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Unread 05/02/2006, 08:39 PM   #51
douggiestyle
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ive called sw wilson and they wil sell the ti coil only. for a drop in style. $150 for just the coil


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Unread 05/02/2006, 10:57 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Melnick
Just a thought - I have seen some sort of product used on those home improvement shows for radiant floor heating. They run this flexable hose back and forth on the floor, cover it with wood or concrete and run hot water through it. Could have superior heat exchanging properties...
that my friend is PEX tubing...


it can even freeze with water in it, and not burst.

i worked for my dads plumbing and boiler shop for a few years. we used pex tubing for all of our in flooor heat installs. that stuff works great


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Unread 05/03/2006, 04:07 AM   #53
Cuby2k
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cuby2k
falconut made a great point about the growth, something that I hadn't considered.
I had credited falconut with the comment about growth inside of the tubing, it was actually first stated by H2OENG. My appologies.

One more thing for now, a closed loop of anything will require an expansion tank. In this case it would only have to be a small 5-gal bladder type but it will greatly reduce the stess on your components.

Because it would be a closed loop the pump could and in this case most likely have to be above the majority of the piping.

ok so that's 2 things for now.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 04:08 AM   #54
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Quote:

Oh and one more minor detail, It's CUBY, not CHUBY. Just a small item. ahem. [/B]
Sorry about that one...

Oh and by "under the slab" I guess I meant in contact vs burried under. It does make sense though, that the interior building temp would heat any material under. I guess the obvious answer is to go outside the foundation with any loops.
Marc


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Unread 05/03/2006, 04:24 AM   #55
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oops dbl post


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Unread 05/03/2006, 05:58 AM   #56
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Cuby2K - BeanAnimal was the person who came up with the critters in the pipe thought. Which is a very great point. Also, why is a expansion tank needed? Won't this now allow evaporation?

douggiestyle - Can I simply use this for my heat exchanger piping? And how can I tell if 3' is enough?

http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...gng.0&MID=9876

I'm assuming that I should be able to use the 1/2" Sch. 40 PVC for the entire loop (including the buried pipe) and just connect to the 1/2" ss gas line connector for the exchanger.

Again, does anybody know the formula or where I can determine how much of the buried pipe and how much of the gas line will be good enough to cool? I would hate to do all this work and find out that I didn't install enough pipe.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 07:01 AM   #57
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Is this too simple
As a heat exchanger?
Use a tank....say a 40 or 50 breeder 2 or 3 18x 18 squares of egg crate then "weave" ~ 100" feet of 1/4 poly tube through them. Of course if your underground loop is 1/2" you would need to make the "weave" multiple loops.
Run this heat exchanger tank after your main sump.

Falconut,
I'm not sure I'd use sch 40, it seems like that wall thickness would prevent it from being a good heat transfer? Do you know of anyone that has used it successfully ?

Marc


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Unread 05/03/2006, 08:22 AM   #58
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Marco67 - aquadw says he used 1" PVC pipe for his tank water system that worked fine. I'm assuming it was Sch. 40.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 09:55 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by falconut
Cuby2K - BeanAnimal was the person who came up with the critters in the pipe thought. Which is a very great point. Also, why is a expansion tank needed? Won't this now allow evaporation?


I'm assuming that I should be able to use the 1/2" Sch. 40 PVC for the entire loop (including the buried pipe) and just connect to the 1/2" ss gas line connector for the exchanger.

Again, does anybody know the formula or where I can determine how much of the buried pipe and how much of the gas line will be good enough to cool? I would hate to do all this work and find out that I didn't install enough pipe.

Well kudos to Bean then, thanks.

The expansion tank would be a bladder type, like the ones used in domestic hot water heaters, so it would still be a closed loop.

I think if you are going to all the trouble of burying the pipe you should go to 3/4", the heat transfer coefficient for plastic is so poor.

You a thought just hit me, and I will help with the numbers on this if needed but I am so behind in my work right now, if we are looking at a closed loop now, accepting that it will be tap water in the line and a heat exchanger is used in the sump, why not bury copper. (long sentence, is it any wonder I am behind in my work?)The heat transfer is so much better and is available in rolls of soft so it's easier to uncoil.

