High ammonia during cycle, should I do water change?

[bperau]

Tank has been up for about 10 days. Ammonia went from 2.0 a few days ago to 8.0 maybe higher now (test kit only goes to 8.0). Nitrites went from 0 to 1.0 in the few days, nitrates are still at 0. Should I be concerned with the ammonia?

46 bowfront, 40lbs of live sand, 65lbs of dry rock from reefcleaners, ro water to fill

[jsspallina]

no, let the natural cycle begin.
resist the urge to over think or over work in this hobby.
you want to do water changes to remove nitrates wait for your ammonia and nitrites to go down and your nitrates to peak.
then you are ready to start your water change regiment.

good luck and remember the search tool is your best resource of information.

[bperau]

Alright thanks

[aquaman183]

If you have nothing in it as far as life, just let it sit for like a month and then come back to it if you can, lol.
It sucks waiting, but jss said, just let it do its thing.

[REEF DIVA]

There are live bacteria on the market for sale that will cycle your tank within days, not months. My very favorite is a product called StartSmart Complete Saltwater by TLC. They operate out of Cleveland. Ohio. I have used the product for over 20 years and it has never failed. But I have to give you a caution. I have been told by TLC (the manufacturer) that it is TOO cold to ship the product out right now. The live bacteria can get too cold and die. However when the weather warms up, you may want to consider buying a bottle to keep in on hand for any future problems. This product works so well that you can cycle live rock in one to two days, then safely add fish.

Good luck and I hope that this helps!

[bperau]

Is there anything else on the market that speeds the process up that I can buy?

[m0nkie]

buy more bacteria in a bottle... essentially wasting money

[danrobberg]

I used the Red Sea reef mature kit. It bacteria and the food it needs to cycle the tank faster. I still dose nopox that it came with and it keeps my nitrates at undetectable levels and phosphates at the lowest detectable level.

[Dmorty217]

Startsmart is by far the best live bacteria product available. Good stuff to have

[bperau]

Startsmart is by far the best live bacteria product available. Good stuff to have


Would it be beneficial to me to add it in the tank at this point or just let the tank run its cycle?

[rsain]

Would it be beneficial to me to add it in the tank at this point or just let the tank run its cycle?


Are you in a hurry?

I just don't understand why people just feel like throwing money away. The tank will cycle. Let it. :)

No need to buy a product to help it unless you have a reason (other than hurry up) or have lots of tanks to cycle at once.

Hurrying in this hobby is antithetical to success.

-ryan

[BrokenSpoke]

Are you in a hurry?

I just don't understand why people just feel like throwing money away. The tank will cycle. Let it. :)

No need to buy a product to help it unless you have a reason (other than hurry up) or have lots of tanks to cycle at once.

Hurrying in this hobby is antithetical to success.

-ryan

I have had tanks for many years, all the way back to when it was standard procedure to cycle with a damsel. With my new tank I'm giving the Red Sea Mature Reef kit. When I was watching the BRSTV 52 weeks of reefing I saw they used it for their tank. I'm not using it because I'm in a rush, I'm using it more out of curiosity. Will it be faster, don't know, don't care but if it is that's a bonus. I'm more interested in the long term and whether or not it creates a more stable environment for bacteria. Most likely it will be no more stable than cycling with a piece of shrimp, ghost feeding, or using ammonia but at the work case I'm out $30.

[rsain]

Curiosity is as good of reason as any. :)

I just hate to see people try to rush stuff. It doesn't bode well for long term success.

(Btw - I had the cycling damsels too - lol.)

My other concern is a general desire to push a product for no discernible reason other than that to bilk folks. My opinion: if it ain't broke then don't fix!

-ryan

[bperau]

Of coarse I'm in a hurry, I hate looking at an empty tank lol. But no I'm being patient and waiting it out. I was wasn't sure with my ammonia being so high if it was actually going to cycle or if I need to get the ammonia lower

[m0nkie]

Of coarse I'm in a hurry, I hate looking at an empty tank lol. But no I'm being patient and waiting it out. I was wasn't sure with my ammonia being so high if it was actually going to cycle or if I need to get the ammonia lower

I overdosed Dr Tim's ammonia once and got a reading of 9 or 10ppm.. took a few extra weeks but it got there.

