How to avoid Phytoplankton crashes

[melev]

Any thoughts or suggestions? I can't believe how many cultures have gone down in flames in the past year. It is very frustrating. I took my last disc and started a batch on Monday night. Over the next couple of days it got nice and green. On Saturday, it was ruined!

Salinity 1.019
1 ml Micro Algae Grow
Nanoclorupsus disk
Temp stable at 79F to 80F
Lighting 16 hours a day
Gentle bubbling of air via rigid tubing in a 2-liter bottle.

[lego]

A related question: My rigid tubing seems to clog up with sediment (so that very little air comes out it), any easy ways to unclog it - how does everyone else deal with this?

[melev]

Soaking the tubing in vinegar water cleans them up nicely.

[FMarini]

Marc-
I'm not anthony so I'll keep my answer brief.
sorry to hear all your cultures are crashing, but phyto is relatively simple, in that they require, proper water, light and food, the reason they crash is becuz one of those needs are unmet. If the culture is reaching a good green coloration then crashing the next morning, then you might want to look at contanimation (like ciliates or bacteria), major ph swings in the cultures, or not enuf fertilizer.
can you attribute any of these problems to your culture? are you using unsterilized bottles, airline tubing, or water? what does you crashed cultured look like.

[melev]

It turns clear or opaque, and the bottle ends up with detritus at the base.

I don't sterilize the bottles, but I have rinsed them with hot wate and then even added some white vinegar to rinse them well. That didn't help.

One time I intentionally added 1.5ml of Micro Algae Grow to one bottle but not the rest, and it crashed within 3 days so my guess is that too much fertilizer causes the media to collapse.

I'm using a single 2' 6500K bulb. Perhaps I need two bulbs instead to double the lighting?

[rsman]

Im not anthony either :) what a shock i know :D

about 5 zillion articles have been writen on this subject and im sure you have read at least 1. there is a stickie on the breeders forum, and there are a number of such topics in the breeders forum if you are looking for more information.

also microwaving the full un oculated fertalized bottles does a good job of sterilizing them. run about 7mins for 2 L

[melev]

Guess I'll go check out the breeder's forum.

[manderx]

you can keep some in a small bottle in the fridge for a very long time to keep a backup so you don't need to restart off a starter-disk. i've restarted after a lazy spell with some after 6 months untouched in the back of my fridge. i guess since it's not as concentrated as DT's, it doesn't smother itself when you don't shake it every few days.

i never bother microwaving the water, but i do make sure nothing that has *ever* been in contact with tankwater touches the culture and i've never had a crash.

i'd try turning the bubble rate up. i've seen a few setups that didn't do too well because (in my opinion) there wasn't enough circulation.

[melev]

You know, I've read threads where it said to have one bubble per second, but I think the problem was my bubble rate was too slow in this last batch.

I do have a half bottle left in the fridge that I can try to work with, then I'm totally out. :(

[JB NY]

Marc, I can't believe your still having problems!

Do you mix up culture medium before hand? Do you add the F/2 to the culture medium or directly to the phyto bottles?

Dude, I've been doing this for like two years straight with hardly any crashes. Something's going on there. We'll figure it out.

[melev]

I could line out the entire sordid story, but the bottom line is that I've have had good batches last for weeks and months, and others that crash quickly. If I could figure out what I'm doing when things go wrong, I could stop it.

I've been adding 1 ml F/2 directly to each two-liter bottle, once they've been filled up with 1.019sg water. I have premixed my water at times, and other times mixed it up right when I needed some.

The soda bottles sometimes still smell of the drink that used to be in them. And I talked to one guy today and he told me he always reuses his bottles, where I'm always using new ones with each new split or new batch.

Ironically, I can keep a reef alive, but not the food... :rolleyes:

[Armando]

I also never had a crash except once - the day i decided to refill the bottle with tank water, instead of newly mixed water.

[rsman]

im doing this as i think of all of the nice hints so itll be even more confusing than my normal posts :D

you can use tank water microwave it for even longer and use a little less f/2. using the microwave isnt the only way or even the best way, but its a good average :D

if your insane( :bounce1: ) or just wanna automate the process search for the H2O2 UV reactor thread in umm probibly the chem forum it should still have the pdf attached.

you might wanna make sure your not getting any soda in the mix, make sure the bottles are clean. sugar isnt great for cultures. also make sure you dont use an agressive soap to clean the bottles

you can use very little to start a culture itll grow kinda slow so add a small amount of f/2 2 or 3 times while the bottle matures

as it happens ocasionally try these things make sure you mix your f/2 before each use make sure its significantly seperate from any source of contamination, keep it cool but not frozen and in the dark.

keep your cultures away from your tank.

not sure i have the right person but are you still using a salt bucket or the likes to put your 2l bottles of algae in or something else?

and how many bottles do you culture??
if its less than 3 try more smaller bottles, you can actually get nice 1l bottles that are square doing so allows you to start several a day or 2 apart allowing 1 to crash with no issues. the smaller bottles on a 24" shelf with the light behind it takes up little room.

also do you have an air filter on your supply you should be using a .37 micron (note the less than 1micron that . is really there)

if you stick the cap on tight invert the bottle poke 2 1/4" holes in each umm ?lobe? for lack of a better word stick some cotton/filter floss in 1 and the airline in the other the airline can go into the cap and it creates a nice round bottom and a single air input which has gone thru your .37 micron filter. a cut bottom of another bottle filled with rock will make a nice stand

though many breeders have gone the way of IA or the likes those of us who have not are culturing more than you can imagine and have no leftovers :D and there is still plenty of information dating back to pre IA and the likes.


also when you do it over and over and have good luck often you might need to give us all the nasty story to see if anyone can catch the 1 item.

and just as a reminder
richard.reynolds@usa.net

[JB NY]

Marc, just for giggles do this the next time you culture a batch of phtyo.

Get an recently used and empty 2 gallon container of bleach. Rinse out the container well, a few minutes in warm tap water should be fine. Fill up the container with tap water (unless your water is horrible I get better result with tap than RO/DI). Add a little less than 1/2 cup of salt mix (I try for a SG of around 1.020). Then add 3ml of F/2. Shake the bottle up for about 30 seconds and let is sit at least 24 hours, 48 is better. This is your culture medium.

Use the water from the culture medium the next time you set up some phyto. See if it works. Also set up your bottle with the little piece of cotton as rsman explained. I use one 3/32" hole with a little wedge of cotton in.

When you run the air through the phyto culture, the bubbles should be fast but not fast enough to cause any real bubbling at the top. What I mean by that is, the water at the surface should be turbulent but nothing foamy should be seen.

FWIW, I have better luck starting with live phytoplankton than the disks.

[melev]

Okay, I'll give that a shot. And I've been using RO/DI water like I do for my tanks. Perhaps the water is too pure and the algae ends up starving.


2 more things:

Yesterday, I saw one guy's recipe included a 1/4 tsp of Baking Soda. Never heard of that before!

I have a single bulb lighting the phyto. Should it be a double bulb? See below.

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/0804/rack.jpg

[JB NY]

Not really sure if the two bulbs are needed. I do have them on my setup though.

http://www.cnidarianreef.com/images/misc/DSCN2473.jpg

[melev]

I do appreciate you guys trying to help me out. And to think I was asking Anthony Calfo... he's gotta be swamped with a million questions all things salty!

[Armando]

i only run 1 bulb as well. as far as food, i use 5 drops of the Micro Algae Food (aqua farms) per 2L bottle.

[WmTasker]

Hey there Marc :D It feels wierd trying to help you with one of your problems, since it has been you that has help me so much in the past.

Just my 2 cents. Turn up the air bubbles. Joyce Wilerson in the Clownfish Book suggest keeping the rate at 10-15 bps. Helps circulate and (most important) add CO2 for the phyto to use. If the culture gets to a certain point then craches, then it might just be using more CO2 than the low bubble rate can supply.

Re-use your old bottles. I would just put a capful of bleach and a few cups of warm water in the old bottles. Shake, rinse and sit upside down over night to dry. I would also soak the caps and 12 inch ridge tubing in a bucket of water and bleach. Rinse and dry. I bleach everything to clean in really good. :D Never had a problem, I usually just bleach, rinse and stick it back in the reef.

Hope it works out for you.

Billy

[melev]

Thanks Billy. I can't wait to restart and be successful with my cultures again. If so, I'll update my webpage with the successful combination of methods gleaned from this thread to help others harvest phtyoplankton effortlessly.

[thackray]

Melev,

I don’t know anything about phytoplankton culture but if you want to be precise about the CO2 in the culture bottle you can measure the pH. There is a precise relationship between the dissolved CO2, alkalinity and pH.

Phil Thackray

[rsman]

and im sure boomer will be glad to send you a zip with the tables and formulas to figure it out :D

though it doenst sound to me like a pH or CO2 problem those problems generally reflect slow growth not a crashed culture

[jpfelix]

what is your density reading the day before the crash?

i've found that increasing my bubble rate (usually within 15-20bps) helps. also, i feed my flasks (i love lab "access") every couple of days instead of one large feeding once a week. when i fed once/week i got more crashes. sometimes i think it was starvation, others may have been fertilizer burn.

for lights i have two 24' no bulbs, one on each side at the base of the flasks.

i have also had marginal success in keeping the salinity lower (1.015) if i know i will be neglecting the bottles.

no hard eveidence here, just my experience.

[Dwayne]

Originally posted by lego
A related question: My rigid tubing seems to clog up with sediment (so that very little air comes out it), any easy ways to unclog it - how does everyone else deal with this?

Try cutting the end of the tube at an angle.

FWIW

[melev]

The density meter reads 2cm when I have a good culture. And when I get a crash, you can probably see it way at the bottom of the container.

My guess is that I'm not allowing enough air to percolate my batch, and I'm not using tap water. All this time I've used Ro/Di water as that is almost always already pre-mixed saltwater. After adding a little more water to lower the salinity, I fill the bottles.

I've started one single bottle with a little bit of phyto I still had in the fridge, using some of the suggestions in this thread. I've got cotton in the breather hole (that wasn't easy!), it's bubbling a little more powerfully, and tap water was used.