Give me a minute and I will look up the thermal transfer rates of a couple of different pipes.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 10:16 AM   #60
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I just stumbled onto this thread, great thoughts & ideas.
Has anyone given an thoughts to the best circulator pump for this system? I would think that a pump designed for radiant heated flooring applications would be appropriate. They are designed for continious duty and also to overcome the resistance of the long run of small (1/2") tubing. Fairly energy efficent if memory serves... I'll check my circulators for power consumption rating and post later.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 11:03 AM   #61
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Falconut, aquadw here, been following along.
I used 1" sch 40 alright for several reasons.
1. it's 5' underground, thats alot of weight on the pipe.
2. 1" slows the velocity of the water going throught the pipe as opposed to 3/4" or 1/2". the slow the water travels the better heat exchange.
3. 1" adds more water volume.
4. price for 1" is not much different.
I like the idea of the closed loop system but decided the open loop was alot more easier. However i never did consider the possibility of critters in the system. My sytem didn't run long enough to have that problem becaused we moved. I supposed you could filter it, but some micro stuff could still get by.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 11:09 AM   #62
falconut
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aquadw - I was really considering mimicing your setup for mine. But, then the critter response came up. And now I'm really thinking about it. How long was your setup running for?


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Unread 05/03/2006, 11:13 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by aquadw
...the slow the water travels the better heat exchange
No!!!!. Just the opposite!!!


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Unread 05/03/2006, 11:35 AM   #64
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xrunner1234 is right. The faster the flow rate, the thinner the laminar sublayer, the higher the overall heat transfer coefficient.

I think what aquadw is thinking of is temperature change. The longer the water is in contact with the cold pipe the more heat it can reject to it. This does not result in a more efficient heat exchanger though.

I'll probably run some numbers tonight or tomorrow night. If nothing else I'll post the equations so you can run your own numbers.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 11:38 AM   #65
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The other point is that the greater the temperature differential, the faster the heat transfer. You don't want the coolant to come anywhere near the temperature if the liquid being cooled. Speeing the coolant through the system greatly helps this.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 11:55 AM   #66
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Still liking the idea of a simple open loop and AQUADW layout of 2 PHs(one cooling on demand other so water doesn't stagnate).

I've opened up some PVC that was tied to a 300gph PH. After about a year+ use, all it had was more of a slime coating than anything else.

There's a thread on reefs.org where a reefer is gravity feeding buried loop from tank to sump.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 11:58 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChemE

I'll probably run some numbers tonight or tomorrow night. If nothing else I'll post the equations so you can run your own numbers.
That would be awesome! I have been trying to get around to it but have been swamped. The prelim stuff I ran indicated that you are probably going to want to use a 3/4" pipe and run it at a max of 3.5 FPS. I am estimating that we want to dump about 1/2 of a ton of heat to the earth, maybe a little less (1500 w x 3.41) and using a 3 deg F DT we are looking at 4 GPM. I think that is do-able.

One thing is the thermal coefficient of the pipe vs cost. Options could be pe, pex, pvc or I think copper is a viable option here. More cost per foot but the transfer rate is so much better I suspect you could get by with 1/5 the length of pipe.

Good bedding, moist soil, and proper depth are going to play a big part in it all.

Sheesh, I have GOT to get back to work. This is a fun project!


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Unread 05/03/2006, 12:19 PM   #68
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Thanks, everybody. I'll wait to see what types of numbers are floating out there.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 01:03 PM   #69
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Yes Chem, that is what i was trying to say. The slower the water the longer contact time to lower the temp of the incoming water. I realized the use of pvc wasn't the most efficient but it was cheap and availiable, so i guessed and just made it extra long for safety margin.

My system was running for only about 6 months so it by all means was not tested long term. The long term benefits are of course very important. Wish mine was still running.

All my engineering of the system was using the WAG system. You guys seem to be getting way to technical for me. But i am having fun reading.

Don't remember if anyone has mentioned this but i believe GARP reef systems also use a open loop system for there coral frag tanks. Someone might check with them to see how there system work(ed).