I have read Dr. Tim mention "stalling" of a cycle from too much ammonia, basically shutting down the bacteria.. but I haven't seen anyone with actual problem.. most folks are just too paranoid about it

[bperau]

I overdosed Dr Tim's ammonia once and got a reading of 9 or 10ppm.. took a few extra weeks but it got there.

I have read Dr. Tim mention "stalling" of a cycle from too much ammonia, basically shutting down the bacteria.. but I haven't seen anyone with actual problem.. most folks are just too paranoid about it


I couldn't figure out what the actual reading was since the test kit only goes to 8. I tried doing a does with half the drops but same amount of water but I didn't get a reading.

[bperau]

Alright couple days has gone by, checked again this morning and it seems the ammonia is even higher. It's darker than the test kit so above 8. Temps is at 80, ph seems to have dropped to 7.4, nitrites are still a bright purple (1-2ppm?). Am I still waiting it out or is there a point that the ammonia will just continue to go up and not drop without me doing something?

[A.Astore]

When I was curing my rocks the levels were WELL above the chart to the point there was no waiting for the reading. They came down as the nitrites went up and again made it well past the readable on that test as well. It eventually came down on its own without me doing anything. I didn't have anything running in that water other than a heater and powerhead for circulation (I know some people run their skimmer when curing rock). You may cause the cycle to stall by doing a water change so I would not even consider that. Adding more bacteria might be helpful if you already have it but I don't know that I would go buy it at this point. Looking at an empty tank is hard. You should have heard my kids!

[bperau]

When I was curing my rocks the levels were WELL above the chart to the point there was no waiting for the reading. They came down as the nitrites went up and again made it well past the readable on that test as well. It eventually came down on its own without me doing anything. I didn't have anything running in that water other than a heater and powerhead for circulation (I know some people run their skimmer when curing rock). You may cause the cycle to stall by doing a water change so I would not even consider that. Adding more bacteria might be helpful if you already have it but I don't know that I would go buy it at this point. Looking at an empty tank is hard. You should have heard my kids!


I'll continue to wait, I would of thought the extremely high ammonia would stall the cycle longer than doing a small water change

[mikeatjac]

Best thing I have seen to jump start a tank that based on dry live rock is adding a small piece of live rock.

[laga77]

I recently cycled a 120G tank in 12 days using dry rock and gravel. Total cost of ammonia and bacteria was $28. I moved fish from another tank into the new one at 14 days. There is no reason or benefit to stare at an empty tank waiting for bacteria to grow for any longer than necessary.

[bperau]

I recently cycled a 120G tank in 12 days using dry rock and gravel. Total cost of ammonia and bacteria was $28. I moved fish from another tank into the new one at 14 days. There is no reason or benefit to stare at an empty tank waiting for bacteria to grow for any longer than necessary.



Since I got the ammonia part haha, do you recommend a bacteria I can add to start to overtake the ammonia?

[laga77]

Dr Tim's One and Only or Bio-Spira. Both have worked for me in the past. Also, do a search on this site for " my 12 day cycle". I listed the time line of the cycle. Good Luck.

[bperau]

Dr Tim's One and Only or Bio-Spira. Both have worked for me in the past. Also, do a search on this site for " my 12 day cycle". I listed the time line of the cycle. Good Luck.


Thank you, I checked out dr tims, do they overnight that to you so it remains good? Also would I just add it right to the tank or do a small water change to get the ammonia down? It's above 8, all my test it goes to so I can give a definite number

[laga77]

Actually, the bottle of Dr Tim`s that I used sat in my freezer, per instructions, for two months after I used part of it to cycle my Seahorse tank. I do not think it will make much of a difference if you WC or not. If you leave the ammonia in the tank it will just produce more nitrate at the end of the cycle. You can do the WC then.

[m0nkie]

Thank you, I checked out dr tims, do they overnight that to you so it remains good? Also would I just add it right to the tank or do a small water change to get the ammonia down? It's above 8, all my test it goes to so I can give a definite number

I didn't realize you never dosed bacteria.. without dosing the initial bacteria boost, those ammonia will take forever. Dr Tims and Bio Spira has worked for me. I started over 5 100gal tanks with them.

usually the cycle is around 20 days top.. the time I over dosed ammonia it took a month.