I've not had a chance to buy the 2g bleach jug, Joe. I'll do that over the weekend so I can get things ready for the next batch (or split).

[JB NY]

The ones used when doing the laundry are fine.

[melev]

But I have these little squat bottles, more like concentrated bleach that aren't even one gallon. That is why I thought I'd seek out the larger jug you suggested.

I do have a really nice 3g container I could use as well; it used to store toner for laser copiers. It is messy to clean them out, but they are HPDE containers.

[rsman]

the best bleach you can get is clorox unscented. i buy it in 5 gal buckets :D

it works nice for phyto cleaning but also for things like fishnets and skimmer collection cups

im still a microwave fan for small batches my nano isnt grown in small batches anymore, but i still keep small batches of other algaes.

[JB NY]

The bleach containers are best to use as they are quite sterile once rinsed out well.

I use generic 2 gallon unsecented bleach jugs.

[charley75]

How do you know when it crashes? Just curious. BTW Marc I've been growing mine with Miracle Grow and it's been working great. I ended up starting my culture from DT's because I got the photoperiod screwed up.
Charley

[melev]

You'd think I'd take a picture of a dead bottle!

[rsman]

eewe miracle grow thats not cool!

the easiest way to see a crash is the bottle goes from green to a murky clear or yellowish tint and the green is on the bottom, when stired it doesnt float instead it kinda slowly settles like kalk in tap water.

[charley75]

There are lots of people using Miracle Grow....do some research...works like a charm. Liquid Miracle Grow all purpose plant food, vitamin B12, and Kent trace elements.
Charley

[Bugger]

I just reailized I was furtilzing way to much. My tetraselmis was clumping. How do you meansure the amount of nutriunts left over in the vessil.

[melev]

Well, disgustingly I have to post that yet another bottle has gone down the same path as previous cultures.

Now keep in mind that I was using some stored phyto from the fridge and not a new sample. It looked great yesterday, and today had lost that green hue and was heading south. :rolleyes:

I started one last bottle today, using the last of my phyto from the fridge, and the bottle was rinsed with hot water and a little bleach. I used the culture media that I made about 4 days ago.

pH in the latest bottle was 8.2 Ambient temp in the room is 79F. The cotton in the vent hole was damp. Bubbling was steady, but not enough to create foam on the surface. Sg 1.019, 3ml of MAG added to 1g of culture media. Tap water was my source water. Salt is Oceanic.

Either I need to split my culture at Day Four, or I have to start with a new batch because this one is worthless.

[Bugger]

Maybe your not rinsing out your bottle properlly?
Glass flask's are much better to work with because you can microwave them.

How do you know when your culture is ready.

what should I measure to figure out nutrient levels in my culture?

I don't want to poision anytheing.

Also micro aglea won't live very long in the fridge.

Maybe your calculations are mixed up.

1 gal = 7.8L

Are there metric L and other kinds of L. ? L = litre.

ARe there metric gal and a different kind of non metric gal?

What is your light cycle.

[melev]

<b>Maybe your not rinsing out your bottle properlly?
Glass flask's are much better to work with because you can microwave them.</b>

After today's rinsing with bleach water, I have no doubt the bottle was as clean as it can get.

<b>How do you know when your culture is ready.</b>

Most state to wait 7 days to split. I'm starting to seriously look at 4 to 5 days.

<b>what should I measure to figure out nutrient levels in my culture?</b>

There is a Organics test by Salifert that might help with this. Of course, if you have excessive nuisance algae in your tank, you've got too many nutrients. As would higher PO4 and NO3 readings indicate.

<b>I don't want to poision anytheing.

Also micro aglea won't live very long in the fridge.</b>

It is usually good for about 4 weeks. It needs to be shaken every day to keep it from smothering the cells.

<b>Maybe your calculations are mixed up.

1 gal = 7.8L

Are there metric L and other kinds of L. ? L = litre.</b>

These calculations are available online for others. Floria Aqua Farms has a book on this topic, and people like Flame*Angel and myself have webpages to help make this process easier. For some reason, I've just lost my knack for growing this stuff, and that is why this thread is here. :(

<b>ARe there metric gal and a different kind of non metric gal?
</b>
No idea.

<b>What is your light cycle.</b>

16 hours on, 8 hours darkness.

[rsman]

after re reading most of the thread, ill respond to some parts later, the advantage of using the microwave is you can take your bottle AND the culture water and sterilize both of those at the same time (do this BEFORE adding fertilizer and inoculant) additionally I did forget to menton (sorry) that when starting a culture like that you do need more fertilizer, generally its best to let the culture start then add the first dose, then another in a day or 2. you can picture the growth chart to look kinda like a table as its rising you dont want too much fertilizer, but cant have too much either, if it runs out the growth stops and the culture stops. a 2nd bulb will help you get better cultures, but not increase the survivability of these.

ok so some ?'s

what brand/type F/2?
how old is it?
how much of the culture did you start with when creating these cultures?
1 gal? are you not using 2l bottles still ??
can you estimate the amount of time it took to crash at all?
how clear is the culture water?
can you test the crashed culture water for nitrate/phosphate?
what are the temps in the area around the culture like highs/lows/swing times ????

[rsman]

ooh yea another reference for you
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/W3732E/w3732e00.htm

[melev]

Originally posted by rsman
after re reading most of the thread, ill respond to some parts later, the advantage of using the microwave is you can take your bottle AND the culture water and sterilize both of those at the same time (do this BEFORE adding fertilizer and inoculant) additionally I did forget to menton (sorry) that when starting a culture like that you do need more fertilizer, generally its best to let the culture start then add the first dose, then another in a day or 2. you can picture the growth chart to look kinda like a table as its rising you dont want too much fertilizer, but cant have too much either, if it runs out the growth stops and the culture stops. a 2nd bulb will help you get better cultures, but not increase the survivability of these.

ok so some ?'s

what brand/type F/2?
how old is it?
how much of the culture did you start with when creating these cultures?
1 gal? are you not using 2l bottles still ??
can you estimate the amount of time it took to crash at all?
how clear is the culture water?
can you test the crashed culture water for nitrate/phosphate?
what are the temps in the area around the culture like highs/lows/swing times ????

The F/2 is Micro Algae Grow from Florida Aqua Farms. I bought it about 2 months ago, and it is stored in a cool area.

The culture media was one gallon of saline water and F/2, and I only made one 2-liter bottle to start a new batch.

The culture media water is clear. The phyto bottle starts of light green, gets darker and then starts to fade around Day 5. When the stuff crashes, it is obvious the next day. That is when I roll my eyes and wish I'd split it sooner.

I tossed the crashed stuff.

The temperature in the room never fluctuates, it is always 79F.

[rsman]

the FAF stuff is fine, the age and storage is good so id say you have either a source issue, contamination issue or a measuring issue or an environment issue

clear is good, well its bad but its good, yellowish is bad, ill assume you cant see anything floating in the clear stuff.

i can never find my temp conversion tables it always takes me forever to figure out where I left them. 79F is the highest you should go. at that temp you probibly are over growing the algae, you could lower the temp a little or change your culture technique :D ill assume that you dont need lots of algae so id just lower the temps to something like 75

[Dag]

I haven't had a crash since washing the containers thoroughly before refilling.

[Joey French]

Man, I have crashed three cultures in the last two months, so I feel your pain, man. I wish I could figure out what the problem is, because I have been extremely anal about doing everything just right.

Hopefully we both can figure it out....

[Dag]

You guys should really try this: I have three bottles. I empty one completely and then wash it with hot tap water. Then I empty one of the remaining two jugs into this freshly washed jug. Now wash this second jug with hot tap water. Now pour back into the second bottle 1/2 of the green water you just poured into the first bottle. I also was having crashes all the time until I started this routine. Since then I have not had a crash.

[WaterKeeper]

Originally posted by melev
You'd think I'd take a picture of a dead bottle!

:lol: Now that will be 142 items identified by pictures. :D

Marc. just a thought. It may be that the RO/DI unit itself may be harboring a bacteria pathogenic to the culture. DI resins are known breeding grounds for bacteria. I'd try boiling it in a glass pot before using it.

I see several people use a microwave to sterilize their culture equipment. That works really well for non-metallic things like bottles and tubing. After cleaning and rinsing let it air dry and zap it in the microwave. On dry materials only about 2-3 minutes is needed.

Oh, by the way; my gallons only hold 3.785 liters of solution but then again I'm weird. :hmm6:

[melev]

Thanks for the suggestions. I've been ignoring my phyto station for the past 10 days, although I bought a bottle of DTs to start a whole new batch.

Using tap water was the general consensus, so would boiling it really be the right idea? Won't I lose some of the nitrate and phosphates commonly found in tap water?

And where the heck is Anthony in this thread? :rolleyes: :)

[Dag]

I always use tap water, and I don't boil it.

[rsman]

microwaveing doesnt require bringing it to a boil, the microwave itself breaks down contaminants faster than the heat, like UV on steroids. might stick away from dt's if its possible its a mix now, it just means more issues. microwaving and boiling wont effect nitrate/phosphates or most other goodies. it just kills things.

[Dag]

You can't use DT as a starter culture. there's lots of threads on this.

[melev]

Well, I need to start with something as I'm totally out, and numerous people have stated they started their cultures with DTs... What's the worst that can happen -- it'll crash? ;)

[Joey French]

I have not tried to start a culture with dts, but I am fairly certain you can start with it, but it will become a monoculture.

How big of a deal is over-fertilizing? Could a few drops extra make that big of a difference?

[rsman]

DTs... What's the worst that can happen -- it'll crash?
yep thatll be the worst thing, the reason I said you might stay away from it, instead of saying you cant, but there is a chance YOU cant :D but might be an equal chance one of the other algaes will take over, and YOU might be able to culture that.

you can buy a running culture from many ppl on RC cheap.

How big of a deal is over-fertilizing? Could a few drops extra make that big of a difference?
generally no, it could cause the culture to grow to fast

[Haggisman14]

This might sound stupid to you that have been culturing for a long time...but how do u keep the temp of the bottles around 78-80 degrees....does having the light close enough to the bottles keep it warm?

