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01/14/2016, 06:14 AM | #1 |
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why I advocate what I do on this forum
While ThRoewer and I, and perhaps many more of you read the marine biology literature, be it with Google Scholar, Noga, Spotte, or whatever, where ThRoewer and I differ is practicality.
Having worked this forum for ten years now, I have subjectively found that at most half of aquarists on this board quarantine. Of those that do quarantine, perhaps half of those at most, do it effectively. I have never advocated for copper for several reasons: + aquarist error is just too easy to make (duration, concentration maintenance) + it does not treat all parasites + it is bad for fish I also do not advocate hyposalinity for two reasons: + it is very difficult to do correctly (instrument error, concentration error) + it only treats cryptocaryon irritans (most but not all strains) So, what do I advocate and why? I advocate TTM (see sticky) to eliminate ich from the picture, ideally with formalin dips in between cycles and prazipro twice one week apart. I try to sell some sort of doable quarantine process but not one that most people will never follow. Sure there is a gold standard marine biologist protocol, but it will never sell to the vast majority of folks here. If we are doing a literature review discussion, that is one thing, but if we are trying to create successful aquarists, it needs to be practical and not too labor intensive.
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01/14/2016, 07:11 AM | #2 |
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Steve, I have started implementing your qt protocol. TTM with formalin dip in between. Then 2 rounds of prazi 5 days apart.
Is there any species of fish you would skip the formalin dip on, such as wrasse? Thank you for all the information you provide all of us. |
01/14/2016, 07:24 AM | #3 | |
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01/14/2016, 11:20 PM | #4 | |
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01/15/2016, 02:02 AM | #5 | |
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I also suspect that half the claimed losses to ich here are actually rather due to velvet or brook. Also there is a difference between a 45 minute short term exposure vs. soaking a fish for several weeks or even months in a toxin at barely tolerable levels. A toxin that btw is also diminishing its immune system. Against copper further speaks that it is only a reliable treatment against ich, which of all protozoan parasites is the only one treated easily by non-toxic means: Tank Transfers or hyposalinity (whatever floats your boat or you are more comfortable with) or both (in case of the Taiwanese low salinity strains). The things formalin is used against (velvet, brook, uronema, trichodina,...) have no such easy and rather gentle treatment options. And they can kill so fast that you hardly have time to react. Velvet may be treated with CP, but pipefish, seahorses, wrasses and possibly other fish can't tolerate it. For all the other parasites formalin is pretty much the only reliable treatment or prevention option. There are many things classified as carcinogens (some you eat or inhale daily), but first off those ratings are primarily for humans or mammals. Secondly and more important, most carcinogens require rather long term or repeated exposure. (FYI: in the US formaldehyde is still allowed to be used in hardwood plywood, particle board, and medium density fiberboard - all stuff you find in your home) Third, all other medications that may actually be effective require longer exposure and have usually more severe side effects. I try to limit it to one prophylactic bath per fish, unless they show symptoms of an infection that requires further treatment. So far no fish actually needed a repeat treatment. In the end, giving your new fish a prophylactic formalin dip is the lesser of many evils, and advocating against it or scaring people from doing it may actually cost more fish lives than the possible cancer those fish may develop 10 or 20 years later.
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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio 3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +... |
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01/15/2016, 06:20 AM | #6 | |
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01/15/2016, 07:02 AM | #7 | |
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01/15/2016, 08:55 AM | #8 |
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In the case of velvet, it sounds like as hobbyists, we hardly stand a chance of treating this disease even in a QT environment. If it is almost always "too late" once symptoms are seen, what is the point? Has anyone here actually cured a fish of velvet using recommended treatments once you have seen symptoms? If so, please explain what treatment you used and how long it took to cure the fish. I am (again) somewhat going through what i believe is a velvet outbreak. Even though I treated all incoming fish with a formalin dip followed by a methalyne blue dip. CP has not worked for me in the past so right now I am treating all remaining fish with Coppersafe.
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01/15/2016, 10:10 AM | #9 | |
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01/15/2016, 10:18 AM | #10 | |
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I've yet to try acriflavine on uronema so I cannot say whether or not it works on that. |
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01/15/2016, 11:10 AM | #11 | |
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"Acriflavin does work against some bacterial, fungal, and parasitic infections (Noga, 2000). I even found reference to Acriflavin at a concentration of 6 ppm working against reproduction in tomonts (Paperna, 1984). That is the plus side. The downside is it is reportedly not as effective as other agents against any kind of infection, be it bacterial, fungal, or parasitic (Noga, 2000). It also discolors the water, which is particularly problematic in a reef tank with photosynthetic organisms requiring light to produce energy, and it can be toxic to some fish (Gratzek et al, 1992). Its potential toxicity to some fish does not bode well for its use in a complex ecosystem such as a mature reef aquarium. Along with that, its broad-spectrum nature (i.e., it can kill some bacteria, fungi, and parasites) concerns me with its use in a reef display.
