Deep diving idiot! planning my first mareef tank.

[mishael]

Hello to you fine ladies and gentlemen from across the globe,who have gathered here around the oceanwater tank hobby
Im Michael,a young guy from a place theres too much ******** politics about,so i guess that doesnt matter....have been fishkeeping for years,but never had the budget or courage to start up an oceanwater tank,until now anyway. these days i own a 70gal discus and angelfish tank and a 15gal shrimp tank.both planted....

I have come to this community seeking good criticism and advice on my way to setting up my first tank...

the plan is to build a budget "low tech" reef tank, populated by fish with the unique shapes and colors you just dont get in freshwater fish-such as butterfly fish and marine gobys,a couple of invertebrates (cleaner shrimp,emerald crab etc) and some soft/SPS corals.....and pardon the blasphemy,but what about some macro algae?


the tank:60-70 gals. thats what i can afford,and what i have room for. there will be no sump i guess....best i can do glue some extra plastic to the back of the tank for it to be a sump.....but is it that important?
to get rid of phosphates that would make their way into the tank via food,can i not use one of my old canister filters filled with phosphate remover and maybe some nitrate remover if the need arises? would a back sump be a useful addition for filtration?

the lighting:still unsure,will probably use LED strips,about 30-20 watts in total, white and blue lighting,5 to 1 ratio.

rocks:.....ill probably go with dry,dead rock.....we dont have fresh live rock around here,best i can get is "live" rock from coral display tank sumps of aquarium stores,but the prices are astronomic.....So,any tips on helping the dead rock come to life? do "filter starters" and ""bottled bacteria" that are so often sold for freshwater tanks like seachems "stability"for example do anything in that heavy,dense marine water? any other substances i can use to speed up the cycle? and how do i get those mysterious micro flora and fauna in?

sand: live sand is impossible to get all together in my country,so it will have to be dry,dead coral sand....deep sand bed vs shallow sand bed? what are the pros and cons? im concidering of adding some macro algae to the tank,so im pretty much going to need a deep sand bed,no?

circulation: 2 660 gal/h wavemakers on opposite corners of the tank....would that be enough?too much?too little?

skrimmer: to skrim or not to skrim,that is the question.....ive seen a mighty lot of reef tanks running beautifully without a skrimmer,which ive heard so many nightmarish stories about....like how hard it is to get to work right for example,the cheaper ones anyway.....how mandatory is it? if i understand correctly,it will help increase the bioload i can put in my tank,and bombard it with nitrates? or did i get it all wrong?

temperature control: heating is no issue,chilling is where im screwed....the summers here are long and hot,about 3 celcious degrees hotter then recommended for most of even the hardiest corals....id add a chiller to the tank,but they cost as much as everything else combined ....any budget chilling ideas? or theres no poor mans way here?

the population im hopping for,eventually:
fish:
ive mostly been searching for fish that are nothing alike fish i could throw in my freshwater tanks,this is what ive come up with,please do let me know if im overstocking or if some of the fish wont get along well with another. (i know i mention a long list,but most of these fish are so tiny....are they really gonna produce THAT much waste?)
x1 black shrimp goby
x2-3 zebra dartfish
x1 emerald crab
x1 green branded goby
x2-3 firefish
x1 flame hawkfish
x1 purple tang
x1 japanese anthias
x1 neon psedochromis
x1 copperbrand butterfly fish
x1 longnose butterfly fish
x1 perc clown
x2 cleaner shrimp
x1 spider crab.

corals and plants:
this iswhere im very weak.....and would be happy to hear recommendations about relatively easy eye candy softies,LPS,polyps and some macro algae,if i can add some to the tank without it causing harm?


Thanks you to everyone whos put time into reading this whole thing,and even more to those who chose to comment and give their advice and help me out,best wishes

[SammyL]

Just curious but where do you live?

[bat21]

You can get mostly dry rock, and just a small portion live rock, and that will help seed the rest of your rock.

You seem to want a lot of fish, so a skimmer is most likely going to be necessary.

You can point a fan at your tank to help with cooling, and if you don't have a cover on the tank, it will also keep the temp down.

Cross off tangs and butterfly fish. 60-70 gallons is too small for them. A hawkfish will eat your shrimp. 3 firefish will eventually become 1. And there is a chance that your crabs could make a snack of small fish. and stocking limits are not just about waste, its about your inhabitants being comfortable. Fish claim territories or caves as their own, and competition over these areas will lead to stress, fighting, and possible death.

