ICH, Cupramine, Salinity & Temp?

[yachtdr22]

Greetings and Howdy!
Tangs (Purple, Achillies, Blonde) in 75gal QT, Achillies staring to show a few small minor white dots on fins. Current temp 80', salinity 35ppm
All are eating well (frozen mysis, brine soaked w/ Garlic, Selcon & Zoe)

I would like to start a Cupramine treatment but have not found (although I know they are here somewhere)..

Should I reduce the salinity and to what level.... (as checked w/ Refract & pinpoint PPM)
Should I keep the temp the same?

There is currently 15lbs of Liverock in the tank and 3, 4" PVC Pieces.
There are currently in with the tangs, 1) Lamrick Angle, 3) antheas.

I will remove the liverock and get some additional PVC as I understand that the LR can absorb Copper.

The QT, soon to be Hospital tank has a Bioball sump & Skimmer

Ammonia & NO2 Control... Prime ... How much can I dose?
How often should I do a water change vs dosing Prime?


Thanks all!

Drew

[crissie]

This shoul contain all the info that you need.

[yachtdr22]

Originally Posted by crissie

This shoul contain all the info that you need.

Hi crissie,
Thanks for the quick reply....
I respect Steve and all he does, but have tried TTM & Hypo before..

My last bought of Ich didnt go so well.
Rookie dumb A@@ mistake of Hippo, Yellow & sailfin in a 125 with NO QT....

got all the swimmers in the HT, went hypo, didnt work, then I tried the TTM.. that didnt work... had to go copper, by that time i had lost almost everyone...
DT spent 14 weeks fallow....

I am just gonna go the copper method this time....

SMILE!
Drew

[crissie]

Isn't there a guide to the copper method on there?

[yachtdr22]

Originally Posted by crissie

Isn't there a guide to the copper method on there?

I saw a general reference to copper, but not the specifics, however, it has been a long night!
if you see it, please smack me with it!

:-)

[crissie]

Nope, you're right, just a couple of mentions.

Hopefully someone who has used copper before will spot your thread!

[snorvich]

We do not have a guide for copper because it varies by vendor and we do not really want to suggest only one vendor is better. In general, copper should be brought to therapeutic dose slowly rather than immediately, and the test kit provided by the vendor that supplied the copper should be used. Do not use a dechlorinator or ammonia neutralizer when using copper. Treat for 4 weeks.

[snorvich]

For cupramine, the instructions may be a bit fuzzy. Generally folks here feel that the 0.5mg/l dose they recommend is too high and too aggressive. Try dosing at 0.35-0.40 and keep it there for the 4 week period. Also ramp up the dose slowly over 5-7 days to give the fish time to acclimate better. Also, remember that dissolved oxygen is inversely proportional to tank temperature, so lowering temperature slowly from 80F down to 76F would be desirable as it will give fish respiratory relief.

[snorvich]

By the way, the reason I recommend tank transfer above all other treatments for ich (cryptocaryon irritans) is because of the nature of the life cycle. The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish and that is what you see symptomatically when you see "salt sprinkled on the fish". After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. The dropping off of the trophont is relatively predictable from a time perspective. However neither the protomont not trophont is affected by copper.

This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. This too is a relatively predictable time period but again this stage is unaffected by copper or chloroquinine phosphate.

Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. As a consequence, this explains the exponentially increasing effect of ich in a closed system such as our aquaria. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days in general, but the longest known period in the marine biology literature is 72 days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. However this illustrates why ich seems to disappear even though it is still present in the tank.

After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. This is also the only portion of the life cycle that is vulnerable to copper, chloroquine phosphate or hyposalinity.

They prefer to seek out the skin and gill tissue, then transform into trophonts, and begin the process all over again. What this means is that when your tank is infected, you can actually see symptoms during a very small part of the life cycle, and it why your tank is infected even though your fish are resistant. It will also explain why symptoms come and go.

[crissie]

That's interesting Snorvich, in what way does temperature affect the trophont stage?

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by crissie

That's interesting Snorvich, in what way does temperature affect the trophont stage?

It may or may not in the marine version (cryptocaryon irritans), in the fresh water version (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) raising temperature accelerates the life cycle at the cost of lower dissolved oxygen. But keep in mind that there are multiple strains of marine ich, some of which are not affected by lower salinity. We suspect that the protomont stage develops slower as temperature lowers but there is no literature measurement of this.

[yachtdr22]

Originally Posted by snorvich

For cupramine, the instructions may be a bit fuzzy. Generally folks here feel that the 0.5mg/l dose they recommend is too high and too aggressive. Try dosing at 0.35-0.40 and keep it there for the 4 week period. Also ramp up the dose slowly over 5-7 days to give the fish time to acclimate better. Also, remember that dissolved oxygen is inversely proportional to tank temperature, so lowering temperature slowly from 80F down to 76F would be desirable as it will give fish respiratory relief.

Hi Steve,
Thanks for your reply..
What would you recommend the salinity be for the Cupramine @ 76' ?

in 2012 I tried the TTM that didnt go so well. I think there were some of us that had a a "Super Ich" that didnt respond to Hypo or TTM.

Thanks again steve!

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by yachtdr22

Hi Steve,
Thanks for your reply..
What would you recommend the salinity be for the Cupramine @ 76' ?

in 2012 I tried the TTM that didnt go so well. I think there were some of us that had a a "Super Ich" that didnt respond to Hypo or TTM.

Thanks again steve!

Generally, if you have the option to set it (going down is easy on the fish, going up is difficult), I would shoot for the 1.021-1.025 range.

[mkjohnson1990]

Hey, I am from Corpus Christi also and am currently using cupramine on my fish. I believe I bought the last bottle Petco had...