I'm thinking of starting my own culture to feed my tank.

Are there visible differences in the "happiness" of your tank when you feed phyto, compared to when you don't. Also does feeding phyto and rotifiers go hand in hand...r rotifiers kinda like pods more or less? Thanx.

Marc

[rsman]

first off most algaes we grow intentionally dont do that well at 78-80F most do best between 70 and 74

as for how to keep them that way, an easy way is to put your bottles in a tank with a heater, but its anoying so adjusting the distance from lights and stuff works good also :D

rotifers are small plantonic inverts they use phyto plankton for food, many corals eat rotifers, phyto also gives food to copepods, amphipods ciliates all of which corals and fish eat

[PrivateJoker64]

I have doubts about using tap water. My house is plumbed with copper pipe, as so many are. Can the copper become an issue in the tank?

[melev]

I would say no.

[PrivateJoker64]

Thanks, Marc. I'm going to give it a try.
Nice website, BTW.

[melev]

Thanks. :)

[nickb]

Randy Holmes-Farley has raised concerns with copper levels in tap water, mainly associated with copper pipe. This article discusses the isuse (about half-way through):

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

[rsman]

that article doesnt really apply to this as much as inverts, the issue is that algaes use copper, whats missing is how much copper can they use vs how much do you have, and how much does your fertilizer have. any more and you get copper in your water, and not enough means unreliable results its one reason to always use specifically prepared fertalizers

[nickb]

Sorry, I misunderstood the original comment. Back to lurking :-)

[PrivateJoker64]

My concern is not the copper killing the phyto, but the copper build-up in the reef tank. After reading that article about the possible higher levels of copper, I think I will stick with using RO-DI water, plus the recommended additions of fertilizer and trace elements. Fingers crossed!

[melev]

I think that RO/DI water lacks the nitrates and such that phyto needs. Keep in mind that I crashed a lot of cultures before using RO/DI, so you might have the same problem.

If you are overly concerned about copper in the water, test your source water. Turn on the faucet, let it run a minute, then use the fresh water instead, rather than water sitting in the pipes for a duration.

[PrivateJoker64]

Yes, the RO-DI does lack everything, but isn't that the reason for adding Kent Trace Elements and fertilizer as you suggested?
Like you, I used to do fine with RO-DI and FAF fertilizer, but then the cultures started crashing, and I gave up in disgust. I'm going to give it another try using Miracle Grow and Kent trace elements as you suggested.
BTW, Phyto Feast is raw sewage, as near as I can tell. Stay away from it!

[PrivateJoker64]

Also, I just tried to sterilize an empty 2-liter bottle in the microwave by putting a little water in it and laying it in the mw on its side with the top off the bottle. I succeded in melting down the bottle. I'm sure it's sterile now, but it's also flat.
LOL

[melev]

:lolspin: I decided to not go that far with sterilization. I've used very hot water, vinegar and water, and even bleach and water. Now what I tend to do is rinse the bottle out well, and leave it open in the garage to dry out until I finally need it. That seems to help even though technically anything could crawl in there. However, there is no smell of the previous beverage in the bottle doing it this way, and my cultures haven't crashed any more.

At our recent meeting, two people asked me to bring them a bottle full. Another member came up to me and stated that his was darker. I joked that mine was much darker, and he suggested we have a competition. It was all in good humor, because neither of us even showed the other their culture. Later, one of the recipients of my culture told me mine was much darker and the other guy had to concede. :D

I'm really not like that, and didn't pursue the competition, but I am glad that I can actually grow this stuff successfully again, finally!

[moumda]

I use the water change water from my tank and boil it making sure it gets to at least 160 deg f. I was culturing with 2 liter pop bottles but have switch to glass wide mouth 1 gallon jars and am having much better luck. Use FAF F2 fertilizer 2 ml per bottle and start new culture with 1/4 gallon from old culture. Glass needs to be cleaned with muric acid every other batch. Date my cultures and never let them go more than 1 week. Have 5 gallons going at once and supply local club with phyto they need ($2 for 16 oz bottle and $8 for 2 liters). Forces me to do water changes in my tank and keeps me in frags at local club meetings.

[WaterKeeper]

About a tablespoonful of bleach in a 2 liter bottle left for about 30 minutes should disinfect the bottle in most cases. Rinse it well and let it dry to make sure it is free of chlorine residuals. Don't use declor on the bottle as it may have bacteria in it if it has been stored for any amount of time.

If doing the microwave trick don't put water in the bottle. Just microwave it for about a minute dry. The micro-organisms you wish to eliminate already have water in their cell structure and it will boil during microwaving and kill them. I think the steam is what melted your bottle as I tried this with a dry bottle and it made it through the process fine.

[PrivateJoker64]

Yeah, I'm sure it was the steam.
I thought it was bad to run your microwave without something in it to absorb the energy. Do you put a cup of water in there with the bottle?

[Kathy55g]

So Mark, what did you do differently that led to your recent success?
Thanks,
Kathy

[melev]

Kathy, when you read this page, look at the section dated 1-20-05 for the new method that works. My cultures have been bubbling for 3 weeks straight, and are long overdue to split. I just haven't done it. I'll do it tonight though. :)

http://www.melevsreef.com/phytoplankton.html

[Kathy55g]

Thanks Mark.

[DrBDC]

Waterkeeper, my gallons only hold 3.78 liters too! I think we're getting ripped off at the pumps!

[WaterKeeper]

I heard they really get ripped off in Canada. The gallons there are only 3.153 liters. :D

[nickb]

Actually, an imperial gallon is larger than a US gallon and works out to about 4.5 liters per gallon.

The US and imperial volume measures are strangely different. According to this web site (http://www.bartleby.com/61/charts/M0182500.html), the 'fl oz' has a different volume in the two systems. In the US system, a fl oz is 29.57 ml while in the imperial system, it is 28.41 ml (i.e. the US fl oz is about 4% larger.). I think most people just ignore this but, for percise measurements, it can become important. Of course, for precise measurement and scientific purposes, we should also use metric measures which have a universal meaning.

More than anyone needs to know :-)

[rsman]

if your going to use the microwave for its best use, its best to fill the 2l bottle 2/3 or more full and put the remaining 1/3 in something else and microwave them both, for between 7 and 10 minutes and then add your fertilizer after it cools (dont heat fertilizer).

[Drewpy]

A couple questions? What are the concerns with adding fertilizer to a reef tank (it is in with the phytoplantkon...)???

this thread from Dr. Ron raised my concern:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=589761


Also-- for those looking for a nice sanitizer other then bleach or microwaving... I use this for brewing beer and cleaning my fermenters. It is effective and requires no rinsing.

http://pivo.northernbrewer.com/nbstore/action/search-do?searchTerm=one+step

For cleaning you can use this but it needs to be rinsed--- much safer then bleach though. Powdered Brewery Wash...
http://www.northernbrewer.com/sanitizers.html

[Drewpy]

also to avoid air pump contamination--- cause of crashes?

Try this cheap micron filter, i use it to airate cooled beer wort before fermenting.

SCROLL DOWN AND FIND: "In-Line Sanitary Filter"-- like 5 bucks
http://www.northernbrewer.com/chilling-etc.html

[PrivateJoker64]

Well, I've been trying the suggested method that seems to work for everyone else.
I bought some glass beakers to use, since glass is easy to clean, and microwave safe.
The first culture I started with this method is still alive, going strong. All the secondary cultures have crashed inside of 24 hours. No idea why.
I have microwaved the culture water in the beakers, boiling it this way for seven minutes. Let it cool, aerate for a day, add the fertilizer and trace elements, add the phyto, and within a day, it crashes. All the phyto settles to the bottom, regardless of the rapid aeration.
Next I boiled the culture water on the stovetop for ten minutes. Went through the same process, and still it crashed within a day.
Through all this, the original culture is chugging along. I add boiled makeup water to it daily to replace evaporation.
My conclusion - there is NO WAY that a living organism is causing the crashes. It has to be something else. Could it be that i have residual bleach in the beakers even after all the rinsing and drying I do?I'd be pulling my hair out if I had enough to pull.

[melev]

This is why I decided to go with Recipe II. ;)

The water doesn't need to be purified, btw. Tap water is just fine for this situation, because it contains nitrate, phosphate, and god-knows what else. The TDS of my tap water is 177.

In case you want to see both recipes, here they are. However, if you want to debate Recipe II, please go back through the thread and read my comments so I don't have to repost them.

http://www.melevsreef.com/phytoplankton.html

[PrivateJoker64]

Yup, recipe two is what I am using. The crash always occurs right away. I am thinking it has to be bleach residue. I didn't clean the first batch beaker with bleach.
The last post above was written during a minute of total frustration after coming home from work to find another crashed culture.
One more try!

[Bugger]

Well after reading your post I forgot what I was gonna ask.
Ummm PrivateJoker64 You might have a dead culture to begin with, or maybe your not filtering the air before it enters the media.
Okey What should I use to keep the fertilizer at PH 3 - 4. This will keep it safe from containanation.

[PrivateJoker64]

Nope, I am using an existing live culture in another beaker as the starter. I am also uing the filter described in an above post for beermaking.

[Bugger]

do those centerfuge tubes seperate the fluid. were do you buy those

[DaveAngie79]

getting ready to start my own culture thanks alot for all the info

[DJ88©]

[moved]

[aquaorange]

Thank you all for the useful discussion and information!

I started my own culture 7 days ago using Mark's Recipe II. Since DTs is so expensive I started with the 1/2 L bottle of DTs and cured it in a 1L plastic soda bottle. I used 1/2 the measurments in the recipe and it seems to have worked.

I couldn't find the Miracle-Gro "Liquid" All Purpose Plant Food so I am using the Miracle-Gro "Water Soluble" All Purpose Plant Food. The water soluble fertilizer has slightly higher concentrations and indicates a slight concentration of water soluble copper (0.07%). It is possible that the liquid formula contains copper but isn't listed on the bottle.

Today I poured the 1L culture into a 2L plastic soda container and added the full quantities listed in Recipe II. If all goes well I will continue to split the culture using 2L plastic containers.

