Wavebox/Wavemakers and tank failure...

[rbredding]

Will a Wavebox or wave maker cause tank failure?

I am only interested in hearing from people who have had a tank fail or have first hand knowledge of the setup of a friends tank (which has failed)...


I've been reading threads for weeks and there are always posts about "waveboxes causing tank failure" (premature or otherwise)...

My question is this:

How many people have had a tank fail? (and were you running a wavebox/had wave making controller actively producing waves in your aquarium)

I'm not really talking about ripples/surface agitation, I'm interested in structured wave making (primarily)

[rbredding]

seriously?

20 views and only 2 votes? (everyone could vote, even if it's no..)

[Gilby]

What do you mean by tank failure? do you mean tank crashing and everything dies or do you mean just the wavemaker fails? I've never heard of a tank crashing from using a wave maker.

[pbnj]

I think he means leaks/breaks.

[muttley000]

seriously?

20 views and only 2 votes? (everyone could vote, even if it's no..)

You limited your requested responses to a very small group of people. Most of the views are probably people who don't use a wavemaker but are curious. My guess is that you will have to bump this often to get what you are looking for. It is a subject I would like to know more about, so I'll be checking back often;)

[L98-Z]

I have the larger of the tunze waveboxes on my 75 gallon. Works well. No tank failure. I've had it on two other tanks as well. No failures on them.

[ANGRY JOHN]

i have the mini wave box, on an acrylic tank, don't know that i would use one on glass. The bond strength of acrylic to itself and top braced is high, might find more failures on the newer rimless tanks, just a guess though.

[rbredding]

You limited your requested responses to a very small group of people. Most of the views are probably people who don't use a wavemaker but are curious. My guess is that you will have to bump this often to get what you are looking for. It is a subject I would like to know more about, so I'll be checking back often;)

I guess I should have clarified..

no, I have not had a tank failure (would apply to everyone, wave maker or not...)
in my eyes, everyone in the hobby has either had a failure or hasn't had a failure.. (and of the failures, I'm curious as to whether a wave maker was being used at all)

I apologize for the confusion.. (thank you for pointing it out)




I would postulate that tank failures are as common with non wave making setups, as they are with wave making setups... (but obviously, poll information will need to be gathered in order to pull together the data)

[L98-Z]

I could certainly see how the wave maker could increase change of failure, yet at the same time, I think it has more to do with the tank being built improperly. I'm not saying due to inadequate knowledge of tank building, simply that there were possible errors during the construction of the tank.

[rbredding]

I'm beginning to believe it is an urban legend...

:)

[L98-Z]

Perhaps, but from a purely physics stand point, I can't see how cause possible damage over time. To what degree is what I'd like to know.

[jim.l]

I had an end seam in an AGA 65 let go a number of years ago and I had no wavemaker on the tank.

[rbredding]

Perhaps, but from a purely physics stand point, I can't see how cause possible damage over time. To what degree is what I'd like to know.

The real question is this:

How strong is Silicone & Glass for a corner joint...

for instance, I'm sure that a wave motion will put more stress on a tank than still water will.. but if the strength of the silicone/glass connection is 10X stronger than the total force that a wavemaker could exert, then it's a non issue (as an example)

[L98-Z]

Agreed.

[karsseboom]

Man not to many people have had failure from wave makers. I guess it could happen but its rare.

[evsalty]

I have only been using a DIY nano wavebox on a 40br for 4 or 5 months and the tank was bought new so as of now no failure from the use of a wavebox.

[rbredding]

I can't believe there have only been 2 tank failures on this site..

[rbredding]

I dont think that's enough responses to say myth busted...

[noahm]

I am just speculating, but from a materials standpoint I would think acrylic would be more prone to fatigue damage than a silicone/glass joint. A lot depends on the wave type you are creating, but it should be rare and more an issue of construction flaws. Random waves would typically be less trouble than synched waves. I would feel perfectly safe doing it, but would probably have the tank built one thickness larger if I was considering it. The bending/bowing stresses on the panels are what strain the joint.

[ChuckLawson]

In 40 years or so, and way more tanks than I could count, I've had two seam failures -- one on a custom tank (130G-ish cube) built for me by a friend, and one on a 20 year old 90 gallon that I can pretty easily attribute to having moved (by much shoving and sliding of tank and stand) while still having about 3" of rock and gravel in it a month or two beforehand.

I do run a wavebox on two tanks, no signs of failure yet due to them (knock on wood).

[rbredding]

I wonder why the FIRST thing you hear from someone when you say "wavemaker/wavebox" is "IT WILL DAMAGE YOUR TANK" ?

[ANGRY JOHN]

that may be to cya for the fish store owners. I dont think there is any more chance of a failure than using any other type of water movement system that can make waves "read" vortec

[rbredding]

I also hear it from individuals as a reason that (specifically, the tunze) Wavebox[es] is an inferior product...

[pmrossetti]

I think Tunze recommends acrylic tanks be used with waveboxes.

[rbredding]

actually it recommends that glass tanks be built using "whatever the name is" method.. (glass thickness and surface area exposed to the water column calculation or square inches of silicone or something like that).. it notes that most tank manufacturers use the method specified..