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Unread 05/03/2006, 06:37 PM   #70
H20ENG
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Cuby,
Thanks for running some #s for us
The tubing with aluminum inside is termed Pex-Al-Pex and is used about the same as regular Pex, with slightly better heat transfer #s.
Re: Using copper; I think that in large installations, copper is not used because the earth will get heat soaked too quickly. IIRC the heat transfer coefficent of copper is about 400X better than Pex, but by using more, you are spreading the heat out along a much greater area, allowing the earth to absorb more of your waste heat.
Now in our comparatively small installations, the copper might be fine, and save us an awful lot of digging. I know that some geo heat pump installers are using copper in the earth as the condenser itself (full of refrigerant, not water). The hole for an average 4 ton unit is about 8' x 8' x4' deep IIRC. Thats more than the amount of heat we are trying to dump.
I know that Chicken, here on RC, used copper for his loop, but not sure if its up and running yet. His setup is 600g.

Falconut,
I believe I've read that you need 400- 600' of tubing per ton of cooling (12,000BTU) if that helps you any. Most commercial chillers for reef tanks are way under a ton. BUT in our application the temperature difference (DeltaT) is not as great as in a refrigeration system like a geothermal heat pump. So you will need more tubing to get the same result, since the heat will not transfer as quickly. (REAL engineers, is this correct? I dont want to be blowing smoke )


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Unread 05/03/2006, 06:37 PM   #71
douggiestyle
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Quote:
Originally posted by falconut
Cuby2K - BeanAnimal was the person who came up with the critters in the pipe thought. Which is a very great point. Also, why is a expansion tank needed? Won't this now allow evaporation?

douggiestyle - Can I simply use this for my heat exchanger piping? And how can I tell if 3' is enough?

http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...gng.0&MID=9876

I'm assuming that I should be able to use the 1/2" Sch. 40 PVC for the entire loop (including the buried pipe) and just connect to the 1/2" ss gas line connector for the exchanger.

Again, does anybody know the formula or where I can determine how much of the buried pipe and how much of the gas line will be good enough to cool? I would hate to do all this work and find out that I didn't install enough pipe.
i would look around first. my lhs (local hardware store) sells 1/2" x 6'. longer may be available. we only stock 4'


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Unread 05/03/2006, 06:41 PM   #72
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expansion tank for sure and a bleeder valve. if using closed loop. which i have to agree, for the long term would be best.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 07:11 PM   #73
Barto
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Quote:
Originally posted by falconut
Can I simply use this for my heat exchanger piping? And how can I tell if 3' is enough?
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...gng.0&MID=9876
and just connect to the 1/2" ss gas line connector for the exchanger.
There is a "roll length" CSST (Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing) gas line. As far as I know all the mfgrs require training & certification to use it. I needed to do that for the brand I use at work. More than likely anyone can get a section with fittings attached from their plumber. There are several mfgrs, link to two are below. This way you can have a corrugated heat exchanger whatever length you want with no intermediate connections, just the two end terminations.

http://www.wardflex.com/
http://www.gastite.com/engspecs.php?...t&idlink=link4


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Unread 05/03/2006, 08:21 PM   #74
douggiestyle
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an example for the slow water vs fast water is this.

have you ever been in a cold pool? what happens when you stop moving? you feel warmer. that is because convection of heat has slowed down. faster movement will strip your body of heat more quickly. this works the same as the water flowing through the system. i own a frig that has a feature called "turbo cool" all it does is blow a fan 100% of the time at 100% power. chills a case of beer quickly.

also it is always a transfer of heat. so do not confuse this with a fan blowing on you on a hot day (above 98.6 apx.). if it were not for evaporative cooling (perspiration) you would actually get hotter more quickly.


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Unread 05/03/2006, 08:25 PM   #75
douggiestyle
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigSkyBart
There is a "roll length" CSST (Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing) gas line. As far as I know all the mfgrs require training & certification to use it. I needed to do that for the brand I use at work. More than likely anyone can get a section with fittings attached from their plumber. There are several mfgrs, link to two are below. This way you can have a corrugated heat exchanger whatever length you want with no intermediate connections, just the two end terminations.

http://www.wardflex.com/
http://www.gastite.com/engspecs.php?...t&idlink=link4
i was told once that some areas in the country were allowing "csst" for in wall construction? this is the only other time its been mentioned to me. very cool. is the product you have seen coated?

sorry, some how i missed your link


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