I am hesitant in using bleach to clean the containers b/c of the potential for trace residual in the bottles. Instead I rinse the bottles with hot water and use an anti-bacterial dish soap.

Questions:
1. Any thoughts on using a small plastic air diffuser to increase air surface area?

2. Mark, I saw a link to a Microalgae Density Stick Calibration Table... Can you buy the density stick online or possibly make one at home?

3. What are the concerns with using DTs to start the culture?

[melev]

I bought the density stick from Florida Aqua Farms, an online vendor.

I don't see the need for an airstone at all. When I split the cultures, I'll use a new toothpick to clean out the end of the rigid tubing to remove the algae within it that is obstructing the hole.

I just split my batch a week ago, and today it looks ready to split again. The nice thing is that it doesn't crash if I leave it unattended for three weeks or longer. I do shake or twist the bottles once a day to get the stuff in the base of the bottle's feet back into suspension.

There's no reason to worry about using DT's Live Phytoplankton to start your cultures.

[WaterKeeper]

I agree on not needing an airstone for algae culture Marc. Oxygen is not a problem for plants so air flow is only to keep things stirred.

As to using bleach for sanitizing culture ware. I think it is much better than using dishwashing detergents which often contain a quaternary ammonia antibacterial agent. It can be hard to rinse off. Bleach on the other hand leaves almost no residue and, especially if allowed to air dry after rinsing, should not impede culture growth.

[aquaorange]

Since my last post I have successfully cultured enough phytoplankton to use in my tank as well as provide excess to some friends.

I'm concerned that my phytoplankton may contain excess nutrients. I'd like to reduce the chance for 'bacteria blooms' in my tank by monitoring the nutrient levels of my plankton. An earlier response in this thread recommends an organic test kit, PO4 and NO3 monitoring. Can anyone expand on how they monitor/remove excess nutrients? Thanks.

[Bill Wann]

Ive been running the same culture for 2 months now , I use a contiuious method where there is alwasy phyto be doese to the tank and then tank water replacing the water in the phyto reactor .
Everythis is diy and ans been running great for 2 months on the same culture . If anyones intested i will post pics and more info .

[mcintosh]

Definitely interested in a continuous "drip" method let us know more! :)

[salty joe]

Yeah, pics & details.

[barleychown]

Another request of pics + details.

[ictoagsnstii]

can a uvb light be used with this?

[melev]

I don't see how that would be a benefit. Any light is fine, even common shop lights. One guy in our club has those small $7 fluorescents that mount under the kitchen cabinets that light up the countertops. He mounted four of them inside an icechest to light the phyto from four sides, and is growing 2g at a time in a huge jug like I do. He says it grows so much faster now.

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/06/03/2g_phyto_0319.jpg

[billsreef]

UVB isn't used for photosynthesis, so it won't matter. Like Marc says, common shoplights will work fine. That said I like using the phillips daylight bulbs as they produce more lux than the common cool whites.

[ictoagsnstii]

when "brewing" new phyto, can the whole process be in a refrigerator?

[billsreef]

Depends on the temperature requirements of the particular phyto. Most of the ones commonly in use do best from the mid 60's to the mid 70's.

[Chad Vossen]

i have never had a culture crash... iv had them contaminated with rotifers and suddenly have billions of rotifers... and guess what? the rotifers died out and my phytoplankton came back.
i use the 2-3 gal tubs that i get from sams club (cheese puffs) and grow the phyto in a greenhouse. i have agressive bubbling and have not split my current culture in the last 4 months. it is really dense, and i often add tons of brine shrimp to grow up and feed my fish with. i use tank water without treating it in any way, im just to cheap to use new salt water. for me, when the sides of the container are covered in turf algae, i just syphon the phyto into a steril tub and bleach the dirty one. the last time i did this, i had thousands of pods and lots of adult brine shrimp which i dumped into my reef (all my fish had big bellys).

here is a picture of my tub, next month ill start 4 cultures along with rotifers. http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/phytoculture.jpg
and to give an idea how thick it is.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/greenwaterside.jpg

[rayjay]

I have tried to start cultures from discs from FAF and failed each time, but left the bottles running and ended up with a green algae eventually starting, even though the disc was iso in one case.
I bought some live nannochloropsis, used that as a starter, and the same thing happened with that starter as well.
This live nanno I added an equal qty of sterilized water to and added the F2 and put it under lights. The culture faded and turned a little "whitish" and then started to green up again.
It went very dark in color but the color has a blue tint to it, unlike the original nanno concentrate before and after dilution.
This same blue tinted green algae is what has grown from the FAF discs I purchased, 1 nannochloropsis, 1 iso, and another motile one I forget the name of just at the moment.
Whatever it is, it grows well, and I have many 26g Rubbermaid containers of it growing, each under a 75 watt GE spot light.
Maybe someone knows what kind of algae is likely to grow in a container after the original culture crashes.

[miska]

There is a metod to sterilise the fito from bacteria and ciliates: double the sea salt for 2 days than dilute to the normal level and keep sterile .this is described at : www.plancton-shop.de

[rayjay]

All the culture discs I used from Florida Aqua Farms are sterile but it still didn't work for me.
Also, your link doesn't work for me either.

[GreshamH]

Seeing how phyto was spelt (fito) I assumed the URL was wrong, here's the right one:

http://www.plankton-shop.de/

[melev]

For our german friends...http://www.plankton-shop.de/assets/own/Planktonkulturanleitung.pdf

[joanxavier]

Hola a todos
No me expreso bien en inglés, pero si comprendo lo que se escribe. Agradeceria que alguien traduciera mi escrito.
Os muestro unas imagenes de mi visita a una empresa para la producción industrial de fitoplancton, situada en Cadiz (España)

La producción empieza con unas cepas selecionadas de la especie que se va a cultivar. En este caso concreto se trata de Nannochloropsis gaditana.
En esta foto podeis ver los inóculos para el cultivo
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d56/joanxavier/easyalgae2.jpg
Estos cilindros son inoculados con las cepas. Podeis observar el color verde claro que indica una baja concentración de fitoplancton
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d56/joanxavier/easyalgae3.jpg
Después de 7 dias aproximadamente, llegan a su máxima concentración. Se aprecia claramente el color verde oscuro de los cilindros.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d56/joanxavier/easyalgae4.jpg
Con los cilindros al máximo de concentración, se inoculan los biorreactores de 6000 litros de capacidad
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d56/joanxavier/biorreactores.jpg
Una semana más tarde el cultivo está completado, y listo para su comercialización.

Os explico algunos detalles para la producción de fitoplancton, que son muy interesantes para tener exito en el cultivo.
La iluminación del cultivo se realiza con tubos fluorescentes Sylvania Aquastar 10000 ºK. El fotoperiodo es de 24 h.
El fertilizante es producido por ellos, en base a una formuacion tipo Medio Walne. Se utiliza 1 ml. diario de fertilizante para 1L. de cultivo.
Los cultivos se suelen perder al llegar a su máxima concentración. Esto es provocado por el Co2, que causa una dramatica caida del PH.
Para la esterilización de los recipientes, se utiliza una mezcla de hipoclorito sodico y agua (150 ml hipoclorito / 850 ml. de agua). Esta mezcla se deja actuar durante 24 h.
Despues se enjuaga con agua
Se llenan otra vez los recipientes con una mezcla de acido clorhidrico de uso domestico (100 ml acido/ 900 ml de agua). Esta mezcla de deja actuar durante 6 h. para neutralizar cualquier resto de hipoclorito.
Se vuelve a enjuagar con agua, y ya está listo para ser usado.

Os muestro unas fotos de mi biorreactor DIY para fitoplancton y rotÃ*feros. Los cilindros más cortos son para el cultivo de rotÃ*fero, el más alto, para fitoplancton.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d56/joanxavier/frente.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d56/joanxavier/lat.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d56/joanxavier/trasera.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d56/joanxavier/arriba.jpg

Feliz Navidad:)

[antonsemrad]

darnit
ok, I want to know what he said.
I wish I could speak/read spanish.

[melev]

Oh man, that is awesome. I know some Spanish so I have some idea of what was discussed, but it just made me want a wall of phytoplankton growing in my living room just for the mad scientist look. :D

I'll see if I can round up a spanish speaking TRC member to translate.

[saltwaterfishlover]

Google translation

Hello to all I do not express myself well in English, but I include/understand what it is written. Agradeceria that somebody traduciera my writing. I show images to you of my visit a company for the industrial production of phytoplankton, located in Cadiz (Spain) The production begins with selecionadas stocks of the species that is going away to cultivate. In this tactical mission one is gaditana Nannochloropsis. In this photo podeis to see the inóculos for the culture

These cylinders are inoculated with the stocks. Podeis to observe clear the green color that it indicates a low concentration of phytoplankton

After 7 days approximately, they arrive at its Maxima concentration. The dark green color of the cylinders is appraised clearly.

With the concentration cylinders to the maximum, the biorreactores of 6000 liters of capacity inoculate

One week later the culture is completed, and ready for its commercialization. I explain some details to you for the phytoplankton production, that are very interesting to be successful in the culture. The illumination of the culture is made with fluorescent tubes Sylvania Aquastar 10000 ºK. Fotoperiodo is of 24 h. The fertilizer is produced by them, on the basis of one formuacion type Average Walne. 1 mililiter daily of fertilizer for 1L is used. of culture. The cultures usually lose when arriving at their Maxima concentration. This is caused by the CO2, that causes a dramatic fall of the PH. For the sterilization of the containers, it is used a mixture of sodico hipoclorito and water (150 850 hipoclorito mililiter/mililiter of water). This mixture is let act during 24 h. Later it is rinsed with water They again fill to the containers with a hydrochlorate acid mixture of use domestic servant (100 acid mililiter 900 mililiter of water). This mixture of lets act during 6 h. in order to neutralize any rest of hipoclorito. One becomes to rinse with water, and he is already ready to be used. I show to photos of my biorreactor DIY for phytoplankton and rotifers to you. The shortest cylinders are for the rotifer culture, upper, for phytoplankton.