[L98-Z]

I like my wavebox. I'll continue using it.

[psteeleb]

I had a tank failure and was using a wave maker.

I can not say if the wave maker was the cause or even contributed, but from a physics standpoint even slight variances in pressure over time can and will cause more stress to a joint then a constant pressure

I can not vote for him but another member in our local club also had a seam failure and was also using structured waves.

[rbredding]

you're the first person in 600 that have had both a failure and a wavebox/wavemaker...



I'd like to hear more about your particular situation... (and wonder whether you make waves now)

[psteeleb]

you're the first person in 600 that have had both a failure and a wavebox/wavemaker...


I'd like to hear more about your particular situation... (and wonder whether you make waves now)

like I said - I can't blame wavemaking on the failure, but nor will just a couple data points give enough data to prove a point one way or the other, especially without a baseline

now if we had 100 tank failures and 25 of those had wavemakers and data that showed 10% of all the normal population of tanks had wave makers one may be able to conclude that having a wavemaker doubles the chance of a seam failure, and that precludes all other other variables

my tank was a 300g tall with 3/4" glass and a double overlapping eurobrace. The failure was in the upper 1/4 section of the seam or from the top down about 8-10". I ran 4 korilias on a wave timer and a closed loop on a SQUID, but the SQUID was out of opperation for about a year prior to the failure

the other tank I reference was also a 300g but not a tall tank and had 5/8" thick glass and also eurobraced but I think it was single eurobrace. he ran a couple mp40's for wave action maybe even 3

I believe both of the 300g tanks were around 10 years old and we were both second owners so they went thruogh a breakdown, move and a second set up that I'm sure added some lifetime stress to the tank

again I can not claim wavemaking was the cause but will only add that alternating pressure (even slight) will cause more stress then a stable pressure. In the end I suspect the failures were due to age and stress from multible set ups or the tank settling and the wavemaking may have contributed to adding another dimension to the erosion of a failed seam or seal not much different then how waves wash on and then away sand on a beach

I currently have a very robustly built 110g and just started using a Tunze nano wavebox on it.

[rbredding]

i appreciate the feedback.. I didn't mean anything by the 1 in 600 comment other than finding people who've both had a failure AND created structured waves isn't as easy as one would think..

I appreciate your disclaimer about not being able to point the finger at the wavemaker.. but I too have a tank older than 10 years (that has been resealed) that is running a nano wavebox... I love it, by the way...

[Penguintheory]

A few month ago I had a small failure with my 34 gallon solana using a vortec powerhead. I had it set so make a 1.5" to 2" wave on the surface of the water and I had it like that for about 6 months. I came home to find water on the floor started inspecting the tank and found that one seam had torn 5" from the top of the tank extending down. I was lucky to catch it when I did or I would have lost every thing and with all my seaching I have not found another solana with a seam that let go. I can not prove that the vortch caused it but I no longer run a wave in my tank I just use lagoon mode now.

[rbredding]

1.5"-2"

is a pretty big wave..


isn't it?



most people I've seen have waves at or under 1"

[Penguintheory]

It is a small cube and if I wanted I can get the water to spill over the sides of the tank with the short pulse mode on full power.

[rbredding]

It is a small cube and if I wanted I can get the water to spill over the sides of the tank with the short pulse mode on full power.

?


ok



but, why would you want water moving like that within your aquarium... ?



that's not conducive to coral growth..

[rbredding]

anyone else?

[alton]

I have a wavemaker on my Marineland 300 with no issues, I have a friend who has two tanks and wavemakers and no issues.

[kingfisherflesh]

I will be following this thread with interest.

I know several people who have stopped doing waves because of this...but would like to see the backing of the "myth". That being said it would make sense that those pressures waxing and waning could slowly work the glass apart at the seams.

[naterealbig]

dp sorry

[rbredding]

bump

[714albert]

My sisters 180gal. acrylic tank seam failed, and lost all water within it. The tank had a Tunze wavebox with a 1 to 1-1/2" wave. The tank was ten plus years old, whether it was the tank age or the damage caused by the constant wave? My sister replaced her acrylic tank with a glass tank and she is using her wavebox with the same wave height.

[tdwright1971]

need to add to the poll people who use waveboxes or wavemakers who have not had a tank failure.

[ginrin]

Am I being too naive but isn't a wavebox just a pulsating powerhead at longer intervals.if one jumps up and down on a concrete slab would it break as oppose to standing on it but if you jump up and down on a beach you would probably have a bigger footprint as oppose to just standing.So if the structure is pretty solid in the first place it really would'nt matter.

[Jeremy Blaze]

?


ok



but, why would you want water moving like that within your aquarium... ?



that's not conducive to coral growth..


Lots of current is not conductive to coral growth? Never heard that one before.

[L98-Z]

Lots of current is not conductive to coral growth? Never heard that one before.

Perhaps he meant water spilling over the sides?

[rbredding]

need to add to the poll people who use waveboxes or wavemakers who have not had a tank failure.

please see the "I have not had a tank failure" choice.. :strange:


Perhaps he meant water spilling over the sides?

