Dinoflagellates.

[tastyfish]

No apologies to me needed. But you should apologize to those that followed your extended blackout period and killed corals because you fail to mention it should only be tried by those running a FOWLR setup or if they really don't care about losing livestock.

As for the rest, well, I'll let all the recent results speak for themselves as to what works and what doesn't. There have been enough of them recently that one only need to look back a few pages.

Proving again that you haven't bothered to read my post (bar perhaps the fist few lines). That said, others who had advised me on the approach did it on very mature SPS tanks. I wouldn't expect everything to survive, a loss of a sensitive species is certainly likely, however it entirely depends on the species and your circumstances.

If you go back and actually read the entire method I posted and then your comments, you will perhaps see my point. I'll leave it there as arguing with someone who hasn't actually read something being referred is going to end up going round in circles or the ignore button pressed.

extended blackouts really aren't necessary if the point of it is to reduce the amount of dinos in the tank in order to give competing algaes a chance at taking hold which is why i like the method of 3 day blackout followed by increased feedings and dosing pods/phyto (dirty method)...i believe the dirty method, by itself, is sufficient for the majority of dino cases as seen by numerous results but it doesn't appear to work for everyone, unfortunately...but doing a 3 day blackout will simply speed the process up as well as if you add in a UV and skim heavily in conjunction with the 3 day blackout since blackouts seem to force dinos into the water column

extended blackouts, in my opinion, serve no purpose when short ones can produce the same results and put less stress on your already stressed out corals...so i agree with the opinion that more than 4 days lights out is completely unnecessary given that some dinos will encyst...purpose of the blackout isn't to get rid of them, it's to decrease their numbers and give competing algae a chance

that is my 2 cents...as you can see by my photos that i have an sps dominated tank...at 4 days my acros started to STN...that is simply a fact, not an opinion...doing more than 4 days would be lethal to most of my sps as any experienced reefer would know

Appreciate your view which is actually aligned with mine, *if* the dinos are responding and knocked back enough and you are using other measures to make the environment hostile and competitive for the dinos (see my original post). I was fortunate in that my tank did not have many SPS (mainly LPS), however those SPS I did have were fine after blackout. (This won't be the case, you know how much your corals can take by monitoring them).

I performed my method at the same time as three other people, one did a 3 day blackout along with adding competition, the dinos are back and have killed a large part of his stock. (The worst scenario is that you do any blackout, which weakens the corals and the dinos come back).

The third reefer (much more experienced than I) again performed the blackout (6 days or so I believe) but was not adding bio-diversity until out of blackout switched on MH lights to have a look on day four reported that he could actually see the dinos congregating in the water column within minutes.

The dinos are unfortunately back and spreading even after he is now adding bio diversity and he is contemplating a second blackout, but corals would obviously be in a much weakened state (again, nightmare scenario).

In my case, as my options were open, and I did not want to run the risk of them coming back, I decided to go full hog, although others who had completed this approach with mature SPS tanks had gone longer and were advising me too. (I decided this wasn't for me).

Here's a section of the rock work just prior to total blackout:

http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz41/robhale77/New%20Tank/0C49A3AC-8E8C-466E-B6B7-3011BC63F1D4_zpsafcemolk.jpg (http://s812.photobucket.com/user/robhale77/media/New%20Tank/0C49A3AC-8E8C-466E-B6B7-3011BC63F1D4_zpsafcemolk.jpg.html)

Here the same section on day three (actually middle of the night on day two IIRC, day three there wasn't much change so didn't take a photo).

http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz41/robhale77/New%20Tank/0FFFA615-7D5F-47B7-B8C0-4020A86D979B_zpsaavabnap.jpg (http://s812.photobucket.com/user/robhale77/media/New%20Tank/0FFFA615-7D5F-47B7-B8C0-4020A86D979B_zpsaavabnap.jpg.html)

On day 4, the rocks had mostly cleared, however the sand was still snotty and I had snail and conch deaths as they were feeding in the area or on the Dinos.

By day 8, the tank was completely clear and I decided to unwrap (actually I couldn't bare to do it any longer!).

http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz41/robhale77/New%20Tank/7DFB711D-C2B4-4DBA-81ED-3BB482079F42_zps9gsq4u3h.jpg (http://s812.photobucket.com/user/robhale77/media/New%20Tank/7DFB711D-C2B4-4DBA-81ED-3BB482079F42_zps9gsq4u3h.jpg.html)

So as you can see, this was my experience and I was glad that I went for a longer period to knock the dinos back further. Otherwise I fear I would still be dealing with them 4/5 months on. It's up to the tank owner to assess what their coral's condition is and if they need to unwrap or they can go on further.

Hope this last post clarifies

[taricha]

Thanks for detailed account. Do you know the kind of dinos?
I'd be pretty dang discouraged if my tank looked like that after 3 days of darkness.

[karimwassef]

Here's what I observed about dark periods with dinos without UV:

1. They have alternate food sources, so they can hunker down for a while.
2. The cyano they collaborate with suffers quite a bit, so other bacteria get a foothold consuming whatever was fueling the cyano.
3. The pods that eat the dinos can be out more frequently since the fish and other daylight predators can't hunt in the dark.

So while it doesn't starve them, it does reduce their food sources, kill their friends and give free reign to their enemies. In some cases, that might win the war. But they're a plague, so it could take a month of these indirect attacks to kill them off.

So, UV just creates a shortcut to their annihilation.

[PorkchopExpress]

my issue is how quickly you are to dismiss and contradict advice from others that most certainly have been proven to work...your case may be the exception but it is not the norm when it comes to the photo sensitivity of dinos...this is your original post stating how just doing a 10 day blackout "WILL kill nearly all of them", in your own words, and that is something i also disagreed with (also partially disagree with UV - the first time it definitely worked and worked on its own without dirty method...second it did not help in my case)...just doing blackouts is not a cure and never has been but thank you for further clarifying your method didn't end at just doing blackouts...multi-pronged approaches are the way to go to beating them quicker than just doing the dirty method which, IMO, is the nail in the coffin




Reef Diva - since you have UV, and a particularly strong one, i would also suggest you do a 3 day blackout...force the dinos into the water column, that will give you the best chances of pushing the dinos into the UV which won't kill them all but will strongly inhibit their ability to reproduce...that is, afterall, the primary function of a UV sterilizer...of course at 400gph on an 80w it should be strong enough to actually kill them

here is a chart of max flow rates for a given UV sterilizer wattage...i would aim for under that number:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=1168

manny - same advice for you...do a 3 day blackout to kick them back a bit...right now your tank is infested with dinos and it'll take a lot more work for the other algaes to take a foothold with the dinos covering your rocks and tank...do the 3 day and then continue feeding heavy whilst dosing zooplankton and phytoplankton...if you're NO3 limited, then yes dose some but otherwise you can get the extra nitrates by feeding heavy and maybe even introducing more fish...if you're PO4 limited, NeoPhos can raise it up...take the skimmer offline

Don't do a 3 day. It wont work. Others who have tried this have even witnessed the dinos coming back together in the water column when the lights come back on.

8 days minimum (I think I did 10) *complete* blackout (including sump, grow lights etc) with the tank covered, then slowly bring in blue-lights only over the next two weeks before introducing white WILL kill off nearly all of them.

Don't do half measures. at 4/5 days, I still had dinos clinging on, they were certainly in the water column past this time.

[karimwassef]

guys... we're all on the same team... even if we disagree.

the dinos are the bad guys!

What works for someone may not work for another. There's a lot of different dino species too.

[tastyfish]

Thanks for detailed account. Do you know the kind of dinos?
I'd be pretty dang discouraged if my tank looked like that after 3 days of darkness.

Unfortunately no, I didn't go down the route of microscopic identification at the time. In hindsight, it would be interesting and perhaps useful. I did perform the reconstitution test (just to stop myself doubting it). :)

Here's what I observed about dark periods with dinos without UV:

1. They have alternate food sources, so they can hunker down for a while.
2. The cyano they collaborate with suffers quite a bit, so other bacteria get a foothold consuming whatever was fueling the cyano.
3. The pods that eat the dinos can be out more frequently since the fish and other daylight predators can't hunt in the dark.

So while it doesn't starve them, it does reduce their food sources, kill their friends and give free reign to their enemies. In some cases, that might win the war. But they're a plague, so it could take a month of these indirect attacks to kill them off.

So, UV just creates a shortcut to their annihilation.

Good insight Karim. I was in the middle of an edit to explain my thinking when the edit deadline hit... In my case, I went down the ultra low nutrient route which limited food sources for the dinos. My reason for not having UV on was as I wanted to foster as much diversity as possible. With the scientific research papers out there stating the limited effect of UV on some species of dinoflagellates, the downsides outweighed potential upsides in that I wanted to foster a significant increase in microscopic life whilst the dino population reduced.

my issue is how quickly you are to dismiss and contradict advice from others that most certainly have been proven to work...your case may be the exception but it is not the norm when it comes to the photo sensitivity of dinos...this is your original post stating how just doing a 10 day blackout "WILL kill nearly all of them", in your own words, and that is something i also disagreed with (also partially disagree with UV - the first time it definitely worked and worked on its own without dirty method...second it did not help in my case)...just doing blackouts is not a cure and never has been but thank you for further clarifying your method didn't end at just doing blackouts...multi-pronged approaches are the way to go to beating them quicker than just doing the dirty method which, IMO, is the nail in the coffin

We're actually in complete agreement, I think it would be worth reading my *original posts again* as I've referred to them several times. My frustration is bourne out of the number of people who think that a blackout alone (or a short 3 day one) will work. My tongue in cheek retort back is that you have already dismissed that a blackout of any longer than 3 days is needed (despite photographic evidence and the fact that others have had major issues). :)

To be clear, once again though, I am in no way suggesting that ANY single method will work. The complete opposite. It is a multi-pronged attack, not using a wonder additive, or blackout etc.

Here's a quote from earlier in the thread in response to a blackout of 3 days which didn't have the desired effect for the member.

Sorry to hear this, when I suffered from them, I spoke with 15 or so other reefers who had experienced Dinos. Pretty much everyone had tried a short (3 day) blackout and almost in every case, they came back.

This is what mine looked like (a small sample of what was in the tank):

http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz41/robhale77/New%20Tank/0C49A3AC-8E8C-466E-B6B7-3011BC63F1D4_zpsafcemolk.jpg


After speaking with some very helpful (and much more experienced reefers than me), I decided to employ a multi-pronged strategy to defeat them (this was performed in a relatively new tank, with only a few SPS frags, but has been used in very mature SPS systems) This consisted of the following:

1: Remove:
- Siphon to *waste* all the dinoflagellate mass I could with as little as possible water change (replacement water used TMC Pro Reef synthetic salt to ensure no organics) Do NOT try to pass through a filter sock or floss, they will pass through and re-form.

2: Create a hostile environment:

- 8+ Day Total blackout (sump and tank wrapped in black plastic) followed by Blue-only lighting for 5 days before introducing whites gradually (some advised longer and had done so with very mature SPS tanks)

- Maintain very low phosphate and Nitrate (Double Rowa amount, changing every 3/4 days)

- Double carbon media, replacing every 4 days

- Raise pH using Air stone to maintain 8.2+

- Wet Skim and clean it constantly - you need the skimmer at peak efficiency to remove dinos in the water column

3: Outcompete:
Create nutrient competition with good profile of microfauna/flora (Initial 10 x dose of FM Ultra-Bio, followed by daily top-ups of normal dose with UltraBak

Remember: Siphon Dead/Dying Dinoflaggelates to waste! NEVER through a filter sock.

The reason for removal of as much of the dinoflagellate mass as possible prior to blackout and during is two fold: Firstly, they will break down and provide more free nutrients (you are trying to reduce this). Secondly, even if they are not toxic when growing in the tank (as mine were not), they can release toxins when dying off. I ost two conches who started to feed on an area of dying dinoflagellates on the sand.

The good news is that 12+ weeks later, and they have not returned and the tank is (as far as I can tell) free of them.

A word on this approach, however - it is not for the faint hearted. You need to keep your head and press ahead with the blackout. Fortunately for me, I did not have a big stock of SPS. (Hammerheads, Acan, soft corals and LPS were fine) however those who helped had very mature SPS tanks and had gone through similar or longer blackouts.

However in my case, it did trigger a massive issue with the fish stock. As they were in the dark, they retreated to the rock and did not feed. This lowered their immune system and allowed a protozoan infection (probably Crytpocaryon) to take hold (I believe this came into the system on some macroalgae from another reefer previously).

In order to reduce the impact on fish immune systems, I would feed fortified food and use appetite stimulator (such as Garlic) to try to ensure the fish do feed and get plenty of vitamins & minerals when they do.

So this method is certainly effective, and much more so than miracle in a bottle chemicals, however some care needs to be taken along with perseverance.

Good Luck, it's beatable.

I know that's a lot of info to read (it's the condensed version BTW), but it is worth reading past the first few lines which perhaps some people have not done. :)


guys... we're all on the same team... even if we disagree.

the dinos are the bad guys!

What works for someone may not work for another. There's a lot of different dino species too.

Absolutely, there are 1600 species known to date, some are extremely beneficial. I believe no tank has zero dinoflagellates, but they are kept in check by a balanced ecosystem. Every environment in every tank is different also.

On my final note, I'm surprised TBH by some of the responses in this thread if anyone voices a different opinion to their own thinking (actually in some cases it's not even their own thinking) - sadly I've found this to more prevalent on RC compared to other forums.

So I will take this moment to unsubscribe from the thread and leave you guys to it. I don't want this to read as a flounce, the genuine aim is to help rather than argue.

Good luck with the fight, it's winnable!

[taricha]

I'll mention again.

If anyone has or knows of someone who has a toxic dino species (caused snail deaths or other tank deaths) I'd love to pay shipping to get my hands on them. PM me for details.

[mannyhernz]

...on a more pleasant note I've been dino free for about a year now...I always said I would wait a year before attempting to sell or trade corals and I did in order to not spread the disease around...been trading and selling quite a bit recently and so far so good...before I started I borrowed another microscope and couldn't find a single dino cell...doesn't mean there aren't any there, it just means my system is at a point that it can suppress them...I get green algae on the glass and gha growing in the sump...point is this thing can be beat! find a method that works for you and follow through with it
Hey porkchop..i have also been dino free for over a month! Been doing routine water changes but cant seem to get the gha under control..turbos are eating it up but it doesnt seem to dissipate. What are your methods for controlling the gha after dinos? Thanks for the tips btw..lights out+dirty method definitely did my dinos in.

[karimwassef]

Get an ATS!!

[reefcentral123]

so far so good but I still haven't done a water change. will do so this week.

[mannyhernz]

Get an ATS!!
Cant get one on the fusion 20..but i do have a refugium.

[karimwassef]

If you have external plumbing, you can plumb one in. In my case, I literally used my back end-to-end weir area:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg"/></a>

[mcfa2403]

So I have been fighting dinos in my tank for a couple of days now and have noticed something of interest. I have been siphoning into a filter sock into my sump (in place of water change to remove the dinos) and noticed that underneath the dinos in many spots in the tank are hair algae. I was hoping this meant that it was just cyano coating the hair algae since the rock is all new rock (used cycled media) but texture, 0 no3 and po4 with an overflowing skimmer tells me I am most likely dealing with dinos.

I am fortunate to not be dealing with a toxic variety and have had no deaths due to the unbelievable outbreak so I am taking a methodical approach to dealing with it. The only pieces in this tank are frags (or bubble tips) so I daily pull the frags and clean them to avoid death by smothering. Fish are fine and eating well. My plan is to continue daily manual removal via siphoning, plug cleaning and skimming and will begin dosing phyto. My hope is to limp along without water changes (don't need them anyways at the moment) and hope that the dinos will choke themselves out.

I plan to give this a couple of weeks before trying a more aggressive approach.

[karimwassef]

A UV is ~$100 and three days black out is free. I would start there.

[sinful]

I don't think a $100 UV is going to help with anything...

[karimwassef]

Have you tried it?

Read the last 100 pages .. :D

[mannyhernz]

If you have external plumbing, you can plumb one in. In my case, I literally used my back end-to-end weir area:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg"/></a>
Thats pretty cool...unfortunately, my tank is an aio..but i did manage to install a cpr bak pak fuge..http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160309/193dd91dc8e85719d5d3118195bd1cbb.jpg
You can see it in back

[34cygni]

To be fair to tastyfish...

08/21/2015, 02:40 AM #1570
34cygni

4b. Trophic mode effect
The highest MGR [Maximum Growth Rate] of the HTDs [HeteroTrophic Dinoflagellates] is double the highest MGR of dinoflagellates growing autotrophically. Also, MGRs of small HTDs are much higher than those of similar sized ATDs [AutoTrophic Dinos]. Energy gain of small HTDs through feeding may be higher than that of small ATDs through photosynthesis. Also, enzymes involved in photosynthesis may lower MGRs of dinoflagellates and it is worthwhile exploring this topic. The range of MIRs [Maximum Ingestion Rates] of each HTD was 0.04-24.4 ng C per dinoflagellate per day, while that of each MTD [MixoTrophic Dinoflagellate] species was 0.03-7.0 ng C per dinoflagellate per day. Also, MIRs of HTDs were higher than those of similar sized MTDs (Fig. 5). Heterotrophic activity of HTDs (feeding and digestion) is likely to be higher than that of MTDs.

In other words, among planktonic species heterotrophic dinos eat more and grow faster than mixotrophic dinos. It's likely the same is true of benthic species. Perhaps we can recruit some to help us by providing them with a cryptic environment where they have the home court advantage.


Several of the cells followed in this study were likely to have been cysts. The various forms included: 1) non-motile vegetative-like cells, also called thecate cysts; 2) ecdysal cells with the same shape as vegetative cells, known as pellicle cysts; and 3) round to elongated thin-walled cysts. All of these forms were detected inside threads of mucous and were viable for more than 6 months after their formation, consistent with the suggestion that those cysts could constitute an overwintering population responsible for bloom recurrence. Interestingly, only the mucilage-covered cysts survived in the samples, suggesting that the mucilaginous matrix acts as a protective coat

Emphasis mine. This suggests that an environment rich in heterotrophic bacteria and microfauna would reduce the reproductive success of ostis depositing cysts there, as the protective mucous layer would be eaten away and the cysts exposed.

Maybe 10 days is long enough to commence the shift to a population of benthic microorganisms typical of a cryptic ecosystem powered by secondary producers, making mixotrophic dinos and their cysts food for hungry heterotrophs.

So while I'm not endorsing the idea, I can see a mechanism that might explain why tastyfish is... If it gets some takers and turns out to work as advertised, it may deserve consideration for a spot in the FAQ as the official Measure of Last Resort.


Growth, Feeding and Ecological Roles of the Mixotrophic and Heterotrophic Dinoflagellates in Marine Planktonic Food Webs
http://hosting03.snu.ac.kr/~hjjeong/Publication/OSJ%2045%2065.pdf

Life cycle stages of the benthic palytoxin-producing dinoflagellate Ostreopsis cf. ovata (Dinophyceae)
http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/56377/1/HarAlg18_24_34_post_print.pdf

--

I'm starting to wonder if there's something to ciliate predation - at least for less toxic dino species. ...

Ran across this AA article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/10/breeder on culturing ciliates.

Ciliates are called out as predators on prorocentrum dinos in Growth, Feeding and Ecological Roles of the Mixotrophic and Heterotrophic Dinoflagellates in Marine Planktonic Food Webs, and Montireef reported finding ciliates in his skimmate, so it's reasonable to try culturing them.

Note that the AA culturing technique is about producing microorganisms of maximum nutritional value, as they're talking about culturing them for food. In that paper, the food web diagram indicates that ciliates eat bacteria, so you might be able to culture them (or culture a different species) by triggering a bacteria bloom with a few grains of boiled wheat, rice, or barley.

[Dfee]

Taricha,

How does one ship a sample of Dino? I've never identified mine even though I'm hitting the two year mark with them (I think). I'd scrape some off my glass next time it builds up enough. I'd pay the shipping if you wouldn't mind identifying them for me. And maybe you get lucky and get the species you're looking for.

[reefcentral123]

I don't think a $100 UV is going to help with anything...

it helped for me. :hammer:

[sinful]

i tried finding a reference to a $100 uv. I'm all in on a UV working, I'm actually about to purchase one of the emperor aquatics 18 or 25w. From everything I've read a cheap uv does nothing? Maybe I missed it? Would be great if that was wrong, I'd rather not spend triple that on one if a cheaper one works??

[taricha]

Taricha,

How does one ship a sample of Dino? I've never identified mine even though I'm hitting the two year mark with them (I think). I'd scrape some off my glass next time it builds up enough. I'd pay the shipping if you wouldn't mind identifying them for me. And maybe you get lucky and get the species you're looking for.

This was my answer to my other responder in PM.
I'll post here in case anyone else has a better idea how to ship dinos. Seriously, who ships dinos? And cares about them getting there alive? :-)

"I haven't shipped dinos either.
Dinos are tough enough I hope. I don't expect we'll need to be fancy. I'd suck out a nice amount of them off the rocks or sand or whatever and put in a clean water bottle (like 20oz), filling the rest almost completely with tank water, leave a little air.
Then I'd close it up, and wrap it in towels or old shirts or whatever for cushioning and insulation and shove it in a box."

Yes, I'll gladly put them under the scope and get pics/vids so we can ID them. Thanks a bunch! I'll PM you shipping details.

[taricha]

Maybe 10 days is long enough to commence the shift to a population of benthic microorganisms typical of a cryptic ecosystem powered by secondary producers, making mixotrophic dinos and their cysts food for hungry heterotrophs.

So while I'm not endorsing the idea, I can see a mechanism that might explain why tastyfish is...


I've been thinking about what sort of things change between day 4 and day 10 of darkness. I'd expect die off of various things to significantly pick up making lots of nutrients available to bacteria etc.
And maybe it's not the issue that there's a different mechanism that takes effect between days 4 and 10. Maybe it's just the math of exponential growth: 2 to the 3rd is only 8, but 2 to the 10th power is 1024.

Also, you mentioned a hypothetical benthic heterotrophic dino species. Do we know of any such species? I haven't run across one.

[karimwassef]

i tried finding a reference to a $100 uv. I'm all in on a UV working, I'm actually about to purchase one of the emperor aquatics 18 or 25w. From everything I've read a cheap uv does nothing? Maybe I missed it? Would be great if that was wrong, I'd rather not spend triple that on one if a cheaper one works??

As with all equipment, you'll find people who insist that only the most expensive product works and the rest is garbage...

UV is UV. You can argue that the cheaper models less efficient and will consume more power. You can argue that they're harder to keep clean. You can argue that they're large compared to the more compact versions, you can argue that the bulbs burn out sooner and need to be replaced more often, etc... etc...

But a UV bulb is a UV bulb... will it work? if it puts out enough UV AND you run water through it slowly, it will zap dinos (and anything else). It only took a few days for my tank to clear up, and a month to be dino free. I ran it for a few months after that and now only run it at night...

[sinful]

You ran a $100 uv on a 660g tank and it killed the Dino? Who makes it and where do I buy one?

[karimwassef]

Mine was on special for $140 or so.. now it's $166

http://www.amazon.com/Coralife-15602-Turbo-Twist-Sterilizer/dp/B0064JHW4I

but you can get this and it should work just as well - I didn't find it back then.

http://www.amazon.com/Jebao-55-watt-Clarifier-Sterilizer-Aquarium/dp/B00K1HHG9U

[karimwassef]

If I could go back, I'd get this baby

http://www.amazon.com/Jebao-CW-UV-Clarifier-110-watt/dp/B00UB5SYD4

[DNA]

Pants reported problems with getting dinos alive at his doorstep and I think he said something about shipping here on RC or his website.

[karimwassef]

That's the answer - ship your tank... all dinos will die.

:)

Sorry - a little bad humor always helps when things are rough.

[Dfee]

My work has a lab so I stole one of these sample jars. I'm going to put it in a box with those hand warmers things and bubble wrap. Can't believe I'm trying to keep these things alive.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160310/b07c407d2b3d7a05f4b122ab9bde526e.jpg

As for my tank, still only getting a slight dusting on the glass, mixed with green algae, every couple of days. The "dustings" get noticeably worse when I force myself to do a water change. I think I'm done getting those long brown bubbly strands on rocks and gravel (knock on wood).

Here's a picture of the back glass that i won't clean so I can send a sample to Taricha. Green mixed with the brown. Picture is bad, it's has more brown spots than it appears. Then full tank shot to show it is beatable!
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160310/c299d10b3a7bb2feb2e90d9cb3e27694.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160310/d9c4bf25e80b2a9e81d5042dba438307.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160310/2333b691b1c4c6acab9d015c109945c1.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160310/31a0cbf34b7fc564016e06fcc407b1e5.jpg

[ksc]

i tried finding a reference to a $100 uv. I'm all in on a UV working, I'm actually about to purchase one of the emperor aquatics 18 or 25w. From everything I've read a cheap uv does nothing? Maybe I missed it? Would be great if that was wrong, I'd rather not spend triple that on one if a cheaper one works??

