Noisy Vortech DrySide FIX!!

[dahenley]

THIS WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY!!

I am not responsible for your or my actions :hmm4: and can not guarantee any ones outcomes.

Well, because i am a college student and my pocket book always reflects this..... and i own a 240gal tank with not enough flow. i decided to invest in a USED Ecotech Vortech..

I purchased an "Original" Vortech from a reefer. when i purchased it, i didnt realize that the "Original" ones had no modes or programing.... just a speed control.
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100901_194307.jpg~original

I purchased it in a non working state. i was told that the pump need a powersupply. SO, i purchased a powersupply from Ecotech. Plugged my pump in and heard it come to life for about 5sec... the a nasty red light of death. so, i purchased a ES driver upgraded from a guy. Then, it works great. it just makes a lot of noise......

I pulled the wetside off and held the dry side and could still hear the noise. So, i pulled the magnet off the pump. just incase there was a piece of metal that got pulled to the magnet and would cause the noise.... NO such luck...

Now, i decide to take it to the MAX. I decide to FIX it my self!!! (seriously, who buys a 400$ pump and tears it apart :spin2::spin2::spin2: ) THIS GUY DOES!! plus, i couldnt afford a 220$ DrySide.


HERE we go, hold on and get ready to see how to fix this problem!!!!!!

[dahenley]

Well, its time to tear this baby apart!

First, pull the adjuster off the bottom of the pump
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100901_165834.jpg~original

Now, its time to take the magnet off the pump.. (just take the center SS screw off and thats it)
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100901_165917.jpg~original

Now, flip it over, and grab a Razor blade and begin the removal of the sticker
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100901_165953.jpg~original

Once your done with that, remove the 3 screws that hold the pump motor into the housing
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100901_170118.jpg~original

once that is done, you will have to push the motor and cord out of the housing (it should look like this now)
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100901_170219.jpg~original

Now, there are 3 long screws that hold the motor housing apart.
then, pull housing off, and pull the inner mag/bearing assy out
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100901_170540.jpg~original

This is what you will need to get out.
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100901_170801.jpg~original

you will need to get your bearings off the shaft without breaking or chipping your black magnet outer cover. you can not buy this part if anything happens or you break it.
i used 2 screw drivers and i was able to pop off the bearings.
i also got a cheap Bearing press off E b a y and it will work just as good. (harbor Freight didnt have a small one in my area....)

Now, you will need the bearings!!!!!!!!
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100902_182336.jpg~original

With the new bearings, press them on the shaft.
your mag assy should look like this now.
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100902_174412.jpg~original

[dahenley]

NOW, its time to put this baby back together!!

re-install your mag assy in the housing.
(make sure your spring washer is on the wireside/magnet side of the housing)
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100901_170540.jpg~original

Before you put the pump all the way back together, i plugged mine in after i had the inner housing screwed together. (i wanted to test it and make sure everything is good. just in case i needed to take things back apart)
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100902_174645.jpg~original

Guess what!! This baby is rocking and is Dead Silent!!
i let my driver ramp up and down a few times before turning it off and finishing the assy
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100902_174704.jpg~original

Now, put the motor back in the housing
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100902_174757.jpg~original

re-install the sticker!! and make sure its straight. no need in cutting corners now!
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100901_165756.jpg~original

Now, the real test!!!
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad227/james1307oak/Vortech%20pump/IMG_20100902_181340.jpg~original


This pump is rocking, and is silent again....
and i didnt have to spend 220$ on a new DrySide!!! :inlove::inlove::inlove::inlove:

[dahenley]

Lastly, the bearings that i used were

607Z (7 X 19 X 6)

and

698ZZ (8 X 19 X 6)

[ultreef]

What kind of bearing did you replace it with? Do you have the specs on those?

I know the original ones are NMB-1980. I thought both were the same size.

[Porcupinepuffer]

This is awesome stuff. :beer:

[dahenley]

What kind of bearing did you replace it with? Do you have the specs on those?

I know the original ones are NMB-1980. I thought both were the same size.

The 1980 converts to the 698. Different brand.
and the bearings are different internal bore.
The other is a 607. The Z and ZZ explains the difference seals or sheilds.

The bearings Are standard roller bearings. Not flanged bearings

[ultreef]

I asked because I think there is room for improvement over the stock NMB ones. But i'm no expert in bearings.

My vortechs are perfectly fine. They aren't dead silent, but maybe there is a compatible bearing out there that's better? less noise, less resistants and last longer? Maybe someone that knows bearing can help.

Thanks.



The 1980 converts to the 698. Different brand.
and the bearings are different internal bore.
The other is a 607. The Z and ZZ explains the difference seals or sheilds.

The bearings Are standard roller bearings. Not flanged bearings

[SWINGRRRR]

Nice job. (Dang not even a mention for technical support) J/Jing. I plan to get my bearings on Monday. Can you PM the flea bay link to the seperator plate?

[SWINGRRRR]

I asked because I think there is room for improvement over the stock NMB ones. But i'm no expert in bearings.

My vortechs are perfectly fine. They aren't dead silent, but maybe there is a compatible bearing out there that's better? less noise, less resistants and last longer? Maybe someone that knows bearing can help.

Thanks.

This is mainly for people with 1+ year old Vortecs when the bearings get LOUD. Not a stock upgrade.

[XSiVE]

Thanks for this, it has taken away any fear of purchasing an old gen1 :)

[seashark]

Lastly, the bearings that i used were

607Z (7 X 19 X 6)

and

698ZZ (8 X 19 X 6)

first of all thanks for sharing, i am also thinking to do this, are this bearings above , can i use 607Z (7x19x6) on each end of the shaft? or oposite end of the shaft takes 698ZZ (7x19x6)? thanks

[dahenley]

the inside diameter is different on the bearings. so you will use the 607Z for one side and a 698ZZ on the other. you cant mess it up. they will only fit on one side. also, because the bearings are not flanged, there is no front or back side to the bearing. if that helps

[seashark]

thanks , could you post the link where you got your bearings please,

[jedheuer]

How noisy was the dry side before you made your fixes? By dead silent now do you really mean dead silent as in you cannot hear it at all??

[iamwrasseman]

funny that so many of them fail in this way ,you would think that for the money they would work forever but they dont and its quite disappointing to me as my $50 tunzies and korallia's work for years trouble free .
just my 2 pennies

[ultreef]

This is mainly for people with 1+ year old Vortecs when the bearings get LOUD. Not a stock upgrade.

A brand new out of the box Vortech isn't quiet to begin with. So if there is an improvement that can be made, simply by changing the bearing, to reduce the noise, make it run smoother with less resistance and last longer. Then why not?

[SWINGRRRR]

Then why not?

I has a year warranty. If its that bad send it back. I wouldn't mess with any $200+ part still under warranty but YMMV.


Most remote control hobby shops will have the 607 bearing. Its a HPI1421. Its a crankcase bearing to them, but still fairly common.

[dahenley]

How noisy was the dry side before you made your fixes? By dead silent now do you really mean dead silent as in you cannot hear it at all??

My tank was in the Den, and i could hear it 1-2 rooms away.. it was noisy!!
and your right about "Dead" silent. if i am right next to it, i can hear it. (with in a 1-2feet) after that, the noise is gone for me.

my recliner is 8-10 feet from the corner of my tank where the Vortech is, and i cant hear it. (if that helps??)

i can tell that some of the noise that i can hear on mine, is from the actual magnet on the DrySide. it isnt 100% round. you can see it if you hold the DrySide and look at it as you turn it on. but, its not that far out of round, and because its SSOOOOOO much more quiet now, im not worrying about it. (plus they dont sell the DrySide magnet so there is nothing i can do)

[dahenley]

funny that so many of them fail in this way ,you would think that for the money they would work forever but they dont and its quite disappointing to me as my $50 tunzies and korallia's work for years trouble free .
just my 2 pennies

50$ Tunzies, that's a DEAL!!
and you have to think, your getting one heck of a pump. (its taken me 2 years to save up enough money and find a deal on one of these and be able to buy it.) the flow is great. Its about the Equivalent of a MJ1200 with the White impeller mod. the only difference is the Vortech doesn't make a humming noise when on like the MJ. Its flow is about the same distance, but the Vortech has about 2-3 times the width of flow verses the MJ. and the Vortech is controllable.

as for the working for years, there is never any problem with it working, its just the bearings get wore, and need replacing. (just like brakes on a car. every one is different and some can go years with out maintenance and others less then a year. on the same make and model of vehicle. its just life)
plus the bearings are TOTALLY different on the Vortech. it uses roller bearings verses a bushing and ceramic shaft. Ecotech could invest in Ceramic roller bearings, but then the price of the pump would go up 100$ or so.... for some, it might be worth it, and others like me, its not.


My .02

[dahenley]

thanks , could you post the link where you got your bearings please,

My local bearing house had them on the shelf. its not a weird bearing..

I also ordered mine off Sneeze Bay because they were only 1-4$ verses 15$ each locally........ (as far as ordering over the internet, go ahead and find a reputable bearing brand. its not worth the 1-2$ difference in a cheap verses quality bearing. plus you will get better precession and less noise. just a fact)

but RC shops keep them as well. just make a few calls and you will be surprised at where you can get them. (i seriously thought they would be hard to find.... man, was i mistaken.
The hard part was crossing the bearing numbers over.... after a while, i had to get out my Digital Calipers and guess what..... its a local bearings.

the bearings on the Original shaft were a funky brand and thats what caused the hard cross over...

[sjm817]

funny that so many of them fail in this way ,you would think that for the money they would work forever but they dont and its quite disappointing to me as my $50 tunzies and korallia's work for years trouble free .
just my 2 pennies
$50 Tunze? Which model would that be? The closest equivalent model is a 6105. This forum is also chock full of people with Koralia problems. Nothing works forever and worn dryside bearings on a Vortech are extremely rare. This is actually the first one I've seen posted. I ran Tunzes for years and liked them. They didn't last "forever" either. The impeller assembly wore and had to be replaced every year or so. Once the body housing gets worn eough, you have to replace the whole pump, but that is also many years down the road.

[sjm817]

dahenly

Nice DIY write up on the bearing replacement. :thumbsup:

[sfsuphysics]

wow... when I had a dry side make horrid noise I tried to see if something was "stuck" as well, unfortunately I couldn't get the magnet off as I couldn't get the magnet to hold still while I dried to unscrew the screw.

Either way its quite disappointing to see that this is a 100% fixable thing yet Ecotech is charging massive bucks for a replacement, and then probably just rebuilding the ones you mail in hoping they'll fix (yet end up telling you it needs to be completely replaced)

[dahenley]

wow... when I had a dry side make horrid noise I tried to see if something was "stuck" as well, unfortunately I couldn't get the magnet off as I couldn't get the magnet to hold still while I dried to unscrew the screw.

Either way its quite disappointing to see that this is a 100% fixable thing yet Ecotech is charging massive bucks for a replacement, and then probably just rebuilding the ones you mail in hoping they'll fix (yet end up telling you it needs to be completely replaced)

If you use a Razor and take the sticker off the back of the DrySide, you can see a Flat Head area to put a screwdriver. this is the shaft that goes through the motor and to the magnet. so you can use a Flathead to hold the shaft from turning, and a fillips on the other side to unscrew the screw that holds the magnet on. i was able to just push on the magnet and give a quick turn on the screw and mine broke loose. but i can see where some could be hard to unscrew.

just another tip if needed.


as far as being expensive, some people have said that if you mail in your dryside for a new one, they will sell you the new one for 160$ish but that is just hearsay. (im just too broke to afford that. )

[seashark]

Ntn bearings are hard to find,i tried google it could not find it, is there any other brand that as good? I saw some other brands on ebay, but not sure about ebay brands, THANKS IN ADVANCE

[dahenley]

NTN bearings were just local.

i was looking at bearings on freezebay, and if you type 698-2rs. there are a few options. one of which says ceramic bearing.
if i were to do it again, i would probably try one of those out. with metal on metal, there is heat and expansion and contraction. with ceramic, there is way less friction due to more precise and they are lubed and have dual urethane shields. this will keep the bearing lubricated. not just prevent contamination.

but thats "IF" i have to do it again.
i would like to have another one local that i could do a comparison with the ceramic bearing verses my standard steel shielded bearing.

maybe next time.