[lpsouth1978]

Originally Posted by mishael

Hello to you fine ladies and gentlemen from across the globe,who have gathered here around the oceanwater tank hobby
Im Michael,a young guy from a place theres too much ******** politics about,so i guess that doesnt matter....have been fishkeeping for years,but never had the budget or courage to start up an oceanwater tank,until now anyway. these days i own a 70gal discus and angelfish tank and a 15gal shrimp tank.both planted....
Welcome Michael!

I have come to this community seeking good criticism and advice on my way to setting up my first tank...

the plan is to build a budget "low tech" reef tank, populated by fish with the unique shapes and colors you just dont get in freshwater fish-such as butterfly fish and marine gobys,a couple of invertebrates (cleaner shrimp,emerald crab etc) and some soft/SPS corals.....and pardon the blasphemy,but what about some macro algae?
There is nothing wrong with macro in a display, just has different requirements than some.


the tank:60-70 gals. thats what i can afford,and what i have room for. there will be no sump i guess....best i can do glue some extra plastic to the back of the tank for it to be a sump.....but is it that important?
to get rid of phosphates that would make their way into the tank via food,can i not use one of my old canister filters filled with phosphate remover and maybe some nitrate remover if the need arises? would a back sump be a useful addition for filtration?
If possible, I would drill the tank and add a sump. Not only is it a better form of filtration, but gives you somewhere to put all of the equipment that will otherwise crowd the display tank. As for using a canister with phosphate remover, it may not be impossible, but you do not want the media to tumble and grind against each other. A clear canister that allows you to see the media inside is ideal.

the lighting:still unsure,will probably use LED strips,about 30-20 watts in total, white and blue lighting,5 to 1 ratio.
This may be enough for some softies, zoas, and mushrooms. Most LPS will require more light and NO SPS would do well under that.

rocks:.....ill probably go with dry,dead rock.....we dont have fresh live rock around here,best i can get is "live" rock from coral display tank sumps of aquarium stores,but the prices are astronomic.....So,any tips on helping the dead rock come to life? do "filter starters" and ""bottled bacteria" that are so often sold for freshwater tanks like seachems "stability"for example do anything in that heavy,dense marine water? any other substances i can use to speed up the cycle? and how do i get those mysterious micro flora and fauna in?

sand: live sand is impossible to get all together in my country,so it will have to be dry,dead coral sand....deep sand bed vs shallow sand bed? what are the pros and cons? im concidering of adding some macro algae to the tank,so im pretty much going to need a deep sand bed,no?

Dry rock and sand are just fine. You will just have to wait longer for the cycle to complete. If you want to add ant "Bottled Bacteria", just make sure you get a good one. Many of them are just "snake oil" and do nothing to benefit your system.
circulation: 2 660 gal/h wavemakers on opposite corners of the tank....would that be enough?too much?too little?

Maybe. That will depend on what corals you get. I would recommend getting a couple of Jebao RW-8 pumps. They are affordable and move a lot of water. You can also dial back the flow to get exactly what you need.
skrimmer: to skrim or not to skrim,that is the question.....ive seen a mighty lot of reef tanks running beautifully without a skrimmer,which ive heard so many nightmarish stories about....like how hard it is to get to work right for example,the cheaper ones anyway.....how mandatory is it? if i understand correctly,it will help increase the bioload i can put in my tank,and bombard it with nitrates? or did i get it all wrong?

A skimmer is not a necessity, but reduces the number of water changes you will have to do, and increases your max bio load. To my knowledge they do not bombard the tank with nitrates. On the contrary, they will remove waste before it has the opportunity to be broken down into nitrates.
temperature control: heating is no issue,chilling is where im screwed....the summers here are long and hot,about 3 celcious degrees hotter then recommended for most of even the hardiest corals....id add a chiller to the tank,but they cost as much as everything else combined ....any budget chilling ideas? or theres no poor mans way here?