I think I paid $42 for this one. Ran it for a few days and Dinos in remission...


http://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/fish/fish-tank-uv-sterilizers/green-killing-machine-internal-uv-sterilizer-with-power-head-24w

[taricha]

Can't believe I'm trying to keep these things alive.
Hehe. This thread is so full of crazy.
We hate water changes, love algae, pour peroxide, skimmate, and miracle grow in our tanks while overfeeding and starving our tanks in week long darkness.

Thanks for contributing to the insanity!

[Fish Keeper82]

taricha,
How is the sand bed transplant idea/project coming along?

[karimwassef]

Hehe. This thread is so full of crazy.
We hate water changes, love algae, pour peroxide, skimmate, and miracle grow in our tanks while overfeeding and starving our tanks in week long darkness.

Thanks for contributing to the insanity!

well.. when you put it that way

https://i.imgflip.com/mng1j.jpg

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-we-are-all-agreed-that-your-theory-is-crazy-the-question-which-divides-us-is-whether-it-is-crazy-niels-bohr-20211.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xtp1/t51.2885-15/s320x320/e35/12230811_952935911465751_2084701588_n.jpg

[sinful]

Heres a picture of mine. I've been battling them for at least 6 months. This is only one day after completely siphoning them out. They completely disappear at night and are back during the day. I've tried everything I've read to try, short of the UV. I just purchased an 18w emperor aquatics to run on my 57g. Hopefully have it online this weekend. I don't have a positive ID on them but it definitely killed all my snails. Hermits and emerald crabs seem to be fine though.

Steps I've tried
1. 3 day blackout (this cleared the tank for about a day. I noticed small patches by that night and by the next day it was business as usual for them.
2. Dino X ( this worked incredibly well, completely rid my tank for a week, and then all hell broke loose and they came back stronger than ever) increasing dosage had no effect.
3. Hydrogen peroxide 1-2ml per gallon has had no effect.

So my plan of attack this round is going to be the UV, blackout and Dino X.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f236/Mattsworld/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1237_zps46cae1e0.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/Mattsworld/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1237_zps46cae1e0.jpg.html)

[taricha]

taricha,
How is the sand bed transplant idea/project coming along?
The sandbed is ready to go in.
After I siphoned all visible dinos from my DT into the cultured sand, 24 hrs later there were about as many dinos inside the guts of other organisms as there were free swimming dinos. 48 hours, dinos were hard to find.
I'll try to get a microscope video of all the benthic heterotrophs among the sand grains in the cultured sand bed.

I'm not ready for the transplant yet, though. I'm trying to get an established culture of my dinos in a beaker before I wipe them out in my tank.

[jweist]

Get an ATS!!

I would say this is the best advise... I think an ATS has more to do with your success getting rid of dinos, not the uv filter. :)

[34cygni]

Hehe. This thread is so full of crazy.

That may be so, but we come by it honestly...


01/06/2016, 08:16 AM #2547
Quiet_Ivy

Reefing is the definition of empirical science (We do stuff this way and it works but we don't really know why and can't prove it)

Implicit in that observation is the fact that along the way, we try doing a lot of stuff and it doesn't work. Hence karimwassef's rather trenchant sig, I would imagine, and hence a fair chunk of the crazy.


I've been thinking about what sort of things change between day 4 and day 10 of darkness. I'd expect die off of various things to significantly pick up making lots of nutrients available to bacteria etc.
And maybe it's not the issue that there's a different mechanism that takes effect between days 4 and 10. Maybe it's just the math of exponential growth: 2 to the 3rd is only 8, but 2 to the 10th power is 1024.

Yes, a blackout of any length is in essence beginning the change from a "sunlit" to a cryptic ecosystem, and then aborting the process. Heterotrophs rule in the darkness, and a new ecosystem emerges in which, lacking primary producers, the lowest trophic level consists of detrivorous bacteria and protists. Or at least, a new ecosystem begins to emerge... Obviously, the process won't get very far, but as you pointed out the shift would proceed pretty quickly on the micro level because there's lots of food around and microorganisms can reproduce like crazy when conditions are favorable.


Also, you mentioned a hypothetical benthic heterotrophic dino species. Do we know of any such species? I haven't run across one.


Well, I haven't put any time into investigating heterotrophic dinos for their own sake, but this popped when I Googled "benthic heterotrophic dinoflagellate": http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0967026042000202154

This was also in the top 10 hits: http://www.phycologia.org/doi/abs/10.2216/i0031-8884-41-4-382.1

I've always assumed there's a diverse population of benthic heterotrophic dinos on wild reefs, some cross-section of which is present in any hobby system, in part because there are hundreds and hundreds of species of heterotrophic dinos so it seemed likely that some of them had adapted to the benthic environment, and in part because of stuff like this:


08/21/2015, 02:40 AM #1570
34cygni

The importance of dinoflagellates in aquatic communities is hard to overestimate. They are ubiquitous in marine and freshwater environments, where they constitute a large percentage of both the phytoplankton and the microzooplankton, and in benthic communities as interstitial flora and fauna or as symbionts in reef-building corals, other invertebrates and unicellular organisms (Taylor, 1987).

Emphasis mine. Translated from Science, that means both mixotrophic ("flora") and heterotrophic ("fauna") dinos like to live in the little gaps between sand grains.

FWIW, such evidence as we have (which pertains to free swimming dinos) indicates that heterotrophic dinos and small ciliates are the least effective predators on mixotrophic dinos...


Therefore, in MIRs [Maximum Ingestion Rates] and MCRs [Maximum Clearance Rates] of the predators on MTDs [MixoTrophic Dinoflagellates], the general sequence was copepods > large ciliates = the larvae of benthos > small ciliates = HTDs [HeteroTrophic Dinoflagellates].

...so they're probably not the dominant predators in a blacked-out system. Though on the other hand, I expect heterotrophic dinos and small ciliates can bloom, too, meaning they could overwhelm a population of mixotrophic dinos with sheer numbers if given time.


The sandbed is ready to go in.
After I siphoned all visible dinos from my DT into the cultured sand, 24 hrs later there were about as many dinos inside the guts of other organisms as there were free swimming dinos. 48 hours, dinos were hard to find.
I'll try to get a microscope video of all the benthic heterotrophs among the sand grains in the cultured sand bed.

I'm not ready for the transplant yet, though. I'm trying to get an established culture of my dinos in a beaker before I wipe them out in my tank.

Are the dinos in your tank growing back quickly enough to keep up with demand? Bear in mind that the dino-killing organisms you've got need dinos to eat. Without food, their population may die back and your carefully cultivated sand could lose its punch.

--

So my plan of attack this round is going to be the UV, blackout and Dino X.

Part of the crazy around here is acknowledging that dinos are waaaay better at chemical warfare than we are, which means if you go that route, you may find that it actually turns 180 degrees on you and ends up helping the dinos.


08/22/2015, 01:35 PM #1589
cal_stir

First let me say I used algaeX to try to rid my bubble algae, HUGE mistake, it TOTALLY DECIMATED my micro fauna and brought on my dinos.

As I understand it, AlgaeX and DinoX contain the same active ingredient, which would explain the similar results...


2. Dino X ( this worked incredibly well, completely rid my tank for a week, and then all hell broke loose and they came back stronger than ever) increasing dosage had no effect.

You're not the first to observe this (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24290548&postcount=2868) -- at this point, DinoX may do nothing more than select for dinoflagellates that are immune to DinoX. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the widespread application of chemical fixes like DinoX over the years has had a role in selecting for particularly troublesome dinos like ostis, ultimately creating an even worse version of the problem they were meant to solve.

But all that having been said, the combination of UV + H2O2 was played with in 2013 and '14 and abandoned, perhaps because it wasn't yet apparent that when you knock your dinos back, you have to follow through to keep them down -- nobody has tried UV + DinoX that I'm aware of, so who knows? There may be a synergy there, too, and having already nuked your tank more than once, nuking it again probably won't make things worse. But the follow through may be a problem, what with the fallout and all... Meaning that I don't know how effective going dirty or dosing phyto would be with an algicidal chemical in the mix.

[karimwassef]

I would say this is the best advise... I think an ATS has more to do with your success getting rid of dinos, not the uv filter. :)

well.. that's like saying you need to focus on breathing, not eating... You need many things to work together to win.

:D

[Billybatz9]

What's up guys. I've been missing in action for a few weeks, maybe a month. Want to know why? :) Because I've decided that these little bastards will never die. And you just gotta learn to live with them.

[Dfee]

What's up guys. I've been missing in action for a few weeks, maybe a month. Want to know why? :) Because I've decided that these little bastards will never die. And you just gotta learn to live with them.


Ha. Sounds like a good relationship you have there.

[Billybatz9]

A few questions if anyone can answer...

1. Are dinos affected by calcium or alkalinity? Every time I dose, I see a bit of a bloom.
2. Does running blue LED's instead of white affect the dinos?
3. How long do dinos have to be in fresh water to die? If I start my tank over, I would like to keep my zoas.

Ha. Sounds like a good relationship you have there.

I hate this crap! lol no relationship there. Dinos are like the girl who keeps stalking you, even though you told her no a million times.

[taricha]

Are the dinos in your tank growing back quickly enough to keep up with demand? Bear in mind that the dino-killing organisms you've got need dinos to eat. Without food, their population may die back and your carefully cultivated sand could lose its punch.


That could become an issue. Passive things I've been doing in my tank (like growing lots of macro - chaeto and caulerpa) have slowed the dino growth in the DT, so it's a valid concern.
If anyone has a substitute dino sized - 10-50 micron round particulate - food in mind, that would be helpful.
I currently toss in skimmate, fish food, and dead phyto.

Here's a vid of my sandbed on 40x for a shot of what sorts of things are in there.
https://youtu.be/24s9IjAwTqM

[DNA]

Here's a vid of my sandbed on 40x for a shot of what sorts of things are in there.
https://youtu.be/24s9IjAwTqM

It's a busy and fascinating world.
I wonder what a behavioral science would make of it.
Those that move seem to be on a mission and the dark masses hubs.

[jweist]

well.. that's like saying you need to focus on breathing, not eating... You need many things to work together to win.
I agree that a multi pronged approach to fighting these things is definitely a good thing to do... however I feel like there is a lot of talk about the uv sterilizer being the answer but I think it would only do little to combat the dinos without using the ATS as well. In my experience it's much easier to out-compete these things with algae than try to eliminate them all together. All I'm saying is that if you can't find anything to kill the dinos then might as well try an ATS. It worked for me and clearly has worked for you too.

[karimwassef]

likewise, using an ATS alone didn't work. In fact, one of the first indicators of a dino infestation is the death of an ATS...

[Billybatz9]

I agree that a multi pronged approach to fighting these things is definitely a good thing to do... however I feel like there is a lot of talk about the uv sterilizer being the answer but I think it would only do little to combat the dinos without using the ATS as well. In my experience it's much easier to out-compete these things with algae than try to eliminate them all together. All I'm saying is that if you can't find anything to kill the dinos then might as well try an ATS. It worked for me and clearly has worked for you too.
How would you make one for say a biocube 29?

[Dfee]

How would you make one for say a biocube 29?


Is it the one with the window in the back? Where the bioballs would normally go?

[Billybatz9]

Is it the one with the window in the back? Where the bioballs would normally go?

Yes.

[Billybatz9]

Is there any way to clean zoas of dinos? I have colony of about 80 rastas that I would like to transfer to new tank if I tear this one down.

[nvladik]

what's a safe amount to raise nitrates by in a single day? I am trying to get em up to 10ppm (dirty method(ish)), but I can't seem to get em high ehough and dynos are growing like crazy.

[karimwassef]

Is there any way to clean zoas of dinos? I have colony of about 80 rastas that I would like to transfer to new tank if I tear this one down.

Dinos are a function of the tank. If your tank has a healthy diverse biofauna, dinos will die out.

I don't know if there's a removal mechanism that won't just drive them to encyst. Maybe a hydrogen peroxide dip?

[taricha]

what's a safe amount to raise nitrates by in a single day? I am trying to get em up to 10ppm (dirty method(ish)), but I can't seem to get em high ehough and dynos are growing like crazy.
I couldn't keep my N and P simultaneously elevated with just throwing food in the tank. I had to resort to dosing N and P directly.

Started slow, but currently dosing 10ppm nitrate and 0.20ppm phosphate daily. Still don't grow GHA, but at least I get lots of chaeto and caulerpa growth.

Disclaimer: this isn't a recommendation, it's just what I'm doing. I have no sps I care about, and I'm also getting cyano growth, and adding N and/or P will NOT slow down dino growth at first. Only after considerable algae etc is present do the dinos seem to slow down.
Everyone's first reaction to dirty method is "it's not working".

[DNA]

I may have found what is keeping my calcium low.

The repeated siphoning of the dinos has caused the tank to be hazy at times.
With a bright flashlight I found a huge number of nearly invisible white dots on the glass in my overflow.
Looking at them closer revealed a spherical white body with white hairs that sway in the current.
They all need a small personal space which was what drew my attention to them.
Being white they have to be calcium based and they don't need light so they can grow anywhere.

I switched off all the pumps and blasted the rocks and then looked at he debris in the water column.
At least 80% was at the same less than 100 micron size as those little white furballs alive in the overflow.
Their highly reflective bodies can be seen with the naked eye in a bright light against a dark background.

A calcareous skeleton that is less than 100 micron could be coccolithophores, but I've not found a match yet.
I'm already connecting the dots and of course I've got brilliant ideas now on my next move.

[nvladik]

I couldn't keep my N and P simultaneously elevated with just throwing food in the tank. I had to resort to dosing N and P directly.

Started slow, but currently dosing 10ppm nitrate and 0.20ppm phosphate daily. Still don't grow GHA, but at least I get lots of chaeto and caulerpa growth.

Disclaimer: this isn't a recommendation, it's just what I'm doing. I have no sps I care about, and I'm also getting cyano growth, and adding N and/or P will NOT slow down dino growth at first. Only after considerable algae etc is present do the dinos seem to slow down.
Everyone's first reaction to dirty method is "it's not working".

Agreed, throwing food into the tank is nothing, it's like a breakfast for dynos. I am dosing KNO3 already, and thanks for confirming the dose. I have SPS, but will give 10ppm a go anyway.

What do you do se for Phosphates? Can you point me in the right direction for some reading materials? Thanks!!!

[DNA]

After looking through the coccolithophores images available on the web for a while I get it why I didn't find a match.
Most of them are of dead ones and the the hair like feature has fallen off, but can often be seen laying around.

Below you can see coccoliths (armor plates ) with the "hair" still attached.
I have to say this has begun to look convincing.

Edit: I've cleverly set the size of my possible coccolithophore at slightly less than 50 microns for the core.


http://jm.lyellcollection.org/content/29/2/135/F3.large.jpg

[pdiehm]

saw the beginnings of dino's in my tank. immediately shut the lights off and covered the tank. That night, I dosed 12ml peroxide. The next morning, I dosed 12ml peroxide. Have done this for 5 straight days. The fuzz on the rocks is disappearing and almost completely gone. Will continue to attack it this way for another 3-5 days.

Will do a 15g water change this week sometime, but so far the lights out and peroxide has done a pretty good job of clearing off the rocks. I have been turning the light on for 2 or so hours so the anemone gets some light.

My last test was 2ppm NO3 and 0ppm Phosphates. It's the first time in a few months I've gotten a NO3 reading, so I'm slowly killing off the organisms that were using the nutrients for food.

At least I think...whether that's accurate or not, I can't say, but it sounds good and makes sense to me :)

[joshky]

I tried multiple tactics to rid my tank of dinos and only just recently feel like I won the battle. It was dramatic and I doubt many would do this, but I chose to get rid of my old rock and 75% of my old sand and replaced it with TBS 2.1 live rock and live sand from the Gulf. The thing that stood out to me in all of this was biodiversity is a key component to not having issues with dinos, since the switch on 2-27-16 I haven't had another issue with dinos and I know it's still in my system, the point wasn't to "remove" it, but to make it hard for it to take over. Since the switch my SPS have already started recovering from pretty bad STN and browning out, so I'm really encouraged right now and I hope that I don't see them again.

FWIW the 30g package I chose from TBS was similar in price ($550~ after air freight cost) to the UV sterilizers I was looking at to rid my tank of dinos, this rock is a lot more interesting than another piece of equipment to clutter my sump area.

[karimwassef]

I tried multiple tactics to rid my tank of dinos and only just recently feel like I won the battle. It was dramatic and I doubt many would do this, but I chose to get rid of my old rock and 75% of my old sand and replaced it with TBS 2.1 live rock and live sand from the Gulf. The thing that stood out to me in all of this was biodiversity is a key component to not having issues with dinos, since the switch on 2-27-16 I haven't had another issue with dinos and I know it's still in my system, the point wasn't to "remove" it, but to make it hard for it to take over. Since the switch my SPS have already started recovering from pretty bad STN and browning out, so I'm really encouraged right now and I hope that I don't see them again.

FWIW the 30g package I chose from TBS was similar in price ($550~ after air freight cost) to the UV sterilizers I was looking at to rid my tank of dinos, this rock is a lot more interesting than another piece of equipment to clutter my sump area.

I got UV and fresh live rock. In my case, I got a $150 UV and $150 live rock. It saved my 660gal.

[jweist]

one of the first indicators of a dino infestation is the death of an ATS...
I wouldn't say this is true or else it wouldn't have worked for me and many others.

How would you make one for say a biocube 29?
The easiest way would be to throw a upflow scrubber in the back area. Or jimmy rig a water fall scrubber with acrylic in the middle chamber.

Dinos are a function of the tank. If your tank has a healthy diverse biofauna, dinos will die out.
Maybe, If the "biofauna" is able to out compete the dinos for excess available nutrients in the water. And by biofauna I am assuming you are referring to the autotrophs of the tank. More animals would only potentially make more nutrients in the water not less.

saw the beginnings of dino's in my tank. immediately shut the lights off and covered the tank... Will continue to attack it this way for another 3-5 days....I'm slowly killing off the organisms that were using the nutrients for food.

Light out will kill the organisms that were eating the excess nutrients but it will also release all of those nutrients back into the tank, allowing another dino bloom to take place in the near future. Dinos grow very fast and are quick to get the first grab at the nutrients in the water.

[taricha]

Agreed, throwing food into the tank is nothing, it's like a breakfast for dynos. I am dosing KNO3 already, and thanks for confirming the dose. I have SPS, but will give 10ppm a go anyway.

What do you do se for Phosphates? Can you point me in the right direction for some reading materials? Thanks!!!

here's what I would recommend:
either Seachem flourish - phosphorus. It's derived from potassium phosphate.
or find a high P fish food, one that has fish meal as the first several ingredients.

what I actually did:
I used a miracle grow 4-12-4 (N-P-K) derived from ammonium phosphate, potassium phosphate and urea, nothing else.
Then I read a suggestion in the macroalgae forum that the simultaneous presence of nitrate, phosphate, and ammonia can cause cyano and although I was very pleased with macro growth, the cyano growth is unacceptable.

So to get away from ammonia & urea I tried changing to an industrial cleaner from home depot: Trisodium Phosphate (TSP)-
It's 80% trisodium phosphate dodecahydrate, and 20% sodium sesquicarbonate. 6% phosphorus by mass. I ran the numbers based on amounts I intended to add, and although my chem knowledge is pretty limited, there was nothing in there that put up red flags for me. My KH was a little low anyway, and I could stand for my pH to rise a little.
It hasn't helped with the cyano growth, and my halimeda seems to be dying back, so I'm probably going to pull the plug on the TSP.

I read bunch of stuff in the macro forum, they do a lot of work with controlling nutrients other than with fish food.

[nvladik]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160313/41a77c4dd4326245f402987cae5eeadf.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160313/dcd8b821645e82418bb2446a3ef5488d.jpg

[nvladik]

What do you guys think? Dyno immigration program or dyno breeding program?

I noticed for a while that if I have something porous in the tank right in the flow, dynos love to attach to it. So I thought of trying to add a bigger surface area, and once a day wash it in tap to kill them. Need advice, will this help lower the number of dynos in the overall system so other methods are more effective or am I creating more ares for them to grow on. I did notice more dynos on the net and less on sand/rock.

[nvladik]

here's what I would recommend:
either Seachem flourish - phosphorus. It's derived from potassium phosphate.
or find a high P fish food, one that has fish meal as the first several ingredients.

what I actually did:
I used a miracle grow 4-12-4 (N-P-K) derived from ammonium phosphate, potassium phosphate and urea, nothing else.
Then I read a suggestion in the macroalgae forum that the simultaneous presence of nitrate, phosphate, and ammonia can cause cyano and although I was very pleased with macro growth, the cyano growth is unacceptable.

So to get away from ammonia & urea I tried changing to an industrial cleaner from home depot: Trisodium Phosphate (TSP)-
It's 80% trisodium phosphate dodecahydrate, and 20% sodium sesquicarbonate. 6% phosphorus by mass. I ran the numbers based on amounts I intended to add, and although my chem knowledge is pretty limited, there was nothing in there that put up red flags for me. My KH was a little low anyway, and I could stand for my pH to rise a little.
It hasn't helped with the cyano growth, and my halimeda seems to be dying back, so I'm probably going to pull the plug on the TSP.

I read bunch of stuff in the macro forum, they do a lot of work with controlling nutrients other than with fish food.

Thanks taricha. I picked up Aquavitro Activate, same concept as flourish and will give it a go in small doses first.

[karimwassef]

What do you guys think? Dyno immigration program or dyno breeding program?

I noticed for a while that if I have something porous in the tank right in the flow, dynos love to attach to it. So I thought of trying to add a bigger surface area, and once a day wash it in tap to kill them. Need advice, will this help lower the number of dynos in the overall system so other methods are more effective or am I creating more ares for them to grow on. I did notice more dynos on the net and less on sand/rock.

A dino scrubber? Hmmm maybe.

[karimwassef]

I wouldn't say this is true or else it wouldn't have worked for me and many others.

Maybe, If the "biofauna" is able to out compete the dinos for excess available nutrients in the water. And by biofauna I am assuming you are referring to the autotrophs of the tank. More animals would only potentially make more nutrients in the water not less.

I didn't say ATS doesn't work. I said it's usually not enough. This isn't theory- it's based on the experiences in this thread. And yes - dinos can and have killed ATSs.

Biofauna is competition, as well as predatory. The reason dinos take over in the first place is because of artificial conditions created in our tanks due to the extinction of competitors and predators. There's usually a critical event that destroys the natural state and sets up a stage for dinos.

The dinos then "terraform" or "mariform" the water chemistry so they stay on top of the food chain. The slow flow UV with darkness and skimming shrinks their numbers and exports their waste and chemicals, so the tank has a foothold on a "natural" state. Then the live rock brings in competition and predation that kicks them in the proverbial teeth!

But dinos never go away. They're always waiting for that unnatural state to come back so they can wreck the environment again.

[jweist]

I didn't say ATS doesn't work. I said it's usually not enough. This isn't theory- it's based on the experiences in this thread. And yes - dinos can and have killed ATSs.

Biofauna is competition, as well as predatory. The reason dinos take over in the first place is because of artificial conditions created in our tanks due to the extinction of competitors and predators. There's usually a critical event that destroys the natural state and sets up a stage for dinos.

The dinos then "terraform" or "mariform" the water chemistry so they stay on top of the food chain. The slow flow UV with darkness and skimming shrinks their numbers and exports their waste and chemicals, so the tank has a foothold on a "natural" state. Then the live rock brings in competition and predation that kicks them in the proverbial teeth!

But dinos never go away. They're always waiting for that unnatural state to come back so they can wreck the environment again.

I never said to use an ATS alone... I'm saying that the blackout method will kill some of the dinos (not all) and will release nutrients back into the water which a skimmer would not be able to touch.

In my experience anything that releases nutrients back into the water is a bad way to go about it... sorry but I think uv sterilizer would fall under this category too because of the die off it would create. The unnatural state that dinos love would easily be created by a big die off.

Dinos usually are the first to populate a new or freshly cleaned scrubber screen. They also like low lit areas so if your light isn't powerful enough they will probably out compete hair algae.

Fauna means animals and animals can't process every last bit of the nutrients they take in. I think you mean flora which is plant life and they can out-compete dinos if there numbers are great enough.

[karimwassef]

pods and ciliates are predators
algae and phyto are competitors

UV kills dinos. Their bodies become waste organics.
skimmers remove organics - that's the waste bodies before they decompose into inorganics
inorganics can be exported via a GFO, chaeto or an ATS

I choose to use all weapons in my arsenal. The first assault is UV. The second is skimming. The third is ATS.

