a similar pump that would be good for a closed loop setup on a 220 that has variable flow and is more affordable.

Thanks Shawn!
Rob

Unfortunately, there aren't very many options at this point in time. Royal Exclusiv has a new DC pump called "Speedy" that looks promising, and at half the price. No news as to when it will be available in North America.

[IceCremAssassin]

Post #6631 the bottom 2 pics.. may I ask where you got that stand?

[mr.wilson]

Post #6631 the bottom 2 pics.. may I ask where you got that stand?

http://8020.net/

[Padrino]

its made from aluminum Extrusion. You make it yourself. However i would only use this product on small nano tanks only. Ive seen this stuff bent under load

[cdan]

If the frame is designed properly it's fine to use extrusion nice thread and tank by the way.

[mr.wilson]

The website I linked has a deflection calculator so everything is engineered. The tank we are using on the stand is 31.5" tall so it's heavier than most. I used a 3/4" sheet of white PVC between the tank and the stand.

[chingchai]

Peter. How are you?

[IceCremAssassin]

http://8020.net/

Thank you... I made my own with the same type materials.. got mine here..
http://www.alu-flex.net/

[nineball]

Peter. How are you?

I'm fine thank you Chingchai. Mr. Wilson and I have been very busy with various aspects of the aquarium and improvements to the fish room. We have been working 6 days a week non stop. This is beginning to feel like a full time job. The reef is really starting to take shape.

Mr. Wilson has just picked up the DT frozen oyster eggs. Can you tell me how much you feed your display tank and how often. We also got the Liquid Ocean Nutrition Oyster eggs.....are you familiar with them. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Peter

[nineball]

The older Brother Grimm made a custom crab trap consisting of a two litre clear plastic jar with the top taken off and replaced with a hand made custom white picket fence anchored by a spring loaded base that would allow the fence to be lowered to enter the jar but would snap back to prevent the crab from escaping.

Unless of course, the crab in question is a post graduate from the Houdini school of crab gyrations which has one claw holding the fence down and the other claw reaching for the succulent whole juicy previously frozen shrimp. Before my little friend made his escape I appeared and he took off to the security of his cave.......minus the shrimp.

I still have to make some adjustments to the trap to taste success. I have to tie a fishing line to the Jar so I can get the crab out of the water before he gets a chance to figure out his escape.

This fish stuff never seems to take a holiday!!!

Peter

[mr.wilson]

Yes Peter, a rich life of achievement and it all comes down to man vs. Crab! To the victor belong the spoils. He has home court advantage for the short game but from a statistical standpoint the long game is yours, however perilous.

[nineball]

Did you get the pic of your worm?????

[nineball]

A couple of weeks ago Mr. Wilson had me visit Henrys Camera Store to get advice on taking larger than life macro shots. While there, Mr. Henry hearing my challenge introduced me to a professional photographer who he offered would take me to the next level. The name of the photographer is Michael Willems and Mr. Wilson and I have had the privilege of taking private lessons from him over the last few weeks. The material is geared to general photography but we have been taking our lessons in front of our display tank and as a consequence we have been getting advice and coaching with shooting life in aquariums. Mr. Wilson and I felt it was appropriate for us to share some of the principles we have been learning direct from our instructors blog. Its a great resource and highly recommended to this community. The best part of his blog is that you can ask questions about 'fish' photography and Michael will answer them. We have introduced Michael to our marine world and he sounds like he is getting hooked so I urge anyone looking to improve your camera skills to look at his blog. If you do stop by, say HI from Peter and Shawn and you will be treated like royalty.

the blog is........www.speedlighter.ca Scroll down to "finding Nemo". There is also an earlier comment on our aquarium if anyone is interested.

Mr. Wilson and I hope to demonstrate our improving skills in the near future with our practice sessions. We have agreed to share our experiences with this community as we will be focussing on corals and fish and felt it would benefit everyone. Time will tell...........

Peter

[hawk7782]

I can't wait. Over the years I have spent more on photagraphy and dark rooms (yes I'm that old) than I have tanks. Looking forward to your journey of blending the two.