Merry Christmas

[saltwaterfishlover]

http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en

[WaterKeeper]

Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that Joan didn't have that setup in her kitchen. :D

[syntax357]

Hello everyone! I just thought I would add my comments. melev
I use your website http://www.melevsreef.com/phytoplankton.html
to culture my phyto. I purchased a small bottle from ebay and I have had it growing since late summer. I had 1 bottle crash and that was my fault for not cleaning the bottle very well. I also use miracle grow in mine and have not had a problem yet. I am sorry that you are having trouble growing phyto, but you site has helped my so much and by the way I run my bubbles full open and still it gets dark green

[melev]

Syntax, when I started this thread, it was a long time ago. I've been growing it quite well for the past year now, as is listed on the page you linked. Thanks for taking the time to include your experience.

[acroman]

sorry to jump in late, but i use bleach to sterilize the water and container. i put 10 ml bleach in a 5 gallon carboy, and let it sit for 24 hours. then i add 2.5ml sodium thio and air to remove the chlorine. 24 hours later, i add the f/2 media and inoculate. as long as the air is filtered, and there is a plug to prevent bacteria/rotifers from entering the culture container, the culture should be able to be kept wihout crashing for months.

[rayjay]

I guess you could say my air is not filtered.

http://www.angelfire.com/ab/rayjay/eF4.jpg

[jpitts101]

what are the brown phyto's/phyto? i have some nano that has been going for a few months now and decided to try the DT's to try to get a different strain. well its brown, its not crashed its just a brown strain. anyone know what kind it is? i have continued to culture it and its doing great but i would like to know what strain it is? any help would be great, thanks in advance!

[acroman]

its prolly chaetoceros, but without looking at it under a scope, theres no way to tell for sure.

[ShadowViper]

Question?
Melev when you say your bubbling your phyto, from your site, is that with just standard air or CO2.
If anyone has any feedback with pro's/con's of CO2 vs just air bubbling please feel free to speak up.

[melev]

It is just air.

[ShadowViper]

Ty for a fast responce melev.

[acroman]

you only need CO2 if your culture is extremely dense, or the container is very large (commercial or research). otherwise plain air is much easier.

[WaterKeeper]

There is plenty of CO₂ in the air to provide the carbon that phytoplankton needs. Increasing the level may help some but I would doubt it provides major benefits.

[jpitts101]

how fast can you split a culture? i've been going 10 days but it looks to be at its greenest at 5? im cultureing nannochlorpsis. thanks in advance

[billsreef]

You can usually split a culture around 5 days ;)

[melev]

If you have a density meter (it is a measuring stick made of plastic the is graduated with centimeter markings, it should read 2cm. At that point, it is ready to split.

[Malifluous]

IME , 70% rubbing alcohol works best to sterilize the containers. Just put about 1/2 cup into your container and shake it up many times. You can pour out the alcohol and allow it to dry (dries fast) or you can just add the medium and any residual rubbing alcohol wil not harm anything. It is alao important to have a spray bottle of rubbing alcohol. Before opening or closing the container spray alchol around the cap or opening. This wil prevent any bacteria on the cap from getng inside your culture. Filtering the air is also helpful.
The bubbles should be enough so that the surface looks like a gentle boil. If there is foam early on in the culture the bubbles are to high. Foam may oocur in the later stages of the culture regardless of bubble size . This foam is caused by cell debris left over from cell divison. The main reason to have adequate airflow is because when u have all those cells photosynthesizing the oxygen levels in the water can reach over 100
% saturation. Oxygen will poison photosynthesis and can result in a crash or poor growth. This is especially true for culture vessels that do not ahve a large enough air space in the container. The only way to rid the culture of exceess O2 is to just blow it out with good air flow. For really dense cultures it is necessary to add CO2 to keep the pH from getting to high and it also make s a good clean carbon source for the algal cells. Adding buffers to the medium may help resist changes in pH from photosynthesis.

ANother reason cultures could crash s if the inoculation density is too low or if the lights are too bright and the algal cells get bleached. Inoculation density should be about 1:5 ...........1 (ml of algal cells) :5 (ml media) . It Best to increase the amount of light as the density of cells increase . Or put shae cloth around the culture vessel in the first few days until some growth has been observed. The cells will shade each other as the density increases.


My 2 cents, hope it helps

[LLUSA]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8976058#post8976058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by acroman
its prolly chaetoceros, but without looking at it under a scope, theres no way to tell for sure.

Chaetoceros has a particularly strong smell. Is your brown culture smelly?

Ed

[jpitts101]

it dont smell anymore than my nanno, i thought by useing DT's i wuold get the dominant strain out of that? i didnt see chaetoceros as one of the strains in DT's? i do nannochlorpsus, tetraselmis and the DT's that i dont know the strain but its my only brown strain.

[ictoagsnstii]

Ok, i tried to grow phyto from DT's, but failed miserably. I am beginning to scratch off my possible reasons for crashes, and go from there. I am going to try using the algae disks from FAF. Is the Micro Algae Grow that they supply actually necessary for successful reproduction of the algae to make phyto? I was going to go off of the recipe that melev had on his webpage, and it said to use miracle grow. I was assuming that was to take place of the Micro Algae Grow? or do i need the micro algae grow to begin the process? Plus.... is splitting the culture really necessary? i mean splitting it using a sifter such a coffee filter, etc, really necessary? because that just proved to be really messy for me. thanks for all of your help!

[LLUSA]

Hi,

I have not read Melev's recipe for a Miracle Grow Based F/2, but I would recommed using the FAF culture medium (I have however had dinner with him some time back, so I think). Eliminate the variables i say. You do need a feed for the algae to grow.

Trying to do a culture from a mixed culture is tough. Get the disks from FAF, follow the directions. You wont be disasspointed.

Good luck,

Ed

[GreshamH]

Why the FAF medium and not another modifed F/2?

[melev]

You only split the cultures after you've got it matured. At that point, you pull some off for use in your tank, and use the rest to start a new batch. It is similar to sourdough starter, in that you always need some for the next recipe.

I don't use the coffee filters any longer, and I thought I'd deleted that from my webpage a couple of months ago, but perhaps I didn't. It does help strain out some larger junk, but it isn't critical. I guess a filter sock would be easier if you did want to remove any floating particulates.

[LLUSA]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9008616#post9008616 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
Why the FAF medium and not another modifed F/2?

If he is ordering the disks, the Marine Algae Grow can come from the same place.

Ed

[ictoagsnstii]

oh yeah, from FAF. so if i add baking soda to my mix, i am assuming it acts as a buffer, and reduces smell? and, to make phyto, you need between 60 and 70 deg. f. but... then you refrigerate it, which is normally colder than 60 deg. so... is refrigerating it necessary? or does it just keep it fresh longer?

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9013223#post9013223 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LLUSA
If he is ordering the disks, the Marine Algae Grow can come from the same place.

Ed

:D Makes sense. I thought there might be some other reason, like ease of use or something ;)

[snabss]

jpitts101 : i started a culture with DT as well. its been going on for around 5 days now. mine is turning greener. honestly i havent checked whats in the DT but i think strains like T.iso are brown and extensively used in the clams aquaculture. (or so i read somewhere:)

so i have a quick question for everyone. i started with DT and sal water at 1.019 sg and 5 ml of miracle grow and 1 ml of kents essential (the recipe at melev's site. the first few days i didnt notice anything the water stayed the same light green as the day first. afte about 4 days its started to turn greener (yaay!) so it seems the cuture is growing now. but i have noticed that the water level has dropped in the bottle. (i am using a 1000 ml glass bottle). i just topped off with ro water to the original level. reasoning being; the water level drop was due to evaporation and would raise the sg in the bottle so i topped off with ro water. do you guys see noticeable evaporation? and if so, do you top off?

i would be ordering cultures and the density meter from FAF soon. this culture from DT was just experimental.

[jpitts101]

my culture from DT's was expermintal as well but its still going and gonig strong so i kept it, now im doing the DT's strain, nanno, and tetra. i havent had any evaporarion issues. is your air supply to high? from day one to split i ususally cant tell of much evoporatioin at all.

[Kurt03]

i notice evaporation in my 2 liter. I just top off with ro like you did.

[snabss]

where are you getting the strains from ? FAF? if you start from DT it would always be the dominant strain that will develop , is that correct?

[Kurt03]

I started mine from dt's, so what kind of phyto do i have??

listed on the bottle is
Nannochloropsis
Phaeodactylum tricornutum
and chlorella

Which most likely takes over in my culture?

[acroman]

yeah, the dominant strain will always take over. the dominant strain, however will depend, to an extent on the culture conditions. (ie at temperature x, with light y, nanno will be dominant, however, at temperature z, chaeto will dominate)

[Kurt03]

chaeto? Theres not chaeto in my culture :)

I see what your saying though. So its usually 73-75 with a 15watt florescent strip light. anyone want to take a guess? or does it not matter a whole bunch? Whats the advantages to the diffrent types?

[snabss]

diff strains have diff nutritional values, thus suitable for diff breeding/feeding regiments. but mostly a mixture is used.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/breeder.htm

this link has some useful information about diff strains of phyto. i think nanno, tetr and iso are three strain used mainly in fish larvae feeding.

[melev]

I recently restarted my 2g bottle of phyto a few days ago. I used RO/DI water this time just to see what would happen. 20ml of Miracle Grow, 4ml Kent's Essential Elements, and maybe 2oz of a previous phytoplankton culture.

It has been getting more green each day. The first day it was hardly opaque.

Yes, topping off would be a good idea.

[Malifluous]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9022410#post9022410 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kurt03
I started mine from dt's, so what kind of phyto do i have??

listed on the bottle is
Nannochloropsis
Phaeodactylum tricornutum
and chlorella

Which most likely takes over in my culture?


I thought chlorella was a freshwater algae. Does it have a saltwater species?

[snabss]

i am using tap water right now for my culture medium (ofcourse with salt in it) and it seems to be working. i will try with some Ro water next time.

[ictoagsnstii]

ok, my disks came in (yay!) and i sterilized my saltwater in the microwave, and am going to cover the disk in that water. thats correct, right?