It's like saying "I'll only use ground troops.. air troops are not worth it.."

There are many on here who have used slow flow UV successfully. Your experience may be different. We can learn from that. But I wouldn't discount information gained from others.

When you used UV, was it fast flow or slow flow?

[34cygni]

With a bright flashlight I found a huge number of nearly invisible white dots on the glass in my overflow.
Looking at them closer revealed a spherical white body with white hairs that sway in the current.
They all need a small personal space which was what drew my attention to them.
Being white they have to be calcium based and they don't need light so they can grow anywhere.

From what you describe, foraminifera may be better candidates than cocos. Take a look at the following and see what you think...

Introduction to the Foraminifera
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/foram/foramintro.html

The Hooper Virtual Natural History Museum
https://uccforams.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/biology/

Modern foraminifera: biological and ecological basics
http://www.geo.tu-freiberg.de/oberseminar/os05_06/sindy_becker.pdf

Note the little hairs radiating from the forams in a couple of the micrographs -- they're clearly visible in the first image on the Wikipedia page for forams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foraminifera). That seems to track with your description and would explain why they each have their own little space. There are on the order of 4000 species of forams, 99% of which are benthic, interestingly. IIRC, you described finding tiny shells (http://hoopermuseum.earthsci.carleton.ca/forams/PAGE6.HTM) and rods (http://hoopermuseum.earthsci.carleton.ca/forams/PAGE5.HTM) in the calcareous debris you previously reported, both of which are shapes made by benthic forams.

BTW, some pink sand beaches are known to get their color from foram shells. I can't help but wonder if there's a connection to this...


04/30/2014, 04:11 PM #206
Squidmotron

I just discovered something that is interesting. Since I have never heard this before in relation to dinos I thought I would pass it along.

Today I added about 15 lbs of pink somoa sand (not live) sand to my refugium. I was curious if there was any particular reason the dinos weren't growing much in my refugium and so thought to recreate the environment of the aquarium above. My refugium never had any substrate. Just caulerpa.

Within 4 hours, dino populations exploded. And I mean exploded. Dinos rose to much larger than normal heights in their usual spots and started covering all the rocks. The substrate began literally bubbling as new dinos formed (even in tank areas where I did not add sand).

(and yes, these are not diatoms -- as you might expect from the addition of sand -- although I wonder if there are both present)

--

one of the first indicators of a dino infestation is the death of an ATS...

I wouldn't say this is true or else it wouldn't have worked for me and many others.

08/02/2014, 09:22 PM #311
Amphiprion

My 40g system started off with an algal scrubber, which maintained undetectable PO4 and NO3. A month or two of this and the introduction of something that had the dinoflagellates on it led to a quick explosion. The initial bloom was so severe that it killed the entire scrubber within a couple of days--the filamentous algae literally turned golden and sloughed away.

09/21/2015, 10:00 AM #1874
Cyberdude

The dinos killed it. No green algae left anywhere.

And there's this, as well...


08/25/2014, 06:25 PM #326
yeldarbj

I finally can share some positive results with my dino battle. I had an ostreopsis variety. I posted a microscopic video on one of these dino threads, and Pants is the one who suggested I had ostreopsis due to the tether-ball like motion showed.

My theory is that the dinos bloomed when there was an absence of other competing algaes. I had zero nitrates and zero phosphates at the time my dinos starting presenting last January. Like others, I've tried all the various methods without success. I started a small, homemade algae turf scrubber just to see if I could grow green algae. It was moderately successful. I cleaned the screen about every 4-6 weeks but saw no impact on the dinos. I tried increased feeding and dosing nitrate, silicate, and iron just to try to grow algae. ...

I should mention that I have an sps dominant tank, 105g with 6 fish. I fed the fish once per day and maintained Ca/Alk with dosing pumps and dose kalk every hour with the dosing pump. By the middle of August, my nitrate levels have climbed to about 2.5 ppm and phosphate to about 0.06 on a Hannah checker.

AND THE DINOFLAGELLATES ARE GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do now have some hair algae and cyano in the display tank that is a welcome sight. The only form of filtration that I'm using now is the algae scrubber, but it doesn't even seem to be growing much. I'm starting to see pods on the glass that I haven't seen since last fall.

Hopefully this information can help someone.

To reiterate, this is what worked for yeldarbj...


04/20/2015, 12:14 PM #966
yeldarbj

If you want a permanent solution, then I'd suggest nutrients, nutrients, nutrients. I've been skimmerless for 10 months now and dino free (ostreospsis) for 8 months. I run a small home made algae turf scrubber for filtration and have a full sps tank. Algae is your friend and the dino's enemy.

It seems yeldarbj may have invented the dirty method!

[jweist]

pods and ciliates are predators
algae and phyto are competitors

UV kills dinos. Their bodies become waste organics.
skimmers remove organics - that's the waste bodies before they decompose into inorganics
inorganics can be exported via a GFO, chaeto or an ATS

I choose to use all weapons in my arsenal. The first assault is UV. The second is skimming. The third is ATS.

It's like saying "I'll only use ground troops.. air troops are not worth it.."

There are many on here who have used slow flow UV successfully. Your experience may be different. We can learn from that. But I wouldn't discount information gained from others.

When you used UV, was it fast flow or slow flow?

I'm not saying to only use an ATS, so your analogies don't make sense. I am saying that I think it's a big part of the equation.
I'm also not denying the fact that UV could kill dinos at a slow enough flow. I don't know if my UV was slow enough to kill the dinos but it definitely killed other things releasing their nutrients back into the water. This large flux of nutrients slows down the scrubber and can give the dinos a chance to get a foot hold in the tank again. Same thing would apply to anything that creates die off; blackout, peroxide, UV, etc.



And there's this, as well...

To reiterate, this is what worked for yeldarbj...

It seems yeldarbj may have invented the dirty method!
Macros will usually get smothered by dinos too easily to be effective at competing against them. And if there is not a big enough area for them to grow out it won't make much of a dent on the nutrient levels anyway.
I already said that dinos can out-compete GHA if the light is weak. Yeldarbj probably created a situation where he has a lot of algae everywhere in his tank including the scrubber that are competing with the dinos and keeping them in check. If he left his scrubber going for over a month at a time and it still never grew GHA then his light was weak. Not to mention the die off that would happen underneath the top layers (because of his lack of cleaning), increasing the food for the dinos and decreasing competition. It's hard to tell from the information provided but I'm guessing that if he scrapped off the top layer of dinos there would be green underneath... this and the algae he has in the tank are what's controlling the dinos. Dinos need N & P to live... that's a fact. They are also very quick to grow and eat these nutrients. If there is nothing competing with them for the available nutrients the dinos will win every time. If the GHA is doing a better job than dinos at sucking up the nutrients in the water then you have a healthy tank. Purposefully trying to increase the nutrients in the water is going to make to dinos grow like crazy until GHA or similar starts to grow to a point where they out compete the dinos for nutrients and space.

[karimwassef]

If you kill dinos, they create waste that must be exported ... Agree

Your view states that the clean method and the dirty method both don't work. The evidence from the many posts here is that they both actually do work.

For a long time, the conventional method was to reduce N and P... It didn't work. Some have exited the hobby using that approach.

It's great that just adding live rock worked for you, but it's an isolated datapoint. Even in the clean method with slow flow UV, you need to feed the algae to compete with dinos. You just need to export enough dinos to offset the balance and win the war.

[jweist]

Your view states that the clean method and the dirty method both don't work. The evidence from the many posts here is that they both actually do work.
What? No, my view is that competition is key. In any case of dinos they are the first to populate an area because of the quick rate they can grow, especially in low nutrient environments without sufficient competition. Now if you drop an A bomb on the tank and kill everything, good and bad, you will loose a lot of the things that were trying to keep the tank free of dinos as well as the dinos themselves. In this scenario the dinos have the upper hand after the die off because of their fast assimilation rate. The reason an ATS is necessary is because it utilizes light, flow, and attachment to its full potential. This is needed to be able to suck up the little amount of nutrients in the system that the dinos are feeding off of. I think the dirty method could work because it would increase competition in the system, basically creating a weak scrubber in the display. I wouldn't recommend doing it this way... but I'm not saying it doesn't work.
For a long time, the conventional method was to reduce N and P... It didn't work. Some have exited the hobby using that approach.

I used to think if my N & P are testing zero then how are these things growing? Well if there are dinos growing in your tank then there are nutrients in the system and the dinos are eating it up fast. Faster than the competition (what ever that maybe).
It's great that just adding live rock worked for you, but it's an isolated datapoint.
I never added new live rock to my tank. All I did was increase competition within the tank. In fact I wouldn't recommend any changes to the live rock, even rearranging it. Putting new live rock in would cause die off and increase nutrients.
Even in the clean method with slow flow UV, you need to feed the algae to compete with dinos.
If your feeding the tank at all then there are new nutrients being delivered to the tank and if dinos are growing that's enough for algae.
You just need to export enough dinos to offset the balance and win the war.
Exporting dinos is great because your getting rid of nutrients from the system, while keeping the completion in the tank. Killing things will reintroduce their nutrients back into the tank. There's no way your skimmer is pulling all the dying organics out before they turn into inorganics.

[joshky]

I got UV and fresh live rock. In my case, I got a $150 UV and $150 live rock. It saved my 660gal.

Surprised you were able to do it so cheaply for a 660g system, but that's awesome. I absolutely love the decision I made and my corals couldn't be better off right now, so in the end I can't put a price on that.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread, dinos has to be one of the worst things you can battle in this hobby and will take over when you least expect it.

[DNA]

From what you describe, foraminifera may be better candidates than cocos.

You may be right here, but it would be at the extreme small end for foraminifera that start at 50 microns.

In my last experiment I described how low calcium and alkalinity led to the demise of nearly all my dinos.
In this one I siphon at least half of the dinos twice a week and notice hazy water column at times and calcareous critters.
These are hints to what could be going on with the increase in dinos after water changes that many have reported.

Manual removal is surely not going to rid you of dinos, but the there is a population explosion going on right now with the pods and various micro critters.

[Billybatz9]

Surprised you were able to do it so cheaply for a 660g system, but that's awesome. I absolutely love the decision I made and my corals couldn't be better off right now, so in the end I can't put a price on that.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread, dinos has to be one of the worst things you can battle in this hobby and will take over when you least expect it.

What did you do?

[nvladik]

Quick update on the dyno scrubber, if you are just looking to lower your numbers before hitting them with UV, Dirty Method, or anything else, scrubber is working. After 2 days, it was full of dynos, and I barely see any on Rock, Sand, etc.

[joshky]

What did you do?

I posted what I had done a few posts up. :) You can read/see more in my tank thread in my signature.

I tried multiple tactics to rid my tank of dinos and only just recently feel like I won the battle. It was dramatic and I doubt many would do this, but I chose to get rid of my old rock and 75% of my old sand and replaced it with TBS 2.1 live rock and live sand from the Gulf. The thing that stood out to me in all of this was biodiversity is a key component to not having issues with dinos, since the switch on 2-27-16 I haven't had another issue with dinos and I know it's still in my system, the point wasn't to "remove" it, but to make it hard for it to take over. Since the switch my SPS have already started recovering from pretty bad STN and browning out, so I'm really encouraged right now and I hope that I don't see them again.

FWIW the 30g package I chose from TBS was similar in price ($550~ after air freight cost) to the UV sterilizers I was looking at to rid my tank of dinos, this rock is a lot more interesting than another piece of equipment to clutter my sump area.

[karimwassef]

There's no way your skimmer is pulling all the dying organics out before they turn into inorganics.

Here's my skimmer

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/BBC3548B-3CF2-44DF-9B5C-65B388EAFB33_zpshpfnzb51.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/BBC3548B-3CF2-44DF-9B5C-65B388EAFB33_zpshpfnzb51.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo BBC3548B-3CF2-44DF-9B5C-65B388EAFB33_zpshpfnzb51.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/320F8392-4BE8-4695-B1E9-F0C67309ABDC_zpstpgbvfnu.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/320F8392-4BE8-4695-B1E9-F0C67309ABDC_zpstpgbvfnu.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 320F8392-4BE8-4695-B1E9-F0C67309ABDC_zpstpgbvfnu.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FC19F6E3-4EDC-4186-9971-A607076A04BE_zpsfppdvfbp.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FC19F6E3-4EDC-4186-9971-A607076A04BE_zpsfppdvfbp.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FC19F6E3-4EDC-4186-9971-A607076A04BE_zpsfppdvfbp.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CD09A857-D198-4BC6-A212-DCE6FF7F198F_zpslfofjvbp.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CD09A857-D198-4BC6-A212-DCE6FF7F198F_zpslfofjvbp.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CD09A857-D198-4BC6-A212-DCE6FF7F198F_zpslfofjvbp.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/24ACB13F-AE35-48B7-B7EF-DF3FDDA522F2_zpsq9ejpdia.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/24ACB13F-AE35-48B7-B7EF-DF3FDDA522F2_zpsq9ejpdia.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 24ACB13F-AE35-48B7-B7EF-DF3FDDA522F2_zpsq9ejpdia.jpg"/></a>

daily output is 2qts of liquid waste

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1348F12E-96C0-4A4D-AEAF-7470DABE230B_zpsajua2ixa.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1348F12E-96C0-4A4D-AEAF-7470DABE230B_zpsajua2ixa.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1348F12E-96C0-4A4D-AEAF-7470DABE230B_zpsajua2ixa.jpg"/></a>

It's a dual Beckett injected 12' tall skimmer.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/26F0C07C-EF53-4952-9591-5200D91049BE_zps5huozlyp.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/26F0C07C-EF53-4952-9591-5200D91049BE_zps5huozlyp.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 26F0C07C-EF53-4952-9591-5200D91049BE_zps5huozlyp.jpg"/></a>

The solid waste builds up every month. I don't weight it (maybe I should), but a picture is worth 1000 words:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/8A2B6C5D-5712-4ED0-A985-525A255EB4EE_zpsu84ucdix.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/8A2B6C5D-5712-4ED0-A985-525A255EB4EE_zpsu84ucdix.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 8A2B6C5D-5712-4ED0-A985-525A255EB4EE_zpsu84ucdix.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/6EBCFDD3-BDA3-4427-82FF-ED75EC5A57D2_zpssax3wime.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/6EBCFDD3-BDA3-4427-82FF-ED75EC5A57D2_zpssax3wime.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6EBCFDD3-BDA3-4427-82FF-ED75EC5A57D2_zpssax3wime.jpg"/></a>

It may be a DIY, but it's the best skimmer I've seen.

Always surprised at opinions without seeing it :)

[karimwassef]

I also employ a 6' ATS scrubber that generates about 250g every two weeks

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg"/></a>

[karimwassef]

I think it's safe to say - I get "export"... :D

I feed massive quantities of food a day too. I see nutrients as fuel for my machine.

I also consume about a Kg of Kalkwasser powder a month... Just to avoid any assumptions :)

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/36F7CA67-A057-463C-8FC6-D0E00D9E235B_zpsejmz65a0.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/36F7CA67-A057-463C-8FC6-D0E00D9E235B_zpsejmz65a0.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 36F7CA67-A057-463C-8FC6-D0E00D9E235B_zpsejmz65a0.jpg"/></a>

[karimwassef]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dmvs2wrmPro" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ydYQXfrdlJU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UdAnkP8qDqw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8YovhOlNYFI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[jason2459]

I think there's a Trump like joke in there somewhere... :bigeyes:

[karimwassef]

What? The I get "export" bit?

I said EXport, not DEport. :)

[jweist]

Here's my skimmer
daily output is 2qts of liquid waste
The solid waste builds up every month. I don't weight it (maybe I should), but a picture is worth 1000 words:
It may be a DIY, but it's the best skimmer I've seen.
Always surprised at opinions without seeing it :)
That's a cool DIY skimmer and I'm sure it works well. But the fact that there is algae growing on the screen means the skimmer is not grabbing all organics before they break down into inorganics.
Lack of biodiversity at the bottom of the food change is what allows dinos to flourish. This happens much easier at low nutrient levels because the competition in the tank is almost nonexistent. Algae will not grow (in the display) at these low nutrient levels without maximizing light, flow and attachment with an ATS.

[karimwassef]

back when I had dinos, I wasn't feeding as much... or exporting as much.

In fact, my big extinction event was using LaCl. It crashed my phosphates so quickly that all algae melted in 24hrs and gave dinos a foothold.

I hit them with everything. First UV, then wet skimming + carbon + new chaeto + new live rock + blackout + thousands of pods + phyto. Then I cranked up my feeding and installed an ATS...

Now it's all going full blast. I still run UV at night... and in case you think that's killing my biodiversity - look at my videos. As long as I feed phyto and turn off my skimmer at night, my plankton base stays thick and the dino s are non-existent.

[koral_lover]

joining this party.

my tank is 8 months old - a month after stocking several sps, dinos have hit.

I am not sure the reason. My theory is that I overdosed nitrate, which drove my phosphate down to nothing, then dinos got a foot hold.

I am grateful this thread exists. I have done a black out 2 weeks ago, they all melted, but slowly came back. I could keep them at bay if I fed minimally and skimmed hard, but my sps were suffering and pale. I realize I can't go on like this.

I am going to try the dirty method and see if I can get some other algaes or cyano growing.

Started three days ago. It is painful to watch - I am literally dumping in the food morning and night and the dinos have gone crazy in terms of growth. It seems I need to let them get worse before I see other algaes popping up.

I do notice a lot more pod action on the glass.

What is really strange - ever since I got dinos, I can't get any green film or brown dusting on the glass - even after several days...

Will update anyone with my results - Really depressed, my sps are pale or brown, no growth, no 2 part consumption, and fish seem stressed. I hope my tank comes through.

Feeding 2 cubes of PE mysis, dose of Fuel, 1 flake feeding, and 1 cube of cyclopeeze at night. Skimmer is now off. Just running chaeto - lit 24/7 in sump.

[karimwassef]

why ?

You're ok taking the risk killing your SPS when a slow flow UV and wet skimming in blackout will give you the position to reset your tank's chemistry? then add phyto and a little food to establish your algae and you can change the vector of life in the tank.

I understand wanting to avoid paying $70 for a 36W UV sterilizer if you just have a couple of fish or some softies or LPS... but seeing SPS die for that little seems ..............

just my clearly biased opinion and earnest desire to help.

[jweist]

back when I had dinos, I wasn't feeding as much... or exporting as much.
Exporting what skimmate? That would make sense since it has less food to pull out.
I hit them with everything. First UV, then wet skimming + carbon + new chaeto + new live rock + blackout + thousands of pods + phyto. Then I cranked up my feeding and installed an ATS...
Now it's all going full blast. I still run UV at night... and in case you think that's killing my biodiversity - look at my videos. As long as I feed phyto and turn off my skimmer at night, my plankton base stays thick and the dino s are non-existent.
I don't want to critique your system plus you don't have dinos in your tank so why would I... I will say though that if your adding live phyto then every night when your UV comes on it would be killing it and creating more food for pods. So instead of using the phyto to suck up inorganics, you're using it more as a food source (fine either way).
When you tell me your story I don't see it the same way as you... what I see is that you tried a bunch of different approaches that were not working so you added an ATS and now you have no dinos.
I could keep them at bay if I fed minimally and skimmed hard, but my sps were suffering and pale. I realize I can't go on like this.
Dinos aren't growing as much because there is less nutrients in the water but on the other hand your corals are suffering from lack of food. So by skimming hard your taking out almost all the corals food but leaving the inorganics that the dinos can still eat up.
I do notice a lot more pod action on the glass. There's more food in the water for pods... they don't care if they're eating dinos, phyto, or GHA... in any case their population is limited by available food.
What is really strange - ever since I got dinos, I can't get any green film or brown dusting on the glass - even after several days...That's because the dinos are eating up the inorganics before the algae on the glass has a chance to.
You're ok taking the risk killing your SPS when a slow flow UV and wet skimming in blackout will give you the position to reset your tank's chemistry? then add phyto and a little food to establish your algae and you can change the vector of life in the tank.
I understand wanting to avoid paying $70 for a 36W UV sterilizer if you just have a couple of fish or some softies or LPS... but seeing SPS die for that little seems ..............just my clearly biased opinion and earnest desire to help.
See this is what is getting to me... you have an ATS and no dinos but every time you give advise you leave this giant detail out. I appreciate you giving help it's just your advise of getting a UV sterilizer as the main fix is not a good solution. First of all it's not proven at all that the UV can eliminate dinos to a point where other algae can take over. Second it's expensive... $70 minimum where as an ATS could could cost less than 20 bucks. And third is that between UV, skimming, and blackouts there is nothing here to control/export the nutrients that will be released from the die off caused by UV and blackouts. This would only perpetuate the dinos. I can also say that loosing my corals especially the sps is not OK with me. I would spend a lot of money for this not to happen... but if there is a big possibility this is going to happen anyway then what would be the point of spending money on a UV sterilizer or anything else for that matter.

[taricha]

I am not sure the reason. My theory is that I overdosed nitrate, which drove my phosphate down to nothing, then dinos got a foot hold.

I have done a black out 2 weeks ago, they all melted, but slowly came back.

I am going to try the dirty method and see if I can get some other algaes or cyano...

What is really strange - ever since I got dinos, I can't get any green film or brown dusting on the glass - even after several days...


Lots of the above resonates with my experience. I dosed nitrates to drop my P, killed off my GHA and poof....dinos.

Blackouts and dino-cidal chemicals...
So you remove dinos. Great. What did you replace them with?
I think we need this as a slogan, to remove dinos you must first decide what to replace them with. We need something catchy in the form of a bumper sticker or kung fu proverb.
"In dinos, there is no remove. There is only replace." Hopefully someone else can do better.

Cyano is a no no. Dinos and cyano are BFFs and joined at the hip. It's not a candidate for replacing dinos.

Just throwing food in the tank does not automatically ensure you'll have elevated N and P. Quite often they are out of balance and one is elevated while the other is limiting factor for growth. Test and adjust.

[jweist]

great answer. :thumbsup:

[pdiehm]

So if you have no nitrates, no phosphates (in my case no corals), how is it possible that Dino's can survive?

[jweist]

So if you have no nitrates, no phosphates (in my case no corals), how is it possible that Dino's can survive?
You don't have zero if they are growing... you need something to fight with them for the available nutrients.

[taricha]

"Zero" nutrients isn't zero. It's a small amount constantly going into the water column from biological processes, coupled with that small amount being taken up by other biological processes almost as soon as it enters.

In your case, dinos are doing the uptake maybe directly, or maybe through some bacterial friends of theirs.

[pdiehm]

You don't have zero if they are growing... you need something to fight with them for the available nutrients.

ok, it's been said you need to replace them with something, such as?

Essentially what I'm asking is, if you go into a low nutrient system, such as a zeovit, or prodibio, or whatever, the thinking is there's such low nutrients in the water, that "in theory" no nuisance algae can grow, let alone survive.

In zeovit for example, they say to remove the PO4 reactor, and take the refugium out because once the system takes hold, there's no nutrients to grow the macro-algae.

In the thread, I've seen you remove the dino's, but you need to replace them with something else, but haven't seen anyone say, these are what you can replace the dino's with?

Having said that, i looked on the reefcleaners website, and the fuzz growing on my rocks, may not have been dino's, but looks a lot like Calothrix. The stuff only grew on my rocks, looked very much like peach fuzz. Not once did it grow on the sand or substrate.

[jweist]

ok, it's been said you need to replace them with something, such as?
algaeEssentially what I'm asking is, if you go into a low nutrient system, such as a zeovit, or prodibio, or whatever, the thinking is there's such low nutrients in the water, that "in theory" no nuisance algae can grow, let alone survive.Yeah, this is the problem. When we artificially take the nutrients out of the water we are starving the bottom of the food chain and it isn't able thrive. If you look at a trophic pyramid of the ocean, aglae and phyto are at the bottom and are the biggest portion of the model. In the conditions like your describing the model gets flipped upside down because proportionally you have very little algae compared to the top of the pyramid. We know that if dinos are growing then is safe to say you have some sort of nutrients in the water. Under low nutrient conditions (not zero) algae is not able to grow in the tank because light, flow, and attachment is not used to its full potential. When there is low nutrients and no algae anywhere in the system dinos are able to thrive like green hair algae in a high nutrient tank.

In the thread, I've seen you remove the dino's, but you need to replace them with something else, but haven't seen anyone say, these are what you can replace the dino's with?I have, algae. I'm saying that in order to do this using the "clean method" you need to maximize the conditions that grow algae. These are light, flow, and attachment and without a scrubber this can not be done.

[koral_lover]

Lots of the above resonates with my experience. I dosed nitrates to drop my P, killed off my GHA and poof....dinos.