Also, today marks week 2 of my fish in Cupramine in my hospital tank. I am doing half recommended dosage for four weeks (as prescribed by one of the LFS). Fish all seem to be doing well, although my hippo tang (the one who was most infected) seems to still have welts that will not go away although she is still eating and active. I don't want to recommend anything to you, but rather let you know how I am doing it...

Day 1 I put 8 drops per 10 gal instead of the recommended 16 drops of cupramine, day 2 I repeated to bring the levels up to around 0.25ppm. I have only done one water change on it, and recommend the Ammonia Alert Badge, as it is one of the few ways to test the ammonia levels in the tank. I like the idea of lowering the temp a bit as suggested here. Mine is currently 78' but I am thinking i should lower to 76' after reading the above posts. Any other questions, just ask!

[yachtdr22]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Generally, if you have the option to set it (going down is easy on the fish, going up is difficult), I would shoot for the 1.021-1.025 range.

thanks steve,

Can you pretty please double check my math....

My system volume is 81 gal.
i was going to dose to .25 mg/L (final level)
I wanted to get there in 3 doses over 5 days (Dose today, Tues, Thurs)
My math shows 1.27ml each dose ??

Thank you sir!

[yachtdr22]

Originally Posted by mkjohnson1990

Hey, I am from Corpus Christi also and am currently using cupramine on my fish. I believe I bought the last bottle Petco had...

Also, today marks week 2 of my fish in Cupramine in my hospital tank. I am doing half recommended dosage for four weeks (as prescribed by one of the LFS). Fish all seem to be doing well, although my hippo tang (the one who was most infected) seems to still have welts that will not go away although she is still eating and active. I don't want to recommend anything to you, but rather let you know how I am doing it...

Day 1 I put 8 drops per 10 gal instead of the recommended 16 drops of cupramine, day 2 I repeated to bring the levels up to around 0.25ppm. I have only done one water change on it, and recommend the Ammonia Alert Badge, as it is one of the few ways to test the ammonia levels in the tank. I like the idea of lowering the temp a bit as suggested here. Mine is currently 78' but I am thinking i should lower to 76' after reading the above posts. Any other questions, just ask!

Hello MK..
Sorry to hear of your needs for this info as well!
I have 2 QTs going.. (now 1 QT =55gal , 1 HT = 75gal) Have the alert badges on both.
I am feeding all as much as they want, 10 gal w/c every other day.
One of the other tips is garlic... I add garlic, Zoe & Selcon to my frozen food mixture of brine & mysis..
its all good as long as they are eatting!

we have to have show and tell at some point!
Good luck
Drew

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by yachtdr22

thanks steve,

Can you pretty please double check my math....

My system volume is 81 gal.
i was going to dose to .25 mg/L (final level)
I wanted to get there in 3 doses over 5 days (Dose today, Tues, Thurs)
My math shows 1.27ml each dose ??

Thank you sir!

1 gallon is 3.78541 liters
81 gallons = 306.6 liters
306.6 liters * 0.25 = 76.65mg
3 doses = 25.55 mg per dose

Math is not my thing . . .

[mkjohnson1990]

Originally Posted by yachtdr22

Hello MK..
Sorry to hear of your needs for this info as well!
I have 2 QTs going.. (now 1 QT =55gal , 1 HT = 75gal) Have the alert badges on both.
I am feeding all as much as they want, 10 gal w/c every other day.
One of the other tips is garlic... I add garlic, Zoe & Selcon to my frozen food mixture of brine & mysis..
its all good as long as they are eatting!

we have to have show and tell at some point!
Good luck
Drew

I am using the garlic xtreme and the fish seem to love it. I am not convinced it "soaks" into the brine shimp as well so I have been dripping it on flake food to feed supplementary to them. Not to get off the topic but I checked out your tank in your signature thread, have to say it is about as slick as can be! I started my own thread about the hippo tang, if anyone helps on that subject it may help you out as well:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2391031

[yachtdr22]

Originally Posted by snorvich

1 gallon is 3.78541 liters
81 gallons = 306.6 liters
306.6 liters * 0.25 = 76.65mg
3 doses = 25.55 mg per dose

Math is not my thing . . .

Thanks steve....

I had my socks and shoes off/.... counting on my toes.. thats where my math went bad...

[yachtdr22]

Originally Posted by snorvich

1 gallon is 3.78541 liters
81 gallons = 306.6 liters
306.6 liters * 0.25 = 76.65mg
3 doses = 25.55 mg per dose

Math is not my thing . . .

.um....
what does that make the liquid amount? mg per dose vs ml?

i feel like a dunce today

[yachtdr22]

Originally Posted by mkjohnson1990

I am using the garlic xtreme and the fish seem to love it. I am not convinced it "soaks" into the brine shimp as well so I have been dripping it on flake food to feed supplementary to them. Not to get off the topic but I checked out your tank in your signature thread, have to say it is about as slick as can be! I started my own thread about the hippo tang, if anyone helps on that subject it may help you out as well:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2391031

if your at week w/ copper, and everyone is clear except a few scars on the hippo, and they are all eating well.... keep the course, they will be fine

[crissie]

Originally Posted by yachtdr22

.um....
what does that make the liquid amount? mg per dose vs ml?

i feel like a dunce today

Now you're moving on to complex math! Dose it state whether mg is microgram or milligram?

[yachtdr22]

Copper dosing concentration is in mg/l
the dose is in mL

[crissie]

Okay (years ago a friend had mcg labelled as mg - very bad results!)

1ml = 1,000mg.

So you would be looking at 0.025 ml.

That seems a tiny amount.

[yachtdr22]

I keep coming up with needing to dose 1.27ml of Cupramine 3x to bring 81 gal to .25mg/L

i am hesitant to start until i get some confirmation on those #'s