[snabss]

i would sterilize the tap water in the microwave first and then add salt to it and use that on the disk. but i guess the other way round would be ok too.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9023130#post9023130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Malifluous
I thought chlorella was a freshwater algae. Does it have a saltwater species?


It is naturally. I know the largest producers of it are the Japanesse, and they've adapted it to brackish salinities.

[melev]

Gresham, if I wanted to start a new culture using Phyto Feast, is there any reason it wouldn't work? I still have some of my own home-grown Nanochloropsus. I've used DT's in the past, but has anyone tried Phyto Feast? (Btw, it should have been called Phyto Pheast! :lol:)

[snabss]

isnt phyto feast dead algae?

[Ixthys]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9023130#post9023130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Malifluous
I thought chlorella was a freshwater algae. Does it have a saltwater species?

marine chlorella is Nannochloropsis

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9025976#post9025976 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snabss
isnt phyto feast dead algae?

The PF contentrate is prepped like our Istant Algae paste, and mixed together. THe Phyto-Feast Live, is well, alive ;)

Stop on by, your in the same City :D

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9029318#post9029318 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ixthys
marine chlorella is Nannochloropsis

That's an ongoing debate ;)

[Ixthys]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9030544#post9030544 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
That's an ongoing debate ;)

What makes you say that?

[GreshamH]

It's my line of work :) I work with several phycologists with many post docs in this field. I simply ask them :lol:

[snabss]

greshamH, are you in campbell? do you have a shop or business of your own? i havent met any other reefers in my city, though i am sure there are many :)

[Ixthys]

Fair enough :D

Tell them to read the article (quoted by Frank Hoff) by Maruyama and Nakamura (1986). :D ...unless of course you're working with those guys! JK

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9033245#post9033245 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snabss
greshamH, are you in campbell? do you have a shop or business of your own? i havent met any other reefers in my city, though i am sure there are many :)

PM sent :)

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9034612#post9034612 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ixthys
Fair enough :D

Tell them to read the article (quoted by Frank Hoff) by Maruyama and Nakamura (1986). :D ...unless of course you're working with those guys! JK

I'm sure they've read it. We sell Frank's book :D I'll try to get one of them to register and answer more in depth :D

[spmedi]

Anyone ever culture in a sun tea type jar to be used continously? Pour out your dose, fill back up w/ water (w/ additives) etc?

Thanks,

Also how much should one dose? Similar to DT dosing?

[melev]

That is how I grow mine, spmedi. I have a 2g jar.

[spmedi]

Thanks.

PS - Can't sleep? lol

[acroman]

the tea jar method could work well as long as the culture doesnt get contaminated. as long as the water you are adding is bleached or boiled, and nothing falls in when you add/remove, you should be fine.

[snabss]

ok couple of updates.

1- the culture i started with DT stopped truning greener after a week or so. and the shade of green was not as green as i would have wanted it to be. plus there were particles of something white in there, looked like bleached algae to me!.
so i spilled that culture

2- i received the algae dish from forida aqua farms. so i will start a new culture with that. i will use one dish to start two cultures (just to be on the safe side). my question is how long should i keep it bubbling? as in how many days would it take to reach a point where i can use it in my tank?

3- i ordered the algae density meter from them as well. but they didnt send any chart :( i will call them tomorrow. in the mean while if any of the fellow reefers has the chart and if its easy to scan it, can you send me a copy? would really appreciate.


now off to find a new soda bottle:P

[melev]

I have the chart on my site. It is on the phytoplankton page. If you can't find the link, let me know.

Splitting the cultures at 5 to 7 days is pretty common, and by the third generation it would be about as dark as you can get it.

[snabss]

so i should split it after say 7 days regardless of how green it is ?

got the chart, thats for that.

another quick question. should i use the whole disk in one bottle or divide it between two? would it take too long if i divide it between two? i just want to have a backup (i was stupid not to order more than one culture dishes)

[frazier]

so it's better to use tap water then RO?? can you use Ro or maybe half and half?? so i can buy some salt water from LFS and mix it to what?

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9111673#post9111673 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snabss
so i should split it after say 7 days regardless of how green it is ?

got the chart, thats for that.

another quick question. should i use the whole disk in one bottle or divide it between two? would it take too long if i divide it between two? i just want to have a backup (i was stupid not to order more than one culture dishes)

I wouldn't let it go past 14 days without splitting. If it goes too long it will use all the f/2 nutrients and crash ;)

As for splitting the disk, what size cultures are you setting up? You might want to start with say two 16 oz soda bottles to make two seperate stock cultures and than step those up when they get a nice dark green.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9112313#post9112313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by frazier
so it's better to use tap water then RO??

All those algae promoting nutrients that we use RO/DI to filter out for our reef tanks are quite beneficial to algae cultures ;)

[jpitts101]

but arent all the heavy metals and chemicals bad? i've only been cultureing for a few months but have heard that is a big NO NO to use tap water. im cultureing Nannochloropsis, tetraselmis and a strain from DT's and havent had any problems with rodi.

[billsreef]

If your tap has enough heavy metals and chemicals to be a problem, I hope your not drinking it :eek1:

[jpitts101]

i guess its similar to everyone else's. but most of us treat out reef better than ourselves. if thats the case then why not fill out tank with tap? it wont hurt anything, is that what your saying?

[melev]

Tap water works fine to grow phytoplankton. The algae needs those items to grow. We want it to grow.

However, in our tank, we don't want algae to grow, right? So we use RO/DI water for the reef tank.

I'm just a hobbyist, so I try to reason out some of this stuff, and make assumptions based on gut instinct sometimes rather than based on scientific proof. My gut (and it could be wrong, right? ) tells me that the phyto uses up the stuff in tap water, and we dose phyto in small amounts. That is why I've never worried about it.

[jpitts101]

hey adam/travis, you need to read this, they are telling people to use tap water to make phyto, melev is saying that the phyto will take all the chemicals and heavy metals out of your water. i've been following this thread for awhile and lots of it contridicts what we do. you may want to chime in. just thought you should read it.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9114437#post9114437

[jpitts101]

sorry that was meant for a pm for a fellow reefer that says you should never use tap in anything reef related. i wanted him to chime in and give his side.

[melev]

I thought you were trying to put us in an endless loop. :D

[jpitts101]

no sorry, i just want to have adam, which is a fellow reefer and taught me how to culture phyto to chime in and get another side of why we dont use tap. sorry for the confusion .

[melev]

Adam was just here speaking to our club this month, along with Micheal from Extreme Corals. The talk and demo was excellent, and it did make me rethink my current methods.

What was more of a shocker was how little phytoplankton we have in our oceans today vs what was there less than 10 years ago. :(

[jpitts101]

i dont enough about this topic to argue about it but i dont understand how phyto can take nutrients out of freshwater such as heavy metals and chlorine and use them benificially??

[jpitts101]

yes that was amazing! 10 years from now we may not have any at all! i wonder how all the reefs will survive then! sad!!

[snabss]

the link is for this thread. i thought you were pointing to some other thread. or did i get it wrong

[jpitts101]

i messed up, sorry,ignore it.

[Ixthys]

An endless loop. It's like how you can never get out of the shower once you start washing your hair--- Lather, Rinse, Repeat....

[DrBDC]

:lol:

[frazier]

so this will work??? going to use Ro instead of tap..

Starter culture from someone (even DT's would work, I've been told)
Tap water mixed to 1.019 sg
5 ml Miracle Grow Houseplant liquid food, per bottle, per batch
1 ml Kent's Essential Elements

Lighting 16 hours of light, 8 hours of darkness regulated with a timer
Steady bubbling of air via rigid tubing to the base of the bottle
Shaken slightly each day to stir up the solution from the bottom.

[jpitts101]

i dont want to step on anyone's toes or by any means offend anyone so please dont take this like i am, i have followed melev's articles and website since i started reefing, and really look up to him and all his work.

yes that will work but........ why do you want to use miracle grow? its not made for phyto its made houseplants. you can go to fla aqua farms and buy some F2 which is made specifically for cultureing phytoplankton. I have heard people say its basically the same but its not! im sure miracle grow does not have a sterile factory for making the stuff. I started with miracle grow and had several crashes and since going to F2 have not had a single crash. I've also heard that you need the chemicals and metals in the water to help the plankton culture, this is not true thats what the fertilizer is for. I use RODI water with great sucess. I know this can be a big debate and im sure i will get my but chewed from you guys about it but i dont think its smart to use tap or miracle grow. thats like useing some floresent light strips from you shop to light your aquarium, its light right?? lights are made specifically for certain things and so is miracle grow. i was told earlier if my water was so bad than why am i drinking it? how many of us top our tanks off with tap water, or fill our tanks up with tap water? you just dont do it! i think that everything that goes into our aquariums should be specifically for our aquariums, its such an expensive hobby we cant afford things to go wrong.

I would do things the same as you with an exception of the miracle grow, i would use F2 and only 1 ml of it, and i use rodi instead of tap.

Again, i really look up to melev and alot of others on here so please dont rip me one to bad. Its just my thoughts and opinions.

[WaterKeeper]

I think what Marc is saying is a plant is a plant is a plant. Be it an Oak Tree, Christmas Cactus or an algae they all use Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium to grow and prosper. Those are the major components of any fertilizer and Miracle-Gro contains all three. Now it does add some other materials like iron and magnesium, usually in chelated form, but the major components are the above three. Food for a flowering house plant may change the ratio, usually it is higher in phosphorus, but all three biggies will be there. I think what Marc is saying is that you don't need to go to extreme measures to feed phytoplankton. It is just a plant.

Oh NO!!! WK just found out he made a post in the Advanced Topics Forum. That will get my newbie centered rear end in trouble. ;)

[melev]

J.D. - no worries. What you described simply hasn't worked for me. I've used all the stuff from FAF, as is described on my site as Recipe 1. It crashed and crashed and crashed. Recipe 2 works for me.

You can choose to do whatever you like, and document how it works for you. I'm happy that Recipe 1 works like it should.

My latest batch is ready to split. Good enough for me. :)

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/07/01/phyto_0131.jpg

[Ixthys]

Do you know what strain you're growing from the DT's?