Blackouts and dino-cidal chemicals...
So you remove dinos. Great. What did you replace them with?
I think we need this as a slogan, to remove dinos you must first decide what to replace them with. We need something catchy in the form of a bumper sticker or kung fu proverb.
"In dinos, there is no remove. There is only replace." Hopefully someone else can do better.

Cyano is a no no. Dinos and cyano are BFFs and joined at the hip. It's not a candidate for replacing dinos.

Just throwing food in the tank does not automatically ensure you'll have elevated N and P. Quite often they are out of balance and one is elevated while the other is limiting factor for growth. Test and adjust.

It is not possible for me to test and adjust - Hanna and Nitrate readings always show 0. The dinos are taking them up too quickly to test and adjust. What should I throw in the tank to ensure I am achieving a balance in elevating both N and P appropriately to stimulate GHA? Is there an ideal food or amino acid? Btw - noticed a little bit of GHA growing on my powerhead today...how can I make it spread...hmmm

[jweist]

Here is what I did once I got my scrubber up and running. I took this advise directly from Floyd R Turbo on the algae scrubber site and I think he got it from Santa Monica originally. I only slightly deviate from this advise but all the main principles are followed. Many people have successfully used this method, some even more than once.
In my experience, it stays in the scrubber as long as you have surface skimming i.e. overflow in the display tank. There are many methods that are suggested to keep it under control, I know there are a few articles out there, here's a few from googling "dinoflagellates reef"

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...ons-i-learned/

Most involve raising the pH to 8.4 (especially at night - scrubber can help this) but that can be difficult to do, so at least keep your alk high enough to maintain proper pH and run your scrubber lights all night if you can.

Many solutions mention cutting back the DT lights (even a 3-day total blackout in extreme cases, but this doesn't solve the root problem), but SM told me to do the opposite and it actually worked. I think the idea is that if you provide the coral a lot of light, they will consume the nutrients and starve out the dinos. Of course you need a lot of photosynthetic corals for that to work I would think. But cutting the lights out completely will generally cause more die-off which then feeds the dinos, so I guess I hate to go against the recommendations of Randy Holmes-Farley, but it seemed to work for me, so it's up to you.

Cut feeding drastically in any case, only feed a small amount right before lights out is what I did, and every other day or every 3 days if your fish can take it.

Basically you're keeping the fish alive and letting the corals and CUC (and scrubber) drain the nutrients out of the tank and starving out the dinos.

Keep the scrubber running, if they're still wanting to grow, they'll grow there and that's where to want them - where you can control them.

If you have a place for filter floss, a sock, or a pad, put that there too to keep the dinos from recirculating in the system, or to catch them if they detach from the scrubber. I had tons of dinos in my UAS until it started growing green, but very little signs of detachment. In the top-of-tank waterfall scrubber, I had much more detachment, most of which snagged on a block of bio-balls that I had set up as a bubble-blocker. So do what you have to do to trap them.

Also I take a piece of airline tubing and siphon off the dinos out of the DT when I see them. They come back pretty quick so this is something you need to stay on top of on a daily basis. Using this method and pinching the airline hose when not sucking the dinos I was able to only empty out about 1/4-1/2 gallon in a 120g system, and I had dinos everywhere. Also get all the dinos off the top surface in low-flow areas (if you have them)

The hardest coral to keep happy was my ORA Green Birdsnest, you can drop those things on the ground and step on them and they'll survive but dinos take them out because they're 'snaggy' - they are a dino magnet.

[Billybatz9]

One thing I have noticed is that dinos don't like coraline algae. I think I am going to start raising calcium and magnesium to start increasing my coraline growth. They don't attach to coraline rocks.

As for the other dinos... Does dosing mb7, dr tims one and only, and etc... help promoto biodiversity? Or do we need biodiversity from live rocks?

[bertoni]

If you want to add fixed nitrogen and phosphate to the water column, sodium nitrate and some form of sodium phosphate should be fine, if you get a food-grade mixture. Sodium nitrate can be a bit hard to find, but I think it's possible.

[nvladik]

Dyno scrubber update day 3. Don't see a single spot on rock or sand anymore.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160316/ee9b36b5205ae67b77bd0958d1b74084.jpg

Guys what should I aim for Phosphates? Got Nitrates now for sure as I miss dosed! :)

[karimwassef]

It's important to have facts before asserting opinions:

I added an ATS many many months after I had used UV and been dino-free and clear.

So.. I tried many things. Each worked a little.. Then I tried UV and it was a C change. It won the battle for me. The war was won when the dinos were knocked off balance and then the other approaches started to show benefit.

Each attack achieved something different.

As far as phyto, enough of it stays alive long enough and competes with any "pathogenic" elements... Then it becomes food. That's the plan.

As far as export: ATS is, by far, the best mechanism for export and nutrient control. It kicks in after a powerful skimmer and a healthy open surface sandbed. They are not in opposition... They're allies. Each can deliver a unique export capability.

I have almost no rocks on my 3' x 8' x 3" sandbed. That's my bacteria and detritus cleanup zone.

The monster skimmer removes organics

The scrubber and chaeto removes inorganics.

[jweist]

It's important to have facts before asserting opinions:I added an ATS many many months after I had used UV and been dino-free and clear.Just going off of what you told me. "First UV, then wet skimming + carbon + new chaeto + new live rock + blackout + thousands of pods + phyto. Then I cranked up my feeding and installed an ATS..."

At the time you got rid of the dinos did you have any algae in your display tank?
Then I tried UV and it was a C change. It won the battle for me.
What do you mean by this?

As far as phyto, enough of it stays alive long enough and competes with any "pathogenic" elements... Then it becomes food. That's the plan. If it's dying it's not competing with dinos it's just providing N & P for the bottom of the food chain. Dinos would eat this up if something else wasn't gobbling up these nutrients first.

As far as export: ATS is, by far, the best mechanism for export and nutrient control. It kicks in after a powerful skimmer and a healthy open surface sandbed. They are not in opposition... They're allies. Each can deliver a unique export capability.
I'm aware that they have different export capabilities. We need to focus on the things a skimmer can't touch, N & P. So even though a skimmer can help maintain low nutrients it can not physically lower either N or P.
I have almost no rocks on my 3' x 8' x 3" sandbed. That's my bacteria and detritus cleanup zone. Bacteria grows everywhere.
The monster skimmer removes organics
The scrubber and chaeto removes inorganics.
Organics are food but not the kind of food dinos are using to grow... inorganics (N & P) are.

[karimwassef]

There was no algae in the tank from the point I used LaCl and had the dino bloom. At that time, I had a chaeto mass that was growing, but as soon as the dinos came in, the chaeto started to die. After the UV, my chaeto rebounded and started absorbing again. The sand (small particles host more bacteria), the skimmer and the chaeto were my exports. So I never had algae except on my front glass. I also had a dozen ravenous tangs that ate any hint of algae in the DT... Turning it into organic waste that was consumed or exported by the sand or skimmer.

Whatever they didn't grab fast enough, my chaeto captured as N and P. Then I installed my ATS. Now both are working, and I think the ATS is winning.

A C change means an immediate change into the opposite direction. I was losing the battle and the UV had an immediate effect that reversed the tide...

UV will not kill everything immediately. I have a 660gal system and I was circulating at 200gph through it... There's a lot of phyto that never saw my UV reactor, at least not for many hours. They were like kamikaze - they fought all night and then were eventually sacrificed and turned into food for the coral.

Dinos are like an alien alternative to the normal algae based food chain. Once they were stunned hard enough by UV, other normal life started to win. The critical difference here is in the dino's reaction to dark. Unlike hair algae or chaeto or pods, dinos will disseminate into the water column by dark to hunt. This mixotrophic behavior is exactly why UV kills them preferentially. There are spores and some pods that are zapped too, but the vast majority of them are benthic. They're not suspended free floaters in the water column.

So- if all your enemy behaves in a way that is uniquely different than all your friends- use it! Most of the good guys are safe. All the bad guys are nuked over the darkness hours. By morning, the dinos try to come back, but they can't breed fast enough to compete with a tank's worth of benthic competitors or a chaeto mass that now feeds on their dead waste to grow even bigger!

This is why feeding started to work... As did all the other methods. I made it an unfair fight by preferentially zapping the free floating dinos.

[karimwassef]

By the way, when I say thousands of pods... I mean it. I probably added close to 20,000 pods. At night, the rocks were nearly crawling with them. They were in everything. I'm sure the free floating babies were zapped but there were such large masses of pods that it was like a near inexhaustible source. As long as I fed phyto, they were all over.

I also added close to 200 glass shrimp. They're still in my tank, breeding.

I even got some massive pieces of live rock encrusted with huge rhodactis and sponges and life.

I created an explosion of life and diversity to compete constantly with the dinos while I was nuking them. I also expected that in the mix, there would be elements that would b predatory to the dinos.

[karimwassef]

http://youtu.be/q4XY7U4ddwo

[taricha]

Apologies for long post, but I want to give enough info so that other eyeballs can look at the data and maybe come to different conclusions, or catch something I've missed.
Short version: Dinos (90% amphidinium and a little coolia) and cyano simultaneously retreated to verge of disappearance over the course of 3 days in a tank with high NO3 (30ppm), high PO4 (0.50 ppm), high lighting (including 3 hours of sunlight), no UV or algaecides - in association with growing large amounts of macroalgae (chaeto and caulerpa) on the sandbed. Dosing trace elements and vitamins caused dinos/cyano to reverse and begin increasing again.

Original goal was to kill dinos by growing algae, or at least see if I could grow lots of algae and still be dino infested, because that would be interesting. And I didn't want to do blackouts because I'm trying to grow maximum algae and because I know dinos need light, I'd like to find out what else they need - that's more interesting. No UV, because I don't have one, and I found out my amphidinium don't leave the sand anyway.

So, dirty method+light+no skimming+trace elements: 5 times the food, only 2hrs light to the fuge (less nutrient uptake there - more for the DT), trace elements to boost algae growth and basically make sure nothing was nutrient limited. Green film algae, coraline on glass, bits of macros on rocks, cyano, and dinos all grew well - no GHA or diatoms.
Test kits however revealed that just dumping food in wasn't enough. PO4 was elevated 0.20, but NO3 was undetectable. So I began dosing KNO3 in addition to heavy feeding, a week or so later testing showed my NO3 was between 10-20ppm, but my PO4 had dropped to new lows for my tank 0.04.
So in addition to elevated feeding I began simultaneously dosing both N and P daily - KNO3 for N, and a high P miracle grow fertilizer 4-12-4 (N-P-K) derived from only ammonium phosphate, potassium phosphate and urea - no metals. I also had stopped trace elements, with the idea that I wanted to give everything N, P, and light in excess and have them fight it out for anything else they needed, hopefully find a trace element limitation.
At this point Feb 12, green film ruled the glass and dinos/cyano ruled the sand.
These pics are 1-2 weeks after I had siphoned everything.
https://goo.gl/photos/n4fLAy29SQSyxPqh7
https://goo.gl/photos/KKbHGZv3x2XryKLc9
https://goo.gl/photos/iRzDpv5y5K2t4QAZA

So I decided to move some algae in directly. I pulled two big hunks of Chaetomorpha and Caulerpa from the fuge onto the front and back trouble spots right on the sand bed.
Feb 12th
https://goo.gl/photos/CYnGvADZJk5yVqX38

I worked my way up to N and P dosing that looked like this
March 1 measured: NO3 10+, PO4 0.23
March 1,2,&3rd I added 10ppm NO3 and 0.20ppm PO4 every day
March 4th measured: NO3 15, PO4 0.21 so I kept dosing at those levels.

Chaeto and Caulerpa grew well, many many more pods, worms, and general critters took up residence in the sandbed. Dinos directly under the chaeto started to disappear. Maybe it was chemical competition, or predation from the critters living in the chaeto, or reduced light under chaeto, or a combination. Other than directly below chaeto, cyano and dinos continued to grow, even right next to the macros.
Feb 29
https://goo.gl/photos/9wtRn8pkMxQ9BZUh7
https://goo.gl/photos/yiAiUGL9uoHBmFkh6

I also tried to see if I could deplete trace elements by not feeding the fish for a 2 days, and just dosing N & P, and cranking fuge lights back up. No luck there. Cyano and Dinos still growing.

My miracle grow has a small amount of ammonia and urea (2% each) and there's some reason to believe ammonia might encourage cyano, so on March 5th I changed my P source to an industrial cleaner I got at the hardware store - Trisodium Phosphate (80% Trisodium phosphate dodecahydrate, 20% Sodium Sesquicarbonate). I continued dosing 10ppm NO3 and 0.20ppm PO4 daily.

I siphoned all dinos/cyano out again on March 7th, and it began growing back as usual in all the usual spots. After a few days, one of the halimeda started looking bad and died a few days later, the other halimeda sprigs stopped new growth, my skimmate had slowed down for the past few days, and the green film on the glass was very slow growing. I'm only connecting these observations to what happened next - after the fact.

For two days I didn't have time to look at the tank or dose N or P. Just throw in a pinch of food. Then, March 14thpm, I looked at the tank and saw gorgeous white sand. Dinos had disappeared, cyano was gone too from all the spots where it normally stayed. My monti cap that I had been 100% convinced was dead, extended its polyps for the first time since the end of January when Dinos first appeared in my tank. I figured that two days without dosing, my hungry tank must have eaten up the N or P and crashed the cyano/dino population. So I tested: NO3 between 30-50ppm, PO4 0.50ppm. I checked the numbers with multiple kits because I didn't believe it. No mistake - high N and P.
https://goo.gl/photos/Sg4W1mwizRPTEbif6
https://goo.gl/photos/LfcBY249h1pt636d8

Apparently a trace element shortage must have limited cyano/dino growth rate so the tons of benthic fauna was consuming it faster than the replacement rate.
Only one small spot of cyano/dino remained. I wanted to see if I could get it growing again by changing nothing except adding back trace elements, so I left everything else in place, kept all the macro with its predators on the sandbed, and put in a week's dose of a couple of trace element mixes:
Kent Iron and Manganese (http://www.marinedepot.com/Kent_Marine_Iron_Manganese_16_oz._Liquid_Magnesium_Iron_Supplements-Kent_Marine-KM3193-FIADMILS-vi.html): K2O,Fe,Mn,Mo,Zn,Co
Aqueon FW plant food (http://www.petsmart.com/fish/plant-food/aqueon-freshwater-aquarium-plant-food-zid36-17982/cat-36-catid-300050):K2O,Ca,Mg,S,B,Fe,Mn,Mo,Zn
and finally, for vitamins I added a days dose Kent Microvert (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=5001): I,Vit A,B12,B6,B1,C
I followed those doses up the next day with half of what I had added the day before.
Over the next 2 days, In some spots dinos/cyano returned. The last remaining brown sand patch stopped its rapid decline and slowly started to spread again. In other spots only cyano made a comeback. These are pics of 3/14,15pm and 3/16am
https://goo.gl/photos/hSj6x3VNQXwxWWNFA
https://goo.gl/photos/UqMRbfNxtCuVrKf59
https://goo.gl/photos/XwWYmf5rPuGBT8ih7

Other possible effects of trace element dosing: the halimeda started new green shoots, and finally after months, a couple of new tufts of GHA on rocks.

If I had to guess, I don't think the reversal is sustainable at this point. Even with continued trace element dosing, sand samples from all over the tank show way too many sanddwelling critters for dinos to reassert dominance.

If I had to guess which trace element is responsible, I'd lean towards Iron, as it has the most documented effects in limiting the growth of the things that seemed to decline over the past week. On the other hand, it has the most documented effects across the widest range of organisms because it's the most studied trace element. It could be any number of other things, there's nothing I've observed that excludes, for instance the Cobalt-B12-Cyano-Dino connection.

Correlation, causation and coincidence can be hard to tease apart, but here are key observations that (to me) point to trace element limitation and are consistent with Iron.

reduced skimmate production
reduced green film growth
halimeda slowdown/decline
then cyano/dino simultaneous decline
significant reduced uptake of N and P from water, though present in excess
caulerpa still grew daily (lower trace element threshold?)
adding trace elements reversed decline for cyano,dinos,halimeda
reversed effects of others: green film, skimmate, I can't say for sure.

[jweist]

At that time, I had a chaeto mass that was growing, but as soon as the dinos came in, the chaeto started to die. Couldn't this just mean you had too little nutrients in the water and then dinos were able to become the dominant species. Allowing any nutrients to be sucked up instantly by the dinos and because of this the chaeto had no food.
After the UV, my chaeto rebounded and started absorbing again. The sand (small particles host more bacteria), the skimmer and the chaeto were my exports. So I never had algae except on my front glass. I also had a dozen ravenous tangs that ate any hint of algae in the DT... Turning it into organic waste that was consumed or exported by the sand or skimmer.Sand is not an export mechanism unless it's over 4 inches deep and then it would only be a nitrate export filter. Sand just has more surface area so proportionally there is more in that area but bacteria grow on every surface. The UV idea has merit but it in its self is not a fix at all. I do think that if your dinos go into the water column at night (mine don't) this can be a helpful tool but is not the addressing the root of the problem. The problem is you have dinos dominating the bottom of the food chain. There needs to be competition in the same section of the food chain. Meaning that something besides dinos need to be there to out compete them for the excess inorganics. In your case you had chaeto... the problem though is that most people come to find that dinos are tougher than chaeto, especially in ultra low nutrient environments like yours after dosing LaCI.
A C change means an immediate change into the opposite direction. So does C stand for complete or carbon?

UV will not kill everything immediately. I have a 660gal system and I was circulating at 200gph through it... There's a lot of phyto that never saw my UV reactor, at least not for many hours. They were like kamikaze - they fought all night and then were eventually sacrificed and turned into food for the coral. What makes you assume your corals are the ones eating it? If something eats the phyto then they poop creating N & P. Any addition of food will break down into N & P eventually if it's not sucked out by mechanical filtration. It's about having other things in the tank besides the dinos competing for this food.
Dinos are like an alien alternative to the normal algae based food chain. No there not... they are in the same category as phyto, diatoms and algae. Just because they grow fast and can thrive under low nutrient conditions doesn't make them some alien species.
Once they were stunned hard enough by UV, other normal life started to win. The critical difference here is in the dino's reaction to dark. Unlike hair algae or chaeto or pods, dinos will disseminate into the water column by dark to hunt. This mixotrophic behavior is exactly why UV kills them preferentially. There are spores and some pods that are zapped too, but the vast majority of them are benthic. They're not suspended free floaters in the water column.
Like I said, I think a UV can has value but is not the not the cure itself. And if your dinos don't go into the water column then it useless at best and counterproductive a worst.

[DNA]

Apologies for long post,

Seeing white sandbed for a whole day is a wonderful feeling.

I've had enough Chetomorpha in the tank to fill two stuffed shopping bags, but it didn't have any impact.
A few times the thought has occurred to me to move it to the display, but looking at the dinos that migrate every night to the sump changed my mind.
Scientists working in the field have often mentioned the dinos hanging on to algae, but I've never witnessed that.

One could speculate the rise in Nitrates and Phosphates could be the effect rather than the cause of the dinos crashing and this instant signs of better tank health is something I've witnessed several times and reported in this thread.

You had some success here, but as usual it's difficult to explain and somehow, no matter what methods are used dinos will find a way to show up soon after.

[karimwassef]

Couldn't this just mean you had too little nutrients in the water and then dinos were able to become the dominant species. Allowing any nutrients to be sucked up instantly by the dinos and because of this the chaeto had no food.
Sand is not an export mechanism unless it's over 4 inches deep and then it would only be a nitrate export filter. Sand just has more surface area so proportionally there is more in that area but bacteria grow on every surface. The UV idea has merit but it in its self is not a fix at all. I do think that if your dinos go into the water column at night (mine don't) this can be a helpful tool but is not the addressing the root of the problem. The problem is you have dinos dominating the bottom of the food chain. There needs to be competition in the same section of the food chain. Meaning that something besides dinos need to be there to out compete them for the excess inorganics. In your case you had chaeto... the problem though is that most people come to find that dinos are tougher than chaeto, especially in ultra low nutrient environments like yours after dosing LaCI.
So does C stand for complete or carbon?
What makes you assume your corals are the ones eating it? If something eats the phyto then they poop creating N & P. Any addition of food will break down into N & P eventually if it's not sucked out by mechanical filtration. It's about having other things in the tank besides the dinos competing for this food.
No there not... they are in the same category as phyto, diatoms and algae. Just because they grow fast and can thrive under low nutrient conditions doesn't make them some alien species.
Like I said, I think a UV can has value but is not the not the cure itself. And if your dinos don't go into the water column then it useless at best and counterproductive a worst.

Chaeto died when dinos came in.
Others with ATS had the ATS die when dinos came in.
Dinos can thrive at lower nutrient levels that either. So, when the ATS cannot survive, it dies and the decomposition quickly feeds the dinos. That is simple enough. The cure, then, is to raise the level of nutrients to where the ATS or chaeto can begin to fight back by consuming the nutrients. Unfortunately, you could also just be feeding the dinos. In my case, the UV stopped that. The non-free floating algae started to feed and the dinos died.

Sand is key to the nitrogen cycle, ammonia-nitrite-nitrate-N2 gas... etc... I have a lot of sand in dedicated containers in my sump. Each is over 4" thick and they're stacked. It is a nitrogen machine... nitrogen escapes = export.

Sand is also in my sand bed. The detritus eaters consume animal waste that would become rank in the tank. Their waste is smaller and easier to extract with flow. That's where the skimmer picks it up... export again.

Hair algae is competition for dinos. Chaeto too. The trick is to raise the N and P level up to where those competitors have a fighting chance while knocking the dinos down.

C change = "sea change" = we have come to refer to a sea change as being a profound transformation caused by any agency
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-sea1.htm

Everything in my tank eats everything. My corals eat, my worms and pods eat, my phyto eats... who cares as long as I provide a source of food? If it serves a purpose beforehand, so much the better. I feed 4 leaves of Kale, 4 sheets of Nori, 2 raw shrimp, 2 cubes of mysis, 3 cubes of cyclopese, reef roids and reef chilli along with 60ml of phyto and 60ml of restor + selcon + garlic X... with NO algae and corals growing so fast I have to give them away.

Alien species is meant to explain that they're incompatible with the other food chain... that begins with normal algae. They are not algae.

If your dinos don't go into the water column, then the UV is ineffective. Mine did and UV was the most significant critical tool to getting rid of them.

[jweist]

Chetomorpha.....didn't have any impact.
I'm trying to come up with reasons why algae outcompetes dinos so well and why so much chaeto does nothing...
The first thing I'm thinking is that GHA prefers urea/ammonia much more than nitrate. I don't know the dinos uptake of ammonia compared to nitrate is but maybe the GHA can outcompete dinos because it gets the first grab.
The second thing is that the GHA might be putting chemicals in the water to hinder the growth of other species at the bottom of the food chain in order to keep themselves the dominant species in the system. These chemicals might work on the dinos too.
The last thing I can think of and I've said it before is that GHA grown on a scrubber screen maximizes the conditions for growing GHA. These conditions are not as favorable to the dinos and the algae wins.
I think it could be a combination of all these things and probably something else I can't think of right now too.
no matter what methods are used dinos will find a way to show up soon after.What makes you think this? I have no signs of dinos in my system.

[jweist]

Chaeto died when dinos came in.
Others with ATS had the ATS die when dinos came in. dinos dont kill GHA. maybe the dinos covered them up but it didn't kill it.
That is simple enough. The cure, then, is to raise the level of nutrients to where the ATS or chaeto can begin to fight back by consuming the nutrients. Unfortunately, you could also just be feeding the dinos. In my case, the UV stopped that. The non-free floating algae started to feed and the dinos died.So it was a helpful tool for you but by it's self not the reason for your success.
Sand is key to the nitrogen cycle, ammonia-nitrite-nitrate-N2 gas... etc... No bacteria is and sand helps keep high populations of it because of its large surface area.
Sand is also in my sand bed. The detritus eaters consume animal waste that would become rank in the tank. Their waste is smaller and easier to extract with flow. That's where the skimmer picks it up... export again.So your skimmer is a export mechanism not your sand bed.
The trick is to raise the N and P level up to where those competitors have a fighting chance while knocking the dinos down.Not necessarily true.
C change = "sea change" = we have come to refer to a sea change as being a profound transformation caused by any agency
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-sea1.htmWhen using the short hand C people are usually referring to carbon.

Everything in my tank eats everything. My corals eat, my worms and pods eat, my phyto eats... who cares as long as I provide a source of food?My point is that it eventually breaks down into N & P. This is food for dinos if there is nothing else to eat it.
...with NO algae and corals growing so fast I have to give them away.You just said you had algae, pick one. "non-free floating algae started to feed and the dinos died."
Alien species is meant to explain that they're incompatible with the other food chain... that begins with normal algae. They are not algae.The food chain is all about what eats what. Dinos eat N & P and so does GHA so they are in the same category.