[dahenley]

and, before you complain, yes its a 12$ bearing verses a .99 cent one. but its still cheaper then 220$ and you will need 2 different bearings so 20$ is still better then 220$

[dahenley]

This is a common question nowadays when talking about machine tool spindles. Although most manufacturers will tell you the ceramic ball has far more advantages than the steel ball. In most cases that may be true, but is it necessary for your application? Quantum Precision is not looking to sell you the most expensive bearing for your application. We’ll work with you to provide a bearing that will perform under your conditions, and at a reasonable cost.

Provided below are som FAQ's about ceramic bearings vs. steel.


What Is A Hybrid Bearing?
A hybrid bearing is made up of metal rings and silicon nitride ceramic balls with lubricant and retainer appropriate to the type of bearing and application. The silicon nitride balls typically allow for higher speeds, lower operating temperatures, extended lubricant life and many other performance enhancements.

Why Do Ceramic Silicon Nitride Balls Improve Bearing Performance?
Compared to steel balls, Ceramic balls are lighter, smoother, stiffer, harder, corrosion resistant, and electrically resistant. These fundamental characteristics allow for a wide range of performance enhancements in bearings.

Are Ceramic Balls Brittle and Fragile?
Silicon Nitride ceramic balls do not have as high a toughness or ductility as steel. But, due to their high strength, stiffness, and microstructural make-up, they are actually much more durable than steel balls.
Compare The Material Properties of Silicon Nitride Balls to Steel Balls.

Ceramic balls are >60% lighter, >50% stiffer, >70% smoother, and much, much harder than steel balls. Ceramic balls have >100X better rolling contact fatigue life in comparison to Vacuum Melt 52100 Steel.

What Applications Use Hybrid Bearings?
The most common application today is angular contact bearings for high speed machine tool spindles. End-users are seeking higher speed, longer life, reduced lubrication, and decreased total operating costs. Ceramic balls are used in a very wide range of applications from dental handpieces to surgical saws to wing-flap actuators to electric motors.

Are Ceramic Balls More Expensive Than Steel Balls?
Yes. In direct comparison, Ceramic balls are clearly more expensive than steel balls. BUT, when assembled into a hybrid bearing, the price of the bearing assembly is actually quite competitive when compared to all steel bearings. On a Total Operating Cost basis, hybrid bearings typically always pay for themselves many times over in extended life time, enhanced performance, or increased durability. Over the past 15 years, Ceramic balls have steadily become more and more affordable for a wider range of applications as the volumes have climbed.

How Do You Make a Ceramic Ball?
Ceramic balls are made from an ISO-9000 certified process starting with micron sizes powder which is compacted and then densified at extremely high pressures and temperatures. The densified blanks are then precision finished using free-abrasive diamond lapping procedures. Grade 3 and 5 precision levels are typical in high volume batch sizes.

How Are Precision Balls Specified?
Ceramic balls (and any other finished ball from all materials) are specified by using ABMA, ISO, JIS, ASTM or other standards. The sphericity, surface finish, lot diameter variation, etc…. are precisely defined by these standards into various “Grade” levels. The highest typical Grade is 3 (denoting 3 millionths sphericity or better), then 5, then 10, etc….. Bearing companies use different grades depending on the bearing precision and application.

How Much Longer Life Can Be Expected From Hybrid Bearings Vs. Steel?
This is a tough question. Generally speaking, one can expect 2 to 5 times longer life for most applications, but it is highly dependent on operating conditions, bearing design, etc….

What Ceramic Ball Sizes Are Available?
This is an easy question. Ceramic balls are readily available from 0.5 mm (about 1/64”) to 25mm (1”) in a variety of ball grades. Ceramic balls can be made up to 3” (75mm) in diameter. The most popular sized balls tend to be from 1mm to 13 mm in terms of quantity used.

How Can I Buy Ceramic Balls?
We’re so glad you asked!! You can use the contact us inquiry page on this web-site

What Are The Draw-Backs Or Limitations To Using Ceramic Balls?
We’d like to say there are none, but Ceramic balls cannot be used for every application. A stiffer ball can increase contact stresses if raceway curvatures are not adjusted. For extremely high load applications, silicon nitride balls may not be suitable since they may accelerate steel raceway fatigue. Also, silicon nitride balls are more costly than steel balls and while they continue to be more and more affordable, they may not be economical for every application despite longer life and enhanced performance.

(taken from quantumprecisiongroup dot com)
nice read. and it really makes me want to trade out my new steel bearings for a ceramic hybrid or full ceramic)

[seashark]

ceramic bearings sounds good , i'll try to find it , thanks again

[ultreef]

Thanks for this usefull info. Sounds much better than the stock bearing that comes with the pump.

This is a common question nowadays when talking about machine tool spindles. Although most manufacturers will tell you the ceramic ball has far more advantages than the steel ball. In most cases that may be true, but is it necessary for your application? Quantum Precision is not looking to sell you the most expensive bearing for your application. We’ll work with you to provide a bearing that will perform under your conditions, and at a reasonable cost.

Provided below are som FAQ's about ceramic bearings vs. steel.


What Is A Hybrid Bearing?
A hybrid bearing is made up of metal rings and silicon nitride ceramic balls with lubricant and retainer appropriate to the type of bearing and application. The silicon nitride balls typically allow for higher speeds, lower operating temperatures, extended lubricant life and many other performance enhancements.

Why Do Ceramic Silicon Nitride Balls Improve Bearing Performance?
Compared to steel balls, Ceramic balls are lighter, smoother, stiffer, harder, corrosion resistant, and electrically resistant. These fundamental characteristics allow for a wide range of performance enhancements in bearings.

Are Ceramic Balls Brittle and Fragile?
Silicon Nitride ceramic balls do not have as high a toughness or ductility as steel. But, due to their high strength, stiffness, and microstructural make-up, they are actually much more durable than steel balls.
Compare The Material Properties of Silicon Nitride Balls to Steel Balls.

Ceramic balls are >60% lighter, >50% stiffer, >70% smoother, and much, much harder than steel balls. Ceramic balls have >100X better rolling contact fatigue life in comparison to Vacuum Melt 52100 Steel.

What Applications Use Hybrid Bearings?
The most common application today is angular contact bearings for high speed machine tool spindles. End-users are seeking higher speed, longer life, reduced lubrication, and decreased total operating costs. Ceramic balls are used in a very wide range of applications from dental handpieces to surgical saws to wing-flap actuators to electric motors.

Are Ceramic Balls More Expensive Than Steel Balls?
Yes. In direct comparison, Ceramic balls are clearly more expensive than steel balls. BUT, when assembled into a hybrid bearing, the price of the bearing assembly is actually quite competitive when compared to all steel bearings. On a Total Operating Cost basis, hybrid bearings typically always pay for themselves many times over in extended life time, enhanced performance, or increased durability. Over the past 15 years, Ceramic balls have steadily become more and more affordable for a wider range of applications as the volumes have climbed.

How Do You Make a Ceramic Ball?
Ceramic balls are made from an ISO-9000 certified process starting with micron sizes powder which is compacted and then densified at extremely high pressures and temperatures. The densified blanks are then precision finished using free-abrasive diamond lapping procedures. Grade 3 and 5 precision levels are typical in high volume batch sizes.

How Are Precision Balls Specified?
Ceramic balls (and any other finished ball from all materials) are specified by using ABMA, ISO, JIS, ASTM or other standards. The sphericity, surface finish, lot diameter variation, etc…. are precisely defined by these standards into various “Grade” levels. The highest typical Grade is 3 (denoting 3 millionths sphericity or better), then 5, then 10, etc….. Bearing companies use different grades depending on the bearing precision and application.

How Much Longer Life Can Be Expected From Hybrid Bearings Vs. Steel?
This is a tough question. Generally speaking, one can expect 2 to 5 times longer life for most applications, but it is highly dependent on operating conditions, bearing design, etc….

What Ceramic Ball Sizes Are Available?
This is an easy question. Ceramic balls are readily available from 0.5 mm (about 1/64”) to 25mm (1”) in a variety of ball grades. Ceramic balls can be made up to 3” (75mm) in diameter. The most popular sized balls tend to be from 1mm to 13 mm in terms of quantity used.

How Can I Buy Ceramic Balls?
We’re so glad you asked!! You can use the contact us inquiry page on this web-site

What Are The Draw-Backs Or Limitations To Using Ceramic Balls?
We’d like to say there are none, but Ceramic balls cannot be used for every application. A stiffer ball can increase contact stresses if raceway curvatures are not adjusted. For extremely high load applications, silicon nitride balls may not be suitable since they may accelerate steel raceway fatigue. Also, silicon nitride balls are more costly than steel balls and while they continue to be more and more affordable, they may not be economical for every application despite longer life and enhanced performance.

(taken from quantumprecisiongroup dot com)
nice read. and it really makes me want to trade out my new steel bearings for a ceramic hybrid or full ceramic)

[rodcpierce]

you guys should honestly look into the swiss R/C bearings. You cant find a better bearing, and could likely pick up the set for 35.00-40.00 but they are the best bearings that you can buy, period. (this coming from an R/C guy)

[ultreef]

I used to be into radio control as well. That's the reason why i say there gotta be a bearing out there that's better then the stock Vortech ones. Mass manufactured items rarely utilities the best components.

you guys should honestly look into the swiss R/C bearings. You cant find a better bearing, and could likely pick up the set for 35.00-40.00 but they are the best bearings that you can buy, period. (this coming from an R/C guy)

[sjm817]

Ok, bearing experts, what would be the ultimate in quiet bearings for the Vortech? Would they make a substantial difference in a dry side with bearings that are in good shape, not worn out?

[christyf5]

Wow this is just awesome!! Thanks for posting and in such detail :thumbsup:

The bearings on my gen 1 vortech are also shot and are super noisy. Lucky I got it for a smokin deal secondhand but I hate the noise so I only run it at just barely higher than the lowest setting. Any higher and it sounds like it is going to rattle apart.

Now to the fun part. I know zero about these, I have taken mine apart to see what the issue is at the insistence of a friend who was dying to see the insides of it. We couldn't find anything amiss but he suggested that it might be the bearings. Sadly, I didn't even know what the bearings looked like and was confused by your "before" and "after" bearings replacement photos (after some quick googling I have it figured out).

However, I'd like to try the ceramic bearings and don't know how to go about ordering them without specific part numbers. Can I just order them via the size you have listed? They're kind of pricey which is fine but I hate wasting money (one is $12 and the other is $18 from an auction site) and I have no local store to shop at.

For the ceramic ones I'm seeing:

607-2RS Bearing 7 x 19 x 6
698-2RS Bearing 8 x 19 x 6

The brand is VXB Ball Bearings and they are ABEC-5 quality

Are these correct? Just wanted to check before I order.

Thanks
Christy :)

[dahenley]

607-2RS Bearing 7 x 19 x 6
698-2RS Bearing 8 x 19 x 6

the
"698 - XXX"
and
"607 - XXX"

are the bearing numbers. the letters after the number describe the seals/sheilds that they come with.
there is no letter or number for ceramic. its the same number, just labeled as ceramic.

the size of the 607 bearing is " 7 X 19 X 6 "
and
the size of the 698 bearing is " 8 X 19 X 6 "

i hope this helps explain to everyone what they need.

[christyf5]

the
"698 - XXX"
and
"607 - XXX"

are the bearing numbers. the letters after the number describe the seals/sheilds that they come with.
there is no letter or number for ceramic. its the same number, just labeled as ceramic.

the size of the 607 bearing is " 7 X 19 X 6 "
and
the size of the 698 bearing is " 8 X 19 X 6 "

i hope this helps explain to everyone what they need.

Perfect!!! Thanks! :beer:

[Rosscopeco]

Interesting read. I pulled mine apart a while back and found the same problem with the bearings.
All in all the internals are pretty basic.