No help here. I have an A/C and have no need for a chiller.
the population im hopping for,eventually:
fish:
ive mostly been searching for fish that are nothing alike fish i could throw in my freshwater tanks,this is what ive come up with,please do let me know if im overstocking or if some of the fish wont get along well with another. (i know i mention a long list,but most of these fish are so tiny....are they really gonna produce THAT much waste?)
x1 black shrimp goby
x2-3 zebra dartfish
x1 emerald crab
x1 green branded goby
x2-3 firefish
x1 flame hawkfish
x1 purple tang
x1 japanese anthias
x1 neon psedochromis
x1 copperbrand butterfly fish
x1 longnose butterfly fish
x1 perc clown
x2 cleaner shrimp
x1 spider crab.

That is a VERY large bioload for a 70 gallon tank. In particular, the purple tang will need a larger tank, as well as the butterfies. I would also leave out the spider crab, they are notorious for eating fish. I am not a big fan of pseudochromis as they can become VERY aggressive.

corals and plants:
this iswhere im very weak.....and would be happy to hear recommendations about relatively easy eye candy softies,LPS,polyps and some macro algae,if i can add some to the tank without it causing harm?

Hammerhead, frogspawn, duncans, zoas. I also like green toadstool leathers and Kenya trees for movement, though Kenya trees can become a bit of a weed.


Thanks you to everyone whos put time into reading this whole thing,and even more to those who chose to comment and give their advice and help me out,best wishes

Hope this helps.

[mishael]

Originally Posted by bat21

hmm yeah i guess ill try to add some bits of live rock,should have thought of that.....and thanks for the other feedback ,espcailly about the hawkfish.....didnt notice that one type can get pretty large and more aggresive then the others...it would eat the gobys,not just shrimp
the tang should probably gotoo....but oh man,not the butterflies...theres gotta be room for atleast 1 of them,right ?
but,about the emerald crab,isnt it a mostly vegan creature that does a great job at gettng rid of nasty stuff like bubble algae?
and arent firefish a shoaling fish?

lpsouth1978

thank you very much for your feedback also. and for clearing the fact that macro algae and corals can live happily together first of all :P

sadly adding a sump below the tank is not a possability for me.....best i can do is grab some glass and silicone it onto the inside of the tank,cutting off a bit of it for use as a sump....and the media doesnt really tumble and grind against each other that much,it sits nice and tight in little baskets the skrimmer,if i were to add one,would be a hang-on,on the side of the tank.

as for lighting,well,i wasnt gonna get any of the hardier stuff anyway...thanks for clearing that up too.

could you recommand any good brand of filter starters?

are wavemakers not preferable over pumps,because of they way they move the water?

thanks for clearing up that skrimmers also remove nitrates.

yeah,i guess the tang really does have to go,and same for the spider crab....but why cant there be some dwarf reef safe butterflies like there are dwarf angels,ugh

and thanks alot for the coral and algea names,found a few interesting ones there,will start trying to desgin some stuff with them

[lpsouth1978]

Originally Posted by mishael

...could you recommand any good brand of filter starters?

are wavemakers not preferable over pumps,because of they way they move the water?

I use the Fritzyme products for bacterial additives, but have also heard good things about Bio-Spira.

The Jebao RW-8 is a wavemaker pump, the big difference is the amount of water it moves. You said the pumps you want are 600gph, the RW-8 are 180-2100gph. They have several different wave and water movement settings, the flow is fully adjustable, and they can be linked together wirelessly.

[CStrickland]

The thing about algae and corals in the same tank is that the same things that help algae grow: phosphates and nitrates mostly, are not very good for coral - especially sps. Like you would put fertilizer, or even poop, on your garden and the plants would grow really nice from all the phos and nitrates. Those nutrients get in the way of coral growing, the point of a skimmer for example is to take them out. You will see threads where people use algae as a tool because as it grow it takes that nutrition out of the water, and then they trim it and throw the "leaves" away. I keep a couple shaving brush in my tank, I can tell by how fast they are growing and what color they are whether my filtration is doing a good job keeping the fertilizer out of the water. If they look too healthy something is wrong.

Finding a just right balance where there is enough fertilizer in the water to grow beautiful plants and not too much for picky coral is waaay hard. You'll see tanks that have a bit of neat algae here and there, but most people prioritize. Some say that in nature where sps grow, there isn't algae, some say there is but fish and stuff eat it. Idk. Most of us are shooting for less than 10 nitrates, and less than .003 phos, not much green grows with that little food.