[bperau]

I didn't realize you never dosed bacteria.. without dosing the initial bacteria boost, those ammonia will take forever. Dr Tims and Bio Spira has worked for me. I started over 5 100gal tanks with them.

usually the cycle is around 20 days top.. the time I over dosed ammonia it took a month.

Yeah I set the tank up with 40lbs live sand, 65lbs dry rock and fed a tiny bit of flakes for a few days. Soon as my test kit came in and I saw the ammonia keep raising I stopped feeding and just waited. Just keeps going up. Only good thing Iv seen is the nitrites go from 0 to 1 or 2

[REEF DIVA]

I don't know if anyone out there really understands but we are way past the time when we need to cycle a tank for 8 weeks before we can add fish anymore. It is not about being patient. It is about pure science and fulling understanding the nitrate cycle. I have been doing this for 40 years and this is why I don't like getting on these posts so much. Why does it have to turn into an argument? I really want to help people out. I do this for a living. And yes you can have fun watching the ammonia rise, peak and then crash after you have tested your tank a bunch of times. But you don't have to anymore. Maybe anyone that is a disbeliever can call TLC and talk to them. They can explain it a lot better than I can. All I know is that SmartStart really works every time as long as you get a healthy bottle. And it can stay alive in the refrigerator for a long time. So why would anyone wait 6 to 8 weeks to cycle their aquarium?

[REEF DIVA]

One more thing I forgot to add. When you are cycling a tank, old school, you never want to do a water change (large or small). You want the ammonia to peak as fast as you can so that the bacteria in the live rock will grow at an accelerated rate. If you keep knocking down the level of ammonia, you are only stalling the process. Then it will take even longer to complete its cycle. Remember the cycle is ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. Let the ammonia rise and fall on its own. The nitrite will follow. Nitrate is what is left over at the end of the cycle. Then you can do your water change to remove residual nitrate that remains at the end of the cycle if you feel it necessary. Good luck!

[laga77]

The 6-8 week cycle is just another "zombie myth", a myth that just won't die, that persists in this hobby. The most persistent is that garlic treats marine parasites. I am working on a list of these to post one day.

[bperau]

One more thing I forgot to add. When you are cycling a tank, old school, you never want to do a water change (large or small). You want the ammonia to peak as fast as you can so that the bacteria in the live rock will grow at an accelerated rate. If you keep knocking down the level of ammonia, you are only stalling the process. Then it will take even longer to complete its cycle. Remember the cycle is ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. Let the ammonia rise and fall on its own. The nitrite will follow. Nitrate is what is left over at the end of the cycle. Then you can do your water change to remove residual nitrate that remains at the end of the cycle if you feel it necessary. Good luck!

Is it worth trying anything at this point or should I let it run its cycle? My nitrites this morning were bright purple on my api kit so it's raising now and my ammonia is still above 8

[REEF DIVA]

At this point you might as well wait until it cycles itself. I am going to get really crazy right now. If you are NOT taking any medications or foreign substances, you can use your own urine to stimulate the nitrogen cycle. I don't know how many fish you are cycling with but we don't even need fish to cycle a tank old school. Just regular doses of good clean urine just like the fish are doing. The cool part is that you don't end up with fish you wish you hadn't bought in the first place. And you don't stress them out with high ammonia levels. Think about it. All we are doing is using the urine and feces from the fish to cycle the tank.
I happen to know some clam growers who enhance the growth of their clams by adding human urine because clams uptake ammonia. Clams are not good for cycling tanks though!!! Ammonia might be too high!

[bperau]

[QUOTE=REEF DIVA;24262551]At this point you might as well wait until it cycles itself. I am going to get really crazy right now. If you are NOT taking any medications or foreign substances, you can use your own urine to stimulate the nitrogen cycle. I don't know how many fish you are cycling with but we don't even need fish to cycle a tank old school. Just regular doses of good clean urine just like the fish are doing. The cool part is that you don't end up with fish you wish you hadn't bought in the first place. And you don't stress them out with high ammonia levels. Think about it. All we are doing is using the urine and feces from the fish to cycle the tank.
I happen to know some clam growers who enhance the growth of their clams by adding human urine because clams uptake ammonia. Clams are not good for cycling tanks though!!! Ammonia might be too high![/QUOTE

No fish, just started the tank 2 weeks ago with 40 lbs of live sand and 65 lbs of dry rock. Used ro water and dropped in flakes for a couple days until my test kit showed up. When I noticed the tank go up past 8ppm of ammonia I stepped back and have been waiting. Nitrites show to be what I think is 5 ppm (bright purple on api kit).