[diciple]

wonder what size bearing fits the mp 10 ecotech mines brand new and noisy

[FLGator56]

I have 2 MP10s I just bought new and 1 was a lot louder than the other. Sent it in and in less than a week it came back and is dead silent even at 100%. The other one "whirrrs" at 100% but is barely noticeable. I'll probably send that one back in a bit too. Wonder if they just drop in better bearings for the fix when sending back?

A bit of a pain but really like these....and very good customer service...

[Saltyfin]

just finished taking mine apart(mp10). it seems that both bearings are the 607 bearing but im going to head to the bearing store tomorrow and see what they have. I also googled the part number and it would seem R/C bearing are also the same size and the hobbie town in my neak of the woods carries the novarossi ceramic bearings so if i cant find the standard bearings i might go ahead and get the ceramics. After i finsish this completely ill post the how to but its really just the same as the mp40 only difference is that the base plate that mounts to the glass is actually glued on instead of screwed.

[Hawkdl2]

Keep in mind the grade of the bearing has as much or more importance in determining the quality of a bearing as does the material it is made of. Bearings can be graded for their races as ABEC 1, 3, 5, 7 where 7 is the best, but with 5 often being the best cost/performance grade, or for their bearings. Bearing grades are a measurement of the roundness of a bearing with the lower numbers (e.g. 25) being better than a higher number (often 1000 or more). In addition "ceramic" may mean ceramic balls in a steel race or ceramic on ceramic. Ceramic bearings are not by default better than steel, but high grade ceramic bearings are "better" than high grade steel in some application, but primarily in high heat, high speed, high load, applications. know the grade of the bearing before shelling out extra money for the hype. Comparing equally graded steel to ceramic, the ceramic wins out in some applications for weight, resistance (less lubrication needed), but are a wash in many application where steel is cheaper and more than adequate. A lot of cheap low-grade ceramic bearings are sold to people who simply want to believe.

[marioensf]

Thx !!

[dahenley]

very well said Hawkdl2

[RokleM]

Great post and idea. As mentioned, bearings DO go bad over time. They're a part that wears and there isn't anything you can really do about it. Great info from Hawkdl2. As well, note there are sealed and greaseable (open) bearings as well. It's my hunch sealed would work a little better (as you don't want to be tearing it apart to grease all the time), but again they won't last forever.

Quality WILL matter and bad or poor quality bearings will grind, not be smooth, and make a ton of noise.

For local pickup, look for any hobby shop, specifically one that has remote control cars (the hobby where I learned more about bearings than I ever want to). Depending on the brands the shop carries, they may have either metric or standard, and will vary in quality. If the measurements are correct, the only thing you need to tell them is:

No flange, sealed (vs open) and metric 7 X 19 X 6 and 8 X 19 X 6.

[SWINGRRRR]

A lot of cheap low-grade ceramic bearings are sold to people who simply want to believe.
I wish I would have seen this a couple hours ago. I ordered 2 ceramics off Ebay for about $30 total. I hope they are not the cheap low-grades. They are both ABEC-5 so hopefully it wont be to bad.

[dahenley]

Keep in mind the grade of the bearing has as much or more importance in determining the quality of a bearing as does the material it is made of. Bearings can be graded for their races as ABEC 1, 3, 5, 7 where 7 is the best, but with 5 often being the best cost/performance grade, or for their bearings.

Swingrrr, you should be ok with a grade 5 bearing.

[Saltyfin]

i finished it it ended up being a 687zz bearing for the mp10. ill post the pictures as soon as i upload it.

[snaza]

Cool thread. Anyone else try this yet?

[luv951]

Can you guys describe "noisy" a little better. I just bought two MP10s and when the ramp up and down, you can hear them...its more of a whirrr than anything else. No rattle, unless they are not lined up correctly. Just the sound of the motor whirring up to speed and back down again. I wonder if I should look into cracking these things open to put some new bearings in there. Dead silent to me means no whirring sound, no any sound....

SaltyFin - please post a write up when you get a chance.

[dahenley]

LUV951, a friend of mine has a new MP10W (non ES) and it does make some noise. after a few weeks, it has quieted down.
Vortech pumps will never be DEAD silent like a full internal pump. this is because there is no water to hide or muffle the sounds of the pumps.

[luv951]

That's reassuring. Thanks!

[drdoolittle]

nice.. cool thread.. thanks

[dahenley]

Glad it helped.

Has anyone else ventured into doing this

[seashark]

i did and used ceramic bearings first didnt like the sound of it , then changed those to steal bearings, now it woks great and i cant even hear it,:cool:

[dahenley]

really!! thats very interesting to know.
do you think they were just cheap ceramic bearings, or needed to break in, or do you not know? (very curious)
also, do you think it could be from installing them? maybe ceramic bearings are too delicate to be pressed on?

[marioensf]

Does anyone have a link to the press for the bearings?

Thx

[drdoolittle]

+1 , i need to buy some as well..

[marioensf]

Hi Ed !!

[dahenley]

i used a bearing press. and on the other side, i just used 2 screw drivers. (just be careful!!!)

and i used something like this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SMALL-BEARING-SEPARATOR-2-1-4-Capacity-NEW-CAL-HAWK-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27b518ca69QQitemZ170542025321QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools

[marioensf]

Thanks !!

[drdoolittle]

Mario!! let me know where you buy your bearings.. i need some as well. I have one noisy pump..

[marioensf]

NP Ed I'll check the local hobby shop and pm you.

[RedHeckle]

Any updates from anyone who's replaced their bearings? I picked up a used MP40 and it's noisy enough to hear from 20ft away (whirring sound, more evident during when rpms ramp up). I plan on replacing the bearings and will see what's available locally at the RC shops; otherwise, bocabearings.com has alot of options.

Thanks,
Glenn

[Rosscopeco]

Can anyone tell me what the correct order of the washers is? I pulled mine apart ages ago and forgot the order of the washers that sit between the bearings and the motor casing.:thumbsup:

[dahenley]

i think mine just had a spring washer and a flat washer. in page 1, you can see the spring washer toward the bearing/mag. so i would say put it there, and the flat washers if any between the spring washer and case.

the washers go on the back side of the Dry side. that way they push toward the glass and arnt fighting the magnets pulling on each other.

[GlassReef]

Great thread, David! Very well done and easy to understand. :)

[borderjo]

this is a fantastic thread. I have been shopping for a bargain MP40, but was afraid to get a worn one. Nice to know you can upgrade some major problems easily even for an old one.

I also heard that you can do a firmware upgrade of a GEN1 to a GEN2, but until I get my hands on one I can't verify it.

[Rosscopeco]

i think mine just had a spring washer and a flat washer. in page 1, you can see the spring washer toward the bearing/mag. so i would say put it there, and the flat washers if any between the spring washer and case.

the washers go on the back side of the Dry side. that way they push toward the glass and arnt fighting the magnets pulling on each other.

That makes sense. I'm at work now so it will have to wait until this evening.
Thanks.

[seashark]

really!! thats very interesting to know.
do you think they were just cheap ceramic bearings, or needed to break in, or do you not know? (very curious)
also, do you think it could be from installing them? maybe ceramic bearings are too delicate to be pressed on?

dont know i did wait for week or so to see if the sound would get better, but it did't change , now that i think about that they may be, about installing them i was carefull too, i dont think that was a reason.

[Eurobeaner]

i picked up a noisy mp40 also. ordered my bearings. abec 5, non ceramic. ~$30 shipped for 2 abec 5 bearings, and hopefully a quiet MP40!

[Wrench]

These bearings can be purchased from Grainger either online or at your local store.

[dahenley]

These bearings can be purchased from Grainger either online or at your local store.

yes, you can find these bearings anywhere.
Local bearing stores, Hobby stores, Online for sure!

[XSiVE]

These bearings can be purchased from Grainger either online or at your local store.

I couldnt find any of the 698zz 8x19x6 size on grainger's website, am I missing something?

[Wrench]

Call them. They have good sales people that can cross it.

[Eurobeaner]

i had an interesting issue....

i had a rather noisy dry side. i got me some bearings(ended up being ceramic after all), put them in, put it on.... 10x louder than before(not nasty knocking loud, just a louder wirring sound). i was mad. let it run on full blast all night to see if it would quiet down, nope. woke up this morning, took it apart 2 more times... nothing looked out of place. so i switched one of my 3 washers from one side, to under the spring washer (testing something) same noise.

then i took it off and let it run when NOT attached to the glass. it was silent. put it on the glass, noisy. hmmmmm. so i started to move the wet side ever so slightly away from the glass, it got quieter. so i remembered when i first set it up and measured my glass, i set it to one thickness more than i measured my glass to because the wet side fell off twice. started her back up at the correct thickness, viola! no noise. i guess the increased magnet force pulling the dry side motor was enough to put stress on the bearings to cause noise. phew. user error. now i can enjoy my vortech finally!

[hlsooner]

Thanks for the suggestion Eurobeaner. I just replaced my Vortech bearings with high grade ABEC5 hybrid ceramic bearings and I too now have more noise than before. I will increase the spacer distance tonight and hopefully have the same results as you.

[ducatimikep]

Can you post a link or picture to which bearing tool you are using?
Thanks

[drdoolittle]

i just changed the bearings one one of my vortech. The noise dropped alot, but its still louder than my other pumps. I must have bought a wrong bearings from ebay. I'm planning on buying other bearings just to try it out.

[dahenley]

i will say that a Vortech isnt as quiet as a internal pump like a Tunze or MJ...
The reason is because the motor noise isnt muffled by the water and tank. its on the outside so it will produce some noise....
the pumps are great and move a lot of water, but if you have the ability to put them on the back of a tank, or behind something then you will be much happier.... Who knows, if they come out with a different housing that breaths and has a 2nd cover to muffle the sound, then it would be super sweet!

[drdoolittle]

When i say louder than my other pumps.. i meant to say. Louder than my other vortech pumps. After replacing the bearings, i placed two pumps side by side, without the wet side. One is my newer vortech and the other is the newly replaced bearing pump. I then powered both of them with the same settings. The vortech with new bearings was still louder than the my other vortech. The noise was less prior to replacement, but could be improve. Thats why im thinking on looking for better bearings.

I agree with your analogy about the internal pumps being much quiter, i have had tunzes pumps on my previous set up and love it. With all the hype about the vortech, i wanted to try it out for my new set up. But keeping most of my tunzes just incase the performance or noise does not meet my expectation.

[RedHeckle]

Thanks for the update!

Can you provide the details on the bearings that didn't seem to work out, so we (I) can avoid buying those?

Thanks!


i just changed the bearings one one of my vortech. The noise dropped alot, but its still louder than my other pumps. I must have bought a wrong bearings from ebay. I'm planning on buying other bearings just to try it out.

[dahenley]

Thanks for the update!

Can you provide the details on the bearings that didn't seem to work out, so we (I) can avoid buying those?

Thanks!

I would wait till he gets new bearings. It could just be out of balance, or something.
if he replaces the bearings and the noise goes down to factory, then you have an answer. if the noise doesnt change with a different brand of bearings, then its something else.....

just a thought.

[Rickyrooz1]

Nice fix!

[Saltyfin]

here it is guys the write up it fairly simple close to what the mp40 is but the only difference is that the base plate will need to be cut off and when you done reglued.