[jpitts101]

one of my cultures is from DT's, i dont know what strand it is. its a brown strain whatever it is.
DT's has nannochloropsis oculata, phaeodactylum tricornutum, and chlorella.
i know its not nannochlorpsis and i think chlorella is a green algea too so im thinking its phaeodactylum tricornutum. but im by far a pro and dont have the experience everyone else does. If anyone thinks it could be different let me know.

[radeon]

Just wondering where you guys get the miracle grow from? From what i know, Home Depot sells the water soluble ones and i don't think they have the liquid ones.

[melev]

I think I got mine at Walmart.

[radeon]

nm, lowes sells it. Anyway, thx for your quick response

[Kurt03]

got mine from a local hardware store.

[radeon]

Well, i guess they sell it everywhere except HD

[Kurt03]

never tried there, if you have a local hardware store might try there.

Does anyone know if you mix the dry stuff correctly its the same as the liquid?

[melev]

No idea. I do know the fertilizer ratio on my bottle is 12-4-8.

[Fishboy1230]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9121624#post9121624 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by frazier
so this will work??? going to use Ro instead of tap..

Starter culture from someone (even DT's would work, I've been told)
Tap water mixed to 1.019 sg
5 ml Miracle Grow Houseplant liquid food, per bottle, per batch
1 ml Kent's Essential Elements

Lighting 16 hours of light, 8 hours of darkness regulated with a timer
Steady bubbling of air via rigid tubing to the base of the bottle
Shaken slightly each day to stir up the solution from the bottom.


I have been using this exact "recipe" for a few weeks and it rocks! Not a single crash yet! The miricle grow worked , and still is, working like a charm. Thanks!

[wlagarde]

This was my solution -

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9445279#post9445279

[frazier]

how long does it take to be able to spit?

[Fishboy1230]

2-3 weeks depending on the desired density. I had a one culture that multiplied so rapidly that i could split it in one week!

[poissonist]

what are you doing with your living phyto??? I HAVE 20 LITERS GROTECH BREEDER AND I USED IT WITH NANOCHLOROPSIS BUT PRODUCTION WAS NOT ENOUGH TO FEED SMALL AMOUNTS OF BRACHIONUS PLICATILIS; i DID AFTER THAT PORPHIRIDIUM RED PHYTO AND IT WAS THE SAME;Now i use EQUIVALENT OF16OO LITERS PER MONTH NANNOCHLOROPSIS MADE BY PROFESSIONNALS AND I CAN FEED MILLIARDS OF BRACHIONUS ONLY BECAUSE I ALSO FEED WITH LARGE AND LIVE QUANTITIES OF BUTCHER YEAST AND I HOPE TO SEE EFFECTS ON ALL CORALS AND OTHER ANIMALS;so when i see you guys doing with little bottles of phyto i wonder what results you can obtain????????????????????????

[gotdibz]

hey guys so far i fallowed all the directions from form melev, one thing i wasnt clear about and isnt mention is how much of the DTs phyto should you add to the recipe when you start your first culture? i started with about 15 or 20 ML

[gotdibz]

heres some pictures so far this is my second day running my culture and i used the miracle-gro and i shake the bottle slightll every morning
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/yieyo/phyto2.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/yieyo/phyto1.jpg

[sinister52]

can u use phytofeast to start these?

[gotdibz]

Im no expert but from what i have read phyto feast is all basically dead because its a mixture of so many different type of plankton that they all basically kill each other ...i just started mine with DT marine but the best choice is to start from a culture disk.

[salty joe]

Hey, I have not tried the phyto thing yet, but I wonder that maybe a smaller wattage lamp could be used if it had no reflector and was placed in the middle of a white bucket. It looks like there would be room for 4 cultures. Maybe cut a couple flat spots on the perimeter of the lid for the airlines, and loosely set the lid on top for a reflector.

It might also be worthwhile to find how many lumens a given lamp produces. Some lamps produce more lumens/watt than others. I'm not sure what part of the spectrum is critical for phyto, but getting a spectral graph for a lamp usually only takes a phone call or two.

I'm always trying to squeeze everything I can out of every single watt.

Joe

[melev]

This is what I did a while back, Joe. I used a 55w PC bulb.

http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/food/phyto.jpg

[pluvialis]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/prettypond/flask4.jpg

[Qcks]

Okay, this going to be all over the place so bear with me....

Some people here use Carbon dioxide, instead of normal air to drive the agitation of their phyto cultures, correct?

why not use a yeast culture, and then feed the Yeast culture to the rotifers instead of phyto?

[wlagarde]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9507394#post9507394 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Qcks
Okay, this going to be all over the place so bear with me....

Some people here use Carbon dioxide, instead of normal air to drive the agitation of their phyto cultures, correct?

why not use a yeast culture, and then feed the Yeast culture to the rotifers instead of phyto?

This certainly be done, but in the long run it would be a pain.

[wlagarde]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9507394#post9507394 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Qcks
Okay, this going to be all over the place so bear with me....

Some people here use Carbon dioxide, instead of normal air to drive the agitation of their phyto cultures, correct?

why not use a yeast culture, and then feed the Yeast culture to the rotifers instead of phyto?

Oooops - my fault. I thought you wanted to use the CO2 from the yeast to grow the phyto. Actually, you don't even need to grow the yeast. You can simply feed the rotifers with bakers yeast dissolved in water. The reason most people grow phyto though is to provide food for the pods in their refugia/tank.

[salty joe]

Does anyone use the little bit of CO2 blowoff from a calcium reactor for phyto culture?

Does using CO2 really make a difference?

Joe

[wlagarde]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9511773#post9511773 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by salty joe
Does anyone use the little bit of CO2 blowoff from a calcium reactor for phyto culture?

Does using CO2 really make a difference?

Joe

With an adequate light source, carbon becomes the rate limiting nutrient in algal culture, so supplementing CO2 significantly accelerates growth. The ideal way to deliver CO2, however, would be to use a pH controller as the degree of pH suppression would correlate with amount of CO2 delivered (This is what most people do in freshwater naturally planted tanks). I used to have a system like this setup on a freshwater tank and man did the plants grow! Don't know for sure about algal culture though...

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9496079#post9496079 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sinister52
can u use phytofeast to start these?

Yes, if you want to culture nanno. Nanno will win out against all the other strains.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9496120#post9496120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gotdibz
Im no expert but from what i have read phyto feast is all basically dead because its a mixture of so many different type of plankton that they all basically kill each other ...i just started mine with DT marine but the best choice is to start from a culture disk.

Sorry, but that is just wrong. PF is not dead. If you try to culture it, the strongest will win, nanno..

DT's is a mixture as well ;)

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9511852#post9511852 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wlagarde
The ideal way to deliver CO2, however, would be to use a pH controller as the degree of pH suppression would correlate with amount of CO2 delivered (This is what most people do in freshwater naturally planted tanks).

For a planted tank, yes a controller is great. However, for a phyto culture you would not need it, just turn the CO2 off when the lights go off. The photosynthesis in a dense algae culture will cause a high pH, more than enough to counter the pH lowering effect of adding CO2 ;)

Is CO2 worth using, probably not in a home culture situation. In a commercial situation it can certainly increase your production enough to be worthwile.

[wlagarde]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9513400#post9513400 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
For a planted tank, yes a controller is great. However, for a phyto culture you would not need it, just turn the CO2 off when the lights go off. The photosynthesis in a dense algae culture will cause a high pH, more than enough to counter the pH lowering effect of adding CO2 ;)

Is CO2 worth using, probably not in a home culture situation. In a commercial situation it can certainly increase your production enough to be worthwile.

Yet using a controller would still result in more precise dosing and most efficient utilization of CO2 - But I agree - likely not worth the investment.

[gotdibz]

my attempt to start a phyto culture with DT's has failed, im not sayin it wont work, maibe the phyto i bought was probably to old or something. I have placed an order of starter culture disks with floridaaquafarms.com . Im going to give it another try and will update with pictures as soon as i can

[WaterKeeper]

The problem with DT cultures is they get old, like yours truly, and lose their reproductive punch.

:eek1:

[gotdibz]

ok guys heres my update so far

so i bought the supplies needed from Floridaaquafarms , the culture disk and the micro algae grow out food.
Im going to experiment with 2 different methods of growing phyto.

1. on my first botlle I will add 1/2 of the culture disk , 5ml Miracle grow plant food, and 1ml of essential elements

2 on my second botle i will add the other half of the culture disk, 2ml of micro algae grow out food, and 1ml of essential elements

The point of this little experiment is to see which bottle will do better and not crash, when i established which bottle does better, i will continue to culture my phyto with the best method possible.

heres my pictures so far ...looking good if i say so myself

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/yieyo/phyto2-1.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/yieyo/phyto.jpg

[melev]

You didn't mark the bottles to tell which is which, did you? Put a rubber band around the one using Miracle Grow perhaps. It would be a shame to mix them up now that you've started your test.

[gotdibz]

hey melev i actually did mark them, its just really hard to tell on the pictures because i used a green sharpie, thanx for the heads up

[dcs03tx]

Has anyone tried adding Selcon to thier cultures? I havent tried it yet, was just wonderin if anyone else has. One of those many ideas that seem to pop into your head while you're sleepin LOL

[melev]

dcs03tx,

[welcome]

Selcon is mainly vitamin based, but who knows if that might cause the culture to crash? You could try it out I guess. Vitamins tend to break down over time, so perhaps by the time the phyto is harvested it may be vitamin-free.

[billsreef]

Vitamins won't cause a culture to crash, indeed they are a vital part of the f/2 media used to culture phyto. I would however worry about the HUFFA's, they are not as likely to be utilized by the phyto and more likely to promote bacterial problems with your culture.

[GreshamH]

They can't utilize HUFA's at all IIRC Bill.

[gwrench]

I have had continued success using UV sterilized aged (10-12 days) saltwater of a SG between 1.019-1.021
Secondary culturing is started with 4ml of f2 macro algae grow in 2.5 litre reactors, then 2-3 days after adding 1-2 ml more of f2
Usually after 5-7 days harvest can be done again. I highly suggest cleaning culture vessels every 2-3 cycles or if using 2 litre bottle use new ones. Temperature variations can also be a concern of cultures crashing as well as contamination.