You have skimmers confused with filters that catch stuff from the water without removing it. A skimmer makes a lot of bubbles that push a scummy foam to overflow into a cup. That takes the scum out of the water entirely. Filter floss, or filter socks, hard to clean rocks in the sump, or bioballs all trap leftover food and poop from fish or bacteria and other scum-components and hold them in a place where the water is rushing through at a fastish speed. All of the oxygen in that circulating water makes a good home for the bacteria to eat those bits up and turn them into nitrates, but the other bacteria that get the nitrates out of the tank as bubbles of gas need a quieter place with less oxygen, like underneath the first set of bacteria or way deep in the rocks. The nitrate-factory types of filtration upset that balance and raise your levels by keeping stuff in the water to rot.

Read the stickies at the top of the forum and submit your fish list to the "check your purchases" thread. There's a lot of great info around here and everyone's happy to help.
Welcome!

[mishael]

Thank you both for the tips and info....hmm,is there some kind of general formula about how many times an hour my aquarium should be moved by all the pumps in a "low tech" reef tank?

[toothybugs]

"Low tech" I think you mean as "simple" - most of us like 10-20x turnover per hour for flow rates. Me, I like 20-25. I run a pair of RW8s in a 40B.

BTW only 1 firefish in a tank like yours. And I'd stay away from SPS in your first, fish-heavy system.

[juniorrocketdad]

Originally Posted by mishael

Hello to you fine ladies and gentlemen from across the globe,who have gathered here around the oceanwater tank hobby
Im Michael,a young guy from a place theres too much ******** politics about,so i guess that doesnt matter....have been fishkeeping for years,but never had the budget or courage to start up an oceanwater tank,until now anyway. these days i own a 70gal discus and angelfish tank and a 15gal shrimp tank.both planted....

I have come to this community seeking good criticism and advice on my way to setting up my first tank...

the plan is to build a budget "low tech" reef tank, populated by fish with the unique shapes and colors you just dont get in freshwater fish-such as butterfly fish and marine gobys,a couple of invertebrates (cleaner shrimp,emerald crab etc) and some soft/SPS corals.....and pardon the blasphemy,but what about some macro algae?


the tank:60-70 gals. thats what i can afford,and what i have room for. there will be no sump i guess....best i can do glue some extra plastic to the back of the tank for it to be a sump.....but is it that important?
to get rid of phosphates that would make their way into the tank via food,can i not use one of my old canister filters filled with phosphate remover and maybe some nitrate remover if the need arises? would a back sump be a useful addition for filtration?

the lighting:still unsure,will probably use LED strips,about 30-20 watts in total, white and blue lighting,5 to 1 ratio.

rocks:.....ill probably go with dry,dead rock.....we dont have fresh live rock around here,best i can get is "live" rock from coral display tank sumps of aquarium stores,but the prices are astronomic.....So,any tips on helping the dead rock come to life? do "filter starters" and ""bottled bacteria" that are so often sold for freshwater tanks like seachems "stability"for example do anything in that heavy,dense marine water? any other substances i can use to speed up the cycle? and how do i get those mysterious micro flora and fauna in?

sand: live sand is impossible to get all together in my country,so it will have to be dry,dead coral sand....deep sand bed vs shallow sand bed? what are the pros and cons? im concidering of adding some macro algae to the tank,so im pretty much going to need a deep sand bed,no?

circulation: 2 660 gal/h wavemakers on opposite corners of the tank....would that be enough?too much?too little?

skrimmer: to skrim or not to skrim,that is the question.....ive seen a mighty lot of reef tanks running beautifully without a skrimmer,which ive heard so many nightmarish stories about....like how hard it is to get to work right for example,the cheaper ones anyway.....how mandatory is it? if i understand correctly,it will help increase the bioload i can put in my tank,and bombard it with nitrates? or did i get it all wrong?

temperature control: heating is no issue,chilling is where im screwed....the summers here are long and hot,about 3 celcious degrees hotter then recommended for most of even the hardiest corals....id add a chiller to the tank,but they cost as much as everything else combined ....any budget chilling ideas? or theres no poor mans way here?

the population im hopping for,eventually:
fish:
ive mostly been searching for fish that are nothing alike fish i could throw in my freshwater tanks,this is what ive come up with,please do let me know if im overstocking or if some of the fish wont get along well with another. (i know i mention a long list,but most of these fish are so tiny....are they really gonna produce THAT much waste?)
x1 black shrimp goby
x2-3 zebra dartfish