If your worried about cosmetics need not do the repair yourself as your going to do some damage to the casing

Fist you need to peel the sticker off ( once you do this it will void your warranty )



then you will see the four screws that hold the motor to the shell i removed these first when i was taking it apart but found out that the plastic on the other side just doesnt come off so easily

http://images116.fotki.com/v693/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0354-vi.jpg


I would recommend leaving those on. First your going to need to cut off the plastic cover on the side that touches the glass. I used a kitchen knife for this because i can flex it a bend it without worrying about it shattering like an x-acto or box cutter might.

http://images9.fotki.com/v1618/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0355-vi.jpg

http://public.fotki.com/damwatsyoname/marine-life/mp10-fixed/img-0357.html#media


now you remove the 3 motor screws. I used a torks t15 but i believe its a 2.5 or 2 allen key

http://public.fotki.com/damwatsyoname/marine-life/mp10-fixed/img-0355.html#media

be careful with the power cable as it is flimsy and the wires are thin. Just shimmy the motor out being careful not to pull on the cable.

http://images107.fotki.com/v71/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0357-vi.jpg

First remove the magnet from the motor this is the hard part, you might need a second person for this part, what your going to need is the allen key on one side and have someone hold the motor and useing a flat head screw driver hold the shaft on the oppisite side of the magnet as you unscrew the magnet off. There might be what you think is debris on the magnet whatever you do don't clean it off it will help center the magnet upon reassembly

then your going to remove the 3 screws that hold the 2 motor end caps together

http://images12.fotki.com/v68/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0359-vi.jpg


then you pry the cap off ( the side with out the power cable) which shouldnt be to hard to reveil the internals and the first of two bearings. you will cafefully pull the center section which is the magnet and the bearings. (careful with the magnet that part is proprietary and will not have a replacement)

http://images31.fotki.com/v1043/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0372-vi.jpg

carefully remove the two bearings (sorry i dont have a picture of this procedure as i got kind of angry that i couldnt remove it easily)

this is what i did i had a cheap fork laying around i bent one of the prongs out of the way and put the fork between the bearing and the magnet, being careful not to hit the magnet i slowly rocked the bearing back and forth and it slowly came off. The bearings aren't pressed on or anything its just and exact fit. You can also try the rocking motion with just using yout fingers. I could after i took it off the first time.

http://images58.fotki.com/v696/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0360-vi.jpg

http://images19.fotki.com/v285/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0361-vi.jpg


Once your done just replace the bearings and start the reassembly process. When i took mine apart i noticed there are 2 washers and a spring washer at the bottom for anyone that drops it or it sticks the the magnet. the order is washer, washer , spring.


http://images58.fotki.com/v85/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0371-vi.jpg

http://images57.fotki.com/v80/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0370-vi.jpg



when its time to put it back together find where the plastic fits together best and using a little bit of epoxy( i used a two part) and a toothpick dab and cap it and your done

[dahenley]

so, how does it work?

[Saltyfin]

works great.. you should have heard it before my gen-x pcx pump was quieter then this thing... not silent. im running three mp10s and by far is the quietest one out of the three

[christyf5]

just busted the magnet on mine. so much for that :(:mad2:

[on the spot]

just busted the magnet on mine. so much for that :(:mad2:

Bummer...how did you manage that? drop it?

[christyf5]

Twisted it in my hand as I was getting the screwdriver in between the bearing and shaft/main body, must have had a weak spot as a chunk came off. It was a gen 1 so who knows, maybe the magnet wasn't all that great.

Then after that I dropped it. Definitely toast.

[Saltyfin]

if its a small chip it will still work as long as your not missing a big chunk. that would throw off the balance

[Porcupinepuffer]

I would honestly REALLY avoid trying to put a screwdriver between the magnet and bearing at all costs. It's not worth it as it's so easy to chip off a small, or large piece of the magnet. I actually did the same sort of thing, I chipped a really tiny chunk off, but it didn't affect the performance... For those who do not have pullers, do what I did, as it works like a charm; clamp the bearing between a vice, with the impeller/magnet assembly hanging down(put some soft blankets underneath to catch it, for if it falls!). Find a socket or punch that'll fit on the shaft. With small taps, hit it until the shaft pushes out... If you don't have a vice, you can probably try vice grips. vice grips would probably work better as they would grab right around the bearing more rigid then a bench vice... I did this with both my bearings. It made it very easy to NOT break important parts.
Also, don't try and clamp the bearing too hard, as you could end up just squeezing the bearing harder to the shaft making it even more difficult to get the bearing moving off the shaft. Try and clamp it just hard enough to hold it for the little taps it takes to get the bearing moving off.

[kma408]

thanks, I will replace 2 of my mp40w.

[RedHeckle]

I would honestly REALLY avoid trying to put a screwdriver between the magnet and bearing at all costs. It's not worth it as it's so easy to chip off a small, or large piece of the magnet. I actually did the same sort of thing, I chipped a really tiny chunk off, but it didn't affect the performance... For those who do not have pullers, do what I did, as it works like a charm; clamp the bearing between a vice, with the impeller/magnet assembly hanging down(put some soft blankets underneath to catch it, for if it falls!). Find a socket or punch that'll fit on the shaft. With small taps, hit it until the shaft pushes out... If you don't have a vice, you can probably try vice grips. vice grips would probably work better as they would grab right around the bearing more rigid then a bench vice... I did this with both my bearings. It made it very easy to NOT break important parts.
Also, don't try and clamp the bearing too hard, as you could end up just squeezing the bearing harder to the shaft making it even more difficult to get the bearing moving off the shaft. Try and clamp it just hard enough to hold it for the little taps it takes to get the bearing moving off.

Awesome tip and "thinking outside the box"!!! Now I just have to try it! :lolspin:

[christyf5]

I would honestly REALLY avoid trying to put a screwdriver between the magnet and bearing at all costs. It's not worth it as it's so easy to chip off a small, or large piece of the magnet. I actually did the same sort of thing, I chipped a really tiny chunk off, but it didn't affect the performance... For those who do not have pullers, do what I did, as it works like a charm; clamp the bearing between a vice, with the impeller/magnet assembly hanging down(put some soft blankets underneath to catch it, for if it falls!). Find a socket or punch that'll fit on the shaft. With small taps, hit it until the shaft pushes out... If you don't have a vice, you can probably try vice grips. vice grips would probably work better as they would grab right around the bearing more rigid then a bench vice... I did this with both my bearings. It made it very easy to NOT break important parts.
Also, don't try and clamp the bearing too hard, as you could end up just squeezing the bearing harder to the shaft making it even more difficult to get the bearing moving off the shaft. Try and clamp it just hard enough to hold it for the little taps it takes to get the bearing moving off.

Dang I wish you'd posted this before I had my little "mishap" :lol2:

Anyway, some very lovely person sent me a spare dryside they had and my pump is working again. Bonus: the "new" dryside has good bearings and is nice and quiet :spin1:

[deepee33]

hello new here how are you all :)
i have a question about the bearings for the mp10 ,
what are you using for replacement?
i took mine out and measured them it came out 7 x 15 x 5 , which is different to the
ones recommended here. also i cant find 7x15x5 size anywhere and seems to be an unusual measurement . has anyone else encountered this ?
am i measuring wrong ?

[bkztrini465]

Also curious about what bearing is needed for the MP10...going to attempt this on mine.

[Stumped]

Also curious about what bearing is needed for the MP10...going to attempt this on mine.

I would like to know this as well. The dry side on my MP10 has become intolerably loud and my only other option is to purchase a new dry side for $100 so I'd rather try this first.

[CJO]

Have you guys read through this thread before asking, specifically post 48?

CJ

[Stumped]

Have you guys read through this thread before asking, specifically post 48?

CJ

I read through the thread and that post, but he doesn't follow up on the success (or failure possibly?) of his swap. Also I'm also assuming the MP10 would use two different bearings similar to the MP40, so I kind of wanted input from someone that successfully did it on exactly what size I should buy as I'd be ordering online and want to get it right before I place my order.

[CJO]

Post 41:
just finished taking mine apart(mp10). it seems that both bearings are the 607 bearing but im going to head to the bearing store tomorrow and see what they have. I also googled the part number and it would seem R/C bearing are also the same size and the hobbie town in my neak of the woods carries the novarossi ceramic bearings so if i cant find the standard bearings i might go ahead and get the ceramics. After i finsish this completely ill post the how to but its really just the same as the mp40 only difference is that the base plate that mounts to the glass is actually glued on instead of screwed.

Post 48:
i finished it it ended up being a 687zz bearing for the mp10. ill post the pictures as soon as i upload it.

CJ

[deepee33]

i concure the above -

687zz for both front and back bearings.

i swapped them , now i am back on track with the mp10 happy again :)

i'll reiterate that you have to be super careful taking them of not to damage the
middle magnet as its fairly fragile.

there will still be i guess another break in period with the new bearings so im hoping they will get even more quite. but at the moment they are not silent but 90% better than they were. for me thats enough for now. until ecotech come up with a silent housing , as i feel that it amplifies alot of the motor sound.
or i guess i would consider a completely submersed version with driver, a la tunze nano with controller.

[Stumped]

i concure the above -

687zz for both front and back bearings.

i swapped them , now i am back on track with the mp10 happy again :)



Thanks for the confirmation, I'm going to have to order some and give it a go I guess.

[BowieReefer84]

Hello, are these the bearings for MP10? Link http://www.amazon.com/S687ZZ-Bearing-7x14x5-Ceramic-Stainless/dp/B002BBHEBY

Mine is LOUD. I am getting a replacement wetside because the prop came apart from the magnet (my own fault), but if this does not work I will get new bearings I guess....

Thanks

[deepee33]

yes that looks to be the right bearings.

[MrGone]

haha nice! NTN makes the throw out bearings for a lot of clutches, I got a kick out of that.

[Flazky]

if somebody could post a video on youtube of the noise difference, that would be awesome!

[kcress]

I asked because I think there is room for improvement over the stock NMB ones. But i'm no expert in bearings.

My vortechs are perfectly fine. They aren't dead silent, but maybe there is a compatible bearing out there that's better? less noise, less resistants and last longer? Maybe someone that knows bearing can help.

Thanks.




There are about five grades of bearings. The higher the grade the more round and accurate the bearings. The more round and accurate the quieter. So if you want the most quiet result you want to buy the $30~40 dollar bearings not the flea bay $4 ones. However you may be wasting your money in the big scheme as the noise difference between the cheapo and deluxe bearing may be completely swallowed up by the dry side or other tank noises.


Very Nice write up dahenley.

[wieselsport]

I cant seem to find the 698 bearings at grainger or some other online places.

Anyone else have better luck?

[reefnut guy]

I have a newer mp40 and it also make a considerable amount of noise. Does anyone know if the bearing sizes remain the same in newer units? Or what is the newest vortech (mp40) thats been fixed.

[dahenley]

Anyone else try this?
just curious as to everyones success?

[Dino]

Anybody have anymore info regarding the ceramic bearings? Just from reading through this thread got the feeling some were saying they were noisier than the steel ball bearings. I have an MP10 though and about the only 687zz bearings I can find are ceramic ball ones unless I buy a 10 bearing lot of cheaper ones but I'm not sure how good they are :D.

Might just have to try this if I can find some bearings, several months ago the bearings on my MP10 dry side started growling. It got so bad had to turn it down to even hear the TV over it. At that time I just replaced the whole dry side which is now starting to get noisier too. I got an extra dry side with junk bearings just collecting dust in the closet, might as well try and fix it. :D

[Sisterlimonpot]

I've been reading up on bearings and never knew there was so much that went into a bearing. I too have been reading mixed emotions about ceramic and wonder if it's even necessary, these motors aren't ran at high RPM's (rated at 24,000+ RPM max) and the thrust applied to them aren't that great either (maybe the known out of balance magnet). An ABEC rating of 5 would be more than enough for this application. So I'm leaning towards a stainless steel abec 5, or equivalent.

Cody, have you looked at Granger? I have one a couple miles away, I was going to call them tomorrow and see if they have them in stock. I also notice that some bearings don't have a rating other than the material it's made from, but for tolerances they don't specify, I saw that another way of rating that you may see are ISO (International Organization for Standardization) and DIN (German National Standards Organization) which are opposite than the ABEC rating which is the higher the number the tighter the tolerance, the other 2 (ISO and DIN) are the lower the number the tighter the tolerance.

I guess the question is at what point will spending the extra $$ for ceramic and/or more precise bearing tolerances be counterproductive for the vortech?

I think if the motor was balanced (specifically the magnet) then the tighter tolerances would make a huge difference but I foresee that because of the shimmy it's going to amplify the vibration and make things worse.

[Dino]

I've looked online (just right before my post up there^). They don't even list anything for 687zz bearings. Looked at McMaster-Carr too but they don't list anything for 7x14x5 bearings either.

