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10/15/2021, 11:42 PM | #1 |
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what coral (besides xenia) to take up nitrate?
I'm doing an experiment. Looking to maintain stability using the system instead of doing water changes or using chemicals.
This is a fishless tank with an in-tank DSB. The tank hasn't had a water change in over a year, nor any dosing or addition of anything during that time. The skimmer was off, but I turned it on a few days ago. Phosphate is below detection using color chart, but nitrate looks like about 10. I have theories about the nitrate, but I think I just need to find the right biological solution for it, regardless of the cause. I used cheap test kits because the better ones expired, but I'm chasing stability, not numbers. Sad thing is, as long as I'm experimenting, I can't have fish. I have a pipe dream to one day be able to keep fish in it and still not have to do water changes - I doubt that dream will ever come true, so I'll just put fish off until I can stop working 6 days a week (in like 10 years.....). |
10/16/2021, 12:57 AM | #2 |
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Fish don't mind nitrate as much as corals do, IME. On the other hand, also IME, the best way to handle nitrate is a better skimmer. I just finished a 2 year stint in which I was unable to do any water change or even get frozen food for my fish, and even the skimmer failed. The fish did ok. The corals, not so much. I'm now on a program of aggressive water changes, and have proper food again, plus the skimmer issue is solved. You can get by with an iffy situation much, much better if you have a potent skimmer taking care of waste the sandbed didn't handle.
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Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%. |
10/16/2021, 05:20 AM | #3 |
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All coral I know of will uptake nitrates. A skimmer doesn’t really pull nitrates from the system. It pulls organics before they break down into nitrates nitrites and ammonia.
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Originally posted by yellowslayer13: "I hate that hole" Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS |
10/16/2021, 11:55 AM | #4 | |
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The coral that will take up the most nitrates is the one that grows fastest. The problem with that is that if you get a fast-growing coral with the idea that it's job is to consume nitrates, sooner or later you'll end up with a single species coral reef, as any fast-growing coral worth its salt will overgrow other, slower-growing corals. Kevin
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Back in the pool, swimming with the sharks... Current Tank Info: Red Sea 425XL w/Kessil AP700, Vertex 180i Skimmer, 2 x Vortech MP40s |
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10/16/2021, 12:56 PM | #5 | |
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I don't ordinarily keep things like xenia, but decided I should try using it. But I don't want all this xenia everywhere, so I'm thinking maybe there are some soft corals that aren't particularly ugly and aren't as invasive as xenia. I'm not about to let that stuff touch my primary liverock structures. |
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10/16/2021, 01:28 PM | #6 | |
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I know all corals use nitrate, just looking for the ones that will take more than the rest. I haven't been putting food in the tank, so I felt like my skimmer, a Reef Octopus, didn't need to be running. I've been taking a baster to my liverock over the past few days, so I turned on the skimmer. |
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10/17/2021, 07:02 AM | #7 |
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Well, to be blunt, looking at the research and the issues hydrophillic and refractory DOC can cause with healthy microbial processes and corals and our inability to test or monitor for healthy and unhealthy DOC it strikes me as unrealistic to keep corals anywhere close to their life expectancies without water changes.
Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00004/art00011 Amino acids a source of nitrogen for corals https://journals.biologists.com/jeb/...o-acids-by-the Urea a source of nitrogen for corals https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...22098105005538 Diazotrpophs a source of nitrogen for corals https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27335448/ Context Dependant Effects of Nutrient Loading on the Coral-Algal Mutualism https://www.researchgate.net/publica...lgal_mutualism https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...D254623FD3C7C# An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals Phosphate Deficiency: Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching: https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate1661 Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...015.00103/full Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...601?via%3Dihub Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...22098111004588 High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wi...Vm0sG8_0vth6lq https://therichross.com/skeptical-re...and-phosphate/ Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...8.2006.00937.x Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism. Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy). https://peerj.com/articles/108/?utm_...medium=TrendMD Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps...4/m314p119.pdf Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0027973 Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species. Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium. http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps...4/m294p173.pdf Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae https://peerj.com/articles/106/ Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719127/ Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs https://www.nature.com/articles/nmicrobiol201661 Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23303369 Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/gcb.13695 Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution (here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing) https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...66445X19307192 Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton https://www.nature.com/articles/ismej2017142 Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22944243 Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27795310 Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22957055 Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23028648 Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs. https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf Global microbialization of coral reefs DDAM Proven https://www.nature.com/articles/nmicrobiol201642 Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...9/figure/fig3/ Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes https://msystems.asm.org/content/msy...62-17.full.pdf Element cycling on tropical coral reefs. This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.) https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/f...letethesis.pdf Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4191 Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381 Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop. Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wi...365-2435.12758 Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus. https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ce_Sponge_loop Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934968/ The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments. https://search.proquest.com/openview...l=18750&diss=y And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column. Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28828261 Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 1 https://reefs.com/magazine/the-devel...r-performance/ Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 2 https://reefs.com/magazine/further-s...r-performance/ Elemental Analysis of Skimmate https://reefs.com/magazine/elemental...quarium-water/ Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water https://reefs.com/magazine/bacterial...on-filtration/ "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title, both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R2BMEfQGjU Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7hsp0dENEA Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont https://youtu.be/DWItFGRQJL4 BActeria and Sponges https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oLDclO7UcM Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end) https://youtu.be/dGIPveFJ_0Q Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching https://youtu.be/oadKezUYkJE Richard Ross What's up with phosphate" https://youtu.be/ZRIKW-9d2xI
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10/17/2021, 09:53 AM | #8 |
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I had a bad dino outbreak recently and was told it was because I had 0 Nitrate and 0 Phosphate. After raising my phosphates to .03 and my nitrates to 5 the dinos have mostly disappeared but the cyano is starting to take over. While the cyano is ugly, it is better than the dinos that were upsetting my corals. I will let others chime in because this concept is new to me but you may not want to take your nitrates to 0 especially if you don't have an algae problem.
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10/17/2021, 03:20 PM | #9 |
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Stability is the name of the game!
Interesting experiment, but not sure if you can get to the stability you are looking for without fish (or dosing to simulate the fish). You may achieve stability in the empty tank, but the minute you add a fish, the system has changed and will need to rebalance. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
10/17/2021, 08:37 PM | #10 | |
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10/17/2021, 08:49 PM | #11 | |
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The tank isn't empty, there are corals and micro-critters in it. I used to have a dottyback that made my micro brittles disappear, but I guess some were just hiding really well because I have a lot of them now. When I do eventually get fish, I want to try to find one(s) that can live off of pods, so I won't have to put food (or very little) in the tank. Mandarin dragonets are too sensitive, but ocellated dragonets ("scooter blennies" which aren't blennies) might be an option. I loved the pair I had years ago, they were adorable with their ritual behaviors. |
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