[karimwassef]

You've convinced yourself and it really doesn't help other people. You focus on semantics when I think my point is clear to everyone else.

If it's important for you to feel that you're right, then you're not interested in helping others. That's a shame.

For example: Having algae in my ATS isn't the same having algae in my DT. I'm sure you understand this, but you decide to focus on this minutia that adds no value to others, just to jab at a clear and useful comment I made.

Another example: dinos starve algae or chaeto.. Killing them. Does it matter that they did it without attacking the algae? No. Again, minuscule focus on specific words instead of helping others...

One more: detritus eaters in the sand make the skimmer a better exporter... So what? I already said it's a cooperative effort. The Nitrogen export from denitrification is export, but you missed that. And while you know that bacteria lives in the sand, you find it important to point out that it's the bacteria, not the sand... Again, why does it matter? You focus on the words when everyone reading this thread knows that bacteria enables the N cycle and that bacteria lives in the sand. Who are you helping?

[karimwassef]

How does it feel knowing that you can cause massive suffering to others by dismissing a potent tool that didn't work for you? I hope your ego sleeps well at night. :)

[bertoni]

[flamealert]

Let's keep the discussion civil.

[DNA]

Scientists working in the field have often mentioned the dinos hanging on to algae, but I've never witnessed that.


I dug one of these reports up again and it said benthic, and by that I think they mean short turf like algae and that I have seen plenty of.

I've never seen dinos on my caulerpa, chaeato or other algae that does not stay close to the ground.

[joti26]

I dug one of these reports up again and it said benthic, and by that I think they mean short turf like algae and that I have seen plenty of.

I've never seen dinos on my caulerpa, chaeato or other algae that does not stay close to the ground.

The algae completely vanished from my tank and my cheato completely stopped growing and started falling apart. It was the main breeding ground for it as I discovered when I got the microscope. Dino's certainly seemed to cling to it and it actually looked like it was even inside it.

[bertoni]

A lot of the food will end up in the water column eventually, possibly as "output" from various animals. Some of that will be removed by the skimmer or incorporated into algae that's exported (if any algae trimming is done). The rest will become mineralized nutrients like nitrate and phosphate. The percentage will vary from tank to tank.

I'm not sure how much filtration the sandbed actually performs. That also will vary from system to system, but a number of people have removed sandbags and not noticed much difference in the water parameters. Likewise, Randy added a macro algae refugium and saw his sandbed seem to reduce its production of nitrogen or oxygen, or both.

[karimwassef]

Let's keep the discussion civil.

I apologize. My second post was not constructive.

[Billybatz9]

So what is the cure for dinoflagellates? :D

[Billybatz9]

I would like to start dosing nitrates as I feel this is what most people are doing to rid of the dinoflagellates. How do I do it? Where do I get a bottle of nitrate. Is it potassium nitrate?

[Jewilson83]

I would like to start dosing nitrates as I feel this is what most people are doing to rid of the dinoflagellates. How do I do it? Where do I get a bottle of nitrate. Is it potassium nitrate?


I use. Look it up. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160318/a946a7f7e7ce5182023a7a7c389a053a.jpg

[taricha]

I've had enough Chetomorpha in the tank to fill two stuffed shopping bags, but it didn't have any impact.
A few times the thought has occurred to me to move it to the display

From what I've seen with the macros in my tank - having looked through the microscope at the sandbed for hours before and after the macroalgae was dropped in. To say there's 10x more benthic fauna of 5x as many species as without the macro likely severely understates the case. And I was going "dirty method" before the macros went in.
side note: weeks ago when the dino outbreak was young, I coudn't find any dino predators in the tank or the fuge, or skimmer or algae sandbed I cultured. Now, everywhere I look, every sample has a handful of different organisms eating dinos.
And the locations of dinos/cyano retreat and reappearance says that proximity to algae is a strong factor.

One could speculate the rise in Nitrates and Phosphates could be the effect rather than the cause of the dinos crashing and this instant signs of better tank health is something I've witnessed several times and reported in this thread.

Possible, but it seems really unlikely.
My tank had been holding steady at pre-dose numbers of 10+ NO3 and 0.20+ PO4 - last test on 3/4, with daily doses of 10ppm NO3 and 0.20ppm PO4. I continued this dosing along with feeding every day. I dosed and fed up to and including Friday 3/11,
Here's what my a section of my sandbed looked like on 3/11
https://goo.gl/photos/SgBdove54yMfqApT9
Light brown amphidinium/cyano dusting in the sand. Not mass globs of snot that would nuke a tank in die-off.

on Sat 3/12 and Sun 3/13 I didn't dose. I only had time to throw in 1-2 cubes of food and a couple of pinches of flake both days.
Then Mon 3/14 my sand is clean and my NO3 is 30, and my PO4 tests 0.50.

To put 0.50 PO4 in scale, my system is 245Liters (65 gal) so that's 122mg of PO4 or 40mg of P, which is the equivalent of 50g (dry weight) Caulerpa (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/chemistry) or 890grams (2.0 pounds!) wet weight. I promise I didn't have a half a pound or a pound or two pounds of caulerpa - or anything else - die in my tank without my noticing.

It seems incredibly unlikely that I added 10 NO3 and 0.20 PO4 doses every day up through Friday, and then over Saturday & Sunday while getting a couple of cubes and several pinches of flakes my tank crashed N or P to zero so violently, it killed off something on the scale of a pound or two of living stuff and broke it down back into N and P in the water column by Mon.

It seems much more plausible, in my opinion, that in some tanks when algae/whatever "outcompetes" dinos into reduction - or more likely, reduction by slowing their growth below predation rate, it might be outcompeting dinos for elements other than N and P. Especially since a lot of the tanks in question are by their own admission trying to keep a "dirty" - high N and P - state.

Maybe we get fixated on N and P because that's what we can measure and control. (just look at my routine for example) There's a fairly common fallacy in science that probably has a name - "whatever I can measure must be the most important factor." But I think it's possible we might be missing that the real action shaping the composition of the algal community is trace elements - at least under "dirty method" conditions.

Like RHF said a short while back - 800 posts ago (!)

...I'm not sure that all of the successful treatments (or nontreatments) don't simply work because they take away something important to the particular species of dinos that you have.
People should remember that dinos, like algae and most photosynthetic pests need ALL of a source of N, P, Fe, many other trace metals, light, space to grow on, etc.
Take away any ONE of them and the dinos will be gone.
The trick is to find which of those is easiest to reduce while still permitting an adequate amount for other tank inhabitants (since they too need ALL of these).
Keeping a dirty tank and finding the dinos decline may simply mean high levels of bacteria that are present are out competing the dinos for some trace element.

[jweist]

Didn't mean to hurt you feelings and I am here to help, whether you agree with me or not is another story. I feel like I have lots of useful experience dealing with and eliminating dinos. I thought we were having a conversation not a heated argument... guess not.

I also think that the things I mention have value to the conversation. For example if dinos flat out kill algae then my idea would be useless but they don't.

My point about sand beds is not directly related to dinos but I was trying to make the point that people have BB tanks and have healthy systems... also a sand bed is probably not that big of a factor when it comes to eliminating dinos.

Also in my opinion there is little difference between algae on a screen vs in the DT except for the nutrient uptake is much higher on a properly set up ATS. I was asking if you had any algae growing anywhere in the tank (screen, glass, rock, powerhead etc.) at the time you eliminated the dinos.

I'm also open minded to all theories and if there is sufficient evidence I would be more than happy to switch any of my views. I have first hand experience also... I'm not just reading a book and regurgitating the information.

The UV is fine, it can be a good tool. The idea behind UV is to knock back dinos while giving way to other competition. This could also be done in other ways, maybe even better ways, like for instance sucking them out with air line tube. That would export dinos while ensuring no die off. This however is not addressing the root of the problem. If competition never increases dinos will still live. So there needs to be some way to do this. Either with chaeto if it works, increasing nutrients to allow GHA in the DT, or adding an algae scrubber to be able to grow algae in a low nutrient environment.

[karimwassef]

My reaction was to the nitpicking on semantics when the point was clear.

I agree that we need competition and algae is the best competition.

I don't agree that it works without first creating an opportunity for the algae to take "root". To be clear- this is figurative language, not intended for a deep dive into the attachment mechanisms of algae.

Manual dino removal has not been effective in knocking them back based on the responses in this thread. Again- figurative language. This isn't a description of physical force acting on dinos.

Slow UV + dark + skimmer export has been effective in knocking them back.

I am an advocate of ATS. I am an advocate of UV. I think either alone is insufficient for a long term "cure". Please no debate on the term "cure".

IME, kicking them back and giving ATS or chaeto or phyto a leg up (these creatures don't have legs- to be clear) is the key.

[koral_lover]

Just an update for me:

Been feeding heavy for 5 days now, skimmer has also been turned off.

The Bad:
-Dinos have proliferated, about double the amount
-Red Dragon RTN'd
-Small Ich outbreak on one of my clowns

The Good:
-I actually see a few specks of coraline growth starting on my dirty dino covered powerheads and overflow. Tank has been up 8 months and have had zero coraline growth this whole time. I suppose coraline is an algae, so it makes sense there was a lack of growth when my nutrients were probably too low this whole time. Finally pleased to see coraline grow...
-A small amount of GHA is now growing in my refugium, next to my chaeto - although cheato growth is stagnant...can't get it to grow still...
-Tank glass finally has a haze again to it - hopefully I am getting some phosphates - although the haze is whitish/cloud like, not the typical green or brown dusting...but its something...don't think I've had to clean my glass in weeks, will leave it be for now, as it sounds like anything could help out compete the dinos at this point.

Phosphate and Nitrate still reading 0.

My theory surrounds dinos thriving when there is an imbalance between phosphate and nitrate. This tank was plagued with pale sps corals, so I began dosing nitrate, I got them up to 5 ppm, but then noticed the glass was spotless and never needing cleaning, hence my phosphates likely dove down severely - the next day dinos began.

This dirty approach has been hard to watch my tank go through, but I think its necessary. There is no question that the clean approach can be equally harmful to my tank inhabitants, because stability goes out the window some. If I can keep my fish alive and corals from dying back further, I will be happy. I just have this feeling I need to keep feeding to get through the ugly stage to come out on top.

My first tank 10 years ago was the most successful. The one difference I have noticed with it compared to all the rest, was that the tank had a hard, hard, hard, cycle - it got very ugly, algae blooms everywhere, back to back, etc. My last 3 tanks have never had such hard cycles. It almost seems perhaps the dinos have appeared because I never fully cycled this tank. I can't even get a nitrate reading for crying out loud. My first tank, which was most successful, always had nitrate readings that I was trying to drive down.

just sharing some random thoughts - It helps me to write things down as I feel like I am in some dino therapy of some sort.

[karimwassef]

Have you used UV at all?

Another question - who here uses metal halides and has dinos that do not dissociate into the water column at night?

[nvladik]

Slow UV + dark + skimmer export has been effective in knocking them back.

Would anyone else be interested at attempting to knock dynos back with screen/scrubber as I mentioned in a few posts? It's by no means a cure, an I am doing what's suggested in this thread for a permanent removal, but in my observation it's working to at lease control the population.

Last night, as of day 4, I observed no dynos at all on rock and sandbed, and much less dynos on the screen then prior days. My estimate is that 3/4 to 90% of dynos are gone. Best part, I still have 400 watts of lights over the tank, no dark period required at all.

If anyone's interested, please let me know I can send you some screen, I have a 50ft roll of it. I didn't see responses to my updates, so I didn't post yesterday as I figured no one was interested.

[karimwassef]

Would anyone else be interested at attempting to knock dynos back with screen/scrubber as I mentioned in a few posts? It's by no means a cure, an I am doing what's suggested in this thread for a permanent removal, but in my observation it's working to at lease control the population.

Last night, as of day 4, I observed no dynos at all on rock and sandbed, and much less dynos on the screen then prior days. My estimate is that 3/4 to 90% of dynos are gone. Best part, I still have 400 watts of lights over the tank, no dark period required at all.

If anyone's interested, please let me know I can send you some screen, I have a 50ft roll of it. I didn't see responses to my updates, so I didn't post yesterday as I figured no one was interested.

I don't have any but I think any effective dino export mechanism should be evaluated. There was an attempt a few pages ago with a lot section with a lights out system but it didn't work.

If you use their behavior to capture and export them preferentially, then it should work. They multiply so quickly and absorb nutrients so fast that it's hard to just compete.

[nvladik]

Pic from day five, they are still here for sure but numbers keep on going down.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160318/f9f54f8d6d889c5691fbbafe8f3feca4.jpg

[taricha]

Very cool find. What is the net material? Link?
I wonder if it's the unoccupied territory that causes them to prefer it (would they do the same to a dish of new sand?) Or if it's the massive flow they react to.
Is the screen heavily lit?

Have you an ID for your dinos? If not, get them under a scope.

[taricha]

who here uses metal halides and has dinos that do not dissociate into the water column at night?

No MH, but I could put MH on my tank and my amphidinium still wouldn't leave the sand. It's just not their thing apparently.

Just an update for me:

Been feeding heavy for 5 days now, skimmer has also been turned off.

-A small amount of GHA is now growing in my refugium, next to my chaeto - although cheato growth is stagnant...can't get it to grow still...
-Tank glass finally has a haze again to it - hopefully I am getting some phosphates - although the haze is whitish/cloud like, not the typical green or brown dusting...but its something...don't think I've had to clean my glass in weeks, will leave it be for now, as it sounds like anything could help out compete the dinos at this point.

Phosphate and Nitrate still reading 0.


I was dumping in 5x the normal amount of food and exported literally NOTHING for over a month and still had unmeasureably low ("zero") nitrates. My fish were just watching food hit the sand.

My theory surrounds dinos thriving when there is an imbalance between phosphate and nitrate. This tank was plagued with pale sps corals, so I began dosing nitrate, I got them up to 5 ppm, but then noticed the glass was spotless and never needing cleaning, hence my phosphates likely dove down severely - the next day dinos began.

Common theme, I always had somewhat elevated PO4, and "zero" nitrates, so I started dosing N: P dropped, GHA disappeared, and dinos moved in.
By the way, what's your test kit, and what's the lowest detectable limits on it?
because "zero" isn't zero, it's just below the lowest detectable limit.
For instance "0" on my Read Sea Nitrate kit just means significantly less than 2ppm.

[nvladik]

Very cool find. What is the net material? Link?
I wonder if it's the unoccupied territory that causes them to prefer it (would they do the same to a dish of new sand?) Or if it's the massive flow they react to.
Is the screen heavily lit?

Have you an ID for your dinos? If not, get them under a scope.

I don't have a name or a link for it, it came with a bunch of pond equipment I picked up a while ago. But I think any tightly packed surface will do - the more surface ares for the dynos the better. It is very well lit, and it is right across from the powerhead, so there's plenty of flow (500 gallons per hour).

I came up with this idea after an observation. I have a purple tang, and added a yellow tang (few months back). Purple went nuts and started killing the poor guy, so I built an eggcrate wall to separate the tank in half. Within 10 minutes dynos were attaching to the eggcrate. Next morning, eggcrate wasn't white color anymore. So the idea was repeat that, but tot be able to take it out daily and wash it - repopulate dynos into the sewer system.

[nvladik]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160319/28abb8beab2884130550558681b3e12c.jpg
Location - powerheads are on the back wall. one is pointed right at it.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160319/4e4528c4cc7bed5e29ed428921958e0c.jpg
Mesh is pretty clean in the morning, I will try and take a picture in he afternoon.

[DNA]

Originally posted by taricha

From what I've seen with the macros in my tank - having looked through the microscope at the sandbed for hours before and after the macroalgae was dropped in. To say there's 10x more benthic fauna of 5x as many species as without the macro likely severely understates the case. And I was going "dirty method" before the macros went in.
side note: weeks ago when the dino outbreak was young, I coudn't find any dino predators in the tank or the fuge, or skimmer or algae sandbed I cultured. Now, everywhere I look, every sample has a handful of different organisms eating dinos.
And the locations of dinos/cyano retreat and reappearance says that proximity to algae is a strong factor.

Quote:
One could speculate the rise in Nitrates and Phosphates could be the effect rather than the cause of the dinos crashing and this instant signs of better tank health is something I've witnessed several times and reported in this thread.
Possible, but it seems really unlikely.
My tank had been holding steady at pre-dose numbers of 10+ NO3 and 0.20+ PO4 - last test on 3/4, with daily doses of 10ppm NO3 and 0.20ppm PO4. I continued this dosing along with feeding every day. I dosed and fed up to and including Friday 3/11,
Here's what my a section of my sandbed looked like on 3/11
https://goo.gl/photos/SgBdove54yMfqApT9
Light brown amphidinium/cyano dusting in the sand. Not mass globs of snot that would nuke a tank in die-off.

on Sat 3/12 and Sun 3/13 I didn't dose. I only had time to throw in 1-2 cubes of food and a couple of pinches of flake both days.
Then Mon 3/14 my sand is clean and my NO3 is 30, and my PO4 tests 0.50.

To put 0.50 PO4 in scale, my system is 245Liters (65 gal) so that's 122mg of PO4 or 40mg of P, which is the equivalent of 50g (dry weight) Caulerpa or 890grams (2.0 pounds!) wet weight. I promise I didn't have a half a pound or a pound or two pounds of caulerpa - or anything else - die in my tank without my noticing.

It seems incredibly unlikely that I added 10 NO3 and 0.20 PO4 doses every day up through Friday, and then over Saturday & Sunday while getting a couple of cubes and several pinches of flakes my tank crashed N or P to zero so violently, it killed off something on the scale of a pound or two of living stuff and broke it down back into N and P in the water column by Mon.

It seems much more plausible, in my opinion, that in some tanks when algae/whatever "outcompetes" dinos into reduction - or more likely, reduction by slowing their growth below predation rate, it might be outcompeting dinos for elements other than N and P. Especially since a lot of the tanks in question are by their own admission trying to keep a "dirty" - high N and P - state.

Maybe we get fixated on N and P because that's what we can measure and control. (just look at my routine for example) There's a fairly common fallacy in science that probably has a name - "whatever I can measure must be the most important factor." But I think it's possible we might be missing that the real action shaping the composition of the algal community is trace elements - at least under "dirty method" conditions.

Like RHF said a short while back - 800 posts ago (!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley View Post
...I'm not sure that all of the successful treatments (or nontreatments) don't simply work because they take away something important to the particular species of dinos that you have.
People should remember that dinos, like algae and most photosynthetic pests need ALL of a source of N, P, Fe, many other trace metals, light, space to grow on, etc.
Take away any ONE of them and the dinos will be gone.
The trick is to find which of those is easiest to reduce while still permitting an adequate amount for other tank inhabitants (since they too need ALL of these).
Keeping a dirty tank and finding the dinos decline may simply mean high levels of bacteria that are present are out competing the dinos for some trace element.

------------------------------------------------------------

Before I realized my tanks problem I just noticed it to have mad mood swings that I didn't understand.
At that time I was just considered with keeping stability, but still drastic changes took place.
What I'm saying is that we don't need to make an effort to have the tank behaving oddly.

The problem with dinos is that they don't seem to have a weakness.
We have been able to figure out some of their characteristics, but playing with Randy's list of basic needs has not revealed the magic bullet.
In my case with the Ostis adding live rock and corals has produced the best results in tank health so I predict when that day comes, nature will provide the solution rather than chemistry.
Chemicals that are supposed to eradicate something to provide a quick fix or mishaps with similar results seem to be the leading cause to let the dinos in so here we have both a reason and a cure.
e.g. Eradicate herbivores from a reef and the algae with smother the corals then the rest of the life on it goes south as well.

[sinful]

Somewhat of an update for my dinos. I added an empower aquatics 18w UV on my 57g tank and have it running slow flow. It's been online for about a week and running 24/7. I can say I don't really see much of a difference thus far. I thought it might be helping a little, but it has went back full swing and by 5pm my sand looks terrible and filled with Dino.

On a side note, the Dino seemed to erupt when I put a sheet of Julian sprungs "Sea veggies" in the tank. Anyone think this could be fueling Dino? Anyone else use this and notice increase in dinos when fed?

[karimwassef]

How slow is the flow? Are the dinos invisible at night? Is your skimmer export increasing?

[DNA]

I just spent some time on google looking at images of dino infested tanks looking for similarities.
What stood out and most seem to have in common is that they are sparsely populated with corals.

That led me to think about the natural chemical warfare in reef ecosystems.
A local friend has ostis, but his tank has always looked better than mine and he's got much more coral density than I have had since dinos showed up.
I had a hard time finding the dinos, but they were there. Then he built a connected frag tank and it got covered, in the empty tanks, with dinos right away.

I'm no expert in this field, but I can guess that corals constantly give off slime to defend the local territory and it's destined to spread around the tank.
Some species are more toxic than other, but they are used by corals for defense and to gain ground.

I could speculate that the toxins that are quite complex molecules don't do well in the pumps and filters so there is less effect from the coral toxins while the dinos pass due to the small and durable build.

A dangerous experiment could include an irritated green-slimer or a palythoa, but I have neither.

You see were I'm going with this....

[Billybatz9]

Would anyone else be interested at attempting to knock dynos back with screen/scrubber as I mentioned in a few posts? It's by no means a cure, an I am doing what's suggested in this thread for a permanent removal, but in my observation it's working to at lease control the population.

Last night, as of day 4, I observed no dynos at all on rock and sandbed, and much less dynos on the screen then prior days. My estimate is that 3/4 to 90% of dynos are gone. Best part, I still have 400 watts of lights over the tank, no dark period required at all.

If anyone's interested, please let me know I can send you some screen, I have a 50ft roll of it. I didn't see responses to my updates, so I didn't post yesterday as I figured no one was interested.

Sounds like you are on to something. WHat kind of screen do you use?

[sinful]

How slow is the flow? Are the dinos invisible at night? Is your skimmer export increasing?

I can take a video tonight of the flow, but I'd say it's pretty slow. Yea, dinos completely disappear at night and my sand is spotless. Skimmer wise I could say yes it probably has increased a bit. Without any other changes, it is definitely skimming much wetter than previously too.

The algae food sheet could have nothing to do with it, but they did seem to explode once I added it.

[karimwassef]

I just spent some time on google looking at images of dino infested tanks looking for similarities.
What stood out and most seem to have in common is that they are sparsely populated with corals.

That led me to think about the natural chemical warfare in reef ecosystems.
A local friend has ostis, but his tank has always looked better than mine and he's got much more coral density than I have had since dinos showed up.
I had a hard time finding the dinos, but they were there. Then he built a connected frag tank and it got covered, in the empty tanks, with dinos right away.

I'm no expert in this field, but I can guess that corals constantly give off slime to defend the local territory and it's destined to spread around the tank.
Some species are more toxic than other, but they are used by corals for defense and to gain ground.

I could speculate that the toxins that are quite complex molecules don't do well in the pumps and filters so there is less effect from the coral toxins while the dinos pass due to the small and durable build.

A dangerous experiment could include an irritated green-slimer or a palythoa, but I have neither.

You see were I'm going with this....

Interesting observation!! I went through this line of thinking when I was first setting up my tank and got the massive explosion of green hair algae. The very large surface area available for population + intense lighting + availability of nutrients meant that something was going to make use of the unpopulated space.

My desire was to have a coralline covered rockscape. Having a large surface of photosynthetic organisms that consume nutrient is the end goal. It helps pH, keeps the water clean, and establishes the base of the food chain. Unfortunately, while I could see the end state, I couldn't see the path to it. It was like the chicken and the egg. Having a well stocked healthy aquarium created the conditions needed for a well stocked healthy aquarium...

My reaction in using LaCl to kill off the green hair removed all the phosphate, even below what coralline could consume... And the dinos moved in.

When I got my massive rhodactis rocks, I could see them create a zone of death all around them. Partly, this was because they could inflate 10x during the day to cover any exposed rockscape. I could also see the day pH improve a little.

Life definitely created an environment that was more conducive to its own success. I don't know if it's mucus or bacteria but it's war and the more allies you have, the better.

It's like anything else in life... Success breeds success...

I think this is why external chaeto and ATS are so important, they bias the chemistry towards a healthy normal state.

I would say that I strongly agree that a sparsely populated tank is at a higher risk of invasion.

[taricha]

Before I realized my tanks problem I just noticed it to have mad mood swings that I didn't understand.
At that time I was just considered with keeping stability, but still drastic changes took place.
What I'm saying is that we don't need to make an effort to have the tank behaving oddly.

You are quite right. And just in case I needed a 2x4 to the head to reinforce the point that a system that looks stable and well understood may actually be on the verge of (or undergoing) large unexpected changes, today I saw a strand of my caulerpa prepping to go sexual. I probably have a greater mass of caulerpa than I do living coral tissue. That would be a massive reshaping of tank chemistry.