About the only place I've really found them so far is here...
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit8047

They have the expensive ceramic ones or some cheaper buggers that come in a 10 pack. Wondering if these might not be fine to use
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/kit762

I don't really wanna spend $60 on bearings only to find out they're noisier than the factory bearings on my dry side now. :lol:

[Sisterlimonpot]

Wow, those are expensive, you can definitely see the price jump from abec 5 to 7. after I call tomorrow, I will post some prices (if they have them).Here are some for under $12 (http://www.bocabearings.com/bearing-inventory/Radial-Bearings/8214/SMR147CYZZ5NB2-7x14x5)

[Dino]

Good find! :D

[Sisterlimonpot]

I contacted Granger and spoke with a representitive, out of the 3 bearings (MP40 7X19X6, 8X19X6 and MP10 7X14X5) they only had one in their inventory which was the 7X19X6 (607ZZ) for $6.72 each.They couldn't give me the specs on what the APEC/ISO rating was.
looks like unless you only need that bearing it's better to find a place that carries all of them.

Has anyone else performed this task?

[nemosworld]

mp10:
http://www.rc-bearings.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1174

[friendlyAlien]

Now here is the question: Wouldn't a high quality bearing also use less electricity for the same flow? Or ... another way of asking: Wouldn't you not only get a quieter operation but also more flow?

I would be interested in what the differences are ... seems to me quieter is only one of the benefits of a higher quality bearing.

[Napi Napoli]

Does anyone have links on the best bearings for an mp40 please

Thanks

[Sisterlimonpot]

7X19X6 (http://www.amazon.com/607-2RS-Bearing-7x19x6-Si3N4-Ceramic/dp/B002BBLVQ8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1298527060&sr=1-1)

and

8X19X6 (http://www.amazon.com/698-2RS-Bearing-8x19x6-Si3N4-Ceramic/dp/B002BBCUVS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1298527150&sr=1-1)

[Napi Napoli]

7X19X6 (http://www.amazon.com/607-2RS-Bearing-7x19x6-Si3N4-Ceramic/dp/B002BBLVQ8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1298527060&sr=1-1)

and

8X19X6 (http://www.amazon.com/698-2RS-Bearing-8x19x6-Si3N4-Ceramic/dp/B002BBCUVS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1298527150&sr=1-1)



Thank you!!

[Dino]

Thought I'd give this thread an update as I just got done replacing the bearings on my MP10 :D.

I've been meaning to fix my noisy MP10 for several months now but just hadn't because it wasn't bugging quite enough to push me to finally order some bearings. Until the past couple weeks when it really started getting bad. The past couple weeks it was so noisy I actually had it turned completely down and you could still very clearly hear it growling even with the TV on in the same room.

So I ordered two replacement bearings from Bocabearing...

Shipped right out and got here yesterday. So replaced them today, if I would have known how relatively painless replacing them was I would have done it a LONG time ago. $37 is also a lot easier to swallow than over $100 for a new MP10 dry side. My vortech is now whisper quiet again. Even going 100% flat out you pretty much have to look in the tank or put your hand on the dry side to tell that it is running.

This is a relatively easy fix *PROVIDED* you have a little bit of mechanical/DIY knowledge and the right tools to do it with. My dad is a mechanic so we have an entire garage filled with all kinds of specialized tools including pullers and presses. The part that took the longest and was the most difficult on mine was just getting the outer plastic case on the dry side cracked open. On the MP10 the two pieces of the outer case are held together with contact cement so you have to pry and just fidge with it until you get it apart.

Thanks so much for this thread dahenley!

Now if I could just find where the weird whistling from my skimmer is coming from...

[dahenley]

Glad to hear its still helping people out!!

mine is great, and if in the future it needs another set of bearings, it wouldn't hesitate to do it again!

[Silfer]

I've got my MP20 (same as MP40) apart, but cannot for the life of me get the bearings off.

Tried the use a fork with 1 prong bent back approach, got it under 1 bearing, wiggled and all sorts but no go... any tips?

Even if I do get that one bearing off the other is near flush with the magnet, not sure how i'd get anything under it.

I assume the shaft is attached to the magnet.

Thanks

[dahenley]

shaft is attached to the magnet

a fork is not a good tool to use....
you need a bearing press/splitter.

i posted pictures/link to one earlier in the thread.

http://www.toolsource.com/prod_medium/62715.jpg

it is made for removing bearings from shafts. its also low profile with tapered pieces to where it can get in low profile places.

the bearings are tight on the shaft and have to be. if they are loose then they can spin and gall the shaft and cause more heat.

if you know a mechanic friend, or have a mechanic that does all your work, then they may allow you to use one of theirs. (it wont take but a min to get both off, and if you have a vice, then its easy to get them on.)

[Silfer]

cant seem to find one in the UK low profile enough to fit under the bearings.

[dahenley]

A second option is to put the bearing in a vice (lightly) with magnet pointing down and use a flat bottom drift (punch/chisel) and lightly tap on the shaft and drive it through the bearing. If you can have a 2nd person to help hold the magnet to prevent it from falling, breaking, chipping, shattering, ect.

It will work with 0 clearance. Just be careful and take it slow.

[Silfer]

Okso got the bearings off (drilled a hole larger than magnet in a thick piece of wood), then stuck a thin bit of metal (but strong metal) under either side of one of the bearings.. rested this through the hole then using a hole punch just smaller than the shaft diameter carefully punched the shaft off.

Now.. I have the 2 correct replacement bearings.. but I read somewhere they have to go on the right way round (not talking 8mm on one side 7mm on the other, that is clearly visibly), but I read the bearings themselves have to go a certain way round?

I can't see any marker on the bearings I bought that would say this.. does it matter or can I just take a bearing and put it on?

Thanks

[Silfer]

well bearings replaced and it still makes a racket :(

[dahenley]

What type of bearing did you use? Also, is it noisy without the wetside? Or with it?

[dahenley]

Also, if it makes noise without the wetside, take the magnet off to ensure that it is a bearing.

I have purchased some bearings locally, and they were amazingly noisy, and then bought different bearings from a different supplier and it was dead silent.
Just saying

[Silfer]

noisy with/without, it's the dry side that's noisy.

bearings were just standard ones bought locally.. might have to shell out for some abec-5 ceramic bearings?

[Silfer]

still noisy with the magnet off, not as bad but can definately hear the bearings..

[dahenley]

None of mine were ceramic..

I purchased eBay bearings for my vortech and they were 110% more quiet then local bearings, and in fact are what I'm currently using

Someone on here got ceramic bearings and said they were loud.... just saying, you may go somewhere else and try 1 more time with regular bearings.

Also, make sure your bearings are seated all the way, because if not, they will be noisier then they should

[Sisterlimonpot]

Silver, did you buy abec5 steel bearings?

[Hesham]

shaft is attached to the magnet

a fork is not a good tool to use....
you need a bearing press/splitter.

i posted pictures/link to one earlier in the thread.

http://www.toolsource.com/prod_medium/62715.jpg

it is made for removing bearings from shafts. its also low profile with tapered pieces to where it can get in low profile places.

the bearings are tight on the shaft and have to be. if they are loose then they can spin and gall the shaft and cause more heat.

if you know a mechanic friend, or have a mechanic that does all your work, then they may allow you to use one of theirs. (it wont take but a min to get both off, and if you have a vice, then its easy to get them on.)


What size of bearing separator did you use?

[Silfer]

Silver, did you buy abec5 steel bearings?

not sure, they were just cheap eBay ones to see if it made ANY difference.

Is abec-5 ceramic or steel reccommended?

[dahenley]

What size of bearing separator did you use?

I ordered a 3" one from Ebay. (harbor freight only had large ones)
andi got impatient so i used the method by putting the bearing in a vice. and driving it out with a drift.

although i did use the separator plate on a few Iwaki pumps that i use on Calcium reactors and such. they are set up the same way and use a magnet drive assy that looks like the Vortech except the magnet is different. and it works. (i used to use some huge separator plates when i would take bearings that measured in excess of 10" when working in the OilField.

[Silfer]

if you don't want to buy a separator, here is the DIY method I used, works very well:

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50771

you need basic tools, ie drill, some wood and a piece of metal thin enough to slot under.. I used two metal pain scrapers, one under "each side" of the bearing then used the flat end of a drill bit just below the size of the shaft with a hammer to punch it off the bearing.

Works well.

[mikeb86150]

I just wanted to add...I run boca bearings in my 3d rc helicopters and have for a long time, they seem to make a quality product that holds up very well at 2200 RPM head speeds and there's a whole lot more forces at work in a 3d helicopter then a mp40. Maybe overkill, but they seem very high quality in my application.

[Johan van aardt]

Guys just to make sure, were do the washers sit inside the motor?

mine standard had three washers in the back and one spring washer in the front, not sure if thats correct.

[dahenley]

on my MP40, i had 2 or 3 (i cant remember, but i regret not taking a picture of it.......)

but, all of mine were in the back. no washers in the front. as far as order, i cant help you with that, but i would think that 2 flat washer would be on the motor side and the spring washer on the housing side..

[Johan van aardt]

thats weird my spring washer was on the front and the three normal washers on the back. i made it one in front, two in back aswell as spring washer in back and its much more silent now than it was. still a slight vibration tho

[dahenley]

it could be an evolution thing. (my MP40 was a Gen1 which was a simple pump with not controlling other then initial speed)
so who knows.

[Johan van aardt]

i changed it around, spring washer on back, one washer on front and the rest on back and its much quieter now.

[taklein65]

Please let me know but wouldn't the spring washer need to be in the front to off set the pull of the magnets and keep the proper spacing inside the housing.

[Johan van aardt]

im not sure, i know its much quiter now than the other way around. there is only one more way i can try it and if that doesnt work then it will stay like this.

I have a freind who works for a company that custom makes motors like these so im going to ask them to have a look if i dont come right.

[dahenley]

The spring washer doesn't have enough tension to fight the magnet. Its used to make up any variance in machining and bearing tolerances. Its to prevent the bearings from walking in the housing and such.

[ssm05rsx]

So what bearings should I buy to repair my mp40

Should I go Ceramic? or go normal stainless steel.

I see I need 607-ZZ and one 698-ZZ

but I am afraid to buy some bearings thats won't be ABEC-5

[Sisterlimonpot]

The reports are that the ceramics are louder. Go with stainless steel.

[aka_Willy]

i changed it around, spring washer on back, one washer on front and the rest on back and its much quieter now.

Johan

I would leave it where it is!!!! You have found the sweet spot!!!
I have raced RC cars for years. Electric and Nitro. Not all electric armatures are the same. You can set your armature in the magnets and it will move up or down ever so slightly. This is the sweet spot!! This is where IT wants to be shimmed. Also the most powerful and efficient.

Also I preferred steel bearings. Most new modified Nitro motors come with ceramic bearings, but I change them out right away now. One motor let go after 3 races. These motors are not cheap. lol About twice an MP40. Yes they have less spinup, but honestly I cant tell the difference on the track. They are NOT as durable.

BOCA Bearings rock!!! These are my bearings of choice!!!

[ssm05rsx]

What ratings for Stainless steel are people going with? Should I look into 5?

[Sisterlimonpot]

I used ABEC5 and it's just as quiet as it was brand new.

[mistaflicksta]

subscribed

[FiReC]

what bearings had good results for the mp10?

[melonz]

good info on here. subscribed

[dahenley]

My eBay bearings were the cheapest and actually more quiet then local bearing shop bearings for my MP 40.

[4realestate]

awesome information.
Thank you.

[slammin]

great write up...a quick question, can someone specify exactly which bearings i need for a MP10?

Saltyfin mentioned a 687zz, and the 607 in a post before that, would i need one of each? or are they both 687zz?

I need to replace 2 bearings right?

thanks!

[dahenley]

There are 2 bearings in your vortech, YES

You are taking it apart to fix it, and since it is apart and your in there, YES you should replace both.

On bearings, most of the bearings listed were for the MP40. A few pages back,someone did a MP10 and posted pictures as well as bearing sizes for the MP10.

If you find that part, it will say which bearings you need.