+1

in order to grow coral.. rule number one is to keep the water in the tank.

[rbredding]

Am I being too naive but isn't a wavebox just a pulsating powerhead at longer intervals.if one jumps up and down on a concrete slab would it break as oppose to standing on it but if you jump up and down on a beach you would probably have a bigger footprint as oppose to just standing.So if the structure is pretty solid in the first place it really would'nt matter.



the problem is that I've not been able to find any data on the strength of a silicone/glass panel joint..

I know it's strong.. but don't know what it would take to shear the connection.. (or weaken it to the point of leaking)

[jonnyu]

Updates ? Looking to run a wavebox.

[l2enagade007]

WP 40 running on a 5 foot 120 gallon tank on wave 1. Had the pump for about 8 months. Tank seal leaked 2 months ago, running the jabao. Broke it down, resealed, water tested, set it up. 2 months later came home with 20 gallons of water on the floor and the bottom of the tank leaking water rather quickly. Just soaked the jabao in vinager and scrubbed it clean 2 or 3 days prior to seams failing since the flow seemed weak. Cleaning brought the pump back to new. Coincidentaly the seams fail days after i increase flow and wave on jabao?

Im not attempting another reseal of tank and just bought a new 4' 120 tank. Plan on avoiding W1 setting and just running else mode from this point on

[PrangeWay]

I've run tunze wavebox (which I love) on AGA tanks with no problems. They are well built tanks on well built stands.

I have NOT run the wavebox on rimless tanks, as it seems to be asking for trouble, I stick with the "powerhead" waves instead of real ones.


PW

[GroktheCube]

I have a Tunze 6208 Wavebox on my 120. I've only had it set up for a few days, but I'm not too concerned. I have it set to make a ~.75" wave at its most extreme point. Enough to create at least some "swaying" movement everywhere in the tank.

If I were to build a custom tank that was a bit larger I'd likely have the trim extend a bit further to support a lower water level, and make an even bigger wave. It just looks cool!

I'm sure it puts some extra stress on the joints of the tank, but my understanding is that tanks are typically manufactured with a pretty big safety margin. Maybe the tank will only go 20 years instead of 30 without needing to be resealed, but odds are I'll have a different tank set up some time before then. I should note that the tank is on one of Marineland's "high end" stands, constructed from dimensional lumber and plywood instead of fiberboard, with a single old piece of wood for the tank to rest on. The stand is leveled, and built like a tank, it weighs a good bit more than the tank itself does! That extra stability adds to me confidence somewhat.

[Timfish]

Over the years I've known two glass and silicone tanks to fail catastrophically, as in all the water on the floor in minutes, both were over twenty years old and built in the '70's (one was a Metaframe with a glass bottom instead of slate). More recently I've know several have a partial joint failure but only slow leaks allowing time to save the inhabitants and minimal floor damage. I've known two acrylic tanks to fail but both used single part solvent type glues (not two part self-polymerizing) and were built in the 90's by a well known national company that is now out of business. NONE were using a wave maker or surge device.

[nullbreached]

I know this isn't a scientific study but perhaps the poll should have also include the current age of the tank or age at failure? It seems like several of the anecdotal failures were with "older" tanks (approaching 10 years or more).

[maddhugan]

anyone else?

You know what? this is an awesome subject. I had a silicone seam failure due to vibration, but not from a wavemaker, but from a protein skimmer pump. I used a breeder tank as my sump and it worked without a problem until one day for some reason my pump started vibrating crazy. And within a week the seams came apart in two location and it started to leak. Wavemakers also make vibrations and this not that much different from a vibrating skimmer pump. I still have that vibrating skimmer and pump but have an acrylic sump with no failures for more than a year. I would confidently say that only silicone seams are prone to this sort if failures due to vibrations.

well, I don't know whether there was any resonance due to the vibrations from the skimmer pump that caused the silicone seams to split, Also not sure whether there will any resonance due to wavemaker (because the vibrations are repeated with large intervals)

one more point, is the extent, frequency and other parameters of the vibrations from the skimmer pump that caused the sump failure is similar to that of the wavemakers?

not sure, more studies need to be done in this field.

One thing for sure, silicone seam split due to vibration of aquarium equipment is not an imaginary theory but a very possible threat.

I'm in the process of buying a Lee Mar tank, and also want a WP 60 wavemaker, so I'm planning on placing the wavemaker on a special rock that would sit on top of a silicone pad placed on glass bottom. I'm just trying to reduce or damp the vibration by doing so. After that sump failure happened the thought of wavemaker scares me, but I will have to have one though. I loves nice big waves. lol

[wooglin]

I wonder why this thread died, this is a very interesting topic.

[jonnyu]

I wonder why this thread died, this is a very interesting topic.



I think it died because there hasn't been enough proof that these boxes could cause failures. I think it's more of bad tank builds or just bad luck.

[Charley Diesing]

Bump... Anyone else have anything else to contribute?

[nickp87]

Wave makers are by far the most used form of water movement today, if they were causing seams to go there would be a lot more posts about it.

I'd also like to know how you would even determine it was the wave maker that caused it anyway?