Cleanliness, proper feeding, and prohibiting contamination is critical to have success.
Hope this helps
Regards,
George




http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s156/gwrench63/reactorsphyto.jpg

[melev]

George, I love how clean your phyto station is. That's high class. :thumbsup:

[Ehgemus]

George, That is a great looking set-up.
Do you have to shake those up? or does the phyto not settle because of the funnel shape tubes?

[fry_school101]

George, That's a sWEEt setup!

[jrandreassen]

Hi Guy's...

OK, keep in mind I'm a newbie at this so be gentle :).

Given that the Algae Grow supplement is mostly what we don't want in our tanks. Would it not be possible to utilize micro-algae growth to extract those things from our tanks ?(Nitrates, Phosphates, etc)
I understand that in order to get a culture to grow to any concentration, organisms that fee on them have to be eliminated.
So the question becomes....
1) What kind of filtration is necessary ?
(Settled, Skimmed, x-micron, and UV)
2) What additives would we still have to add?

What I was thinking of was to set up a water changing stageing in the garage. So I was thinking of doing an experiment with it.

Take a sample,
"Nuke it"... UV sterilize it (Or even boil if that would work)
Filter it through a couple of 10 - 50 micron bags/socks.
Add RO water to get the SG right
Then see if it will grow...
So I'll take any constuctive critisizm you might have...
JR

[scolymia]

You can try with this product:

http://www.easyreefs.com/

There is Nannochloropsis, Paeodactylum and Tetraselmis. It's liofilized.

We are using in Spain in our reefs and to breed rotifers as Brachionus.

[jrandreassen]

OK...
That's more of an additive.
I was thinking more like growing cultures in filtered tank water to extract nutrients and thereby putting another block of the cycle in our our bio-spheres.
It should be possible... Right ?
JR

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10010489#post10010489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jrandreassen
OK...
That's more of an additive.
I was thinking more like growing cultures in filtered tank water to extract nutrients and thereby putting another block of the cycle in our our bio-spheres.
It should be possible... Right ?
JR

IIRC the old Aquarium Systems clownfish hatchery reused a large percentage of it's waste SW by putting it in outdoor concrete ponds with an assortment of micro and macro algaes to strip nutrients. So it is doable. If it's viable on a hobbyiest scale, especially when you compare the cost of electric used to the price of salt mix and RO/DI water is another question.

[KyleO]

I am only on my 5th (successful) batch of Phytoplankton but I would say turning up your air bubbles is going to do the trick. I am seeing some collection on the bottom of a few of those bottles. I don't see that with mine due to the much higher air bubble output in mine (I am thinking).

Also, with 2 bulbs you could be experiencing a temp shift inside the bottles that you are not aware of. Are you measuring the temp inside the bottles?

Thanks for all of your help in the past!!!!

[jrandreassen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10011853#post10011853 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
IIRC the old Aquarium Systems clownfish hatchery reused a large percentage of it's waste SW by putting it in outdoor concrete ponds with an assortment of micro and macro algaes to strip nutrients. So it is doable. If it's viable on a hobbyiest scale, especially when you compare the cost of electric used to the price of salt mix and RO/DI water is another question.

The cost issue is a point, but if it was just a cost issue, our hobbies are a really bad idea.
To me it more a question of completing the circle and reducing the need for water changes.
My question, all cost aside, is one of process and viability.
How would I need to filter the water, what would I need to add to it ?
Temp, salinity etc.
Are there any good references out there ??
Thanks
JR

[billsreef]

JR,

Pick up a copy of Hoff's Plankton Culture Manual. That is "bible" of plankton culture ;) For filtering the water, I would micron filter and follow that with UV in order to remove any pods, paramecium and other critters that would crash the phyto. I'd also suggest an easy growing phyto like Nanochloropsis as a good one to use. Depending on your "waste" water, you might need to only add some trace elements for the phyto, however, if your tank is low on nitrates on phosphates you still might want to use some Guillards f/2 media to ensure good phyto growth. If you let the culture go long enough, those nutrients will get completely used up ;)

[jrandreassen]

I'll do that...
Thanks for the info.
When I get some time in the fall I'll take a stab at it, and I'll post a thread with the results.
JR
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10023472#post10023472 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
JR,

Pick up a copy of Hoff's Plankton Culture Manual. That is "bible" of plankton culture ;) For filtering the water, I would micron filter and follow that with UV in order to remove any pods, paramecium and other critters that would crash the phyto. I'd also suggest an easy growing phyto like Nanochloropsis as a good one to use. Depending on your "waste" water, you might need to only add some trace elements for the phyto, however, if your tank is low on nitrates on phosphates you still might want to use some Guillards f/2 media to ensure good phyto growth. If you let the culture go long enough, those nutrients will get completely used up ;)

[flashpanther]

What's the upto date verdict on using Miracle-Gro to help cultivate PhytoPlankton please?

I see the bottle states 0.002% Copper soluble in water chelated by EDTA.

Is this really safe?

Please can someone clear this up... I have the bottle ready to use but very nervous about doing so.

Anyone use Miracle-Gro in the past have any problems with their corals and inverts as a result?

Cheers guys and girls :wave:

[billsreef]

What's the upto date verdict on using Miracle-Gro to help cultivate PhytoPlankton please?

While it will grow phytoplankton, it will grow nutritionally lacking phyto due to a lack of some necessary vitamins and minerals. By the time you make the necessary adjustments, you will have spent more money, and more time and effort than simply buying some proper Guillards f/2 media from someplace like Florida Aqua Farms. As for the copper, it's actually a necessary element for phyto growth, though at a lower percentage.

[flashpanther]

While it will grow phytoplankton, it will grow nutritionally lacking phyto due to a lack of some necessary vitamins and minerals. By the time you make the necessary adjustments, you will have spent more money, and more time and effort than simply buying some proper Guillards f/2 media from someplace like Florida Aqua Farms. As for the copper, it's actually a necessary element for phyto growth, though at a lower percentage.

I am actually using Kent Marine Essential Elements with the Cultures. Is this enough to aid the Miracle-Gro ?

I also have some Brightwelll Aquatics vitamin supplements that I can consider using if helpful ?

So the copper content in Miracle-Gro all purpose liquid food is not a concern for Reef owners such as myself with a tank of corals and inverts?


Help is greatly appreciated :dance:

[billsreef]

The Kent Essential Elements contains additional copper and zinc, both of which are already in the Miracle Grow in abundance. I wouldn't want to be adding any extra. BTW, all the elements, with the exception of Iron, found in any of the trace element supplements are already found in our SW mixes in over abundance and not needed for use in our tanks ;) Of the Brightwell stuff, only the Vitamarin-M appears to be useful for this purpose. However, that one little 500ml bottle cost more than a dry mix "mass pack" of Guillards sufficient to make 3,000 gallons of culture ;)

https://3kserver7.com/~frank/secure/agora.cgi?cart_id=7828974.26297*i-0Ok5&product=MICRO_MACRO_NUTRIENTS

Miracle Grow just isn't cost effective when you compare it to the proper nutrient media from a good and direct source ;)

[flashpanther]

The Kent Essential Elements contains additional copper and zinc, both of which are already in the Miracle Grow in abundance. I wouldn't want to be adding any extra. BTW, all the elements, with the exception of Iron, found in any of the trace element supplements are already found in our SW mixes in over abundance and not needed for use in our tanks ;) Of the Brightwell stuff, only the Vitamarin-M appears to be useful for this purpose. However, that one little 500ml bottle cost more than a dry mix "mass pack" of Guillards sufficient to make 3,000 gallons of culture ;)

https://3kserver7.com/~frank/secure/agora.cgi?cart_id=7828974.26297*i-0Ok5&product=MICRO_MACRO_NUTRIENTS

Miracle Grow just isn't cost effective when you compare it to the proper nutrient media from a good and direct source ;)

Cheers for all the help. I was going by Melevsreef old recipe from his website as turned up good results. Hence using the Essential Elements and purcasing the Miracle-Gro (not used as yet).

I'm using a little tap water in my mix rather than just RO/saltwater and certainly helped my second batch as first on pure RO/saltwater crashed totally (first ever try).

I only used a third tap water as 450 TDS.

As for the F2 formula I am from the United Kingdom as unable to find a supplier. Would be very expensive if I did (£16 for 175ml). I managed to find a retailer with a recipe based on the F2 an purchased to give a try. Cost me £12 for just 250ml though :bigeyes:

I got the Brightwell Aquatics Vitamin-M (& C) cheap from clearance stock from a shop shut down so already in possesion to use maybe?

[billsreef]

Since you already have the vitamins cheap, might was play around with them ;)

When you run out, it's probably worth contacting Florida Aqua Farms, they supply Aquaculturist as well has hobbyist and would likely ship to the UK. Not sure what shipping rates would be, but the stuff can go the cheapest method, so likely not too bad.

[flashpanther]

Since you already have the vitamins cheap, might was play around with them ;)

When you run out, it's probably worth contacting Florida Aqua Farms, they supply Aquaculturist as well has hobbyist and would likely ship to the UK. Not sure what shipping rates would be, but the stuff can go the cheapest method, so likely not too bad.

Cheers Bill,

Thanks for all the help. I'll be sure to get a shipping quote from them as US prices are heck of a lot cheaper than the outrageous prices a UK supplier is quoting.

Andy.

[erics3000]

What is the new reciepe without the miracle grow?

[rayjay]

Use 1ml of F/2 for each 2.5L of culture.
I get the mass pack shipped into Canada from Florida Aqua Farms.

[erics3000]

Thanks Rayjay I have been wanting to do something like this for a while now. I also had a couple thoughts to try it outside and use some natural sunlight. I think that might be after I have a few successful batches. So for now I will just make room on my reactor bench.

I found this link. I think that would be cool but not sure about cleaning it out regularly.
Anybody ever tried anything like this?

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://archiv.korallenriff.de/reaktoren.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://archiv.korallenriff.de/reaktoren.html%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG