New wavemaker- awesome!!!

[DeskJockey]

Wow!!! great invention Paul, absolutely great! And just in time too, Im setting up my new tank and that 4 way w/ revolutions has my name all over it. You’ll be getting my order very soon!

Thanks


-Alex

[MadTownMax]

Paul-

Any updates on which 4-way models are available (or will be soon)?

Same question for 3/4"; 1"; 90-degree; 180-degree revolutions.

_Nick

[kstockman]

Just thought that I would jump in with a few comments.

First off--that is way very cool device and it took some real guts to get all the equipment to make a quality device.

I guess the unforntunate thing is that this is just a novel design and not a new concept, therfore not really patentable. You could get a design patent, but not a utility patent. If a utility patent were to be issued for this device, then the patent office is not doing there job. This is just a knock off of a 4 or 7 way that are commonly used in the chemical industry. Just go to a Swage-Lok catalog and you will find them.

On the other hand, this is not an easy product to knock off. The equipment to make the device would prohibit making just one or two. So the barrier to market is significant and the market is small. Therefore a knock-off is not likely to show up anytime soon.

Will I buy one anytime soon? No. I can make a knock-off seaswirl for about $60. My design is similar to the ReefRat, but a bit different. SInce the device oscillates, I doubt that I would need 8 of them. I have one currently. I had two but the motor was bad on one.

Just some random thoughts.

[MadTownMax]

Ken,

You're referring to the 4-way and 8-way models, what about the "Revolutions"?

[kstockman]

Paul--

When ever I see a design, I think of ways to improve/change it. So here are a few ideas.

1. I don't know if this would work, but is would be cool. Could you eliminate the motor by using an impeller and the return water to drive the rotation. I know, moving parts and water--probably not a good idea, but if had the rotating shaft isolated from the gear box (so the gears did not get wet), then it might work.

2. have a motor sandwiched between two 4-way devices. This would require a motor with a shaft out both sides of the motor. Why? One 4-way to the closed loop and one 4 way to the return pump. For that matter two 8-ways--but that is probably overkill.

3. design a pump head--similar to the dolphin--that combines the impeller and the concept described here.

Just some random thoughts.
ken

[kstockman]

I am reffering to the 4-way and 8 way. Again not an "real" invention. If a patent were to be issued on the device, then some patent examiners should lose their jobs. In no way am I knocking this device. Again, it looks killer and it appears to be high quality. It is just not a "novel" concept, and the designer, I believe, admits to that fact. It is just taking a known concept that is utlized in another industry and modifying for use in the aquarium industry.

The key here is the barrier to entry and the fact that it is a specialty item that a larger company is not likely to knock off. Great idea for a small business--can't get any better than that.

That is the whole issue with the Durso and the Stockman Standpipe. Neither of which are a novel concept. Believe me, Durso and I have looked into it and I wrote most of a patent on the idea, before I found out that it was not novel. The other point is that anybody can make them cheaply and anyone can knock them off. All-glass has stolen the Durso and someone from RC is selling my design on ebay (although he claims his design is "new").

I don't know how the revolution works, so I can't speak to it. But the 8 way open for all to see on the site, so you know exactly what is going on.

[musicsmaker]

MadTownMax, do you know if the "revolutions" cause any backpressure? The concept seems similar to the Ocean Currents wavemaker. That device uses gears, and according to the info page at Marine Depot:

Additional back-pressure will be created and a noticeable drop in flow rate should be expected: which can be compensated for by using a larger pump/powerhead.

[kstockman]

BTW--I think that a cheap knock off is quit easy to design. It would have to be an in-sump design and could only be used for the return pump and not for a closed loop. My idea would tend to have leaking issues, but if it were submerged in the sump, then who cares if it leaked.

I think that I will go to the DIY section and start a thread.

[MadTownMax]

Ken -
You're inventor spirit is working overboard I do totally respect your opionion though, as your standpipe design has been very useful to myself and countless others.

Your comments are appreciated, but personally, I'd prefer a device that does not restrict flow with gears, and the turning assembly probably requires more torque than a SCWD-type of setup would provide - not to mention the motor-control ensures constant wave timing vs the low-flow/slow switching, High-flow/fast switching, both of which are intrinsically useless.

And I'm totally lost as to the point of your suggestions 2 - most people use two sea swirls along with some static outputs for their tanks, 4 suits my tank as more than enough outputs, 8 for those with larger tanks seems adequate.

sandwiching the motor would double the torque required by the motor - why would you do this?

your suggestion #3 - this would require you to either mount this pump + swiching device on top of your tank, otherwise you'd be having 4 outlets through more piping either from the floor up to the top of the tank (return pump), or from under the tank (closed loop)- dramatically increasing head pressure and drag - maybe I'm not getting you're design idea.....

Originally posted by musicsmaker
MadTownMax, do you know if the "revolutions" cause any backpressure? The concept seems similar to the Ocean Currents wavemaker. That device uses gears, and according to the info page at Marine Depot:

I'm not really the one to ask, Paul would know for sure, but I'm 99% sure that it does not have gears, it's just uses the water pressure to push it down, then an air pocket to lift it up when there's no flow through it.

The Ocean currents wavemaker is designed to turn with constant water flow - the revolution is made only to turn when given intermittent flow.

hope that helps

[kstockman]

Sometimes I just like to throw ideas out there. You never know where my idea will take someone else--including me.

2. would just allow you to use one motor to drive two 4ways. This would allow you to oscillate the all the water coming into the tank.

[MadTownMax]

I agree about everyone sharing ideas, even though original suggestions are not always the best, after they're discussed for a while they can lead to great innovations - another reason why people should make a concious effort for constructive criticism.

Originally posted by kstockman


2. would just allow you to use one motor to drive two 4ways. This would allow you to oscillate the all the water coming into the tank.

Still not getting it.... sorry


FWIW

I'm planning on running my 1.5" return line straight to the unit, then either 1) running two of the outlets to revolutions in my top front corners, then using one revolution centered in the top rear of my tank, the fourth outlet will go to a spray bar behind my rock..... or 2) a revolution in each corner with a spray bar plumbed separately - kinda liking (1) better as it seems that a intermittent spray-bar would do a better job of keeping things in the water column

oh yes........and dual stockmans in the overflow to handle all that flow

[stealyourhouse]

I think what Ken is saying is that rather than have one input for each 4 way, it would be cool to have the ability to have 2 inputs. This new 2 input 4 way would basically be two 4 ways on top of each other, and would use the same motor.

This way, you could use one input for a closed loop, and the other for your return pump.

I think this is a great idea. If the cost could be kept down, you would basically be getting two 4 ways for the price of one.

[musicsmaker]

And, if you split each of the outputs the fourway becomes an 8 way...

[mikefish]

Heh heh, here's a really stupid idea that I haven't thought through yet, and that wouldn't have much merit even if it could be made to work. But.... If you had 2 synchronized 4 ways on a closed loop, maybe you could use one for pump outputs, and one for pump inputs. You'd use the same pipes in the tank for inputs as outputs, they'd just switch back and forth. Think about it.
Mike

[kstockman]

on last time. One 4-way unit it could be used for the return pump from the sump. Most reef nuts are not happy with that, so they put on a closed loop as well--this would require a second 4-way unit. Now you have two units and two motors--cost $400. My suggestion instead of having two independent units that have one common motor. This might require a motor that is not available on the market.

MadTownMax--are you just trying to give me a hard time or do you really not get it?

[kstockman]

BTW--I am sure that Paul is already looking into determining if he can find a motor with a dual shaft. I would if I were him.

[MadTownMax]

Ken,

Sorry, I'm dense, didn't notice the "closed loop" part in the original post - that is a pretty cool idea

[MiddletonMark]

Yeah, that's really a great idea. Why not double the possible uses without needing to double the price?

I like the way you think Ken

[ne pats#2]

TAGGING ALONG. CAN YOU USE THE 4 WAY UNIT WITH A 55G ALL GLASS WITH OVERFLOW?

[commandertekki]

^

[golf nut]

Wow I go away for a few days and look what happens, sorry guys I am in Florida taking my second holiday since 1966, I know I'm old... anyway I was checking out a few stores down here and showing a couple of the toys.

To answer a few questions.

Neither the 4way, 8way or revolutions cause any backpressure, I do not use water pressure to drive them this was the reason for this design, there is zero hammering on the pump.

There are many ways to hook this up, I have one set up where one 8 way takes water from 8 inlets to the pump, then to another 8 way which sends it to 8 outlets, constanly changing current flow.

I have many versions of this soon to be in production but must limit myself at the moment to fulfill promises I have made, and get those finished first, once the rush dies down I will be making a number of different designs and although dual shafts is not in the forcast (yet!!) dual drums is a good candidate, for a similar application.

I will be back on Monday to ship more units and assemble components that were made while I was away.

thanx again

Paul

[geshields]

Paul,

YHPM..

Greg

[gregt]

I am in Florida taking my second holiday

If you make it to Tampa, let me know.

[golf nut]

can we get together about 5.30 this evening?

if so give me a call on the toll free, leave me a ph number and pm me with an address to hook up at, I can leave here about 3;30 or so.

Paul

[achilles1]

Paul, are you touring the Orlando shops today?