Will become one

x1 emerald crab

Could eat small fish and coral so be careful

x1 green branded goby
x2-3 firefish

Will become one

x1 flame hawkfish

Will eat shrimp and is aggressive so add last with no shrimp in the tank if you want one

x1 purple tang

Need much larger tank, you might be able to get a bristle tooth tang in a 70 gallon but it is borderline too small

x1 japanese anthias

Needs to be fed several times a day

x1 neon psedochromis
x1 copperbrand butterfly fish

Very fragile fish, won't survive with any aggressive eating fish

x1 longnose butterfly fish

I can't remember why these fish are so bad off the top of my head but I remember that they are not reef safe and probably have similar restrictions as the copper band

x1 perc clown
x2 cleaner shrimp
x1 spider crab.

Nasty little crabs will eat fish and coral if it has the opportunity since all crabs are opportunistic feeders

corals and plants:
this iswhere im very weak.....and would be happy to hear recommendations about relatively easy eye candy softies,LPS,polyps and some macro algae,if i can add some to the tank without it causing harm?

I would either go with coral or macro algae, as previously stated they don't go well together but it can be done.


Thanks you to everyone whos put time into reading this whole thing,and even more to those who chose to comment and give their advice and help me out,best wishes

[bat21]

Originally Posted by mishael

hmm yeah i guess ill try to add some bits of live rock,should have thought of that.....and thanks for the other feedback ,espcailly about the hawkfish.....didnt notice that one type can get pretty large and more aggresive then the others...it would eat the gobys,not just shrimp
the tang should probably gotoo....but oh man,not the butterflies...theres gotta be room for atleast 1 of them,right ?
but,about the emerald crab,isnt it a mostly vegan creature that does a great job at gettng rid of nasty stuff like bubble algae?
and arent firefish a shoaling fish?

The dimensions of the tank are also critical for what fish you can have. If the tank is 4 feet long, then it is in the realm of possibility that you could have one of the smaller butterfly fish, but if it were me, since I have a 66gallon and know its size very well, I would not add a tang or butterfly. I think once you set up the tank and add a bunch of small fish, you will agree with me that it would seem cruel to put such a large fish in there. I initially wanted a Kole tang, but now after having my tank setup for a while, would not even consider adding a kole tang, even though it is the smallest tang.

I don't have emerald crabs, but I have seen many people talk about them eating their fish.

And firefish, like chromis, seem like they should be in groups, since they always are when you see them at a fish store, but especially in small tanks like you are planning, they inevitably kill eachother until one or 2 survive. I only bought one firefish because of the many, many experiences I read about on this site of people with multiples.

[mishael]

juniorrocketdad

thank you for all the advice

Originally Posted by bat21

The dimensions of the tank are also critical for what fish you can have. If the tank is 4 feet long, then it is in the realm of possibility that you could have one of the smaller butterfly fish, but if it were me, since I have a 66gallon and know its size very well, I would not add a tang or butterfly. I think once you set up the tank and add a bunch of small fish, you will agree with me that it would seem cruel to put such a large fish in there. I initially wanted a Kole tang, but now after having my tank setup for a while, would not even consider adding a kole tang, even though it is the smallest tang.

I don't have emerald crabs, but I have seen many people talk about them eating their fish.

And firefish, like chromis, seem like they should be in groups, since they always are when you see them at a fish store, but especially in small tanks like you are planning, they inevitably kill eachother until one or 2 survive. I only bought one firefish because of the many, many experiences I read about on this site of people with multiples.

hmm,well i guess ill stick to 1 of each of those shiny pretty gobys....which i guess is good,i like variety in my tank and only thought of getting a few of each because ive read in a few fish indexes that they are shoaling fish....
and are saltwater fish really that needy in terms of space? i mean,ive had discus in a 70 gal tank without issues,and they're nearly the same size as the butterflies....

[toothybugs]

You can't compare freshwater and saltwater fish. Size is irrelevant. The fish's aggression levels (damsels etc guard a home turf fiercely despite their small size) and/or swimming styles (tangs and parrotfish cover a LOT of distance in a day) dictate their required tank sizes.

[CStrickland]

+1
Idk anything about discus's but it's good to remember that a lot of our fish come from the ocean, so it's more like a tiger than a housecat with many generations of domestic life in the gene pool. Battling each other for space and food is necessary and doesn't go away that quick