Also, when you take yours apart, look for washers and make sure you put them back where they go.
have fun

[slammin]

here it is guys the write up it fairly simple close to what the mp40 is but the only difference is that the base plate will need to be cut off and when you done reglued.

If your worried about cosmetics need not do the repair yourself as your going to do some damage to the casing

Fist you need to peel the sticker off ( once you do this it will void your warranty )



then you will see the four screws that hold the motor to the shell i removed these first when i was taking it apart but found out that the plastic on the other side just doesnt come off so easily

http://images116.fotki.com/v693/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0354-vi.jpg


I would recommend leaving those on. First your going to need to cut off the plastic cover on the side that touches the glass. I used a kitchen knife for this because i can flex it a bend it without worrying about it shattering like an x-acto or box cutter might.

http://images9.fotki.com/v1618/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0355-vi.jpg

http://public.fotki.com/damwatsyoname/marine-life/mp10-fixed/img-0357.html#media


now you remove the 3 motor screws. I used a torks t15 but i believe its a 2.5 or 2 allen key

http://public.fotki.com/damwatsyoname/marine-life/mp10-fixed/img-0355.html#media

be careful with the power cable as it is flimsy and the wires are thin. Just shimmy the motor out being careful not to pull on the cable.

http://images107.fotki.com/v71/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0357-vi.jpg

First remove the magnet from the motor this is the hard part, you might need a second person for this part, what your going to need is the allen key on one side and have someone hold the motor and useing a flat head screw driver hold the shaft on the oppisite side of the magnet as you unscrew the magnet off. There might be what you think is debris on the magnet whatever you do don't clean it off it will help center the magnet upon reassembly

then your going to remove the 3 screws that hold the 2 motor end caps together

http://images12.fotki.com/v68/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0359-vi.jpg


then you pry the cap off ( the side with out the power cable) which shouldnt be to hard to reveil the internals and the first of two bearings. you will cafefully pull the center section which is the magnet and the bearings. (careful with the magnet that part is proprietary and will not have a replacement)

http://images31.fotki.com/v1043/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0372-vi.jpg

carefully remove the two bearings (sorry i dont have a picture of this procedure as i got kind of angry that i couldnt remove it easily)

this is what i did i had a cheap fork laying around i bent one of the prongs out of the way and put the fork between the bearing and the magnet, being careful not to hit the magnet i slowly rocked the bearing back and forth and it slowly came off. The bearings aren't pressed on or anything its just and exact fit. You can also try the rocking motion with just using yout fingers. I could after i took it off the first time.

http://images58.fotki.com/v696/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0360-vi.jpg

http://images19.fotki.com/v285/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0361-vi.jpg


Once your done just replace the bearings and start the reassembly process. When i took mine apart i noticed there are 2 washers and a spring washer at the bottom for anyone that drops it or it sticks the the magnet. the order is washer, washer , spring.


http://images58.fotki.com/v85/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0371-vi.jpg

http://images57.fotki.com/v80/photos/6/210466/9213694/IMG_0370-vi.jpg



when its time to put it back together find where the plastic fits together best and using a little bit of epoxy( i used a two part) and a toothpick dab and cap it and your done

thanks for the reply Dahenley, i've reread this a few times, not being able to find the correct bearing model#. although he does mention in one post that he used 687zz, I was just curious if both bearings are the same model?

[dahenley]

687 is your bearing number.
On the MP10, both bearings are the same. (the MP40 uses 2 different bearings)

I see where you got confused, he speculated the other bearing was what he needed. (he was the first to do the MP10, so he thought it was the same)

Them MP10 uses totaly different bearings then the 40.

hope that helps.
(page 5 at the top few posts, have the confirmation to this.)

If you do it, let us know how it goes.
Good Luck!

[dahenley]

also, the letters after the Bearing Number just speculate if it has metal or rubber seals or what not. so the actual number is the important part. not the letters. (although, if you get the option, i would get a "sealed" bearing verses a "sheilded" bearing.

[dahenley]

MP-40 BEARINGS
(note, the MP-40 uses 2 differrent beraings. 1 for the front and 1 for the rear)

"698 - XXX"
and
"607 - XXX"

are the bearing numbers. the letters after the number describe the seals/sheilds that they come with.
there is no letter or number for ceramic. its the same number, just labeled as ceramic.

the size of the 607 bearing is " 7 X 19 X 6 "
and
the size of the 698 bearing is " 8 X 19 X 6 "


MP-10 Bearing
(note, the MP-10 uses 2 of the same bearings)

"687 - XXX"

the size of the 687 bearing is " 7 x 14 X 5 "


are the bearing numbers. the letters after the number describe the seals/sheilds that they come with.
there is no letter or number for ceramic. its the same number, just labeled as ceramic.

i hope this helps explain to everyone what they need.

[slammin]

Thank you very much dahenley!

clears it up completely, i'm going to locally source the bearings and will post how it works out.. <- hoping for the best here!

[Sisterlimonpot]

you may get lucky and find them at an rc hobby store or a skate shop.

[dahenley]

dont use skate shop bearings.......
They arnt HIGH speed rated. (i did this when i re-built a blueline 10 pump on my CA reactor, and THEY WERE SOOOO LOUD!!!!

skate bearings are made for lower speeds/rpm's and are made to be lubed frequently...

(just my experience with them.... )

[jeffreylam1132]

Awesome thread! Great job, dahenley.

[FiReC]

I tried a couple of these in my mp10

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7471

still loud as hell. if anybody knows any quiet bearings for the mp10 let me know please!

as a side note.. one of my original bearings (thing is only 1.5 years old!) was totally bound up.. and takes lots of force to rotate it compared to a good bearing. I believe this is why its loud + plus I was never able to crank it up all the way without the driver powering down.. probably because of a disconnect overload from the bad bearing! at least with the new bearings I can crank it up all the way.

[dahenley]

my bearings got quieter after a little use. (breaking in i guess)

Is your vortech noisy, or loud.
Noisy like the bearings are growling, or loud because the motor is on the outside where you can hear it.

If you take the wetside off, and run the vortech, is it more quiet? if so, it can be a miss alignment. or noisy wetside.

[FiReC]

when its just the dryside guts.. even without the circular magnet.. it still has a 'whiny' noise that is nowhere near to what it was new.

[dahenley]

do you have a local bearing place?
if so, ask if they carry "NTN" bearings in that size. they are good quality bearings.
I have gotten some mass manufacturered beraings from a local place, and they were nasty loud, but i have never gotten a NTN bearing that as noisy.
its a thought.

[FiReC]

what kind of places in texas there sell bearings? i'm sure somebody in phoenix has bearings I just don't know who?

[dahenley]

If you have a mom and pop auto parts store, they can help you. (New parts stores can't help you unless you have a VIN number)

Depending on how industrialized your city is, just look up bearings in the yellow pages.
There were 2 major ones back home, and here in Lubbock, there are 10 or more. (Has to do with industry and farming )

Hope that helps

[psykobowler]

I love this thread. Now, if someone could do a mod that will improve the wetside and not have it break every so often it would be a real money saver. I just could not believe ecotech is not saying or doing anything to improve the wetside on the mp40. They got the wetside right with the mp10 and mp60. Why not make one for the mp40? I guess they want to make more money on the parts. In fact, they raised the price on a lot of the parts in their replacement store. It just does not make us a happy customer.

[Gill_bucket]

Yikes!!! I have read this is a sure fire way to burn out the motor on you vortec.

i had an interesting issue....

i had a rather noisy dry side. i got me some bearings(ended up being ceramic after all), put them in, put it on.... 10x louder than before(not nasty knocking loud, just a louder wirring sound). i was mad. let it run on full blast all night to see if it would quiet down, nope. woke up this morning, took it apart 2 more times... nothing looked out of place. so i switched one of my 3 washers from one side, to under the spring washer (testing something) same noise.

then i took it off and let it run when NOT attached to the glass. it was silent. put it on the glass, noisy. hmmmmm. so i started to move the wet side ever so slightly away from the glass, it got quieter. so i remembered when i first set it up and measured my glass, i set it to one thickness more than i measured my glass to because the wet side fell off twice. started her back up at the correct thickness, viola! no noise. i guess the increased magnet force pulling the dry side motor was enough to put stress on the bearings to cause noise. phew. user error. now i can enjoy my vortech finally!

[dahenley]

I love this thread. Now, if someone could do a mod that will improve the wetside and not have it break every so often it would be a real money saver. I just could not believe ecotech is not saying or doing anything to improve the wetside on the mp40. They got the wetside right with the mp10 and mp60. Why not make one for the mp40? I guess they want to make more money on the parts. In fact, they raised the price on a lot of the parts in their replacement store. It just does not make us a happy customer.

How many wet-sides have you gone through?
i still have my first one. (its as old as this thread)
I have never had a problem. (except once) i had a snail climb in and stop the propeller, which spun the magnet on the screw and melted the screw. less then 20$ worth of parts and i was up and running... and has been ever since)

I clean my wetside 2 times a year. take it out, and take the wetside apart, and soak it in PURE vinegar over night. then, i use lots of Silicone Grease on everything when it goes back together. (i even put it on the screw that goes through the impeller so it all comes apart easily in 6 months when i do it again)
When i put the wetside and the Dry side together, i put my ear on the glass, and move the wet side. you can physically hear when its lined up. you cant hear it away from the glass, but if your ear is on the glass... you can deff tell. its the best way to do it in my opinion.


Please, let me know your experience.

[Sisterlimonpot]

wow. you're one of the few that have had their wetside for so long. it seems like every 6 months I have to replace the inards of the 40's wetside. the problem I see with them is that the prop and magnet aren't balanced and because the prop shaft is only supported on one side it wears the bushings very quickly. I have 2 extra wetsides that I need to replace the inards so I can be ready to replace them with the dirty ones. they are a pain and would also like to see a new wetside that has the shaft supported on both sides. who knows maybe they are working on it.

[dahenley]

maybe im' just lucky........

but next time anyone re-builds or takes their wet side off for a clean, when you put it back on, place your ear on the glass and do that method for centering.
(because i cant place my ear on the side glass where my MP40 is, i place my ear on the front. the harmonics are trasfered so you can still center it. if your like me and dont have enough room to place your ear on the same side as the glass.)


If you want to try and center it your way, and the place yoru ear on the glass and move it to see if it helps or if you can hear a better adjustment, then feel free to post and let me and others know.

and if you do it your way and then my way, and mine is better, feel free to let others know as well.
that way more people have better luck.


BUT, i do agree, that a double supported wet-side could help. but even if not centered well, it can wear on the wet-side

[psykobowler]

I currently use 6 mp40s, 3 mp10s and as of yesterday an mp60. I have not had any of the mp10 wetside breakdown on me but I have had all 6 mp40 wetside go down on separate occasions, some needed replacing more parts than others. Either the ceramic bearings, magnets, fused screw/shaft, etc wear out. Once the whole propeller goes out of alignment, it wears out whatever is on its way. I have 2 tanks and a frag tank. Cleaning and alignment is good but it would not help in my case. I did have one wetside go down due to snail.

The wetside on the mp40 is so poorly designed - too many moving parts - all you really need is the cover and propeller/magnet but they put so many parts in it that one of them is bound to break down. The propeller also does not touch the wetside cover unlike the mp10 and mp60 wetside so there is no stability with the spin. Any snail could crawl and put the whole thing out of balance and it will wear and break after.

They had it right on the mp10 and mp60. I am suspecting that ecotech is revamping the mp40 line and will likely put out a smaller "mp60" to replace what they have. Other than that they could replace the wetside the same as the mp60 and anybody with the old mp40 will be happy.

I am actually thinking of getting rid of my mp40s since I now own the mp60 and could not believe how much better they are. My tanks are 150 gallon and 300 gallon. I am using mp10s on a 6 foot truvu frag tank. The sale of the mp40s will get me closer to replacing all my pumps sooner.

MACNA is just around the corner, I bet they are releasing a new version of the pump soon. If they replace the mp40 wetside, I will not have to get rid of my mp40s and I will be set.

[RokleM]

FYI, these guys are known in the RC world for quality bearings that take a beating at medium/high speed:
http://bocabearings.com/

[tangstank]

FYI, these guys are known in the RC world for quality bearings that take a beating at medium/high speed:
http://bocabearings.com/

When you say take a beating, do you mean handle well, or bad?

[marioensf]

means they can handle it well

[tangstank]

Thanks, I'll be ordering a few now.

[FiReC]

If anybody gets the right quiet mp10 bearings from boca let me know the specific model u got please.

[Hesham]

One of my MP40 dry sides has been noisy the last couple of months and finally stopped working.

I had purchased a while back some Boca bearings (SMR698-ZZ #5 & SMR607-ZZ #5) as well as a bearing splitter from Amazon (OTC 1122 1/8" to 2" Bearing Splitter) in anticipation of the Vortech failing.

When I opened up the Vortech, I found that one of the bearings was completely seized. I still went ahead and changed both bearings. I found that I did not need a bearing press to install the new bearings - just took some manual pressure.

The repair didn't go completely smoothly - it took me a while to figure out how to take apart the dry side, clean it, replace the bearings, and then put it back together (which I had to re-do a few times until I got it right). The repair once done has been fine - pump is about as quiet as my other pumps and best of all, I didn't have to buy a new dry side. Overall quite happy with how it went.

I like my Vortechs but it does seem that living with their performances also means living with some periodic mechanical maintenance.

[RokleM]

When you say take a beating, do you mean handle well, or bad?

means they can handle it well

Correct. I haven't personally had a need to replace mine yet, but thought I would throw a manufacture I've had good luck with in another hobby out there.

[dahenley]

Great to hear another success! Although a few bumps in the road, you still got it!

As far as the bearing press goes, I have heard some needing it and others not. I probably just depends on the person or machine that made that particular drive unit

But within all reason, if you had to replace bearings every other year, that's still less then 10$ per year maintenance. Not bad if you ask me.

[FiReC]

I think we need to start complaining more to ecotech.. warranty for only 1 year and having to basically pay 1/2 the price every 1.5 - 2 years is pretty ridiculous!

[mcrist]

I think we need to start complaining more to ecotech.. warranty for only 1 year and having to basically pay 1/2 the price every 1.5 - 2 years is pretty ridiculous!
I think replacing the bearings every 1.5 – 2 years is a worst case scenario. I have only needed to replace the bearings on one of my MP40s after four years and that was after I spilled salt water on it. I had a total of five MP40’s and only one had to be replaced.

[tangstank]

Great to hear another success! Although a few bumps in the road, you still got it!

As far as the bearing press goes, I have heard some needing it and others not. I probably just depends on the person or machine that made that particular drive unit

But within all reason, if you had to replace bearings every other year, that's still less then 10$ per year maintenance. Not bad if you ask me.

Thanks for an awesome post. I replaced Bearings on 1 of my MP40 & it is quieter than the other pumps.
If there was a rating system on RC, I would rate this thread as Most Useful.

[pelochas]

I replaced my bearing today. It did make a good difference in noise reduction. its not silent but its quite.

i spent about 3 hours trying to remove the bearings of my mp40. something with these gray colored magnet have a tight bearings to remove. i search and found other users having the same issue with the grey colored magnet. i highly recommend that a bearing splitter is purchased just like the OP did. and wrap the magnet in blue painters tape to prevent chipping damage to the magnet.

thanks for the tip
orlando

now replacing the bearings of my dart pump. its much easier removing the bearings from the pump. dissambly is more consuming but easy also.

[El richie]

hello guys well i just purchased an mp10 with what i belive to be bad bearings and was wondering if the 687zz bearings of ebay would be ok to use as replacements or should i buy them at a different place.
thanks, rich

[dahenley]

i used ebay bearings on mine, and worked great for me!

[dahenley]

although, there are higher quality bearings as described in the thread

[El richie]

cool, thanks. now any 687zz bearings work right???

[dahenley]

high speed bearings yes. you cant use "roller skate" bearings, as they are not rated for the RPM's and will be noisy. although, you can use a high speed bearing on a roller skate.

i say this, because i used a bearing that was the right number, but was available at a sporting good store because it was used for skates. it worked, but it was noisy real soon.

as mentioned, you can use a high speed quality bearing for a simple pair or skates.

so, just make sure its a quality bearing and you are covered.

[eWind22]

Does anyone know the dimensions of the MP60 bearings?

[dahenley]

Does anyone know the dimensions of the MP60 bearings?

MP 60's are still new, and should be covered under warranty...
you might get in touch with ecotech. they are really good about taking care of their customers

[kakalakasha]

I let my uncle try to muscle the hex screw out of my magnet and he stripped it.... what to do now?

[lazidog]

brave but good idea

[dahenley]

The only real thing to do is to drill the head, remove magnet, take apart as described,then use vice grips to grab the leftover screw and back it out.
Its the only real option.
Reverse drill bits suck, and extractors Dont ever work on small machine screws. And don't mess up because it would suck to have to drill and tap out the rest of the screw. Its not a problem for me or a mechanic if you know one close and trust.

If your scared to do any, you just ask your mechanic friend. It Might cost you a beer or breakfast if you choose to just have them do it. But they have the tools and nerve haha. Let us know what happens!

[kakalakasha]

So i left the house for a couple hours and left the pump out infront of my computer.
When I come home I see the magnet + bearings removed from the motor. I was excited, until I saw that he cracked the magnet. Not the ones that are located with the bearings, but I believe they're the ones that hold the pump to the glass? (the round silver ones) He literally crack the magnet completely in half, in two pieces. If this is merely just for holding the pump to the wetside through the glass, then it should be fine using a cracked one, right?
And also, it looks to me as if he could have possible cracked the screw that came from inside the bearing/magnet assembly. Im taking apart an mp10, does it make sense that the screw is approximately .5"? Seems short to me, but I wasn't here when it was taken apart.....



Last but not least, I was messing with the bearings now that its opened up, and 1 of them seems to be spinning fine while the other has an obvious grinding point. Is it at all possible that I only need 1 new bearing? Or should I just get 2?

Edit:
IS this bearing good even though its not the 687 XXX or whatever?
http://www.bocabearings.com/bearing-inventory/Radial-Bearings/16569/SMR147CYZZNB2-7x14x5

[username in use]

I know your uncle . . .

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQH_5Gbi954IE78OomVTzqq-D42CbVbdwABHDyPjkOLjU5F0J3X




just kidding, I couldn't help myself.
I would replace both bearing while it is open. Not sure on the magnet issue though. You could try to epoxy it back together though.

[dahenley]

sorry..... i was thinking you were working with the MP40.
so i have no opinions for the 10... sorry

[kakalakasha]

Yeah I guess I'd rather jsut replace both now.

So no one knows if this is the right bearing for it?
http://www.bocabearings.com/bearing-inventory/Radial-Bearings/16569/SMR147CYZZNB2-7x14x5

[jbonez]

for the price of those vortechs they should make no noise and have no problems ...

[username in use]

Like the $50,000 cars that never have any problems or recalls or need bearings replaced or or or?

[kakalakasha]

Having a problem finding the right bearings to replace in an MP10...

[kakalakasha]

If I wanted to replace the cracked magnet would I be able to get any magent of the same dimensions, or are there specific strength magnets?
The magnet seems to be 42mm in diameter and about 3mm thick, ill post one if I find one but would anyone be able to find me one?

[Ahanix]

Awesome, thanks for the info!

[trmiv]

Repaired my MP10 today. Aside from pulling the old bearings off, which was a massive pain in the rear, it was a pretty easy fix. I test ran the motor and it was super quiet. I still need to get some kind of epoxy to put the case for the MP10 back together. What have people been using for that?

[dahenley]

you can use a 2 part epoxy (you get it in a little twin tube pack at a home store near the silicone and sealants)
but you can also use a Superglue Gel type adhesive.

[trmiv]

Two part worked great.

Thanks for coming up with this idea to repair these things, it worked better than I could have imagined! My MP10 wasn't this quiet when it was brand new.

[bif24701]

for the price of those vortechs they should make no noise and have no problems ...

Wow, that's just stupid.

The price is for features and performance, everything breaks even $25,000,000.00 aircraft break everyday. I don't see any trend analysis that proves Vortechs break any more often then other powerheads/pumps, have you?

This isn't the thread to post this comment.

[Sisterlimonpot]

Wow, that's just stupid.


This isn't the thread to post this comment.
classic case of, the pot calling the kettle black...

I believe his statement is valid, I own 2 of them and still can't see the justification of price.

[kakalakasha]

Well, I got my new bearings, and replaced them, and my vortech is only SLIGHTLY quieter.
Took it apart to mess with it, and I put it back together and forgot to put the washers in... DEAD SILENT. My noise problem comes from the washers.
I have 2 washers, a regular one and a spring washer. No washers=no noise AT ALL, is there a problem with running this without washers? and if i need washers do you think new ones would make a difference?

[SoFloReefer]

Well, I got my new bearings, and replaced them, and my vortech is only SLIGHTLY quieter.
Took it apart to mess with it, and I put it back together and forgot to put the washers in... DEAD SILENT. My noise problem comes from the washers.
I have 2 washers, a regular one and a spring washer. No washers=no noise AT ALL, is there a problem with running this without washers? and if i need washers do you think new ones would make a difference?

Those washers are most likely thrust washers to take the force from the coupling magnets. Removing those will likely put the force onto the ball bearings which are not necessarily designed to be axially loaded. This could cause premature failure. Some ball bearings are better than others for thrust loading so I'd have to see the type used.
Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't looked at the design so I'm guessing this is the case.

If someone can tell me the manufacturer and type of bearing used, I will look up the specs and see if they should be failing prematurely. I will also need some kind of an idea what the min and max speed the pump runs at (maybe we can get this information from Ecotech). The way bearing life is rated, some will always fail (like 10%) before their design life is reached. This is most likely the cause of the failures.

[kakalakasha]

Those washers are most likely thrust washers to take the force from the coupling magnets. Removing those will likely put the force onto the ball bearings which are not necessarily designed to be axially loaded. This could cause premature failure. Some ball bearings are better than others for thrust loading so I'd have to see the type used.
Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't looked at the design so I'm guessing this is the case.

If someone can tell me the manufacturer and type of bearing used, I will look up the specs and see if they should be failing prematurely. I will also need some kind of an idea what the min and max speed the pump runs at (maybe we can get this information from Ecotech). The way bearing life is rated, some will always fail (like 10%) before their design life is reached. This is most likely the cause of the failures.

These are the bearings I got:
http://www.bocabearings.com/bearing-inventory/Radial-Bearings/8214/SMR147CYZZ5NB2-7x14x5

[SoFloReefer]

I think there have been bearing failures for two reasons. The first is likely from having the dry side improperly spaced so that the coupling magnets are too close. My guess would be that this is the main cause of failure. This will cause a much greater thrust force on the bearings. The other possibility is that the dry side is not properly aligned with the wet side. This would cause radial forces and vibration on the bearings that would likely be negligible otherwise.

When seeing how additional loading will effect the life of a ball bearing, look at the equation for bearing life L10=(C/P)^3, where C is the dynamic load rating and P is the load placed on the bearings (In the case of combined radial and thrust loads, the calculation for P is more complicated). L10 gives the number of revolutions, in millions of revolutions, that 90% of the bearings should complete before failure. If the bearing used on the MP-40 is indeed the DDR-1980; this bearing has a dynamic load rating of 2463 N (554 pounds).
So lets look at two examples: One where the load on the bearing is 50 pounds, and one where it is 20 pounds. Lets assume that the pump runs at an average of 1000 RPMs over its life:
(554/50)^3*1e6=1360e6 rev
(1360e6 rev)/(1000 RPM)/(60 min/hr)/(24 hr/day)/(365 day/yr)=2.6 years
so 90% should last this long. A few percent will fail significantly sooner, and around 50% will likely last 5x as long.
Second example, P=20 lbs
(554/20)^3*1e6=21253e6
(21253e6 rev)/(1000 RPM)/(60 min/hr)/(24 hr/day)/(365 day/yr)=40.4 years
The point being is that the change in thrust load will likely seriously impact the expected life of the bearings. Also, even with normal loads, a few percent will always fail prematurely.
What could be done to fix this? A different (read larger) bearing can be used with a greater dynamic load rating. Perhaps a thrust bearing could be incorporated into the design or the pumps could be designed to shut off if the two sides are too close together.
Anyways, I don't know enough about the design of the pump to come to any solid conclusions. What I do know is that I have an MP-10 and if I run it at full power it is loud and gets hot. I run it at 1/2-3/4 power and it is fine.