The problem with dinos is that they don't seem to have a weakness.
We have been able to figure out some of their characteristics, but playing with Randy's list of basic needs has not revealed the magic bullet.
I agree and disagree. "dinos" as a whole - monolithic group - have no weakness like you say. Some stay in the water, some never leave the sand, some can survive in no light, some need massive light, some only hunt prey when kept in extended total darkness, others hunt even when blasted with light. Some are nearly 100 microns, some less than 5. Some are massively toxic, others quite yummy to most everything. And their traits/behaviors also point to likely large nutritional/element requirement differences.
But I think within a certain species, there are profound weaknesses - except ostis of course: those are immortal ;) - which is why your repeated refrain...
Name your Dinos
...is so crucial.
additionally most of the vehement disagreements in this thread about what "dinos" DO and DON'T DO and what treatments are effective and which are useless can be traced to the same source. Massive variance among "Dinos"


On a side note, the Dino seemed to erupt when I put a sheet of Julian sprungs "Sea veggies" in the tank. Anyone think this could be fueling Dino? Anyone else use this and notice increase in dinos when fed?

which "flavor" do you have, green, red, purple, mix? They are different algae species. But all of them I think are likely strong sources of metals/vitamins, which could be very important in some tanks.
Also what's the time line of dino response to the seaweed? next day I'm assuming?
I wonder if you'd get a similar response by dosing an Iron/trace element mix.

[Dfee]

Dino sample on way to Taricha. Thanks again.

I had trouble retrieving and scraping off glass so I wiped all the glass with a piece of towel and wrung it into the sample jar. Did that 4-5 times then put the piece of towel in jar too. Hope it works.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160319/2c6b27755c70796612e84af166f68d8a.jpg

[asharerin]

Got rid of mine dosing H202 3% 1 ml per 10 gallon at night for 2 weeks. Dinos gone after 10 days, gave it an extra 5 days to be sure. 4 months later still dino free. The tank water was thick dino soup for a while there but H202 knocked them out.

My dino outbreak started after I removed a massive amount of green hair algae after neglecting the tank for 6 months due to working crazy hours on a business project. I am guessing this threw something out of balance and they took the opportunity to grow like mad.

[taricha]

Dino sample on way to Taricha. Thanks again.

I had trouble retrieving and scraping off glass so I wiped all the glass with a piece of towel and wrung it into the sample jar. Did that 4-5 times then put the piece of towel in jar too.


Can't wait. I'll get pics up soon as I get them. Been figuring out how to grow Dinos in a beaker. Managed to grow brown Dino sand in a little beaker from a couple of infested pebbles, so hopefully it'll work on yours too, and I can grow enough to experiment on.

[robertifly]

Nvladik, I think that's pretty cool, I mean anything that exports this stuff has to be helping right? BTW, several people have mentioned using air line and a hard air tube as a way to remove dino from the sand bed which seems fairly minuscule to me, not to mention "labor intense" but today I ran in a Petco to look for some hard tube. Well they didn't have any but I did purchase a small gravel vacuum that came with a priming bulb and not least important it had a bucket clip to hold the hose! This got me to thinking I clipped the hose clip so it holds the discharge right into the screen sock on my drain to sump, I vacuum all the sand bed clean, got the big nasty in the sock, return pump kept right up and circulation never stopped. Now if I can just figure how to attach a small brush to the vacuum tube to clean the rocks of dino clusters while I vacuum them out, I can make some real export headway. Still fighting dino!

[koral_lover]

Question to the dino experts...been trying the dirty method for a week now...I want to get a little ahead of the dinos so going 72 hour black out...I've done this before and it knocked them back to basically nothing, but they came back...

Question 1: Do I cut the refugium lights too during the 72 hour black out? Or leave them on? I have cheato, GHA, and dinos growing in the fuge....

Question 2: Do I keep feeding heavy during the next 72 hours as well?

I am also turning back on my 2 part dosers...my sps are so far gone at this point, I just want the dinos gone, so trying to raise my ph some...probably won't push alk any higher than 10 though. Worth a shot I suppose...seems multiple approaches are required. Not sure I want to invest in a UV yet...

Thanks.

[karimwassef]

I'm no expert- I am a survivor!
I would say you need to keep your allies growing.
The concern with leaving lights on is that the dinos can overwhelm and kill the chaeto and ATS. In theory, if the only light is on the ATS and the flow there is fast and has a large air/water interface (the way a properly designed ATS should), then dinos should have s hard time holding on.

So I would continue dosing to keeping Alk, ca, mg up + feed the ATS and keep lights there on.

And get a UV :D

[nvladik]

Sounds like you are on to something. WHat kind of screen do you use?

The screen I use is pond netting, but I think any tightly packed surface will work. As I mentioned in one of the previous posts - even egg crate. But the more surface area the better.

Nvladik, I think that's pretty cool, I mean anything that exports this stuff has to be helping right? BTW, several people have mentioned using air line and a hard air tube as a way to remove dino from the sand bed which seems fairly minuscule to me, not to mention "labor intense" but today I ran in a Petco to look for some hard tube. Well they didn't have any but I did purchase a small gravel vacuum that came with a priming bulb and not least important it had a bucket clip to hold the hose! This got me to thinking I clipped the hose clip so it holds the discharge right into the screen sock on my drain to sump, I vacuum all the sand bed clean, got the big nasty in the sock, return pump kept right up and circulation never stopped. Now if I can just figure how to attach a small brush to the vacuum tube to clean the rocks of dino clusters while I vacuum them out, I can make some real export headway. Still fighting dino!

I agree, anything to get them out, and then fight what's left. My going theory, if I am going to fight a war, I'd rather do it when I thin the herd.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Question for guys who've done it: My Nitrates are at 25ppm. My phosphates are still undetectable, Salifert test for both. I am dosing Aquavitro Activate daily at this point. 5ml per 180g increases Phosphate by .15mg/l (or .15ppm?). I am estimating my water volume of 120g, and aiming for consistent phosphate level of .01 - 0.02 ppm, so I should be dosing .3ml. I am dosing .6ml, and I still can't get a phosphate reading. At first I thought test kit might not pick up inorganic phosphate, so I added a drop to test tube and it turned blue instantly. Do I continue daily dose? Is it the corals eating it up? Thanks guys!

[taricha]

Question for guys who've done it: My Nitrates are at 25ppm. My phosphates are still undetectable, Salifert test for both. I am dosing Aquavitro Activate daily at this point. 5ml per 180g increases Phosphate by .15mg/l (or .15ppm?). I am estimating my water volume of 120g, and aiming for consistent phosphate level of .01 - 0.02 ppm, so I should be dosing .3ml. I am dosing .6ml, and I still can't get a phosphate reading. At first I thought test kit might not pick up inorganic phosphate, so I added a drop to test tube and it turned blue instantly. Do I continue daily dose? Is it the corals eating it up? Thanks guys!

K. First, even Hannah Ultra low has an uncertainty of in the ballpark of .012 so I don't know that your target is consistently measurable.
But that's likely not what's going on...
If you have plenty of available N and normal conditions, light, etc then small amounts of P will be gobbled up quickly.
In my tank I threw a bunch of food in, and exported nothing for weeks and watched P go up while N stayed undetectable. So I dosed N plus food, then of course P went to undetectable.
It took heavy feeding + large doses of N & P to get detectable levels of both.

So what you're seeing is not that strange.
All systems are different. So my results may not follow in your tank.

[nvladik]

K. First, even Hannah Ultra low has an uncertainty of in the ballpark of .012 so I don't know that your target is consistently measurable.
But that's likely not what's going on...
If you have plenty of available N and normal conditions, light, etc then small amounts of P will be gobbled up quickly.
In my tank I threw a bunch of food in, and exported nothing for weeks and watched P go up while N stayed undetectable. So I dosed N plus food, then of course P went to undetectable.
It took heavy feeding + large doses of N & P to get detectable levels of both.

So what you're seeing is not that strange.
All systems are different. So my results may not follow in your tank.

Cool, thanks Taricha, glad to hear I am not crazy!

[Billybatz9]

So I have had dinos for a while and my 3 astrea snails. I thought this stuff killed them. Should I try maybe getting 50 of them and see if they eat them.

[bertoni]

It's possible that the snails will eat dinoflagellates, but I'm skeptical. Most (but not all) people have very little luck with that approach.

[Dfee]

Plus we know little about what makes them turn toxic. I've had a bunch of stuff like snails die. Other times, no deaths. So I dunno.

[Dfee]

But I'll also add that I think conches are a better choice to clean a sandbed. ... Unless you're talking about walls and glass.

[sinful]

Sand is looking much better today after not adding the algae sheet for the tang. I'm almost convinced the sea veggies is feeding the dino.

I would love to know how many people have a dino problem and currently use Julian sprung sea veggies?

[taricha]

Wanted to bring this line of thought back up...
at this point, DinoX may do nothing more than select for dinoflagellates that are immune to DinoX. ...

But all that having been said, the combination of UV + H2O2 was played with in 2013 and '14 and abandoned, perhaps because it wasn't yet apparent that when you knock your dinos back, you have to follow through to keep them down -- nobody has tried UV + DinoX that I'm aware of, so who knows?

and also another comment from this thread that I can't find. Someone said that they had some dinos, ran UV and it did nothing, then later they looked at the microscope to find that the species of dinos had changed.

Revisiting this in the light of what I found in a beaker a couple of days ago that I was using to grow out some dinos from my sand bed. It grew a nice healthy brown sand population of a different species of amphidinium (epicone curved to the side - very distinctive) than the one that is predominant in my tank.

So thinking back on it, my dino species count from my tank is 5:

one weird one I got a picture of long before I had an infestation, that I now recognize as a prorocentrum
amphidinium that started my infestation
coolia that infested the back of the tank while the amphidinium were in the front of the tank (they've since mixed all over)
a sample of brown slime from the top of a long-dead sps frag contained a few sesame seed shaped ostreopsis whirling around their pointed end (never seen them before or since.)
my beaker that grew a healthy infestation of a different amphidinium species.


The last 4 all co-occured during a single infestation event. I seriously doubt my tank is all that special. It's not like I scooped up sand samples from 10 different coasts and poured them in my tank. I would be shocked if most plagued tanks don't have at least a couple of different species active at the same time. Do dinos create a more favorable environment for other species of dinos? maybe. Maybe it's just a side effect of them clearing the ecological niche for themselves.
Furthermore, I'd bet there are a ton of different treatments that I could do on my tank that might have decimated the populations of 1 or 2 or 3 of out of the 4 confirmed species I've found in my tank in the current battle. And I would report that the attempted treatment either did nothing, did very little, or possibly seemed to get rid of 99% of the dinos, but "the dinos came back", when in reality I was killing some species and others were growing to replace.

On the other hand, Pants says most dinos people sent him were either Ostreopsis, amphidinium or prorocentrum - so maybe my tank is just weirdly diverse.

[robertifly]

Sinful, this is something that I have raised question to also I never had Dino until I starting using the Two Little Fishies "Bulk Green Seaweed" and "Bulk Red Seaweed" I am suspicious of it being the intro to my tank. Wonder how many others can say the same thing?

[bertoni]

Any food source can encourage microbial blooms. Algae products definitely can do that.

[pdiehm]

Update:

I'm more convinced that I had calothrix (I think that's the spelling) than dino's. Not saying that I didn't have some dinoflagellates, because at one point, I know I had them in my refugium.

I skimmed wet, I ran my carbon, and I shut the lights off for about 10 days, with the exception of a 90-120 minute window to feed my anemone and the fish. Would cover my tank with towels, and dose 12ml peroxide in the morning, and 12 ml in the evenings, typically about 8-10 hours apart between doses.

Did that for 10 days, and then ran my moonlights for 6 hours a day for the next 3 days. Ran my blues at 30% for the next 3 days and am on day 2 of 5% white, 25% blue for 8 hours. Rocks are completely clear of that fuzz that showed up out of the blue when I was using NOPOX.

I'm still skimming a bit wet, but not nearly as much. I've also been doing a series of small 10g water changes. PO4 reading 0, and my NO3 reading has gone up since the algae has been dying. Reading at 2ppm.

Am I winning? too early to say.

Did I absolutely have dino's? Don't know.

Are my rocks completely clear of all fuzz? yes, 100%.

[koral_lover]

Day 4 of blackout - sps starting to suffer, dinos appear to be all be dead in the display (or at least are now in the water column), however, I left the fuge light running this whole time and can clearly see dinos in the fuge on my chaeto....what do I do know? Cut the fuge light for a few days? I rinsed the chaeto in fresh water last night, but didn't seem to clear the dinos. I am going to start running actinics only tomorrow in the display I think...some slow stn on some corals is too concerning to continue going lights out...

[Dfee]

Day 4 of blackout - sps starting to suffer, dinos appear to be all be dead in the display (or at least are now in the water column), however, I left the fuge light running this whole time and can clearly see dinos in the fuge on my chaeto....what do I do know? Cut the fuge light for a few days? I rinsed the chaeto in fresh water last night, but didn't seem to clear the dinos. I am going to start running actinics only tomorrow in the display I think...some slow stn on some corals is too concerning to continue going lights out...


How did that freshwater rinse not remove dinos from chaeto???

If it just came back really quick, you should just keep rinsing and repeating. Seems your dinos are attracted to your chaeto in the lit refugium. This could be a good thing.

[koral_lover]

I am not sure how....I will keep rinsing the chaeto and siphoning dinos out of fuge area the next 24 hours and see if I can slow them down.

[joti26]

Today I am declaring my tank dino free at last! Five days now with lights back on full and can't find a live one anywhere. I have had a bit of a bacteria bloom and noticed some diatoms but nothing major and some algae is starting to grow again. Rocks are looking clear and replaced 10 micron sock with a normal one and no sign of browning. The smell has completely gone as well. All corals are doing really well. For everyone's enjoyment here are a couple of pics of the dead uns being eaten by bacteria :) Well I hope I managed to upload them!

[joti26]

I am not sure how....I will keep rinsing the chaeto and siphoning dinos out of fuge area the next 24 hours and see if I can slow them down.

I got rid of mine in the cheato by removing it and keeping in complete darkness for 5 days and then rinsing it heavily in RO once the dino's seemed to have gone from the main tank and sump. I then added water from the skimmer for a couple of days before putting it back in. My theory is that if you remove the good bacteria from rinsing or dipping corals the dino's seem to get a better hold. Rinsing it without this seemed to just make them worse.

[robertifly]

Ok who was wanting some live dinos shipped to them to experiment on, I'll be glad to send some if you can tell me how to ship,, I'll even pay the charges just tell me how you like to have them, what kind to I have? UGLY seriously I haven't a clue. Robert

[nvladik]

Today I am declaring my tank dino free at last! Five days now with lights back on full and can't find a live one anywhere. I have had a bit of a bacteria bloom and noticed some diatoms but nothing major and some algae is starting to grow again. Rocks are looking clear and replaced 10 micron sock with a normal one and no sign of browning. The smell has completely gone as well. All corals are doing really well. For everyone's enjoyment here are a couple of pics of the dead uns being eaten by bacteria :) Well I hope I managed to upload them!

I'd wait a little more before making that declaration. My tank was dyno free (my thought and my mistake). I was adding Pods and Phyto daily for another week. Then a week later I noticed two small bubbles on one of my rocks (135g tank, so imagine how hard I looked for any at all bubbles). 2 more weeks pass and dynos are back.

Not trying to discourage you or say you are not dyno free, just keep doing what you were doing, don't stop like I did.

[joti26]

I'd wait a little more before making that declaration. My tank was dyno free (my thought and my mistake). I was adding Pods and Phyto daily for another week. Then a week later I noticed two small bubbles on one of my rocks (135g tank, so imagine how hard I looked for any at all bubbles). 2 more weeks pass and dynos are back.

Not trying to discourage you or say you are not dyno free, just keep doing what you were doing, don't stop like I did.

Doh! Right filter socks back in then!

[karimwassef]

I think socks contribute to dinos ... IMO

[joti26]

I think socks contribute to dinos ... IMO

Why's that?

[karimwassef]

If they're fine, they trap dinos as well as pods, detritus, and food waste. It's like a Petri dish of waste. With the right conditions, that feeds the dinos.

Unless the mesh is superfine, the dinos are not trapped. So it's like a pass through buffet with guaranteed food.

It's a philosophy in keeping reefs for me. Everything in my tank replicates a function in nature. I have only two exceptions... Carbon and GFO. Everything else mimics a natural system.

[bertoni]

If the socks are cleaned daily or so, their effect should be small. Otherwise, they might favor some bacterial populations over other organisms due to the high flow and separation from the substrate and live rock.

[karimwassef]

true. who cleans their socks daily?

:)

[taricha]

... another comment from this thread that I can't find. Someone said that they had some dinos, ran UV and it did nothing, then later they looked at the microscope to find that the species of dinos had changed.

this was the post I was referring to...

So in an unexpected result slow flow UV killed my Osteopsis and now another type has taken its place and seems to not make strings and stay more on the sand. Even when my return pump was out i never saw strings just heavy dusting.
So just a heads up... if you havent looked under the scope in a while it might be valuable info to take a recent look.

Fishkeeper mentioned in a PM he later ID'd the new ones as amphidinium. From my experience, not a super toxic type. If I had Ostis, and could trade them for amphidinium by running UV - I'd do it every time.

[Dfee]

Any updates on my Dino sample, Taricha?

[joti26]

If they're fine, they trap dinos as well as pods, detritus, and food waste. It's like a Petri dish of waste. With the right conditions, that feeds the dinos.

Unless the mesh is superfine, the dinos are not trapped. So it's like a pass through buffet with guaranteed food.

It's a philosophy in keeping reefs for me. Everything in my tank replicates a function in nature. I have only two exceptions... Carbon and GFO. Everything else mimics a natural system.

They are 10 micron and changed them daily while I had the dino's.

[Billybatz9]

Tank was doing good today. Dosed cal And alk, end of day, entire left panel was filled with dinos. All brown. Wtfff

[karimwassef]

That's what I used: 10 micron sock .. it was disgusting and got clogged constantly... it was POOL size too.

I won't try that again.

[taricha]

Ok who was wanting some live dinos shipped to them to experiment on, I'll be glad to send some if you can tell me how to ship,, I'll even pay the charges just tell me how you like to have them, what kind to I have? UGLY seriously I haven't a clue. Robert

I do still want live dinos - even more if they are toxic. I'll send you a PM with my shipping info.

Dfee,thanks so much. I got your sample a few days ago, put it under the scope that night.
Saw almost exclusively diatoms. almost nothing living.
https://goo.gl/photos/fwjbcZ67QqobamDm6
the brown discoloration in the rag was also diatoms
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMiUjIJnz6cbOA66JD3cCEX1I4pC1XxD1NGe9KG

took many samples, and after a lot of looking I am uncertain. I did find a few weird clear shapes of similar size and shape repeated often enough to make me wonder if it was the theca (armor) that came off of a dead dino.
https://goo.gl/photos/5xmgsmBBcHLUpu9E9

then I found a brown pigmented blob of similar size and shape that bore resemblance to a dino
https://goo.gl/photos/HTW1iWNQnnhtKFBL6
zoomed in
https://goo.gl/photos/HVByH74DrFdZDXuJ6

short vid changing focal plane. there's some sort of dino-like structure to it.
https://goo.gl/photos/9oDznmRqkZtohY9bA

I didn't post while I tried to look for possible IDs. Didn't have much luck there. While it's an unusual shape, there are a lot of lumpy shaped dinos...
like http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0932473908X00021-cov150h.gif (that's an amphidiniopsis)

[taricha]

I dug one of these reports up again and it said benthic, and by that I think they mean short turf like algae and that I have seen plenty of.

I've never seen dinos on my caulerpa, chaeato or other algae that does not stay close to the ground.

Saw some slight brown strings from the exposed "roots" of my caulerpa
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160324/3e5a614392a0c7f1d86b4ee0a7c7f9be.jpg

And under the scope, dinos!
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160324/89406cd3667f1d1c9cda39a98a5fbdd3.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160324/b8749ef3a0c4d9c03c74ccd6f6f532e5.jpg

So many weird shapes. Like an artichoke?
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160324/32881db401ab14f984be1698036e764e.jpg

Lots of reports of "epiphytic" dinos in the literature, all kinds of funky shapes.

[DNA]

Of course we have endless species of microscopic life in our tanks which is good.
We just don't want them to bloom, that's it.

I like this cooperation that's going on here.
Unfortunate that you didn't get a definite outcome.

[DNA]

Over the last 3 weeks or so I've done around 10 siphons of the sandbed.
One would expect to get less and less gunk out when it's done this frequently, but that is not the case.
The amounts are simply amazing every time.

I took a closer look at the lightest particles and found one type of special interest.
It has the color and similar shape to my ostis but is more uniform, larger and they don't move.
I kept wondering if these are cysts so I melted all the calcium based particles off just to get that possibility out of the way.
It surely looks organic.

Being in their millions in the sand that is close to solely inhabited with dinos it's tempting to assume they are cysts.

[stu.uk]

Has anyone had any issues with a bubble tip and blacking out their tank for 3 days? It is nicely puffed up and settled in it's spot so don't want it wandering?

[Dfee]

Hmm , interesting. I guess that's good news. Thanks again, Taricha. The reason I thought Dino and not diatom was because they get worse throughout the day and also after water changes. I guess water changes could fuel diatoms and I just found out diatoms are photosynthetic. I didn't think they were

[taricha]

Hmm , interesting. I guess that's good news. Thanks again, Taricha. The reason I thought Dino and not diatom was because they get worse throughout the day and also after water changes. I guess water changes could fuel diatoms and I just found out diatoms are photosynthetic. I didn't think they were

My take is that you indeed had a dino bloom at one point, and they have since receded, to be replaced - on the glass at least - by diatoms and green film algae. I take it as signs that your tank has turned the corner on your pest. All good news.

But, I would expect any soon attempt to starve out the diatoms/green film would cause dinos to reassert themselves.

[Dfee]

My take is that you indeed had a dino bloom at one point, and they have since receded, to be replaced - on the glass at least - by diatoms and green film algae. I take it as signs that your tank has turned the corner on your pest. All good news.



But, I would expect any soon attempt to starve out the diatoms/green film would cause dinos to reassert themselves.


Well, I haven't had long brown snotty dinos in about a year. So if they are indeed diatoms, how have they not consumed all their food (silicates) and died out by now?

[karimwassef]

when they die, they release the silicates back? It's a closed system unless you extract them with skimming or water changes.

[taricha]

... what kind do I have? UGLY seriously I haven't a clue. Robert

I'll get pics up soon, but it looks like majority ostreopsis, although the first one I got pics of was actually prorocentrum now that I look carefully at it.

[taricha]

In the sample from robertifly, found some prorocentrum
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160326/2c33847257363a37f0d2c3807297a4e3.jpg

One of those elaborate shaped dinophysis(?) that we never get to see in our aquariums
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160326/d6d25b8e62848c12f904b4a75463f39c.jpg

But mostly lots of ostreopsis. Likely o. Ovata. They were pretty well scattered from the shipping, but there were lots of them all over.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160326/c87106737a15e1f986d6419ce6b87a76.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160326/1333f785f731db147bebcf59c25f796b.jpg

Video
https://youtu.be/mSWkI7deXk0

Full gallery here
https://goo.gl/photos/keZ7ZeXLygyhQCvU6

[koral_lover]

three days since lights have been back on...no dinos in sight...yet!

hoping I have gotten rid of them for a while...two sps rtn'd during the 4 day lights out, I suppose it was worth it though, if I can keep them from returning. On day three, vaccumed out sump/detritus with shop vac and did large water change. Also bumped my alk up to 10, to try to keep Ph up. I can't say what has resulted in my small success so far...last time I did lights out they came back like crazy a day later...will let all know if they return. Oddly enough, my coraline algae has exploded during the lights out period.

[DNA]

three days since lights have been back on...no dinos in sight...yet!

hoping I have gotten rid of them for a while...two sps rtn'd during the 4 day lights out, I suppose it was worth it though, if I can keep them from returning. On day three, vaccumed out sump/detritus with shop vac and did large water change. Also bumped my alk up to 10, to try to keep Ph up. I can't say what has resulted in my small success so far...last time I did lights out they came back like crazy a day later...will let all know if they return. Oddly enough, my coraline algae has exploded during the lights out period.

I'd guess your coraline is doing good because you corals are miserable and most likely not growing at all.
Two of them were is such a bad shape that a short darkness finished them.

---

Well, I haven't had long brown snotty dinos in about a year. So if they are indeed diatoms, how have they not consumed all their food (silicates) and died out by now?
It's been a few years for me.

---



Full gallery here
https://goo.gl/photos/keZ7ZeXLygyhQCvU6

Nice pictures.
I've got hundreds, after way to many years, from a futile battlle.

[bertoni]

when they die, they release the silicates back? It's a closed system unless you extract them with skimming or water changes.
No, their shells are not soluble at the pressure levels in our tanks. They will dissolve deeper in the ocean.

[DNA]

Over the last 3 weeks or so I've done around 10 siphons of the sandbed.
One would expect to get less and less gunk out when it's done this frequently, but that is not the case.
The amounts are simply amazing every time.

I took a closer look at the lightest particles and found one type of special interest.
It has the color and similar shape to my ostis but is more uniform, larger and they don't move.
I kept wondering if these are cysts so I melted all the calcium based particles off just to get that possibility out of the way.
It surely looks organic.

Being in their millions in the sand that is close to solely inhabited with dinos it's tempting to assume they are cysts.

I calculated the average size of these particles to 44 microns, examined the photographs further and compared to material found on the web.
The size is good for both cysts and cells and since they come in various sizes it's not a dead giveaway.

The shape is a close, but not a perfect match to cysts so I think what I have are regular dinos that have lost their cell wall. (theca)
If that is the case all dead dinos do that since there is no other form found in the sample of thousands.

[mikeatjac]

After reading this thread twice I got no answers.
So over the course of 3 weeks I;
Weekly 100% water changes with IO (no organics)
Loaded up my carbon reactor.
Double the gfo I was running.
Raised my ph to 11
Ran my tank with blue lights only
Changed my felt socks 3 times a day.
Removed all sand.

Today I can find not a trace. Corals look good even they were exposed to the air for 30 minutes. Dinos are probably still there so I will continue this process for another two weeks.

[robertifly]

Mike I applaud you for taking affirmative action and I certainly hope continued (Dino Free) success. I know we are all as frustrated as you are, seems like someone should have found a tried and true method to eliminate these things by now. I only hope we can all keep trying and sharing as you have, maybe we'll have an answer soon.

[mikeatjac]

Hope so. I meant raised alk to 11.

[jason2459]

I've definitely confirmed what I already knew and that dinos (not just the good kinds) still live in my tank. They just don't flourish or at least show that they do in my display tank.

And I have doubts that any tank that has shown dino issues in the past are ever truly pest dino free.

[karimwassef]

I've definitely confirmed what I already knew and that dinos (not just the good kinds) still live in my tank. They just don't flourish or at least show that they do in my display tank.

And I have doubts that any tank that has shown dino issues in the past are ever truly pest dino free.

I doubt any tank is dino or dino cyst free. It's like saying that a tank is bacteria free.

[jason2459]

I doubt any tank is dino or dino cyst free. It's like saying that a tank is bacteria free.
I agree but I don't like all encompassing ALL statements.

[DNA]

Originally Posted by DNA View Post
Over the last 3 weeks or so I've done around 10 siphons of the sandbed.
One would expect to get less and less gunk out when it's done this frequently, but that is not the case.
The amounts are simply amazing every time.

I took a closer look at the lightest particles and found one type of special interest.
It has the color and similar shape to my ostis but is more uniform, larger and they don't move.
I kept wondering if these are cysts so I melted all the calcium based particles off just to get that possibility out of the way.
It surely looks organic.

Being in their millions in the sand that is close to solely inhabited with dinos it's tempting to assume they are cysts.
I calculated the average size of these particles to 44 microns, examined the photographs further and compared to material found on the web.
The size is good for both cysts and cells and since they come in various sizes it's not a dead giveaway.

The shape is a close, but not a perfect match to cysts so I think what I have are regular dinos that have lost their cell wall. (theca)
If that is the case all dead dinos do that since there is no other form found in the sample of thousands.

Detritus collects in my overflow box.
Today I took a sample from the bottom of it and at least 95% are these particles.
Of the rest I assume 4% to be the same particles broken up and 1% unknown.

A quick conclusion could be that 99% of the drifting ditritus in my tank is dino related.

---

Now turn on your brains and think for a while. I see this as another milestone.

.

[DNA]

A day of discovery.
This is the first time I see on print why the dinos and cyano like to hang out together.
+
---

Most dinoflagellates are encased in plates of armor.

Dinoflagellates are surrounded by a complex covering called the amphiesma, which consists of outer and inner continuous membranes, and between which lie a series of flattened vesicles. In armored forms, these vesicles contain the thecal plates, cellulose plates that are the "armor". This armor may be lacking (the cells are "naked"), and some species shed their theca under certain environmental conditions.

Armored dinoflagellates have two major plate regions composed of two to 100 individual plates. The edges of the plates overlap, sliding apart as the cell increases in size and allowing the cell to expand. The plates come in many varied shapes, from spherical forms like Peridinium to elongate horn-like forms such as Ceratium. In addition, some species have ridges or crests -- especially members of the Dinophysiales, such as the one shown at right. In some, the crests may be hollow and house cyanobacteria which provide fixed nitrogen to the host. This is most common in nitrogen-poor waters.

Source: http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/protista/dinoflagmm.html

[taricha]

In addition, some species have ridges or crests -- especially members of the Dinophysiales, such as the one shown at right. In some, the crests may be hollow and house cyanobacteria which provide fixed nitrogen to the host. This is most common in nitrogen-poor waters. [/I]

Source: http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/protista/dinoflagmm.html

Here's another fun one (http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/107/m107p083.pdf) that discusses what the cyano gets out of the deal.
They found dinos - some in very deep water - that hosted cyano in the armor and sometimes within the cell itself.
"We propose that heterotrophic dinoflagellate hosts may provide the cyanobacterial symbionts with the anaerobic microenvironment necessary for efficient N fixation. Thus, these self-supporting consortia increase in numbers during the long period of stratification and nitrogen limitation in the oligotrophic subtropical waters of the Gulf of Aqaba."

Detritus collects in my overflow box.
Today I took a sample from the bottom of it and at least 95% are these particles.
Of the rest I assume 4% to be the same particles broken up and 1% unknown.
I wonder if there's anything you could do to determine whether these are 'asleep' in their cysts or dead. Didn't you get reinvigorated blooms by adding Ca/Alk?
Could you pull these out into a container and simulate adding Ca/Alk to see if they 'wake up'?

[taricha]

I've definitely confirmed what I already knew and that dinos (not just the good kinds) still live in my tank. They just don't flourish or at least show that they do in my display tank.

And I have doubts that any tank that has shown dino issues in the past are ever truly pest dino free.

Agreed 100% and I suspect that most people with a dino outbreak have multiple species present, and I'll bet treatments that work in some tanks but "fail" in others are "failing" in that they reduce populations of some kinds, while another species increases.
It likely explains a lot of failures of "one method at a time" approaches.

[karimwassef]

I still think that nitrogen fixation was a key to this.. at least in my tank.

[DNA]

Oh dear.
I just spent a few hours looking at detritus in the wild and found some dinos hanging on the the particles from my previous post and realized I got my sense of scale wrong somewhere.
I still have to find out what they are.

[joti26]

Ok so although no visible signs of dino's for 10 days there are still some there when I take samples from filter sock and anything I siphon out. Maybe four or five here and there. However, thinking I had another bloom of them with brown areas developing and odd spots of bubbles I scraped some of the brown off and seems I now have a massive outbreak of diatoms! So any suggestions, should I leave them? Seems like some are feeding on dead dino's as well. Not sure what to do now?

[DNA]

Anyone recognizes these particles?
Hardly visible with the naked eye and a bit larger than dinos.

Particles (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPUg2H9f-zqxvYxg04m-stHNTHwxkMVEl8sSPe1)
Sinks from the siphon tube (https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipPWtG7zeFuNi1_NLbLjVA4dhsM6jKGBYfqPyaK_)

[taricha]

Diatoms don't "feed" on dinos. But they will take advantage of nutrients made available by dino deaths.
If you don't want dinos, you need to replace them with something, diatoms have volunteered for the job!
Speaking of diatoms, DNA, scale is a headache, and in a pinch, I've used groups of diatoms as scale bars.
For instance, in joti's post the pigmented part of those diatoms is about 20 microns I think.

Dunno how flawed that method is, but maybe it gets within +-50%

[joti26]

Diatoms don't "feed" on dinos. But they will take advantage of nutrients made available by dino deaths.
If you don't want dinos, you need to replace them with something, diatoms have volunteered for the job!
Speaking of diatoms, DNA, scale is a headache, and in a pinch, I've used groups of diatoms as scale bars.
For instance, in joti's post the pigmented part of those diatoms is about 20 microns I think.

Dunno how flawed that method is, but maybe it gets within +-50%

I was going to get a scale slide until I saw how much they cost :O So any suggestions as to how to get rid of the diatoms now?

[34cygni]

dirty method+light+no skimming+trace elements

Three out of four make sense to me...


Other researchers compared the requirements for the trace elements Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Co, and Cd in what I'm guessing were eight common laboratory strains of coccolithophores, diatoms, and dinos -- the three dominant primary producers in the modern oceans -- and found that the dinos had relatively high quotas for all six metals. The diatoms, interestingly, had very low requirements for all six of these micronutrients (though some planktonic diatoms are known to have high requirements for Fe, possibly because they host cyanobacterial endosymbionts) while the cocos had high quotas for Mn, Co, and Cd, but low requirements for iron, zinc, and copper.

Dinos' high requirements for trace elements would explain and confirm these and a number of similar observations over the life of this thread...


06/24/2013, 01:55 PM #1
DNA
Water changes
Dinoflagellates love water changes and not doing them will for sure make the dinos suffer.

08/29/2013, 04:24 PM #19
Squidmotron
5) I agree that water changes -- if anything -- make it worse. They seem to die off more the longer between the water changes. I read a few articles that they like and depend on selenium and iron. Maybe that affects it.
6) Obvious, but do not dose trace elements.

11/19/2013, 10:08 AM #99
bazeball05
stop doing water changes (Dino's are fueled by trace elements)

10/11/2014, 03:26 PM #342
cal_stir
I to am in the midst of a battle with ostreopsis, about six weeks now, I to am convinced that water changes feed it

As for other primary producers, diazotrophic cyano hearts iron because those species need Fe to make nitrogenase, the enzyme they need to fix nitrogen. Green algaes need iron, zinc, and copper; red algaes have higher requirements for Mn, Co, and Cd and lower quotas than greens for Fe, Zn, and Cu.

But if dosing trace is good for dinos, it never looked to me like the flipside of that -- drawing down trace elements -- could be used against them. Even if trace metals are depleted in the water column, the bacterial decay of organic matter in the sand is constantly releasing more (as well as N and P) into the interstitial water, not to mention that mixotrophic dinos can eat the bacteria themselves. To outcompete dinos for trace nutrients would thus require a change of management in the microphytobenthos so the dinos lose control of their source of trace metals.


Chaeto and Caulerpa grew well, many many more pods, worms, and general critters took up residence in the sandbed. Dinos directly under the chaeto started to disappear. Maybe it was chemical competition, or predation from the critters living in the chaeto, or reduced light under chaeto, or a combination. Other than directly below chaeto, cyano and dinos continued to grow, even right next to the macros. ...

From what I've seen with the macros in my tank - having looked through the microscope at the sandbed for hours before and after the macroalgae was dropped in. To say there's 10x more benthic fauna of 5x as many species as without the macro likely severely understates the case. And I was going "dirty method" before the macros went in. ...

And the locations of dinos/cyano retreat and reappearance says that proximity to algae is a strong factor.

This sounds like the "DDAM + dinos" model I proposed on page 101 (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000&page=101) in action. That is, the DDAM model describes competition between corals and algae, ecosystem engineers that shape the composition and function of the reef ecosystem from the bottom up, starting with the bacteria population, and I proposed that dinos fight for the same goal and on the same terms, using organic carbon (and when necessary, their toxins) to recruit and maintain an army of friendly bacteria much as algae and corals do.


Just as coral-friendly bacteria reinforce conditions amenable to coral and algae-friendly bacteria help algae take over reefs, dino-friendly bacteria want to remake the ecosystem to suit dinos.

But while I thought about the possibility of outcompeting benthic dinos for trace and it seemed unlikely to succeed, I didn't turn it around and think about dinos (which as noted have high trace requirements) and their bacteria farms (which also need a lot of trace) outcompeting the rest of the system for trace elements.

To me, taricha, what your report suggests is that dinos don't like to let nutrients pass up the food chain (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/swirls-plankton-decorate-arabian-sea). I mean, yes, the argument can be made that dinos would naturally want to kill off any potential predators, and by so doing, it happens that they sever the trophic link between the world of single-celled organisms and the macro world of multicellular life... But the counterpoint is that the dinoflagellate holobiont is pretty much a biological desert even after more than 200 million years and several mass extinctions which afforded dinos plenty of opportunities to recruit and build up their team, so it would seem that sharing simply isn't compatible with their way of life (...which may explain why they appear to be declining on a long-term, evolutionary time scale -- dinos, appropriately enough, peaked when dinosaurs ruled the world). Recall that dinos are predators that acquired the ability to photosynthesize, not autotrophs that learned to hunt, so I suspect that in their heart of hearts, they want to be on top of the food chain. To that end, dinos try to sequester important nutrients in the microbial loop -- or, to put it another way, in their bacteria farms: when a dino dies, its decay feeds bacteria, and the bacteria and the nutrients released by the decay process feed the dinos.

Because the microphytobenthos -- the primary producers living in the uppermost couple of millimeters of sand where enough light penetrates to support photosynthesis -- can absorb both nutrients in the water column diffusing into the sand and also nutrients in the interstitial water diffusing up out of the sand, organisms occupying this ecological niche largely regulate the exchange of nutrients between the water and the sediment. As most nutrient cycles can only be closed by anaerobes living in the sand and rock, this puts dinos in the catbird seat. Changing the benthic bacteria population and by so doing, changing the flux of nutrients coming out of the sediments, is fundamental to the fight between corals and algae for dominance in a reef environment: corals want the benthic community to release food as particulate, ideally living, organic carbon and produce net surplus O2 over the course of a day; algae want the benthic environment to be dominated by heterotrophs, in oxygen deficit, and releasing mineralized nutrients.

Dinos live in the ecological sweet spot that corals and algae are trying to manipulate for their own benefit, so naturally dinos manipulate it for theirs. Rather than liberating nutrients for the benefit of macroscopic forms of life, apparently dinos make a point of trying to lock up nitrogen (they can even store surplus N internally as urea) and trace metals in the microbial loop, no doubt because these elements are vital for protein synthesis. Phosphorous, on the other hand, they don't seem so worried about, perhaps because they need surplus P to recruit and farm cyano, and perhaps also because P is primarily consumed during the synthesis of ribosomes and genetic material, which is generally associated with reproduction, which other forms of life won't be doing a lot of if the dinos are hoarding N and trace in the microbial loop.


If I had to guess which trace element is responsible, I'd lean towards Iron

Iron is the only micronutrient known to limit primary producers in the wild, so that would be the place the start. If I were a dino, I'd want to lock down the local iron supply because iron-limiting other phototrophs would be the natural "backup system" to turn to if I lost control of the nitrogen supply.


It could be any number of other things, there's nothing I've observed that excludes, for instance the Cobalt-B12-Cyano-Dino connection.

Given that dinos have high requirements for trace elements on top of the requirements of the bacteria they depend on, directly or indirectly, to obtain nutrients, it could well be that dinos not only "know" where all the crucial choke points are (like vitamin B-12) but have evolved ways of cornering the market on any micronutrient that potential competitors would need, and can prioritize which element(s) they should invest their energy in monopolizing on the basis of what nutrients are available and which competitors are growing fastest at any given moment.


For two days I didn't have time to look at the tank or dose N or P. Just throw in a pinch of food.

Don't overlook the dog that didn't bark. This non-event -- stopping nutrient inputs -- may have factored into the dinos' collapse.


So thinking back on it, my dino species count from my tank is 5...

I seriously doubt my tank is all that special. It's not like I scooped up sand samples from 10 different coasts and poured them in my tank. I would be shocked if most plagued tanks don't have at least a couple of different species active at the same time.

Co-occurrence of multiple benthic dinoflagellate species has been observed in the wild, and it's common for pelagic dinoflagellate blooms to go through multiple species successions. As each bloom fades and the dinos decay, another species gets going -- apparently by eating the resulting bacteria bloom.

I previously mentioned that I assumed the presence of multiple species of heterotrophic dinos in hobby systems; ditto for mixos, which is why I added a line to Quiet_Ivy's FAQ about the risk of ending up with tougher, more toxic dinos if you knock an infestation back but don't follow through. And IIRC, Montireef reported getting amphidinium after he knocked back his ostis, so it can potentially go in the other direction, too.


Saw some slight brown strings from the exposed "roots" of my caulerpa

And under the scope, dinos!

Interesting that they showed up on the part of the algae that grows underground, as epiphytic typically refers to organisms growing on the "leaves" (...and from what I read, epiphytic dinos will also grow on seagrass, which actually does have leaves). Your caulerpa kept growing prior to the dinos' collapse, IIRC -- it was the exception you reported to several observations suggesting Fe limitation... And you reported spots free of dinos developing under your chaeto, but not the caulerpa...? And, of course, caulerpa is freakishly robust and toxic... I wonder if caulerpa could have "defected" from Team Green Algae and made friends with some of the bacteria in the dino holobiont -- maybe that's how it was able to get iron (or B-12 or whatever) when it was in short supply.

--

I just spent some time on google looking at images of dino infested tanks looking for similarities.
What stood out and most seem to have in common is that they are sparsely populated with corals.

Hmm... Maybe I was wrong about this...

So while corals help build up the bacteriolandscape do they really combat the complimentary bacteria for Dino's? It certainly explains why corals suffer. So should you add MORE corals if you have a Dino problem?

The tale about the changing bacteria on the corals taken from the Red Sea, kept in fishbowls, and then put back where they came from was meant in part to address this. Corals will rebuild healthy and diverse bacteria populations all by themselves if they get the chance, so rather than adding new corals, we should be concentrating on saving and building up the ones we have.

That crossed my mind when I was looking at PorkchopExpress' very pretty tank (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000&page=119) some weeks ago. The DDAM model suggests that adding macro would shift a system towards the algae holobiont, and adding corals should tend to favor the population of coral-friendly bacteria and benthic primary producers at the base of a system's food web.

But while adding more corals might help against entrenched dinos, taricha's approach apparently actually did help, and it looks safer, cheaper, and easier for others to play around with (...excepting the 3 hours of sunlight -- I expect most folks won't be able to implement that, while the minority report will be something along the lines of, "Three hours? Why only three hours?"). If by some miracle it works with your ostis, DNA, you can always shift the tank towards coral dominance afterwards.


That led me to think about the natural chemical warfare in reef ecosystems.
A local friend has ostis, but his tank has always looked better than mine and he's got much more coral density than I have had since dinos showed up.
I had a hard time finding the dinos, but they were there. Then he built a connected frag tank and it got covered, in the empty tanks, with dinos right away.

While the chemical warfare is real, the DDAM model says it's mostly about biological warfare -- that is, recruiting bacteria to do your dirty work. It makes sense, if you think about it: bacteria (and archaea) are the real experts on chemical warfare as they've been doing it for 4 billion years and they reproduce and evolve considerably more quickly than multicellular organisms, so standard operating practice is to recruit mercenaries from this population to fight for you. Multicellular organisms have to recruit friendly bacteria just to survive in a world full of bacteria that want to kill and eat us, so it's just a hop, skip, and a jump from there to paying single-celled Hessians to occupy territory and even attack on our behalf.


In addition, some species have ridges or crests -- especially members of the Dinophysiales, such as the one shown at right. In some, the crests may be hollow and house cyanobacteria which provide fixed nitrogen to the host. This is most common in nitrogen-poor waters.

Here's another fun one that discusses what the cyano gets out of the deal.
They found dinos - some in very deep water - that hosted cyano in the armor and sometimes within the cell itself.
"We propose that heterotrophic dinoflagellate hosts may provide the cyanobacterial symbionts with the anaerobic microenvironment necessary for efficient N fixation. Thus, these self-supporting consortia increase in numbers during the long period of stratification and nitrogen limitation in the oligotrophic subtropical waters of the Gulf of Aqaba."

That may tie into this...


We investigated microphytobenthic photosynthesis at four stations in the coral reef sediments at Heron Reef, Australia. The microphytobenthos was dominated by diatoms, dinoflagellates and cyanobacteria, as indicated by biomarker pigment analysis. Conspicuous algae firmly attached to the sand grains (ca. 100 um in diameter, surrounded by a hard transparent wall) [...note that this sounds a bit like what Quiet_Ivy described as "harder brown circular spots on the glass"] were rich in peridinin, a marker pigment for dinoflagellates, but also showed a high diversity based on cyanobacterial 16S rDNA gene sequence analysis.

If some planktonic dinos find it so worthwhile to have symbiotic cyano around that they evolved little bay windows in their armor to give cyanobacteria a home, it seems perfectly reasonable that some benthic dinos could have evolved a way to build greenhouses for their cyano in the sand. They'd be able to grow a lot more cyano that way. And I've been wondering for months if those spots on Quiet_Ivy's glass were palatial versions of microhabitats that dinos normally build on the surface of sand grains... IIRC, Quiet_Ivy reported dino goo growing from the spots on her glass when things got bad in her tank, so they were clearly important to the ostis.


Oh dear.
I just spent a few hours looking at detritus in the wild and found some dinos hanging on the the particles from my previous post and realized I got my sense of scale wrong somewhere.
I still have to find out what they are.

I'm still pulling for forams. Have you been comparing your mystery calcifiers to foraminifera?

--

It's a philosophy in keeping reefs for me. Everything in my tank replicates a function in nature. I have only two exceptions... Carbon and GFO. Everything else mimics a natural system

Pursuant to that thought, did you keep the cryptic zone you added to your sump? After stumbling across the sponge loop (http://www.nature.com/articles/srep18715), I'm wondering if you have an opinion on whether or not that was worthwhile on any level.


who cleans their socks daily?

Physically removing dinos by changing out 10 um filter socks daily (later every other day) was part of cal_stir's routine. He checked his dino population by looking to see what and how many got filtered out when he swapped in a clean one.


05/25/2015, 08:42 PM #1123
cal_stir

I use 10uM filter socks on my drains which I change every 2 days. Looking at the tank I can't tell I have dinos but under the microscope I still see a few in my skimmate and socks but they seem deformed and are weak swimmers, I've started culturing phyto to rebuild the micro fauna and critters that were destroyed by FM algaeX (trying to get rid of bubble algae) which I believe are what keep the dinos in check.

--

when they die, they release the silicates back? It's a closed system unless you extract them with skimming or water changes.

No, their shells are not soluble at the pressure levels in our tanks. They will dissolve deeper in the ocean.

What's your source on this? You're thinking of CaCO3, I suspect.

In the wild, > 50% of biogenic silica formed in the marine environment dissolves at a depth of < 100 m, and 97% of biogenic silica is recycled in surface waters and on the seafloor, both of which are environments present in comparative abundance in aquaria.

--

Well, I haven't had long brown snotty dinos in about a year. So if they are indeed diatoms, how have they not consumed all their food (silicates) and died out by now?

Do you have dissolved Si in your tap water? Tap water topoffs or a RODI rig with an old/clogged/damaged filter could be putting silicates into your tank.

A lengthy transitional diatom period has been reported by some after knocking down their dinos with the dirty method, so a diatom phase is probably a normal part of a tank's ecology rebuilding itself after the dinopocalypse much as a diatom phase is a normal part of a tank's birth process -- but a year is ridiculous... If you really have been stuck with diatoms for a year and you've ruled out any external source of Si that's keeping them going, you may be able to short-circuit the silicon cycle by introducing aluminum (in the form of powdered basalt or kaolinite) into the substrate to see if you can trigger the formation of aluminosilicate minerals and sequester the Si in the sand. This is very common geochemistry in the wild, but since aluminum is toxic and presumably nobody puts it in their tank, this sink may be inactive in hobby systems.

The interaction between aluminum and the silicon cycle is something I picked up from a book, but the basic idea -- aluminum reduces the release of silicic acid (H4SiO4) from benthic sediments -- is in this abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2002JC001309/full). Apparently, replacing about 1 in every 75 atoms of Si in biogenic silica with an atom of Al reduces the silica's solubility by 25%, substantially reducing the efficiency of Si recycling. And while some diatoms are toxic, the edibility of diatoms generally has an inverse relationship to the thickness (and in some species also spikiness) of their silica armor, so lowering the availability of Si by a modest amount may make a big difference to your CUC.

[DNA]

34cygni:
Good job at connecting the dots.

My particles are not calcium based. I proved that with vinegar.
Given the amounts of them, dino related is all I can think of at the moment.