[REEF DIVA]

Now I understand better what you are trying to do. You are depending upon the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter bacteria to develop from the live sand, not from live rock as most people do it. The live sand has the necessary sources of both bacterias. I think it would help if you stir the sand occasionally to facilitate the process since the water can only pass over the sand. Since you don't have any fish you might as well add some clean human urine. I don't remember how big the tank is. Just use good common sense. Add a few ounces and test the tank in a few days. It won't hurt the tank at all.

By the way this IS the exact scenario for using the SmartStart Saltwater Bacteria. That is what it was made for. Jump starting dead rock! None of the other bacterias on the market even compare to this product. Good luck!

[bperau]

Now I understand better what you are trying to do. You are depending upon the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter bacteria to develop from the live sand, not from live rock as most people do it. The live sand has the necessary sources of both bacterias. I think it would help if you stir the sand occasionally to facilitate the process since the water can only pass over the sand. Since you don't have any fish you might as well add some clean human urine. I don't remember how big the tank is. Just use good common sense. Add a few ounces and test the tank in a few days. It won't hurt the tank at all.

By the way this IS the exact scenario for using the SmartStart Saltwater Bacteria. That is what it was made for. Jump starting dead rock! None of the other bacterias on the market even compare to this product. Good luck!

Understand, i get the adding urine to the tank but wouldn't that add ammonia? I clearly have plenty ammonia in the tank and wouldn't want it to go any higher

[aquaman183]

Don't go peeing in your tank, at this point, just wait, lol.

[aquaman183]

http://www.amazon.com/Instant-Ocean-77963-BIO-Spira-3-38-Ounce/dp/B002AK47JS?th=0

Could do that, or just wait, the numbers will go down on their own.

[bperau]

I'll just keep waiting haha

[REEF DIVA]

Then just stir the live sand bed and wait and see. Can you get ANY live rock? Even a piece from a friend? Out of curiosity, who told you to use live sand and no live rock or was that your choice? And where did you get the live sand?

[Aframomum]

Do you have a fish selection or list made yet? If so, this is the perfect time to get your fish into your quarantine tank - by the time your tank is cycled your fish should be done with quarantine and be ready for the main display tank.

[bperau]

Then just stir the live sand bed and wait and see. Can you get ANY live rock? Even a piece from a friend? Out of curiosity, who told you to use live sand and no live rock or was that your choice? And where did you get the live sand?

Live sand was included with the tank I bought so I figured might as well use it. Wanted to save money and have control of what enters my tank so I chose dry rock from reefcleaners.

[bperau]

Do you have a fish selection or list made yet? If so, this is the perfect time to get your fish into your quarantine tank - by the time your tank is cycled your fish should be done with quarantine and be ready for the main display tank.

Never used a qt in the past and have never experienced an issue. Only other tank I have running is a small one I put all the live rock in from the bigger tank I bought. I didn't want to use stuff out of an established tank in fear that something would transfer I didn't want to have transferred. So if I put the fish in it I would be adding them to a 26gal with a blue damsel that's already been in there and would probably turn out bad. Only reason the tank is up is to sell the rock as "cured live rock" and eventually sell the tank with a couple pieces of rock and a fish as a "complete salt water tank"

[bperau]

Update:

Ammonia has dropped to about 3ppm from above 8ppm all in the matter of 12 hours. Nitrites are above 5ppm (far as my kit goes) and nitrates are 10ppm. Seems as though today was a big improvement

[bperau]

Ammonia is officially gone. Nitrites are high, turn purple in the Api test kit before I even shake it up. Do I bother with nitrates or won't it matter how high they get since I'll be doing a water change as soon as the nitrites drop?

[headnic789]

You cycled it without rock?

[jsspallina]

You are doing great, you'll be a very successful reefer.

[REEF DIVA]

You don't need to do a water change until you finish the cycle when the nitrite level drops down. Even then, no water change unless the nitrates are high.

[bperau]

You cycled it without rock?


Have 65lbs of dry rock that I started with

[bperau]

You are doing great, you'll be a very successful reefer.


Much different than starting with an established tank. Always wanted to try it from scratch but never thought I would be with impatient