[terahz]

Just ordered some bearings from BOCA and found this 15% coupon: 15RCGroup2011

Will report back when I get them.

[clarky11]

MOST USEFUL THREAD I'VE EVER FOUND! Right now I'm in the process of replacing two different sets of bearings on two different MP40s. I purchased them both as "no working" "as is" purchases so I got got them for dirt cheap and hope all this works. I have both of the 7mm bearings off, but I cannot for the life of me get the 8mm bearings off (the ones closest to the magnet). I am now waiting for the bearing splitter to be shipped to me from e b a y. I just received the new bearings from the link someone put on here from amazon (VXB Bearing). I am cautiously optimistic that this will all work out and I will have two working MP40s. Thanks for the help.

[dahenley]

glad to see this thread is still alive and helping folks!

the splitter will help!!! they work wonders.

and if your scared, you just place it around the bearing, and place that on a vice, and tap the shaft with a punch. (if you have a brass hammer or drift, use it. if not, you can place a piece of wood between to prevent flaring the shaft. )

[shaggss]

MOST USEFUL THREAD I'VE EVER FOUND! Right now I'm in the process of replacing two different sets of bearings on two different MP40s. I purchased them both as "no working" "as is" purchases so I got got them for dirt cheap and hope all this works. I have both of the 7mm bearings off, but I cannot for the life of me get the 8mm bearings off (the ones closest to the magnet). I am now waiting for the bearing splitter to be shipped to me from e b a y. I just received the new bearings from the link someone put on here from amazon (VXB Bearing). I am cautiously optimistic that this will all work out and I will have two working MP40s. Thanks for the help.

yes great thread. I have just replaced my bearings in my mp10 with the same ones as quoted above. now super quiet! I will do a comprehensive write up soon as I took lots if pictures.....

[clarky11]

glad to see this thread is still alive and helping folks!

the splitter will help!!! they work wonders.

and if your scared, you just place it around the bearing, and place that on a vice, and tap the shaft with a punch. (if you have a brass hammer or drift, use it. if not, you can place a piece of wood between to prevent flaring the shaft. )

would something like this work instead of the splitter? Which one would be better to use?

http://www.amazon.com/3-Jaw-Pilot-Bearing-Puller/dp/B0025ZC2YU/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1323398079&sr=8-3-fkmr2

[dahenley]

that wont work. (thats a pilot bearing puller. which grabbs the inside of a bearing and pulls it off a inner tube of some sort.) that is used for pulling bearings out of manual transmission flywheels.

you could use a standard 3 jaw bearing puller, but they cost more. and the jaws have to grab around the bearing, and i cant remember if there would be enough room between the bearing and magnet to place the jaws.....
sorry.

[clarky11]

thanks for your quick help. I'll just stick to the splitter, seems easier.

[shaggss]

ok, so here goes. My MP10's were really making a loud noise, only after one year of use. After reading this thread I decided to do my own bearing replacement. I ordered the bearings from VXB on ebay. Good service and free international shipping! The bearings you need are: 7mm x 14mm x 5mm

Here! (http://www.ebay.com/itm/130259581127?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_599wt_955)

I must say that this was extremely easy. Just read this thread and you'll be ok. You'll need a box cutter, allen key and a flat head screw driver. (Maybe a bearing puller)

so first off, I have to say that I take NO responsibility for anything you do. Remember you are working with electricity and you MUST unplug this from the wall!!!!

After that it's a piece of cake!

1. Use a small screw driver to lift the logo face off. It is just glued on and will come off very easy.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/c729b582.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/cc5d0a5d.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/b442443d.jpg

2. Use a cutting/box knife to prize open the face of the MP10. I did this by simply pushing the knife down in the join. Start at the gap where the electrical cord is and slowly work you way around. Take your time and it will work out fine.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/07fc158a.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/c41a12f7.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/139fc643.jpg

Then remove the three screws at the back

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/3a809367.jpg

And the whole electric motor will come out

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/9b81e4f9.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/cb559257.jpg

Then remove the screw holding the front magnet on:

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/d0b0df94.jpg

[shaggss]

Then remove the three screws:

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/8b32dd62.jpg

And you'll end up with this:

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/289a13f1.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/shaggss/10a58dde.jpg

Now you may or may not need a bearing splitter to pull off the old bearings. My older MP 10, the bearings just slipped off with my hand, the newer one required a bearing puller. Just pop the new ones on and repeat the process in reverse. I didnt bother to reglue the front plate on. It is fine and will allow easy access should i need to in future.

They are now dead silent.........and a very cheap and easy DIY!

HTHs Cheers

[Easily Distracted]

I did this recently. The bearing measurements for me were 3mm ID x 7mm OD x 5mm W. They were both the same size. The replacement bearing type was a 670ZZ.

The only thing I would add is to clean up the aluminum end plates very well where the bearing sits, keep the 3 spacing washers in the same order (flat/wavy/flat) and put a small drop of loc-tite on the center screw for the silver magnet.

[shogun97]

I'm just preparing to change out the bearings in one of my MP40's and I would like to hear if anyone has found a bearing that provides an improvement over stock? If yes can somebody please provide a link or a model number. I have already noted the existing links in the thread but what I'm looking for as an addition to all the great info is an upgrade on the stock sound levels.

Cheers,

[Easily Distracted]

The bearings I found were not servieable like the oem ones but they are dead silent. The bearings that were in there originally looked like pretty darn good bearings. They were serviceable roller bearings with metal dust shields and circlips. When I opened them, black, burnt grease fell out like dust. Someone must have run it rediculously hot for a long period of time. I would imagine if you don't have it aligned properly, it will side-load the bearings making them run hot and score or burn them out prematurely. I think regular cleaning of the wet side and proper alignment are key on the Ecotech pumps. They appear to be built very well. My only improvement would be to spin ballance each dry side magnet to a tighter tolerance at the factory to make it almost undetectable when they are on.

[Rara..]

I suspect my magnetic disk is not balanced. I got an MP10 when I bought a biocube. It was very noisy so I replaced the bearings and it was whisper silent. After maybe a month or so it is back to being noisy. I bought an extra set of bearings and would like to test my theory. I contacted Ecotech but they don't sell replacement disks since the dryside is supplied to them as an assembly.

Does anyone has an extra magnetic disk that they would want to send me? I can pay shipping and a few bucks for it.
Thanks.
Jason

[polywise]

shaggss (post #229 pic 4)

Are you breaking open a ultrasonic weld when removing this plate? and when you re assemble, how did this plate go back together? did you crazy glue it back on?

Jim C.

[shaggss]

not sure about the weld but it is tough to get off!!! I used a box cutter and cut around the seam while gently prying it open. it appears to be glued in abiut 4 places there is a small groove that the face sits in. I didnt bother to glue it back on. when on the tank the magnet holds it altogether.

[ReeferEric]

I was opting to buy one used but I'll stick with new. This thread will be of great use once I get one and it starts to wear down.

[GRTTSOU]

Hello everyone,

Can someone provide to me the some links for bearing rings in order to replace my problematic ones? I actually need the exact type that suit to my dry side of the pump. If someone knows sellers from e-bay it would be just great, otherwise I would have to buy the parts from US.
I am a European resident and thus the seller must be in position to send them out of US. I own two MP40Wes

Please also check the below mentioned links, i think that these are the parts that i need, please confim if i have wrong or not.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SKF-607-2RS-SEALED-BEARING-7x19x6mm-6072RS-SKF-BEARING-/400243989971?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Skateboarding_Skating_ET&hash=item5d30669dd3

http://www.ebay.com/itm/S698-2RS-Bearing-8mm-x-19mm-x-6mm-Stainless-Sealed-/130395333361?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5c2ae2f1


Thank you all guys in advance, this is a great thread!

[polywise]

shaggss,
I followed your lead, and swapped out the bearings, easy to do
(once you get beyond the fear of cracking open the unit).

going to power it up on the tank today to listen to the results :)
feedback to follow

[shaggss]

shaggss,
I followed your lead, and swapped out the bearings, easy to do
(once you get beyond the fear of cracking open the unit).

going to power it up on the tank today to listen to the results :)
feedback to follow

Cool, hope it goes well!!

[aka_Willy]

Hello everyone,

Can someone provide to me the some links for bearing rings in order to replace my problematic ones? I actually need the exact type that suit to my dry side of the pump. If someone knows sellers from e-bay it would be just great, otherwise I would have to buy the parts from US.
I am a European resident and thus the seller must be in position to send them out of US. I own two MP40Wes

Please also check the below mentioned links, i think that these are the parts that i need, please confim if i have wrong or not.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SKF-607-2RS-SEALED-BEARING-7x19x6mm-6072RS-SKF-BEARING-/400243989971?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Skateboarding_Skating_ET&hash=item5d30669dd3

http://www.ebay.com/itm/S698-2RS-Bearing-8mm-x-19mm-x-6mm-Stainless-Sealed-/130395333361?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5c2ae2f1


Thank you all guys in advance, this is a great thread!

Those will work fine GRTTSOU

[LilRobb]

I did these replacements on 2 of my 8 MP40s already, but today doing # 3 and 4 threw me off.

The backside (under the sticker) shaft does not have the grove to hold the shaft while unscrewing the screw in the magnet.
It's completely flat - so removal of the magnet is impossible as the shaft spins with the screw...

Any suggestions???

[dahenley]

undo the allen screws, take the motor out of the housing, and then hold the magnet with your hand, and unscrew it. that easy!

(or it sounds that easy)

[LilRobb]

undo the allen screws, take the motor out of the housing, and then hold the magnet with your hand, and unscrew it. that easy!

(or it sounds that easy)

Done!
Once the first 1/16 of a turn was done the magnet got lose and I can no longer hold it to unscrew it...

[todd rose]

undo the allen screws, take the motor out of the housing, and then hold the magnet with your hand, and unscrew it. that easy!

(or it sounds that easy)

I have the same issue. You say take the motor out of the housing? Does the motor come out easy?? I tried..... Seems like it's in the housing rock solid....

[polywise]

I had good results with the bearing swap :)

[dahenley]

Done!
Once the first 1/16 of a turn was done the magnet got lose and I can no longer hold it to unscrew it...

wow, sorry for not payinig attention.
once your start to unscrew it, then the magnet stays and the screw spins.
tilt the magnet a little to create pressure between the cap of the screw and shaft the screw goes into. (or slide a tooth pick in between and it will do the same thing.

once the screw is loose, you should be able to place your finger over the back of the motor. (this is where there should have been a flat head to hold the shaft) with the screw broke loose, your finger pressure should be enough to hold the shaft and un-do the allen holding the magnet.

[dahenley]

I have the same issue. You say take the motor out of the housing? Does the motor come out easy?? I tried..... Seems like it's in the housing rock solid....

Todd, are you working on a MP10 or the MP20/40?

if a 10, then once the allens are un-done, you have to cut the rubber around the cord to remove the motor assy. (see the pictures a page or 2 back)

then, your holding the motor in your hand (with magnet attached)
wrap your one hand around the motor, and your index finger around the magnet (that way the magnet stays still) then you can break the screw thats holding the magnet on loose. once its loose, you can do as i described in the post above to finish removing the magnet/screw from the motor assy

[dahenley]

another thing to do, is to once the motor is out of the plastic housing,
take the 3 phillips screws out. then the front plate, magnet and bearing/magnet assy will slide out the front.
this should allow you to grip the black inner magnet with your hand and un-thread the screw that holds the flat magnet off the front of the assy.

just a thought.

[psusocr]

Can someone PM me where i can buy the replacements and the numbers for the bearings i need for my gen 1 mp40's? i have two of them and they are loud as hell.. THANKS!