Here are the calcium based ones I found on my overflow sides recently.
Foraminifera (https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipNsWbOwfRj0QqNIiEujJhXJcTX5FPRqMfVw-I5-)

I measured my calcium at 400 yesterday and that is the highest for a very long time without adding chemicals on top to my calcium reactor and kalkwasser.
The frequent siphoning could have produced this result.

[nvladik]

Detritus collects in my overflow box.
Today I took a sample from the bottom of it and at least 95% are these particles.
Of the rest I assume 4% to be the same particles broken up and 1% unknown.

A quick conclusion could be that 99% of the drifting ditritus in my tank is dino related.

---

Now turn on your brains and think for a while. I see this as another milestone.

.

Hi DNA. Did you consider trying Automatic Roller Mat filtration as opposed to filter socks to permanently remove the particles from the tank or is it simply not enough and dyno's will go right through it?

[nvladik]

DNA, can't seem to load your photo's posted on google, keep getting 404s.

[DNA]

Here are the images again. They worked for me. It's a free Google service, but the lack of hotlinking makes it no good..

Particles (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPUg2H9f-zqxvYxg04m-stHNTHwxkMVEl8sSPe1)
Sinks from the siphon tube (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPWtG7zeFuNi1_NLbLjVA4dhsM6jKGBYfqPyaK_)
Foraminifera (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNsWbOwfRj0QqNIiEujJhXJcTX5FPRqMfVw-I5-)

[nvladik]

Here are the images again. They worked for me. It's a free Google service, but the lack of hotlinking makes it no good..

Particles (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPUg2H9f-zqxvYxg04m-stHNTHwxkMVEl8sSPe1)
Sinks from the siphon tube (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPWtG7zeFuNi1_NLbLjVA4dhsM6jKGBYfqPyaK_)
Foraminifera (https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNsWbOwfRj0QqNIiEujJhXJcTX5FPRqMfVw-I5-)

Hmmm not sure what's going on but none of them work for me. Can anyone else see them?

[karimwassef]

34cygni - yes. I've maintained my cryptic zone. It's so cryptic that a couple of fish have gotten in there and I have no way to get them out without tearing it apart.

They've lived there for 6 months now. Eating whatever pods they find, I assume.

The sponge-coral mucus loop is interesting. I have two Jebao propeller pumps that are on near continuous fast pulse mode, except at night... They continue to jam because of sponges that grow inside the pump against the intake slots. As they swell, they eventually grip the impeller. I have to scrape them out and dump them into the cryptic zone. Those tend be dark sponges - no idea where they came from.

I also have bright yellow sponges that grow on my concrete man made rock. They pop up all over the place. Those may be tunicates though. I have no idea what else is living in my cryptic zone since it's very hard to see in there. It's deep and dark. The acrylic front gets covered up with tiny featherdusters and coralline (that won't grow in my DT). I think the acrylic acts like an optic fiber carrying just a little light down its depth. That small amount of light is what the coralline uses to grow against the plastic in the dark. That makes the cryptic zone even darker, of course.

When I rip it up, I'll have to document my findings.

My corals do produce a tremendous amount of mucus. It's not bad. They expand their polyps and I think they sometimes use it to trap food since the polyps are out while the mucus is blowing. I thought it had to do with my massive surge that creates an intense flowrate against the polyps. I should take a video of that too. It's a little 'violent' but they grow fast in it.

so I have cryptic zone, surge, lots of food, lots of coral, lots of mucus and sponges that pop up wherever there is flow. My biggest pests are featherdusters though. They encroach on all my corals and rocks.

[Fish Keeper82]

I have not read though this entire thread but i have been following for half a year or so, forgive me if this has already been mentioned.
Its been kicked around in the local reef club of trying some technology used over seas using nano micro bubbles to produce a skimming effect in the tank.These nano micro bubbles is thought to be so small that they can get multipe bubbles under contaminants and lift them for skimming which would include Dinos. Micro bubbles would be too big or this to work it would have to be nano bubbles. So bubble size is very important.
This is mainly being used in some aquariums as a trial method to help corals grow by giving them a "cleaning" with these nano bubbles every night while the lights are off. I've read this might remove Dinos and Cyano as well. I came across this link http://www.nabas.us/ that explains how it works in detail and even shows its effects on red tides.
Its been suggested that using a nano bubbler (wooden air stone)in the return section of the tank will get best results since bubbles will be further chopped by the return pump.

Someone mentioned on here a while back (I belive it was DNA but cant remember or find the post)they thought Dinos would not have a chance if they made it inside any decent skimmer well this would turn your whole tank into a skimmer for a few hours a night.
In the link is shows how nano bubbles do not pop but rather disapate so it wont increase salt creep if the bubbles are indeed small enough.
As soon as i can get my hands on a wooden air stone im trying this out.
In my case i would have to do it during peak daylight since my Amphidinium Dinos are only out on the sand during light and retreat into the sand at night.
As mentioned before some people are trying this already for other reasons but it's been suggested to work on Dinos.

Could it really be this simple?
Ideas on low cost nano bubble generators?
Thoughts?

[karimwassef]

I see a lot of theory, but no data.

My skimmer creates a thick cloud of very fine bubbles using very high pressure through a penductor (two of those). The bubbles are not individually visible. The water just turns solid white. As they mix with the reverse flowing dirty water, the bubbles coalesce and eventually (12 ft up) create a thick layer of dark foam and brown liquid.

Some bubbles are so small that they don't rise. They flow with the downward water flow instead and exit the skimmer. They don't pop. They also don't seem to float well. They look more like particulates. In the complete absence of water motion, they will eventually rise.

I'm open to all plausible theories. Just need data.

[nvladik]

Update on the crubber guys... deff still have dynos, but I don't see any on rock/coral, I know they are in the water. Every day when I take out the scrubber I can smell them within seconds.

I modified my Refugium light schedule to be more in sync with tank lights. I figured my UV wasn't working to it's best and lights were on in Refugium at night any I am sure some dyno's were there sticking to macro algae. So now refugium and tank light schedules overlap by 6 hours, and UV gets about 8 hours of total tank darkness.

I have a theory on how to confirm/deny if tank is almost completely dyno free and would love it if someone could confirm my theories. In my tank, Anthelia sp is very unhappy when dynos are present. This was actually my first sign they were back, one of the anthelias I have stopped opening up. Now, it's finally coming back and opening again, which makes me think I might be slowly winning the battle. Can anyone else confirm that?

[taricha]

Update on a few different things I've been looking at.
1. I tried growing dense benthic ciliate cultures in beakers 3 times. Once by published rotifer recipe grew huge uronychia ciliates that can ingest big (dino sized) particles stopped growing after 6 or 7 days then declined, once on pure yeast (a paper said with euplotes they achieved 10/ml to 5000/ml in 6 days on just yeast) mine never got really rolling - hard to estimate right amount of food, one attempt on yeast enriched with skimmate, vitamins etc, never got very far. I guess first one was best. uronychia culture got a liter at about 100-200 per ml. I'll try again later, maybe sooner if I run across any good info for culturing large ciliates on particles instead of bacteria. Some kinds grow well on bacteria and different kinds on larger particles.

2. Have been growing dinos in beakers of sand and tank water with added trace elements. worked well. Got one healthy gallon culture of amphidinium from my tank, got one developing of ostreopsis from robertifly (yay). Should be able to do some experiments on them.

3. Robertifly also sent me some of the Sea Veggies dried seaweed to check for dino connection. Couple people have reported dino blooms coinciding with feeding the stuff. The veggies themselves are clean as expected. No dino cysts. Now to see if I can figure which nutrients in it are fueling growth.
The two species of seaweed are porphyra yezoensis and palmaria palmata.

4. The thin brown dino strings I saw growing from roots of caulerpa, saw the same growing from tips of urchin spines.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160401/a1d2552e9e27cdc420f270a0e90e9c5e.jpg
Under the scope, dinos (ostreopsis)!
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160401/9753121b88233c5221803e2409b841ce.jpg

Which makes me think that they really just grab on to whatever isn't mucous protected (no sign on my softies) that sits in high flow, just like the netting used earlier by nvladik. So I put a strip of filter floss in front of pump yesterday
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160401/da7f4219875ce9d0126aeeb90fb97b68.jpg
Today, quite brown!
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160401/24ef3574aad1ddceb413ab5ee47d445a.jpg
Wrung brown out into a dish
Big ol' Osti party.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160401/038489a6cce11ce440f0df5088fd5b9f.jpg

5. I also pulled the few dinos out of my tank and split into beakers. Mix of small amounts of both amphidinium and ostreopsis The population in my tank is small but stable at the time I pulled it out. One beaker got nothing added, one got iron, one b12. Hoping for dramatic growth in one of the treatments indicating a limitation.

[DNA]

Those and similar, but more elaborate experiments should be funded.
In fact the whole dino problem should have been researched to hell and back years ago.

I'm very interested in what the iron will do.

[nvladik]

Guys I am thinking of joining the experiment party. Any recommendations on a microscope that won't break the bank?

[taricha]

Guys I am thinking of joining the experiment party. Any recommendations on a microscope that won't break the bank?

One like this http://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/low-power-student-microscopes/binocular-dissecting-microscope-20x-40x.html
...is super helpful when looking for something through large amounts of material like several ml of water/substrate. Binocular makes it very 3d. Brain can get much more info out of perspective images with both eyes. I've also ripped it off the base and put it up to the tank glass to watch benthic fauna behavior in the tank as opposed to on a slide.
For most everything else, IDing, cell counts, pictures/video (through phone) something very much like this is my go to. If I only had access to one, this would be it. http://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/high-power-student-microscopes/40x-1000x-advanced-home-school-compound-microscope.html

[tankaddict]

Hi all, been following this thread for quite a long time but have not seen anyone with this particular species of dinoflagellates except for a user on Reef 2 Reef by the name of DeeBee. This particular strain does not exhibit motility. Here are the pictures taken under 40x. They very much look like zooxanthellae. Any help would be appreciated.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p305/drkcloud794/Mobile%20Uploads/image_3.jpeg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p305/drkcloud794/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpeg<a href="http://s131.photobucket.com/user/drkcloud794/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_4.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p305/drkcloud794/Mobile%20Uploads/image_4.jpeg" border="0" alt=" photo image_4.jpeg"/></a>

[taricha]

5. I also pulled the few dinos out of my tank and split into beakers. Mix of small amounts of both amphidinium and ostreopsis The population in my tank is small but stable at the time I pulled it out. One beaker got nothing added, one got iron, one b12. Hoping for dramatic growth in one of the treatments indicating a limitation.

Some results. Interesting, perplexing, and not a slam dunk.
100ml in each beaker, the iron treatment was 2 drops of a solution containing 0.10% Fe edta (and 3% K - but my tank already gets dosed a ton of K so it's definitely not limiting). About 100mcg Fe (3mg K).
The B12 dose was 1/10 by mass of a ground up 1000mcg B12 pill. About 100mcg B12. Placed in bright window.
Remember all these are taken out of my tank which I'm keeping at high N and P (20 and 0.50ppm respectively) so micronutrient effects can be seen.

So after 1 day, there were a ton of bubbles in the B12 treatment indicating increased photosynthesis. No other obvious differences to naked eye. Under scope the cell counts were different but not enough to be sure of anything. After 2 days same story about bubbling. this is what they looked like
Iron
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160402/61f9f88262c12033027aa199d4c108ca.jpg

Control
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160402/5b2fd79b0328b78ab8b41535d44c3ee6.jpg

B12 note bubbles
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160402/dee22a50c423ce58c0dbee8f4e69e715.jpg

I would have assumed massive dino increase in B12 and little change in others from bubbles and sample coloration. But it's a good reminder don't presume what you didn't actually observe.
Cell counts under scope. All beakers got equal mixing, sample sizes, magnification etc. Largest number of dinos in a single 40x field of view for each sample was:

Control: 3 dinos
B12: 28 dinos
Fe: 61 dinos


Make of that data what you will. I'll watch same beakers a couple more days to follow progress, and I started the experiment again to see if results are repeatable.
Here's my take. Control population seems to have decreased in the 48 hours in the beaker. likely division was slower than predation. Probably due to trace element limitation. Matches the small steady population in my tank. Just enough micro nutrients trickle to it to through fish food to keep it a light dusting.
B12 definitely increased photosynthetic output, and also seems to have juiced cell division somewhat.
Fe showed greatest increase in dino numbers, clear response.
If I'm hypothesizing, it seems like the B12 increased photosynthetic metabolism so to speak, but I can't help but feel like this would be short lived and cell division would soon slow unless the Fe limitation shown from the other beaker was addressed.

[taricha]

This particular strain does not exhibit motility. Here are the pictures taken under 40x. They very much look like zooxanthellae. Any help would be appreciated.


All I can add is that the description sounds a lot like...


If your resolution is really poor on your scope, try paying attention to movement instead of shape. If they are spinning around like a tether ball then it is Ostreopsis. If they are scooting along the surface its probably Amphidinium. If they are really really tiny and just sit suspended in mucous with the odd one swimming in circles then its the tiny guy who looks like symbiodinium that I don't have a name for yet.

[mikeatjac]

A week later and still no sign of Dinos. I did add a large UV set up.

[nvladik]

One like this http://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/low-power-student-microscopes/binocular-dissecting-microscope-20x-40x.html
...is super helpful when looking for something through large amounts of material like several ml of water/substrate. Binocular makes it very 3d. Brain can get much more info out of perspective images with both eyes. I've also ripped it off the base and put it up to the tank glass to watch benthic fauna behavior in the tank as opposed to on a slide.
For most everything else, IDing, cell counts, pictures/video (through phone) something very much like this is my go to. If I only had access to one, this would be it. http://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/high-power-student-microscopes/40x-1000x-advanced-home-school-compound-microscope.html

Thanks for the advice. What about something like this: http://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/40x-1000x-dual-light-glass-lens-metal-framework-science-microscope-usb-camera.html

I completely don't mind it going through a computer, plus bigger screen, easy to see, etc.

[taricha]

Thanks for the advice. What about something like this: http://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/40x-1000x-dual-light-glass-lens-metal-framework-science-microscope-usb-camera.html

I completely don't mind it going through a computer, plus bigger screen, easy to see, etc.

The ability to illuminate from above is also very useful. Good choice. I don't mind a digital camera attachment on a scope, just as long as they aren't charging a bunch extra (it looks like they aren't) for an imaging device when smartphone cameras are at least as good and usually better.
Also quality used microscopes likely float around places like ebay in abundance - if someone wanted to save a few more bucks.

A week later and still no sign of Dinos. I did add a large UV set up.

Do you know what kind you had? You said you removed sand. I'm guessing yours were on sand only? Brown dusting on sand or snotty stringy? got pics? Success stories and methods are awesome, but more valuable the more we know about the infestation.

[mikeatjac]

The ability to illuminate from above is also very useful. Good choice. I don't mind a digital camera attachment on a scope, just as long as they aren't charging a bunch extra (it looks like they aren't) for an imaging device when smartphone cameras are at least as good and usually better.
Also quality used microscopes likely float around places like ebay in abundance - if someone wanted to save a few more bucks.



Do you know what kind you had? You said you removed sand. I'm guessing yours were on sand only? Brown dusting on sand or snotty stringy? got pics? Success stories and methods are awesome, but more valuable the more we know about the infestation.

It was everywhere. I had some LR that was just plain Slimmy. Sorry I don't have pictures, never though of that. Don't know what kind I had.

[nvladik]

The ability to illuminate from above is also very useful. Good choice. I don't mind a digital camera attachment on a scope, just as long as they aren't charging a bunch extra (it looks like they aren't) for an imaging device when smartphone cameras are at least as good and usually better.
Also quality used microscopes likely float around places like ebay in abundance - if someone wanted to save a few more bucks.

Curious, how do you take pictures with your phone? Right over the eye-piece?

Another small update on my tank. Diatoms and hair algae are back. Hope that's good news!!!

[joti26]

Thanks for the advice. What about something like this: http://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/40x-1000x-dual-light-glass-lens-metal-framework-science-microscope-usb-camera.html

I completely don't mind it going through a computer, plus bigger screen, easy to see, etc.

Yeah that's the one I have brilliant and much easier on the eyes than squinting through the eyepiece, reckon biologists must end up with one squinty eye! Plus is that you can do all sorts with it, photo's videos and time lapse. Totally hooked on mine!

[joti26]

Curious, how do you take pictures with your phone? Right over the eye-piece?

Another small update on my tank. Diatoms and hair algae are back. Hope that's good news!!!

Yes same here, I thought the dino's were back with avengence as brown patches, air bubbles and even brown stringy bit's. However having taken samples it's not dino's at all but algae, diatoms and these tiny golden round things I have yet to identify. I am still finding one or two dino's but maybe one dino in five or six samples from everything sucked up from the rocks. The dino smell has been gone for around 15 days now as has any sign of dino's on any corals. I am also getting far less of the greyish debris, just syphoned the rocks this evening into the eden 501 and having not cleaned it for four days amazed at how little was in there. Normally syphoning every day with a mass of the grey debris in the cleaner tank. So like you remaining hopeful. Still daren't do a water change mind you.

[karimwassef]

I think a tank without some algae running somewhere (ATS, overflow, etc...) is not really healthy. I think the best path is to feed and evolve from diatoms to green hair to coralline... not to remove nutrients and devolve into dino death...

[taricha]

I think a tank without some algae running somewhere (ATS, overflow, etc...) is not really healthy. I think the best path is to feed and evolve from diatoms to green hair to coralline... not to remove nutrients and devolve into dino death...

Agree. It certainly seems like systems without a broad base of some form of primary producers are an unstable and delicate equilibrium.


I still think that nitrogen fixation was a key to this.. at least in my tank.
I meant to flag this earlier. Interested to hear what you observed that points this way.

One thing I've seen that supports this. When my tank was low N, the dinos always hugged cyano (maybe for their N fix). In the weeks I've been running high N (10-20+ppm) dinos aren't tied to cyano, I have spots with traces of cyano and dino separately.

If I were experimenting in this area, I'd try to go with available P, zero N and a low dose of H202 or chemiclean just enough to kill off cyano. Maybe been tried but I haven't seen if it had.

[Billybatz9]

I am out! I decided to tear my tank down. Did not want to deal with this anymore. 6 months of headaches and absolute eye sores from staring at brown crap all over my tank. No MORE! My biocube was torn down 4 days ago. I bought myself a nice nuvo fusion 30 L and I have my rocks basking in the sun right now (Burn you dino bastards). Then in 2 days, they will burn some more in RO dip for another 4 days. Then dry out again for another few days in the sun. Then going back in my new tank. If I get dinos again after doing all this, then peace out reef people!

[jason2459]

I am out! I decided to tear my tank down. Did not want to deal with this anymore. 6 months of headaches and absolute eye sores from staring at brown crap all over my tank. No MORE! My biocube was torn down 4 days ago. I bought myself a nice nuvo fusion 30 L and I have my rocks basking in the sun right now (Burn you dino bastards). Then in 2 days, they will burn some more in RO dip for another 4 days. Then dry out again for another few days in the sun. Then going back in my new tank. If I get dinos again after doing all this, then peace out reef people!

Personally, I would acid bath and then cured in saltwater and checked for PO4 leaching and treated with lanthanum chloride if so.

[robertifly]

Good news to report on my war with Dino, going over 10 days with no apparent infestation! Things I don't think had much affect are 1. Dino X, 2. H202 dosing separately or together, 3. Lights blackout alone or combined with dosing Dino X or H202. What has seemed to make a real difference is blackout 4 days combined with a strong UV, with adding phytoplankton, more clean-up crew, pods and a ball of cheato in DT. The tank looks good, yesterday I saw a tiny, new (to me) thorny oyster growing on a rock where 3 weeks ago I couldn't even see the rock for the dinos.

[karimwassef]

I am out! I decided to tear my tank down. Did not want to deal with this anymore. 6 months of headaches and absolute eye sores from staring at brown crap all over my tank. No MORE! My biocube was torn down 4 days ago. I bought myself a nice nuvo fusion 30 L and I have my rocks basking in the sun right now (Burn you dino bastards). Then in 2 days, they will burn some more in RO dip for another 4 days. Then dry out again for another few days in the sun. Then going back in my new tank. If I get dinos again after doing all this, then peace out reef people!

what did you try?

[karimwassef]

Good news to report on my war with Dino, going over 10 days with no apparent infestation! Things I don't think had much affect are 1. Dino X, 2. H202 dosing separately or together, 3. Lights blackout alone or combined with dosing Dino X or H202. What has seemed to make a real difference is blackout 4 days combined with a strong UV, with adding phytoplankton, more clean-up crew, pods and a ball of cheato in DT. The tank looks good, yesterday I saw a tiny, new (to me) thorny oyster growing on a rock where 3 weeks ago I couldn't even see the rock for the dinos.

awesome. got pics?

[Billybatz9]

Personally, I would acid bath and then cured in saltwater and checked for PO4 leaching and treated with lanthanum chloride if so.

That seems like a lot of work. I've never acid bath anything in my life. What if I go buy like 4 bottles of h202 and dose all four bottle in a bucket of ro along with my rocks? They are practically dry by now. Rocks are pure white (coraline is dried and dead). Do you really think dinos can still be alive?

[robertifly]

I'll try to get pictures up tonight.

[jason2459]

That seems like a lot of work. I've never acid bath anything in my life. What if I go buy like 4 bottles of h202 and dose all four bottle in a bucket of ro along with my rocks? They are practically dry by now. Rocks are pure white (coraline is dried and dead). Do you really think dinos can still be alive?

Acid bath could be something strong and dangerous like muratic acid and assured to strip off the top layer of everything including your hands if you're not careful.

Or as mild as just using Vinegar. I'd go the vinegar route personally for this situation and let it soak in the acid bath longer as it's a weaker acid.

[bertoni]

Vinegar might work if given long enough and enough is added. I agree that muriatic acid requires careful handling, and work with it should be done outdoors because the fumes are toxic.

Hydrogen peroxide could remove some organics if dosed in a strong form, but that's no safer than muriatic acid. It won't remove copper or phosphate from the rock, not at any reasonable rate.

[Billybatz9]

I am going to put all my rocks (30 lbs) in a 5 gallon bucket. How much vinegar would I need? They sell it by the gallon I believe. How long should the dip be also?

And quick question. Why would I need to acid bath the rocks if they are dried out? Is it really possible that some dinos can survive on rocks that have been dry for a week?

[taricha]

Not to critique an awesome public aquarium facility. The GA aquarium is amazing. Every tank is breathtaking.
Just went there on a school field trip.
Whatcha think? Dinos or no. The color is pure rust brown.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160407/73259259eac0a537904646dddd891205.jpg
It's in the garden eel display, the first tank you see in the tropical diver section.
One of my students, who was with another group asked their tour guide. "Looks like y'all have a dinoflagellate infestation on the sand"
Their group guide (probably a volunteer) answered "no, the brown on the sand is for decoration." :-)


They also have the largest, most awesome public coral display tank I've ever seen. They say its taken 5 years to get to the current 25% coral coverage over the artificial wall.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160407/ce1e40d79d7bcd22ebca742afbe57d65.jpg

[Billybatz9]

Anyone ever try freezing rocks? Seriously. Instead of acid bath and all that crap, why not freeze the rocks in a big freezer. No way dinos survive being in a freezer.Then wash them in plain RO water for a few days to get rid of the dead matter.

[jason2459]

Anyone ever try freezing rocks? Seriously. Instead of acid bath and all that crap, why not freeze the rocks in a big freezer. No way dinos survive being in a freezer.Then wash them in plain RO water for a few days to get rid of the dead matter.

Well, if there's something leaching out of the rocks that's at the surface level that is helping to promote the dino's or other oganisims the dino's are feeding on the acid bath would remove it preventing a future outbreak. Freezing would not. And do we know freezing in a typical freezer would get rid of them?

[karimwassef]

Spores or cysts can survive through most conditions like freezing, fresh water, being completely dry, desiccation, or even baking. I don't know if boiling works either. It depends on the structure of the protective shell and the water content inside.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-one-celled-organis/

It's like a hard shell with a very simple seed hidden away in a molecular form deep inside. It can probably go into space and survive unless it gets hit by high energy particles to destroy the nucleus. Normal UV (like sunlight) won't destroy it either. Higher UV might, but the shell may still provide sufficient protection.

Here's cyano surviving in space on the ISS

http://phys.org/news/2010-08-microbes-survive-year-space.html

and even higher forms

http://morgana249.blogspot.com/2014/08/6-organisms-that-can-survive-travel-in.html

Acid will dissolve the tissue directly, so it literally removes the material it is made from.

Vinegar and H2O2 may not be strong enough though?

[jason2459]

Yeah, I agree the vinegar may not be enough but he was not wanting to go the muriatic acid route which I don't blame him. Using vinegar I would let it soak for at least several days.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[karimwassef]

new word for me - cryptobiosis

Google it. :)