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01/15/2016, 12:25 PM | #12 | |||
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I also prefer to take a closer critical look at research papers - they all are flawed in one way or the other due to their need to restrict things. But how you ask a question already determins the kind of answer you are getting. This applies especially to the immunity research on ich and other protozoan parasites. The findings are good, but not necessarily all including. So I never take their findings straight as the word of god but rather also compare it to my own observations and those of others here. And that indicates to me that most, if not all fish are capable of acquiring full immunity given that they are fit and in a low stress environment. The last point is the key here - low stress environment! Unfortunately too many hobbyists go more by which fish they want and not by which fish they actually can keep (I've been guilty of that myself). Also too many do not even try to adjust to the most basic needs of the fish. So it is no surprise to me that many are in a constant battles with ich while others have no issues at all despite even forgoing quarantine (though forgoing quarantine is one thing I would never advocate). I would also not advocate to a novice to let their fish fight it out with ich, but rather prevent ich from getting into their system. Quote:
That's why I rather stick to what is known to be effective and treat against these prophylactic. Doing a short term formalin bath is just to easy to skip it and take a chance. I've done it with juvenile Regal angels, tiny pipefish and everything else I have and so far none showed even signs of serious discomfort. Also, as far as I can tell none of the fish stopped eating due to the formalin. I will give Acriflavine a try, but found also reports that it failed in some cases. The way formalin works is more blunt, but for that reason also more effective against all parasites that are on the skin (it doesn't treat ich because it is protected under the skin). Quote:
CP, while effective against velvet, may fail due to a variety of reasons: - product too old - bacteria in the tank break it down into ineffective byproducts (don't use bacterial starters with CP) - decays under light and especially UV influence - there is no easy hobbyist test method, so you don't know if your dosage is still right after a few hours or days + some fish just can't handle it and others may react negatively to long term exposure. Copper is dicey against velvet. It may suppress it or even kill it if the dosage is right. But there are strains of velvet that have adapted to tolerate copper at doses that would kill fish. It stands to reason that due to the widespread low dose copper use in the supply chain, those copper resistant strains are likely to be just there. Methylene Blue or Malachite Green also have side effects and are far less effective than formalin. Almost all alternatives to formalin I'm aware off are less certain and would require rather long term exposure of the medication to the fish = more risk of log term damage. One also needs to keep in mind that fish are only one way to get those parasites into your tank. Corals, inverts, rocks,... anything wet can bring them in as well. And all those can't be dipped.
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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio 3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +... |
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01/15/2016, 12:32 PM | #13 | |
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01/15/2016, 12:32 PM | #14 |
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No corals or inverts or anything else added that did not get a formalin dip
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01/15/2016, 12:38 PM | #15 |
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Are you sure it was velvet?
Also, if the fish has more than a light infection, a series of baths and transfers will be required. One single bath is just general precaution, actual treatment requires daily dips for a minimum of 5 days. BTW: I wouldn't buy any fish from a system where one or more fish show signs of velvet, brook or uronema. The risks are just too great.
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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio 3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +... |
01/15/2016, 12:48 PM | #16 |
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It's mind boggling, all fish that have gone in looked healthy and eating. No visible signs at all so there was no reason for multiple dips over time. I'm not an expert so I'm only speculating its velvet.
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01/15/2016, 12:59 PM | #17 | |
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Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs Current Tank Info: 625g, 220g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 3 MP60s, MP40. Several QTs |
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01/15/2016, 01:21 PM | #18 |
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So, one formalin bath before one of the tank transfers?
Trying to plan my prophylactic QT procedures. How does this look: Day 1-2: Let fish recover from shipping, start eating. Day 3: First TT + First round of Prazi Day 6: Second TT Day 9: Formalin Bath + Third Transfer Day 12: Fourth TT + Second round of Prazi Day 15: Final Transfer into QT Anything missing or off at all? |
01/15/2016, 01:27 PM | #19 | |
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01/15/2016, 01:40 PM | #20 | |
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01/15/2016, 01:42 PM | #21 | |
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Also, the write ups of "solutions" we all read do not specify very well the circumstances in which they are effective and I always take them with a grain (or pinch) of salt.
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01/15/2016, 02:39 PM | #22 | |||
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So often well known parasites gets blamed by hobbyists while the real culprit might be someone entirely different... Quote:
Though the cost of running such a system makes it unsustainable for most hobbyists. UV works best to minimize the spread of diseases in a multi tank system like you find at stores or wholesalers. But the UV unit needs to be after the filter and the return pump so that the already cleaned water is sterilized before going to the individual tanks. The returns of all tanks have then to go directly into the filter and not into another tank. This is the application where it makes actually the most sense and where you find the most UV units. Quote:
If you want to be sure it would be best to do a dip right before the fish are transferred into the next tank.
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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio 3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +... |
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01/15/2016, 03:07 PM | #23 | |
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Questions I have: 1. You said "first" formalin dip. Should I do more than one? 2. When you say "before even putting the fish into QT" do you mean right out of the shipping bag, before TTM? Or right after TTM, before going into full QT? |
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01/15/2016, 03:12 PM | #24 | |
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Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs Current Tank Info: 625g, 220g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 3 MP60s, MP40. Several QTs |
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01/15/2016, 03:14 PM | #25 | |
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Fish are not disposable commodities, but a worthwhile investment that can be maintained and enjoyed for many years, providing one is willing to take the time to understand their requirements and needs Current Tank Info: 625g, 220g sump, RD3 230w, Vectra L1 on a closed loop, 3 MP60s, MP40. Several QTs |
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